PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5200, 21 November 1877, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, November 20. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at halfpast two o’clock. Before proceeding to the business of the day the Hon. Colonel Whitmore apologised to the Council for not having yesterday informed them that his Excellency the Governor had been pleased to appoint the Hol. Haani Nahe to a seat in the Executive Council. He begged to assure the Council that the fact had escaped his memory, otherwise he should have informed them of it. PAPERS AND RETURNS. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE laid on the table certain papers which had been asked for on the previous day, including the report of the commission appointed to inquire into matters relating tn the High School, Dunedin. The Hon. Sir P. D. BELL asked Colonel Whitmore how it happened that a precis of this report had been already published in Dunedin? Whitmore explained that these papers were to have been laid on the table of the House of Representatives on the evening of Friday last. One of the Ministers was asked if a precis might be telegraphed down to Dunedin during the afternoon of that day, and gave permission for such precis to he sent, fully believing that before it could be made use of by the Press it would have become public property by being laid on the table of the House. Unfortunately, the precis was telegraphed, but the House of llepesentatives did not sit in the evening, having adjourned from the afternoon sitting till the Monday following. It was in this way that the report, or at least a precis of it, had been published by the Dunedin Press on Saturday last. MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. The Hon. Dr. MEN ZIPS, by permission, moved without notice, and it was agreed to, — That the' time for bringing up the report of the Government Building Water Supply Committee be extended for fourteen days, for the purpose of obtaining the report of the engineer who had been taking the water levels. The Hou. Colonel B HE I'T moved, by permission, without notice, and it was agreed to, —That the hon. Erne-t Gray have two days’ leave of absence beyond the time which had been originally granted to him. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, by permi-sion, moved without notice, and it was agreed to, — That the time for bringing up the report of the Native Reserves Amendment Bill Committee be extended for a fortnight. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. The Hon. the SPEAKER drew the attention of the Council to the fact that the following hon. members had already overstayed their leave of absence:—The Hon. R. Campbell, the Hon. Mr. Acland, and the Hou. Mr. Edwards. QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE. The Hon. Sir P. D. BELL asked the Hon. Colonel Whitmore, without notice,—Whether it was the fact, as stated in an evening paper last night, that a reserve of some 380,000 acres had been set aside for the Strath-Taieri railway? In reply, the Hon. Colonel Whitmore stated that it was impossible such a reserve could have been made. He supposed the reserve referred to was one proposed by the Waste Lands Board of Otago. He considered this was a question that ought not to have been asked without notice being given. MESSAGES. A message was received from theHouseof Represent tives granting permission to the Hons. Messrs. Reid and McLean and Mr. Shrimski to attend and give evidence before the Public Petitions Committee ou the case of Robert Allan. A message was received to the effect that the House of Representatives had given permission to the Hon. Mr. McLean and Mr. Montgomery to attend and give evidence before the select committee on the Strath-Taieri and Clyde Railway and other railway Bills. NOTICE OF MOTION. The Hon. Sir P. D. BELL gave notice that next sitting day he should ask the Hon. Colonel Whitmore, whether the Government had made a reserve of 380,000 acres (or the purpose of constructing the Strath-Taieri and Clyde Railway, and if not, whether they intended to make such a reserve ? EDUCATION BILL. This Bill was read a third time and passed, and a message to that effect ordered to be transmitted to the House of Representatives. EDUCATION RESERVES BILL. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE moved, and it was agreed to,—That this Council doth not insi-t on its amendments in the Education Reserves Bill, iu which the House of Representatives disagree, and that it doth concur in the alterations suggested by the House of Representatives. FISH PROTECTION BILL. This Bill was read a second time, and on the motion of the Hon. Colonel Whitmore, its committal was made an order of the day for Thursday next. OTHER BILLS. The Manawatu Land Orders Bill, the Port Chalmers Compensation Bill, and the Public Health Act Amendment Bill were further considered iu committee, reported to the Council with amendments, and, on the motion of the Hon. Colonel Whitmore, ordered to be read a third time next sitting day. The Public Reserves. Bill and the District Railways Bill were further considered in committee, when progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again ou Thursday next. The remaining orders of the day were discharged from the Order Paper and fixed for future dates. The Council theu (at 9.45 p.m.) adjourned till the usual hour next day. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, Nonember 20. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Sheehan, leave of absence was granted to Mr. Pyke for ten days. COALFIELDS. Mr. KENNEDY asked the Government,— Whether they will appoint a Royal Commission to ascertain, during the recess, the progress being made towards developing the coalfields at Westport and Greymouth ; the quantity and quality of coal each mine in operation is capable of producing weekly ; the prospect of such coal being brought into successful competition with imported coal throughout the colony, and the most effectual and immediate means of accomplishing that object; and if so, it the report of such commission will be laid before this House next session ? The Hon. Mr. MACANDREW replied that the Government fully recognised tho importance of the subject, and would appoint a commission during the recess. They would also consider whether the inquiry should extend to all coalfields in the colony. CANTERBURY SURVEYS. Mr. MONTGOMERY asked the Minister of Lauds, —If he will state what