PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXIII, Issue 5476, 15 October 1878, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Monday, October 14. Tho Hon. the Acting-Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. REPORTS, ETC. The Hon. Colonel !vK N N V - brought np tho report o£ the Local Bills Committee on the Wellington City Boundaries Bill. The report recommended that the Bill should be passed as amended, and with the alterations in the schedules iu accordance with the certified plan attached thereto. A report from tho Public Petitions Committee was also brought np and received. ‘ Some notices of motion were given j amongst them one by sir D. Bell, that he would ask the Government, —Whether it was true.that certain prisoners at Naaeby had been liberated contrary to the advice of tho magistrates, and if so, tho reasons why ? LEAVE OP ABSENCE. ‘ The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS moved,—That leave of absence be granted to the Hon. Mr. Reynolds on urgent private bnsiness, from tho 22nd inst., for the remainder of the session.— The Hon. Colonel Brett strongly opposed tho motion.—The Hon. Colonel Whitmore pointed ont that it was hoped that the Assembly would be prorogued on Tuesday week. Under tho circumstances, perhaps tha Hon. Mr. Reynolds would wish to withdraw his motion.—After some discussion the previous question was carried by 17 to 16. During tha discussion Captain Eraser said he would withdraw the motion of which he had given notice, for leave of absence to bo granted to himself. IIONOOSUI AND BAT OF ISLANDS. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved,—That copies of all letters, telegrams, and other papers relating to tha removal from his office of Mr. E. M. Williams, registration and returning officer for the electoral districts of Mongonui and the Bay of Islands, be laid before this Council. A misapprehension appeared to exist in Parliament as to the circumstances connected with this matter, and that misapprehension was repeated outside. In a journal which had the credit of being in the confidence of the Ministry, the Otago-Daily Times of the 4th October, he found a passage in which the opinion of the Native Affairs Committee was given in the following words : —“That the Government was justified in reqailing Mr. E. Williams, the brother of Mr, J. Williams, M.H.R., to resign Ins position of registration and returning officer for the electorate which his brother, Mr. J. Williams, represents in this House, and that iu all similar cases a similar course should bo pursued.” [The article will be found in full elsewhere.] Well, he thought the mouse was sufficiently ridiculous, but he also imagined that the raouni tain remained in its place. He begged to assure the hon. member representing the Go- , vorument that lie had no other motive in moving iu tho matter than to correct a misapprehension . on his part, and place on i record the (acts of this case. Ho was - not sure whether the honorable gentleman wouM give him credit for the absence of any factious or party purposes in this business—(laughter from Colonel Whitmore)— as he had on a former occasion accused him (Dr. pollen) of factious opposi'ion, because lie simply advised the Government not to sell a small piece of land st Timaru. Dr. Pollen proceeded to further explain the circumstance connected with the .Bay of Islands elector,.! roll, showing that two attempts had been made by a Mr. f undon to place a number of Maori names on the roll. On the firs- occasion he made an effort to get some 300 names placed on it, and not being successful, brought charges against the registration officer, which were entirely disproved before a commissioner app anted upon the recommendation of a committee of the Assembly. Mr. Luudon, however, nothing daunted, again attempted (this time bringing 400 names) to get these Maoris placed on the roll, and was successful through the extraordinary action of the Government in removing the registration officer the day , before tho Court sat. Dr. Pollen recapitulated the circumstances as previously published in those columns of the Court meeting and Mr. Tole sustaining the position that, as the registration officer had ' been dismissed, tho objection could not be sustained, &c. He concluded by ' laying tho newspaper containing the list of objectionson tho table (as requested by Colonel Whitmore). and moving the motion as above. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE very much regretted that Dr. Pollen had not chosen an earlier period of the season for a violent partisan attack. ■ Ho thought Dr. Pollen should confine himself to facts, not to what he called facts. Upon what grounds could he say that tha decision of a Revision Ceurt could be a final one on so important a question as that involved? In that wide district to object meant to strike off, and that was tho reason why Mr. Williams was dismissed. It was not iu human nature but that he should have been biassed in favor of his brother. Ho thought the newspaper produced by Dr. Pollen was an ample justification. He produced the original, telegram from Mr. Tole, which ran—“ Wired you ou Friday —Has Mr, Williams been advised to resign ?” and mentioned the report of the Public Petitions Committee, which, he slid, completely justified the Government. Ha knew that inju tice was intended to be done by these objections, and speaking of Mr. Lundon, ho knew nothing about him except that ho was being thrown under his nose continually by a prominent Opposition paper. The fact of the matter was it was a tribal dispute. The Williams’ interest in tho Bay of Islands District was strong ; so was . that of the other side, —llinc iUc. lachrymal. He gave great weight to the statement of Dr. Pollen that he had no other motive but to place the facts of this matter on record. Colonel Whitmore proceeded to illustrate tha affair further according to his lights. He repeated that there was no reflection on Mr. Williams, but it was unfortunate that ho was placed in a position where his opinions and feelings were on one' side, which would always leave him open to the suspicion of partiality. It being 4 o’clock, tho discussion was inter- ; rupted by tho calling on the Orders of the Day, LAND TaS BILL. The debate was resumed by the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse, who said that ho should vote for the second reading, not that ho approved of the Bill, but as a matter of expediency. He could not fail to regard the measure in an entirely different light to that of the Colonial Secretary. It had been stated that the 1 measure was brought forward iu accordance with the resolution of last session referring to the incidence of taxation. He i would undertake to Drove that the working classes did not bear a fair share of the burdens of taxation, and that the propertied classes did. The taxation of the colony was £1,424,000 ; stamps gave £151,000, which came from the propertied class. On articles of general consumption about three-quarters of a million was raised. This was borne by all alike. A family of five persons would pay, say, £2 10s. This gave a total of £225,000. It would appear, then, that £900,000 odd was .contributed by all classes alike. What proportion of this was paid by the working classes! For the purposes of argument, one-half might be taken as contributed by the working classes. Tho propertied classes, in addition to their fair 1-hqra of Customs, contributed no less a sum than £186,000. He wont on to show that expenditure meant contribution to the revenue —that you could not by a dress for ysur wife or bury your dead without contributing to the revenue. The statement made, that property did not contribute its fair share of taxation, was disgraceful. When ha heard that statement res echoed he' could not help thinking of Carlyle’s words, “England is inhabited by ,thirty mil-

llous-of -people, and tbo majority of them are fooW MJ The nonsense talked about. the unearned increment fairly astonished him. After some general remark' ■*, Mr., Waterhouse said it. wah a mistake to »*sn *le out .a particular class for taxation. 7'hen money invested in laud was there sunk. Me instanced the fact that he had brought with him a largo >*um of money wldhh was aJI spent on his laud, and, indeed, his difficulty, like that of many persons similarly situated, had been to keep out of debt. Speaking of the Beer Tax Bill, ho said this was not the first time that beer had triumphed over brains. He thought the abandonment o£ that JUU. by the Government was worse than a crime—it was a mistake. The hon. gentleman concluded .by saying in impassioned wort Is that though the logical sequence of his speech would he that ho should vote against the Bill, he would not do so ; for the appeal would be from a constituency badly informed to one as bad. Therefore he should, on the grounds of expediency, vote for the second reading, Mr. Waterhouse resumed his seat amid cheeera. The Hon. GEORGK BUCKLEY criticised the BUL goiu' into figures to show the share of taxation which the different classes boro. He reviewed the proposals of the Treasurer-at length, gen- rally condemning them. Had the poliev of 1870 (Sir Julius Vogel's) been adhered to, this tax would never have been re* quired.’ He was opposed to exemptions under £SOO. The tax was class legislation. The tendency now was to govern hy Urdera-ia-Council, and in a little while all that would bo left for the Assembly would be to meet for a week or so, and p;ws tho Appropriation Bill. He thought; the Beer Tax Bill and the Companies Duties Bill had met with a deserved fate. With more prudence in finance this tax might have been avoided. But it was too late now, and he should not oppose the second reading. Sir DILLON" BELL thought from tho state