increase (if any) has been made in the number of surveyors employed by Government iu the provincial district of Canterbury since the 13th September last, and the total number at present employed ; also, if he will inform the House at what date the Chief Surveyor expects to complete tho surrey of tho land already purchased from the Crown in that district, and not yet surveyed I The Hon,Mr. MACANDREW replied that since tH> 13th September seven fresh appointments had beeu made. At present there were twenty-seven surveyors employed in the district, exclusive of the Chief Surveyor, the Inspector ;of Surveys, and three others. The Chief Surveyor said that it would take two years to complete the surveys. At present there were 720,000 acres in course of survey, and the Government were desirous of obtaining more surveyors. ... SCHOOL OF MINES. Mr. BARPP asked' the Premier, —If the Government intend to institute any further inquiries in connection with the proposed establishment of a School of Mines ? Tho Hon. Mr. MAC AN DREW said he hoped to be able to give information on the

subject before the close of the session. They were now in communication with the School of Mines in Melbourne. SUPPLY. The Hon. Mr. LARNACH before going into committee wished to correct an error which had occurred in the Financial Statement in reference to land receipts, which were set down at £1,110,000. It should have been £ 1,100,000. The Government intended to take the Land Fund from the Ist January next. The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE repeated the question which he asked last night iu regard to the views of the Government on the Land Bill. He thought he would have got an answer then had an hon. gentleman not taken upon himself to reply for the Ministry. The Hon. Mr. SHEEHAN stated the Government had no desire to burke the Laud Bill. But they had now taken a new departure, and the men who governed this country in the future must do so on the basis of a common land fund. 1 he whole Bill would have to be revised; but before doing so it would be necessary to know the views of the House on the Financial Statement. No harm would come to the Bill in the. meantime, and if the hon. gentlemen opposite were stroug enough to ag un resume office, they would still find the Bill on the Order Paper. (Mr. Keid: I should prefer to see it in the Upper House.) It would be there in good time. To suit the convenience of the hon. member for Egmont he would move that the order of the day for going into Committee of Supply be postponed till halfpast seven. Major ATKINSON desired to thank the Government for their courtesy in acceding to his wishes. The order of the day was then postponed till half-past seven. NEW BILLS. A Bill to amend the Taranaki Iron Smelting Works Lands Act 1874, and the Jackson Bay Road District Bill, were introduced aud read a first time. SECOND READINGS. The Native Lands Act 1873 Amendment Bill, the Marine Act Amendment Bill, and the Cemeteries Management Bill were read a second time. IN COMMITTEE. The House went into committee on the Shipping aud Seamau’s Bill, and the Bill was being considered when the House rose at 5.30. On resuming at half-past seven o'clock, the House being then iu committee on the Shipping and Seaman’s Bill, Sir George Grey moved that progress be reported, which was done, and leave obtained to sit again. The Marine Act Amendment Bill, and the Cemeteries Management Bill, were also reported from committee, read a third time, and passed. A STATEMENT BY SIAJOE ATKINSON. On the first order of the day being called on, namely, that the Speaker leave the chair in order that the House might go into Committee of Supply, The Hon, Major ATKINSON rose and said he had thought that he had beeu to blame for not having availed himself of some of the many opportunities which had occurred during the last month to answer the numerous inaccurate statements with regard to the finance of the colony which had emanated from the Treasury benches, and which had beeu carefully circulated throughout the country by the partisans of the present Government. But he now thought that the course he had followed was wise, inasmuch as they had ou the previous day had a deliberate statement from the Colonial Treasurer of the financial proposals of the present Government; aud he (Major Atkinson) now proposed t" avail himself of the present opportunity of giving a brief history of the fiuance relating to public works for the last few years, and also of commenting ou the proposals submitted to the House by the Colonial Treasurer in his Statement last night. It had been said, and said repeatedly to that House, that the late Government was a continuous Government from the year 1869. He hardly knew what meaning hon. gentlemen who took that view attached to the word continuous, as applied in the present instance, and they had not informed the House what meaning they attached to it when making the assertion. Now, he would like to ask iu what was the late Government continuous ; was it from a personal point of view ? If so, that was not a fact, as hon. gentlemen knew, as the Premier and other members of the Ministry were changed. Was it their policy ? Certainly not. The policy had been changed more than once during that period, and radically changed also. Was it iu respect to finance that the Government had been continuous ? Certainly not ; because the whole system of finance was also changed. This question appeared to him to be one of not very great importance, except the importance that had been attached to it by members on the other side of the House ; because it appeared to him that by accepting such a doctrine they would be weakening the responsibility of individual Ministers; and this was evident whan he was told by the hon, gentlemen opposite that he was responsible for acta committed by his hon. friend the member for Wanganui in 1870, when he (Major Atkinson) was in England, simply because he joined the Government in 1874. He held that a Minister was responsible only for acts which he himself has committed, or which have been committed while he occupies a seat fn the Government, or acts for which he has .directly taken responsibility. But let them admit for a moment, or for the sake of argument, that the late Government was a continuous Government, and then see what they would arrive at. Admitting that it was a fact, then it was also a fact that there were two very distinct epochs in its history. Up to the year 1874 it was a