of the House that but Uttle interest was taken in the, question. He was not going to speak. for Hansard ; for his part ho wished it was abolished. He was not for a moment speaking against the reporters ; their work was admirably done, hut what good purpose did it serve ? None. Speaking of the press of business at the end of the. session, there were a number of important measures coming before them, ono to dispose of seven or eight millions of money,—yet this Bill, dealing with such large interests, using up our last vestige of credit, would come up on Friday night simply to be registered, as used to be done in the Parliaments of France. He knew that a strong feeling existed that the second Chamber should simply carry out the views of the House of Representatives in financial matters ; but they might, consider themselves as to some extent representing the whole country. He knew of nothing so fatal as the facilities which bud been possessed by this country in borrowing money. The reason he would support the second reading was that it was necessary to resort to direct taxation to enable us to pay our way. He thought that the Treasurer’s estimates for the present year would be justified ; but in order to arrive at a fair purview of the state of our finance it was absolutely necessary that we should separate the revenue from taxation from that from extraneous sources. The revenue from taxation was in round numbers £1,500,060 ; in the shape of receipts for services rendered it was £353,000. All this latter sum was eaten up, and more than eaten ’up by expenditure on the departments in which it was raised. A total loss of £200,000 had been incurred in the working of the departments during the past year. Sir D, Bell went into figures to prove that to meet an expenditure of two and a half millions they really only had one million of revenue. The surplus revenue from railways ought to bo devoted to tb© extension of the railway system. The people of this colony had to learn by the pressure ot the taxgatherer every quarter or every half-year, that they should confine their expenditure to what could bo raised in the year. Speaking of the exemptions, he altogether disapproved of the exemption under, £SOO, which would be the source of future trouble. As to the unearned increment, he thought that the country would be grateful to Mr. Waterhouse for his remarks on that point. He instanced a case tvhero a man bought land for £20,000, sold it for £60,000 to another man, who immediately cut

it up and sold it to a number of persons. Who got tho benefit of the unearned increment on that land? . He did not care one single straw for the rights of the runholders ; he claimed no privilege for the squatters whatever ; bat the whole scheme and theory this BUI was, that the owner of the land should pay, aud not the tenant. %v hy then should the pastoral tenant he placed in a different position from any other ? The railways and other public works had not been for the benefit of the ruuholders ; quite the contrary The effect of the system had been disastrous to .che runholders. However, if they had lost jn on© way, they had gained in another ; but it was os freeholders, not as squatters, that they received any-benefit. The bon. gentleman spoke at great length, traversing the whole subject, and resumed his seat amid applause. Tho Hon.. Mr. HALL was sorry that the Government benches nhould be entirely vacant on so import mt an occasion. Sp akiug to tho question, he thought the ordinary revenue should bfc ra tde to meet the ordinary expenditure. But, looking to the facts of the situation, more revenue must be raised. The Government were blinding the country by helping the revenue with 1 »rge slices of the Land Fund.'" The supply from that source must not be relied on for long. (Hear, bear.) Ho did not think the existing taxation was oppressive on , the working classes, comparing their receipts with their taxation. He approved of a property tax,; but thought the Government most unwise in sacrificing the Customs revenue- While he agreed,with a property tax he .thought it should be put on ad property. Land was held in this country as 1 a mere comproperty, and the tax would not fall on those who would reap the' most benefit from tho land. He would like to see the tax extended to incomes, and he thought the more you taxed spirits the