Government carried ou by a provincial party, and supported by gentlemen who believed entirely in the desirability of the original provincial institutions. Up to that date, however, the party which took up the Government of the country, and which has held office since, has been composed of firm advocates of provincial abolition, aud that Government succeeded in doing away with provincialism. They would also find that there had been a marked distinction in the mode of conducting the finance of the colony during those separate epochs. Up to the year 1875-76 they had beeu in the habit of appropriating their public works loans by permanent appropriations. When they borrowed money they borrowed so much in large sums permanently, and placed those sums in the power of the Government for expenditure, not from year to year, but in large sums, extending over several years. So that very great power was placed in the bands of the Government up to that date. In 1875 they altered that system entirely. He himself then had the honor to occupy the position of Colonial Treasurer, aud in that year they did away entirely with all standing appropriations. They introduced the Immigration and Public Works Loan Appropriation Act, and placed within the control of the House the whole of the money from year to year. The reserve fund they did away with, aud every vote expired absolutely on the 30th of June ia each year. In that year they also submitted to the House a plan for extending the balance of the public works loan for a period of two years, and the plan then laid down was adhered to, aud on the 30th of June last year they had not expended the whole of the balance of the loan authorised in 1875. Therefore, if they were a continuous Government, they had at any rate the credit of this ; that as soon as the glitter (if he might so call it) of the Public Works scheme had subsided, and they became aware of the fact that the work could not he carried on, as some hon, members had thought it could,at an extraordinary rate, it was at least -to their credit that they then sobered down to their work in real earnest, and looked forward to some years to come. ■ Since that date, too, the Government had adhered to the course they had marked out for themselves. He should now like to recall the ) attention of the House to the state of the colony iu the year 1870, when this scheme was -first introduced. It was a fact well known to hon. members that the country had then beeu suffering many years of depression ; property throughout the colony was almost valueless, and unsaleable to any extent; there was very little employment to be obtained, aud many people were thinking of leaving the colony for more prosperous sceues.

The population at that time was, in round numbers, 250,000 ; the public debt, less the accrued sinking fund, was seven millions and a quarter ; the annual charge upon the public debt was 4.536,000 ; the Consolidated Revenue was only £936,000; the Land Fund for the year £208,000 ; and the total revenue for the year—that is, Land Fund and otherwise £1,150,000- Now he would glance at the financial year just passed, and mark the difference. Our population had risen to 400,000 ; the public debt had increased from seven millions and a quarter to eighteen millions aud a quarter—that is, deducting the accrued sinking fund and cash iu hand'’; our Consolidated Revenue had risen to £1,990 000 • Land Fund, £1,035,000 ; and the permanent charge upon our debt had risen to £1,180,000. The Treasury bills outstanding in the year 1870 amounted to £618,000, without in. eluding Treasury bills issued that year to cover the deficit which had accrued the year before. The Treasury bills outstanding in the present year amount to £832,000, b-in» au iuerease iu seven years of £214,000. The charge on the permanent debt iu 1870 consumed foursevenths of onr Consolidated Revenue, and the public debt last year absorbed seven-twelfths of our ordinary revenue; that is to say that the extra charge in proportion to revenue had risen oue-eighty-fourth, which was a very trifling amount. But this fact was also worthy of note—that iu 1870 one-half of our revenue, territorial aud consolidated, was taken to pay the interest on our loans; whereas in the present year only one-third of the combined revenue was required for that putpose. He had sa d that the debt in 1870 was seven millions and a quarter, and last year eighteen millions and a quarter. That is to say an increase of eleven millions, which amount had been expended ou Immigration and Public Works, together with two or three other small items, during the last seven years; not twentyseven millions, as the Premier had told the House that he (Major Atkinson) had taken part in expending. Of this eleven mi lions, £500,000 was consumed in raising loans ; one million and a quarter was speut upon immigration; aud about one million and threequarters, in round numbers, was spent on railway material in England. That, sir, would leave an expenditure in the colony of about £8,000,000, which was a little over one million a .year, aud not, as had been represented, three millions a year. Now for this expenditure the colony had obtained 100,000 immigrants. They had also completed 860 miles of railway, and roads had been made to the extent of 2300 miles, and telegraph lines 3229 miles. They had also land worth, in his opinion, three-quarters of a million of money, and they had iu addition to that their, public buildings, lighthouses, and public works upon goldfields. Under these circumstances, he thought anyone looking fairly at the expenditure incurred, and the condition of the country under which it transpired, would feel inclined to say that, although they had necessarily wasted money to a certain extent, owing to the way iu which the scheme was origiually introduced, yet taking all things into consideration they h id got full value for their money; aud that we should congratulate ourselves on what we had got. Aud here he might remark that since he had the honor of taking office the Government had only taken power to increase the indebtedness of the colony to the extent of £ n ,300,000; that was the whole of the borrowing power obtained by him during the three year- he liad been in office ; and on the 30th June last £1,000,000 of that amount wan cash in hand, and in saying this he included Treasury bills. As he had said, the Treasury bills had since 1870 been increased by £214,000. This, he contended, was not a matter of surprise at all. He knew the hon. gentlemen opposite thought there was something dreadful in these Treasury bills ; but to his mind there was no difference between them and ordinary bonds, so far as the public was concerned. It was simply a matter of convenience, and the most profitable way of raising money for the object required. When he said that they had to assist Auckland, Wellington, and Westland to the extent of over £300,000, it would not cause surprise that this was considered a small increase. He would ask hon. gentlemen who talked about these Treasury bills what they would'have done under the circumstances? Would it have been wise at that time to take up a permanent loan for the purposes to which the amount thus expended was devoted ? No. The Ministry who proposed it would have been laughed at by the House. Looking at the position of the colony at the time, the course adopted was a perfectly reasonable one. Of course there were other ways of meeting this charge. They might have seized, as the Colonial Treasurer now proposed to seize, the land fund of Canterbury ; but that would not have been possible at the time these bills were issued, as the House must acknowledge. Then there was another course, namely, to increase the taxation, but the House would not have listened to such a proposal for a moment. In fact, neither of these courses was practicable. He heldin his hand a very interesting statement, which he was quite sure, when it came to be placed before the House aud the country, would be received with very great satisfaction. It was a statement he had prepared shortly before he left office, and showed the actual receipts of the colony on one side, treating the provinces and colony as one ; and the expenditure on the other—eliminating all aids to revenue in the shape of Treasury bills, balance of advance to loans, or released sinking fund, etc. The total receipts amounted to £8,393,000, including the Land Fund ; total expenditure, including expenditure on public works, £2,879,060. Thus, if the Land Fund had been general, and we had first ascertained what our balance was that could be applied to public works, we would have found that after providing for the whole of the interest on departmental services of every description, there would have beeu a balance for expenditure last year of £514,000. And this was not a favorable view of the circumstances, for this reason, that they had in hand iu the begiuuing of the year something over £131,000, so that a considerable part of the expenditure which he had put down might fairly have beeu charged against that amount. He quoted further figures to show that by reason of expenditure ou behalf of provinces the expenditure ou public works was considered to be £l, 00,000, whereas they were actually expending £3,000,000, and no doubt such expenditure should have coma under the view of the House, which showed the necessity for the abolition of provinces. He then compared the statement he had just made with the proposed expenditure they submitted for the approval of the House, and which the Colonial Treasurer had accepted as Ids expenditure for the year, by which the House would see that the view he (Major Atkinson) gave was quite correct. He showed that the proposal of the late Government was to expend £52,000 less this year than was expended the year before, and by making deductions of extra amounts he realised a saving, as shown by his proposals, of £252,000 for the present year. This he looked upon as a most satisfactory state of things, and showed the necessity for abolition. This showed exactly the position of the colony, and he challenged the Colonial Treasurer iu his reply to question the accuracy of the statement he had made. He would presently examine the statement of the hon. gentleman, and the proposals of the present Government, and would show that there was no foundation for the difficulties Mr. Larnach had affected to discover; and this, he apprehended, would not be a very arduous task, inasmuch as it was apparent already that as the Colonial Treasurer became gradually better acquainted with the finance of the colony these difficulties and bugbears, .the creations of his own brain, as gradually vanished. ’ When he first took officethe hon. gentleman raised a great question as; to the possibility • of meeting our liabilities for the want of cash; but where had,that difficulty disappeared to now! ; The hon. gentleman had told them that they could not make bricks wittiont straw., A novel asssrtaon ; and if he had succeeded he (Major Atkinson) would be very glad to be informed how it was done, as the knowledge would be useful to him when next he had the honor to be Colonial Treasurer. (Laughter from Government members.) Hon. gentlemen might laugh if it pleased them, but there were more improbable things thuu that likely to occur. As to how provision was to be made for this year, he well

knew by this timetbat ample provision had been made bv arrangement with the bank should the Consolidated Revenue fail. Then they had to consider how they were to deal with their floating liabilities, how they proposed to meet Treasury bills, and deal with the one million they had obtained from the hank They intended to have provided that in the Inscription of Stock Act, as it would have met that difficulty in the most complete way and they bad hoped to have had that Bill last session, and then the question of the floating debt would have been a thing of the past. Therefore, as he thought he had shown, they had made all proper provision for cash payments that were due, and marked out a course how they should fund the floating debt. They had also provided all reasonable amount of money for the present year, and likewise made ample provision for the whole of the oot-taud* ing provincial liabilities. It was not a fact, as the lion, gentleman the Colonial Treasurer knew, that there was a sum of £2 H),000 which they had not provided for. From these facts it could, he thought, be plainly reen that the whole of their auancial position had been carefully wrought out, and they saw quite clearly how they were going to meet all their liabilities. Th y had, in fact, in every possible way, as he challenged the lion. member to dispute, made all reasonable and wise provision to overcome all the difficulties, which had apparently been'eonjured up; and in saying so much he could with every confidence state that every fact and figure he had given could be verified by the the bon. gentleman