better. Generally, he did not th'nk the Customs duties in this colony at all excessive. He regretted extremely that the Government proposed to borrow such enormous and unjustifiable amounts for public works. He would not complain of the wrongs of Canterbury, but he must speak of the condition of the Canterbury Lunatic Asylum, which was a disgrace to any community; and the same* might be said of tho gaols. - But he would vote for the Bill, much aii he disapproved of it, and many as were the objections to It. Ho- thought the exemptions Under £SOO simply putin to gain popularity; nor did he approve of the improvement exemptions, which were calculated on an unfair basis Then were not the Maori exemptions unjust, —why cuddle the natives ? It would tend to raise up a feeling against them. Referring to the position of tbe tenants of tho Crown, why should they he made topay forth© very improvements which tended to dispossess them. He thought the people of the country would in tho long run admit that a great wrong was being done. He would conclude by saying that he weald vote for tho second reading of the Bill with all its defects, because they could hot remedy them, and because they could not tend it back at this period of the session with any hope of its being amended elsewhere. v-The Hod. Mr. PEACOCK would oppose tho second reading. Hr. Grace had said this Bill was a u concession to ignorant public opinion,” That public had been fomented by a late stumping tour. Ho would advocate tho lessening of expenditure, and not the increase of taxation: The «mall holdings had been most benefited; why, then, tho exemptions ? This was essentially a da-** tax, and as such would be detrimental to the best interests of the. country,;' He did not believe tho working men desired lb, for they well knew that they got employment by money being expended on property.* The U'uh Mr. HOLMES was much gratified by one sentiment in the various speeches—that the owners of estates were not opposed to direct .taxation. They were not, but were prepared to bear their fair share of such taxation. Ho would advocate a tax on every description of property. Ho believed that the writings and speeches* of Sir Julius Vogel di more for the successful issue of the late loan than'any other 'circumstance. In tho successful floating of that loan the Government bad been most fortunate. Tho supply of money ; <f»om Home, to bo invested ia laud here/ mast ho looked .upon as a flimiuLhing sum for ; the future. Ho disapproved of the exemptions under £SOO, This wasa class tax. then, could'tho Colonial Secretary say itwaa a just one? , The tax to be imposed should have been an income and property tax, with $, £ 150 limit. Ho instanced several cases where men in England' drew large incomes' fr'om the colony and did not pay a single penny to the revenue. < ■ 'The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON though it was not the present Government who wore entirely to blame for this increased taxation. Ho was opposed to the Bill, bu like other hon. gentlewould not vote against tho second rcadmg,- Tim tax’ should have been' general ???. B P«oial. He v/ould go as far as approving of tfie doing away with all Customs duties and taxing property, but thou ho would

have the tax on all property, and not exclusively «m land. He could hud uo justification whatever for taxing the Canterbury and , tago leaseholders. Speaking,of tho working classes, ho thought there were no poor man iu the country, and he was of opinion that those chases would he perfectly wil.ing to bo their f ar share of t ixation. ho Mon. Colonel Will TMORE, in reply, said that tho Financial Statement of thin Government was the first honest-oua, that had been made for years, and tho only intelligible one. Ho agreed with what Mr. Hall had said about the lunatic asylums and; gaols; but it was not the fault of the General, but of tho Provincial Governments. There was a great deal to bo said iu favor of the Crown tenants. Me admitted that in principle the natives should be taxed, but;.in practice it could not bo done. Ho would not answer all the objections at that late hour, as ho would have an opportunity of speaking on another Bill. Speaking of tho Beer Bill, he would ju*fc say that the Government had thiovvn over a little cargo to lighten tho ship, which would eventually come safely into port. The second reading was then agreed to on the voices. rKIENDLY SOCIETIES MIX. The am mlments made by tho Mouse of Representative* in tin* measure were agreed to. DANGEROUS GOODS ACT. The amendments made iu this Bill by the other Chamber were also agreed to, and several messages having been read from tho House of Representatives. The Council then ll a m.) adjourned.