on the opposite side of the House. They had it from the Premier himself that he had clearly ascertained the financial position of the colony, and they had it the previous night from the Colonial Treasurer that he could not hope to put before the House more clearly than he (Major Atirinson) had done ad the details of the loans borrowed for public works. That covered a great deal, and on that subject he was quite prepared that the country should judge between him and the bon. gentleman opposite. But as they were to be judges of their past doings he ■would like to refer to the state in which it seemed the country was left by the lion, the Premier as far back a: the year 1804, so that they would be able to judge between the promises which he had made and the results accomplished. The hon. member then quoted from a paper brought before the English House of Commons in August, ISd4, and signed by Sir Charles Clifford, in which numerous complaints were made in reference to the Native Lands Department ; That charges hitherto unknown had been incurred which threatened to absorb the larger portion of the territorial revenue ; that little or no progress had been made in the settlement of the land disturbances ; that not only was there a difficulty in ascertaining the charges upon the territorial revenue, but land scrip had been issued without any control ; that a large per centage' of laud had been bartered without authority; that public reserves had been improperly alienated — (hear, hear)—and that the whole organisation of the Government was in disorder." Such was the condition in which the hon. gentleman left the colony in after being a Governor of some six or seven years standing. And he had only quoted the extract as it was always well to compare the promises of men with their actual performances. He then proposed to consider the financial proposals of the hon. gentleman who had addressed the House on the previous night, and at a glance he thought hon. members would easily see that they were involved, inaccurate, and mi-leading. (Hear, hear.) They had only to read the first paragraph in the Statement to see that the hon. gentleman had not yet learned to distinguish between tbe Public Works Account and the Cousolidatedßevenue Account, and hehad made them up in a manner in which no one would have thought they would have been submitted to the House. The hon. gentleman had restrained the undisciplined ardour of his chief, because, when they proposed to change the incidence of taxation of the colony, he saw his way to reduce the pub ic expenditure by the sum of £100,000; but now that he had got into power, what did the Colonial Treasurer say ? “More than a third of the financial year had elapsed, and as much patient inquiry is requisite to prevent this becoming mischievous, 1 shall adopt the ways of my predecessor, and the £IOO,OOO will be struck otf.” That hon. gentleman had gone on to tell them that he had a great objection to the present system of finance, but he (Major Atkinson) would like him to state in what his objection was, as he very much preferred answering the arguments of his opponents thf n any bald statements they might have to make. The hon. gentleman, however, had propounded no tangible proposition, and he would therefore ask what he had to propose? Did he object to borrow the money for public works ? No, he did not. Did he refuse to borrow money to consolidate public debts? No, he did not, if they believed he intended to borrow money. The Treasurer, it seemed, intended to raise a loan of four millions of money, one half of which was for the system of consolidation. Was it to borrow in aid of revenue ? No, certainly not. Again, where he (Major Atkinson) proposed to borrow £109,000, and charge it against the Otago provincial revenue, the hon. member proposed to borrow £300,000, and charge it against the Consolidated Revenue, The Hon, the Colonial Treasurer appeared to have suddenly become alive to the fact that it was the duty of the House to have better control over the money, and that that could be accomplished by calling the House earlier in the year ; but did he not know that such a system had been tried before, and bod proved a failure ? Did he not know that the House required to be prepared to vote the estimates irrespective altogether of the Financial Statement ? Did he not know that such a system necessitated their estimating for a fourth, and only giving the actual facts for the three-fourths, and so assimilating their practice with the English Parliament. Such a practice, he felt sure, would never be consented to in this colony, as their public works were of such great magnitude as compared with their public revenue that he felt sure it would not be agreed to, as the House generally refused to go on with public works until the Estimates had been brought down. Therefore the House would have to do what his friend Sir Julius Vogel tried—to submit to an Estimate for one-fourth, and a Statement for three-fourths; a system which he felt certain would not work, although it it would, he fully believed it would be a good plan if the House could be got to consent co it. He was certain, however, the House never would consent to it so long as their works were of such magnitude. He (Major Atkinson) would next draw attention to the question of provincial liabilities and supplementary estimates, and in tbat particular direction ho was somewhat surprised. The hon. gentleman had stated that up, to the 30th June last the sum of £237,1500 had.been advanced from loan to meet provincial liabilities, and there existed on that date in the shape of overdrafts at the bank on provincial account the sum of £105,888, or an aggregate sum of £343,388, which might be -reduced by £15,888, being the amount of balances in hand to meet liabilities on provincial account, thus leaving still unsupported the sum of £297,500. He (Major Atkinson) was, however, truly unable to comprehend that statement, and he trusted the hon. gentleman would explain it. The truth really was that the sum of £105,838 had no business in the Statement at all, as the£237,000 was expenditure actually incurred, whereas the former amount was a debt still due. The hon. member opposite had in the coarse , of his Statement said that there were still further liabilities on provincial accounts outstanding amounting to £279,766, reducible by about £30,000 due from land fund and other sources, leaving a total amount to bo provided: for in some manner of £249,766. The position of the provincial liability account, however, was this : Hast year he (Major Atkinson) asked for authority to raise £275,000 by loan to meet payments, and out of that amount there was actually paid £237,000. On the 30th June last he estimated the amount of the provincial liability at £237,000 ; but in doing so he had only been guided by a rough estimate from Otago, and in asking the House to meet that liability be sought to obtain a grant of £259,000, in order to cover all possible un-