1 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, c Monday, October 14. , Tho Speaker took the chair at 7.30 p.m. [ PETITIONS, Petitions were presented by Messrs. Taiaroa, i J. C. Brown, and Joyce, i NOTICES Of MOTION. : Notices of motion were given by Messrs, i Gisborne, 'McLean, Gibbs, Barton, Bowen, • Stevens, Was on, Pyke, Morris, and Manders. REPORTS. Mr. CURTIS brought up reports from the Waste Lunds Committee, which were read and laid on the table. Mr. O’RORKB brought up reuorts from the Joint Committee on Bills, which were read. Mr. BRYCE brought up reports from the Native Affairs Committee, which wore referred td the Government. PAPERS. Papers were laid on the table by the Hon. Sir George Grey, including a return with reference to the Hinemoa, which was ordered to bo printed. PETITION OP DONALD CAMERON. On the motion of Mr. Baref, it was resolved that copies of the evidence taken on this petition be laid ‘in the table. MR. BARTON AND THE JUDGES. Mr, BARTON asked the Minister of Justice,— Whether it would be convenient for the Government to allow him an opportunity of answering Hr. Justice Richmond’s letter by moving a motion prior to the Hou e going into Committee of Supply. The Hon. Mr. SHEEHAN replied that he would meet the request of the hon. member by arranging that the House should go into Committee of Supply as soon as poa-ible after halfpast seen on Friday evening next. THE NATIVE MEETINGS. Mr. ROLLESTON desired 'to ask the Premier, without notice, whether the reports of the meetings at Waitara and Waikato laid on the table were authorised and authentic ? The Hon. Sir GEORGE GREY said the hon. member had better put a notice on the paper. Mr. ROLLESTON did so accordingly. TRUST ESTATFS. The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE asked the Government, —(I.' Whether they are satisfied that there has not been a fulfilment of the trusts of several educational and other trust estates, held directly under grant from the Crown upon special trusts for religions, educational, or charitable purposes? (2) Whether the Government will inform thi* House what course they propose to take with reference to those trust estates so held directly under Crown grant, the special trusts of which have not been fulfilled ? The Hon. Sir GEORGE GREY replied that the Government were not altogether satisfied in all cases. He believed the House had been satisfied iu every case iu which the Government had been satisfied. There were case* iu which endow meats had disappeared, and in other instances the endowments had been, productive of nothing. With regard to the second part ef the question, he might say that every case would bo treated on its merits, bub it would be impossible to lay down any fixed line of procedure. The Hou. Mr. GISBORNE: Will the Government give the matter their consideration during th& recess ? The Hon. Sir GEORGE GREY : The Government aro giving their attention to it. MATHIAS AND ENSOR. Mr. CURTIS aked the Government,—lf they will take steps to carry out the recommendation of the Waste Lands Committee in the matter of the petition of Mathias and Ensor ? The Hon. Mr. STOUT thought it would be better for the hon. member to give notice of motion for the adoption of the report. D. ANDEKfiON. Mr. CURTIS asked the Government, —If they will take steps to carry out the recommendation of tho Waste Lands Committee in the matter of the petition of D. Anderson ? The Hon. Mr. STOU V gave a similar reply to this question, SOUTHLAND WASTE LANDS. Mr. FELD WICK asked the Minister of Lands, —(1) Tho name of the officer who, on the waste lands map of Southland, colored as a reserve, land that had not been reserved ? (2) Whether he has taken steps to prevent similar practices or accidents in future ? (3) Whether ho will cause careful comparison to be made between the written or printed records and descriptions of reserves made and tho maps, in order to make sure that no portions of the maps, other than the one referred to in question No. 1, are wrongly colored? The Hon. Mr. STOUT staid he bad communicated by telegram with the Waste Lauds Board, and received a reply to the effect that the map had been discolored inadvertently, but the Board was quite satisfied with the price which bad been obtained for tho land—£2 instead of £l. The land was pastoral land, and was three miles a\vay from tho nearest railway station.