foreseen contingencies. That amount provided for every species of provincial liability then outstanding, and therefore he could not see why it could be stated from the other side that there was still a sum of £200,000 not provided for. Before lie left office, as he had pointed out in the Statement he made to the House, be had prepared a statement of all provincial liabilities, together with the unexpended votes of the Provincial Councils, which were, however, in no way whatever a provincial liability. Ho should, be felt, refer to the enormous votes made in tbe Otago Provincial Council. The hon. gentleman who now officiated as Minister of Lauds estimated his revenue for the last year at £400,000 ; but after some correspondence with the Government tbat amount was reduced by £IOO,OOO, and votes were taken that were then unexpended upon the express condition that the land was to be sold to meet them, as it was never intended that these votes should be considered as a burden upon the country. The reason why he (Major Atkinson) bad tbat list prepared,which the hon. gentleman took up, and sent down to the House as provincial liability, was that there were certain unexpended votes which should be revoted by the House so as to aid and as.-Lt districts which were neglected. The list was prepared so that they should know all the votes they had to submit to the House ; but they bad no idea whatever of proposing that they should be charged as against the Consulidatedßevenue, and that merely because the Provincial Council of Otago bad chosen to vote such suras, they should refuse sums to Auckland. Yet the'hon. gentleman opposite, well knowing that such was the case, had come down to the House and said that these were actual liabilities, whereas in point of fact they were no more liabilities than any vote they had yet to consider during the present session. He trusted, therefore, that the House would refuse the Otago votes, unless they were made an actual charge upon the Land Fund. The hon. gentleman had called for justice to Auckland, and when he got into power he voted Otago £246,0(10 aud Auckland £BO9O. He would leave the last paragraphs relating to provincial liabilities because they were absolutely contrary to fact. He had shown that last year one half of the provincial liabilities had actually been paid out of the loan. Coming to the central part of tbe Statement, the Treasurer had found that if he only took the Land Fund and robbed Canterbury of asufficient amount be could balance his account, but he (Major Atkinson) would show that he had entirely failed to balance bis ace -unt by his proposals. He proposed to equalise his account and give confidence to the English money lender. He had no business to talk about the land sales because he was dealing with the Laud Fund. The Land Fund for this year was set down at a million of money, but it was not proposed to take it until the first of January, fie had told them tbat up to the 30th September last £IOO,OOO had beeu paid, and it would not take much stretch of tbe imagination to suppose tbat by the Ist January another £IOO,OOO would be paid. Thus we would be in this position by tbe Ist of January: We shall have got £650,000, so that of the Land Fund this year there will go into the colonial chest £350,000 ; but of that amount the hon. gentleman proposed to localise £70,000, that was to say, 20 per cent, (one-fifth), so that the actual receipts in the Colonial Treasury would be £280,000. But the permanent charges upon the Laud Fund for the six months from the Ist January to the 30th June amount to £322,000 —one-half of tbe permanent charges of £643,000. Instead of getting anything out of the Land Fund, the hon. gentleman would receive £280,000, and have to pay £320,000. In order to include the deficit be bad caused through not following tbe finance he (Major Atkinson) had, be would have an extra deficit of £40,000. Through seizing the Land Fund the Government had to provide this year £240,000. How was he going to do that ? If he had not known the hon. gentleman was straightforward, telling “ the truth and nothing but the truth,” he should have thought he was rather concealing what he was going to do. Did he propose to raise his deficit of £300,000 out of the Consolidated Revenue ? This is the Government who are going to do away with all borrowing bv the aid of the Land Fund I There was another point. Supposing he takes off the Land Fund, be says it tbe Government, after due consideration, find tbat the interest of tbe colony should necessitate it, they arc prepared to undertake tbe main roads of the colony. Did he know that meant something like half a million cf money extra ?_ He was going to reduce tbe Ministers’ salaries, which meant that the Government of the colony was to be given over to adventurers or to men of considerable property. They could not obtain tbe class of men which the House had a right to demand, unless they were independent men, for that salary, and he appealed to the experience of any lion, gentlemen who had been Ministers whether any one of them did not go back a poorer man then when he took office. If they doubted it, let them have a committee of hon. members, and he would be willing to be examined. There was another inaccuracy desirable to point out. The Treasurer said tbe Public Accounts Committee reported that it was desirable to sell tbe Hinemoa. The Public Accounts Committee had ; but the Weather Committee had reported that it should uot be sold, and he for one, as a North Island man would regret exceedingly to see the steamer sold. He looked upon it as a. matter of insurance, as he looked upon the necessity of maintaining a certain number of Armed Constabulary in the North Island. It was desirable to keep the steamer in case of emergency, such as the possibility of disasters, and, the requirements of lighthouses. referred to the occasion, when building the lighthouse at The Brothers, when it was deemed necessary to send a steamer in order to save the lives of men, and the difficulty experienced in getting one. With regard to railway management, the Treasurer said he looked forward to the report of the Railway Committee. Why the report had been laid on the table of the House a fortnight ago. So thoroughly had the hon. gentleman mastered the details of his department, and so thoroughly watched the reorganisation and reforms he was going to make. He also proposed to raise a four million loan, and he would like to know why this was? If he proposedfto go on with the Inscription of Stock Bill the four million loan would be quite useless, as he could not possibly want more than two millions and a half, even supposing that he should persuade the House to vote the provincial liabilities as they now stood. If ho wished to refund the Treasury bills, it would be easier to do so under tbe Inscribed Stock Bill, as he would avoid two commissions. He called attention to two paragraphs, which he had read with very great pain, because they wore absolutely at variance with tact. They stated :—“ The practice of concealing—perhaps unintentionally—the amount of the colonial indebtedness, by t l 'e issue nf Treasury bills, and the raising of temporary loans in the colonies, has an effect even worse than imposing directly on the Home creditor. It encourages the people of this colony to fancy their liabilities to be smaller than they really are, and to agitate for a greater expenditure than the colony can afford.” He called upon the hon. gentleman to produce a single Financial Statement for the last seven years in which the whole of onr indebtedness in Treasury bills, advances, or any other form, was not fully set forth and summed up, and the whole amount treated as the liability of the colony. If he would not do that, let him get up at once, and retract this statement. Ho (Major Atkinson) had, invariably included the Treasury bills, and every other liability for which the colony was indebted. He (Mr. Larnach)_ had tended rather to exaggerate than to diminish the public debt. The speaker wanted to know how it was possible for any creditor, or any person in the colony, to be misled in this matter. The majority of persons in the colony were unable to distinguish between Treasury bills and other indebtedness. They looked upon the indebtedness as one quite indifferent as to the bonds by which money had been got. The hon. gentleman desired not only to make up the deficit by taking up the Land Fund, but he also desired to reassure the English moneylender. Was It honest and straightforward to

put down provincial liabilities at £200,000 which are not liabilities at all, and for which he has the money to pay ? He includes these, and would lead the House to believe that they were actual liabilities which have got to be provided for. He would ask, was it ever contemplated that the province! liabilities, for which they had always proposed to take over public works, should be taken out of Laud Fund. The Statement from beginning to end was absolutely misleading. The same statement applied to No. 2 table, in which he thought he perceived the work of the hon. the Premier. The daily expenditure in excess of estimated revenue was set down at £1926, and that would be sent forth through the colony, and outsiders would consider how many shillings a minute we were losing. It was very serious and unbecoming to bis position to send forth such a statement as that. It seemed to him that tbe arrangement they had at present was by far tbe preferable one, and perfectly satisfactory. He had to thank the House for ihe attention they had paid to him, and expressed his regret tbat he had detained them at such length, but the subject was one of very great importance, and he was anxious to place it fully before the House He hoped he had succeeded in showing tbat the finance of the last few years had not been a hand-to-mouth finance ; that it had uot beeu a pawnbroking finance; that the whole proceedings bad not been done without a clear knowledge in view that any action which they had taken was well considered and done deliberately. Ho referred especially to the raising of the million of money from the banks in tbe colony. Before raising that money in the colony they took the advice of capable persons in London ; and to call that pawnbroking was simply to misapprehend the whole transaction. The finance during the last two years was a reasonable one, and had they been allowed to continue in office they would have placed the finances of the colony, in the course of a few months, in a thoroughly satisfactory position. He had also shown, he thought, that the statements made by the Colonial Treasurer were absolutely unreliable. It'was illusory to think they would decrease the deficit by taking it out of the Land Fund. (Hear, bear.) Sir GEORGE GREY said the task he had to perform was a difficult one. He bad to answer an exceedingly ill-arranged speech, and would be compelled to ramble from point to point of bis address. He affirmed tbat tbe previous Government was a continuous Government, and one of an exceedingly bad kind. It was a Government which was bent upon retaining office at any price, and by inducing members who were opposed to them to join their Ministry, and by tbat means destroying Government by party iu the colouy. He trusted a system so destructive to constitutional government would never again prevail. Tbe hou. member for Egmont had attributed the difficulties the colouy labored under iu the past to the existence of the provinces. But such was uot the case. The difficulties arose from the provinces being deprived nf those necessary powers which it was first intended they should possess, and which would have enabled them to perform their duties efficiently. Tbe hou, member for Egmont had no sense of shame when he said that at the present there was an ampleuess of cash. But how did he intend t<> secure that ampleness ? Why, by further borrowing from the banks. The total sum now at the disposalof the Government on all accounts was £228,419,, aud by the Ist of February they had to meet in Lr udon, as interest on the loans, the sum of £163,000. With regard to the Bill for the inscription of stock, that was a Bill to provide for the borrowing of more money. He (Major Atkinson) had said that there had been ample provision made to meet provincial liabilities ; but no provision absolutely bad beeu made. Where was the provision? Echo answered where ? Alluding to the remarks which fell from