TELEGRAMS TO MAORIS, Captain RUSSELL asked the Minister for Public Works, —What steps ho has taken to give effect to the following telegram, sent on 7th September, 1878, by the Premier to two native chiefs, Toka and Hamana, Wairoa : “ Sir George Grey has consented that the Government shall make an entrance to the Wairoa River, so that vessels can go in and out, as applied for in your telegram of 28th August.—G. Gr.Ey.” The Hon. Mr. MAC AN DREW said hewould lay on the table copies of the telegrams to show that the honorable member had been imposed upon. NAPIER A»D KOPOA RAILWAY. Captain RUSSELL asked the Minister for Public Works,—lf he hau promised that a. railway station shall be erected on the Napier and Kopua lino of railway, at a place called Awatoto ; and, if so, why that situation has been chosen instead of Tareha’s Bridge ? The Hon. Mr. MACANDEKW said he was not aware of the relative merits of these two places. A petition had been received from several persons asking that a railway station might be erected at Awatoto, and the matter was under consideration. KAKADKAKA BLOCK. Captain MOR BIS asked the Premier, —If he will lay before this House all correspondence between the late Government and Mr. A. if. Hardy, relative to the Rakaukaka Block, Patotahi, Poverty Bay ? Sir GEORGE GREY replied that the Goverumeut had no objection to lay the correspondence on the table. KATIKATX BLOCK, Captain MORRIS asked the Colonial Treasurer, —Why the 20 per cent on the £SOOO paid by Mr. Veaey Stewart last December, for the Katikati Block, has not been paid to the credit of the Tauranga County fund ? The Hon. Mr. BALLA’NCE said the £SOOO was paid in London or. the 21st December. The Financial Arrange.meats Act was not in force until January. '’The money was paid before the Act came hate force, and 1 therefore went to the Auoklan/l Waste Lands Board. BIiOGnVM AND CO. Mr. WAKEFIELD asked the Government, —(I) What is the -cause of the delay in giving to Messrs. Brogdim the necessary permission to commence ley-al proceedings against the Crown ? (2) Wh ether the Government intend to give the pernv .salon ; and, if so, when they will do so ? The Hon. Mrr. STOUT replied that the Government were perfectly willing to have the case decided by a, single suit, and would place no obstacle in the way of this being done, MANCOKOI AMD BAY OB’ ISLANDS ELECTORAL ' . BILL. . Sir EOBEKT DOUGLAS was proceeding

to ftddrcW thoTTouse in asking leave to intro(luce this Bill-)- ,; • The Hon. Mr. SHEEHAN said t|je Government -had no objection to the/ formal, motion for leave to -introduce this Bid, but . they only consented on the the debate would be taken on the second reading of the Bill. r The Hon. the SPEAKER pointed out that alii those motions for leave to introduce Bills were : placed in their present ■ position o a the paper on the taoit understanding that they would be unopposed at this stage. After a short discussion, leave was given to bring in tho Bill, which was read a first time, and tho sec.ond rending fixed for Wednesday. COPYRIGHTS^ On tho motion of .the Hou.-Mr. Sheehan, leave was given to introduce a Bill to amend the Fine Arts Copyright Act, 1877, which was read a first time, and the second reading fixed for Thursday next.. - NATIVE LAND PURCHASES. On the motion of the Hou. Mr. Sheehan, leave was given to introduce a Bill to amend the Government Native Land Purchases Act, 1877, whicu was read a fir-t time, and the second reading fixed for Thursday next. DUNSTvN HOSPITAL. Mr. PYKE moved for leave to introduce a Bill to endow' the Dnnatau hospital. Mr. SAUNuERS said the question had been disposed of by the rejection of similar Bills on the la-t sitting day, and he therefore bogged to move tho previous question. After a short disen-sion, the previous question was carried by 51 to 15. END OP THE SESSION. Sir GEORGE GREY said that the work of tho session was so far advanced that the Government believed the House could be prorogued to-morrow week. If lion, members gave their assistance he had no doubt the thing could be very ea-dly done. (Hear, hear.) COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. , The Hou. Mr. BALLANGE moved that the House do resolve itself into Committee of Supply. Mr. ORMOND moved, That the sum proposed as tho vote for school buildings is in-adequate,-and this House is of opinion a sufficient sum sbpuld be provided to insure due provision for school buildings throughout the colony. - After a short discussion, Mr. Ormond withdrew his motion, on the understanding that the Colonial .Treasurer would carry out his promise to find the money which the Education Boards said was requisite for school buildings, namely, £200,000. r • Mr. McMINN withdrew a resolution standing in his name with regard to the report, of the Public Petitions Committee on the petition of James Lahey, In committee, tho. following items were passed:—Native Department: salarls and contingencies, £16,887 ss. ; native schools, £14,5 *0; Native Lands Frauds Prevention Act, 1870, £320 ; Wafrarapa 5 per cent. Land Purchase Account, £150;-total, £31,875 6s. Militia and volunteers, £24,678 12s. ; constabulary and police, £137,774 10s.; railways, £487,203 2s. lOd. Piogress was reported, with leave given to sit again next day. The House rose at 2 a.m.