Major Atkinson about bis unpopularity in Auckland iu years goue by, lie stated tbat what he had done then had borne good fruit in the confidence which the people of chat place now reposed iu him. The disappointed men who then slandered him passed into oblivion, as the raillery of the hon. member for Egmont would soon be forgotten. He was taunted with doing nothing siuce he was in office. He was a whole mouth on the Treasury benches, and during all that time he had been constantly attacked by the late Premier, who was hungering after a position which he (Sir George Grey) hoped, for the good of the colony, he would never again attain. His life had been embittered by the hon. member for Egmont constantly starting up and proposing votes of no confidence, aud by inducing another gentleman to propose a vote of censure, which he afterwards requested him to withdraw, as he did not desire to see anyone but himself lead the party, as he might in the event of a change of Ministry lose his chance of drawing his pay monthly as a Minister of the Crown. The hon. member had accused the Government of adopting his Financial Statement. They had adopted his E.-timates because they had not t me to frame others. A great deal of these Estimates referred to services continued from year to year, and the Government had not' had an opportunity of seeing what reductions could he made in those services. However, they pledged themselves not to exceed the Estimates. The hon. member desired to know what objection there was to bis finance. There was this objection to it—tbat it was a finance for friends, and not for the people of New Zealand. He objectsd to tbe finance which enriched individuals at the expense of the community. He looked forward to the time when there would be a finance in New Zealand baaed upon every item being paa-ed by a Parliament representing every class in the country. A part of their finance would be that the Land Fund would go into the Consolidated Revenue, and be voted by the representatives of the people. By that means they would be helping to establish a fair land law for all classes. No acre of land would bo parted with unless they had the sanction of tlie law for it. His Excellency would not be asked to sign at Government House his name, to give away large blocks of lands to favoured individuals, aud without the knowledge of Parliament or the public. The hon. member for Egmont had asked what would the people of Auckland say to their finance. He desired to aid Auckland, but he would not do so by injustice to other places. The people of Auckland would rely upon the House making proper provision for their wants, and would scorn to take anything at the expense of any other part of the colony. It was impossible to put before the House this session a true estimate of what reductions con'd be accomplished in the public expenditure; but next session the Government would do so, and they were well advised that very large reductions could be effected. He felt they would be able to prepare a plan which would free the people from financial difficulties. The House knew it would be unfair to call upon the Ministry to devise such a scheme this session, and would not heed the hon. member for Egraout, who was hungering for office, Ho (Sir George Grey) had stated soma days ago that during tlie past five or six years the Colonial Treasurer had spent £27,000,000, and be had been contradicted. He found that during that, time there had been expended £13,000,000 of Consolidated Revenue, £12,000,000 loans, and over £1,000,000 on account of the provinces. With regard to tho salaries of Ministers, he believed the services of numerous gentlemen well qualified could bo obtained for a salary of £IOOO a-year. Years ago, when salaries were Iqw, there had been a class of men in the Government who shed brilliancy upon Parliamentary proceedings. High salaries created unprincipled scrambling for office. What was the salary of Washington and the other great‘statesmen of America? The President of the United States, one of the greatest nations ‘oh the face of the earth, had actually a less salary than tho Governor of New Zealand. If they could not obtain a better class of statesmen than the hon member for Egmont for less than £IBOO a-year and a free house, then ho would say, “ God deliver us.” A great private expenditure led to a waste of public money. With regard to the floating debt, ho repeated that it did conceal the true state of the indebtedness of the colony to tho Home creditors. They knew nothing of Treasury bills or loans (raised iu Sydney. They simply.looked at the

funded debt. The Treasurer last year had in his Statement shown a surplus, and had telegraphed that such was the fact to London. That there was no surplus was the belief of everyone who went through the accounts. The Statement of his colleague was plain, blunt, and honest, and would make make a good impression upon the money market; for although the indebtedness of the colony was large, there were ample resources to meet it. The Ministry had kept back nothing that they knew, but they did not yet profess to know all of the liabilities. \Vhen he spoke some time ago about contingent liabilities to contractors of £270,000, he was taken to task by a late Minister for making such a statement, but he found out that the first had been made good, and it t might be the same with a great many of the The statement that the cash balances shown iu the Financial Statement were incorrect was unfair; they were given exactly as they had come under their notice. Sir George Grey concluded by stating that if himself and his colleagues succeeded in establishing a system of finance for the many, and not in the interest of the few, they would then be willing to retire altogether from public life, feeling that they had doue their duty to the country. Mr. McLEAN said the hon. gentleman who had last spoken had not attempted to answer the figures given by Major Atkinson. The Premier was allowed to use language which if any other member used he would be cried down. He dared him to point out one single instance where any of the late Ministry exercised their position to benefit their friends at • the expense of the country. Mr. Mcl.eau, in the course of a long speech, warmly defended Major Atkinson from the attacks which had been made upon him by Sir George Grey. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Sheehan, the debate was adjourned till Thursday at half-past 2. The House rose at 12.45.