PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5179, 27 October 1877, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, October 26. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at half - past two o’clock. REPORT. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN brought up the report of the Waste Lands Committee on the Lyttelton. Harbor Board Land Bill, which was read.—The Bill was ordered to be committeed on Monday next. NOTICES OP MOTION. The Hon. Colonel BRETT gave notice that on next sitting day he would move, —That the name of the Hon. Mr. Acland be discharged from the Waste Lands Committee, and the name of the Hon. Mr. Buckley added thereto. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL gave notice of a motion for next sitting, as did also the Hon. Mr. Peacock, who gave notice that he should move, —That the Governor cause an enquiry to be instituted as to whether the Sohiehallion, when at sea, carried the proper lights. MOTIONS. The Hon. Captain ERASER moved, —That the report of the Public Petitions Committee re Te Hapuku’s petition be referred back to the committee for the purpose of considering evidence which is at present attached to the evidence, although it has not yet been considered by the committee. Considerable discussion ensued on the motion, and eventually it was negatived by a majority of four on a division. The Hon. Mr. HALL, at the request of the Hon. Col. Whitmore, postponed his motion, —That this Council doth concur in the report of the select committee upon the Canterbury grain traffic, —till Monday next. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed :—The Shipping and Seamen’s Bill, the Tokomairiro Farmers’ Club Reserve Bill, the Otago Roads Ordinance Amendment Bill, the Auckland Harbor Bill, and the Southland Agricultural aud Pastoral Association’s Reserve Bill. ORDERS OF THE DAT. The adjourned debate was resumed by the Hon. Colonel Whitmore upon the question, (X). That the Council agrees with the Report of the Public Petitions Committee on the petition of Te Hapuku and 203 others, with respect to the management of the Te Ante Estate, presented to the Council on the 18th October. (2). That a copy of the report be forwarded to the Government for their consideration. Ou the motion of the Hon. Mr. Hall the petition was read ; and ou the motion of the Hon. Major Richmond, the report of the Committee was also readThe Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY moved_ an amendment to the effect that in the opinion of the Council it was desirable that the property should be let by public tender or by auction in one or more blocks, instead of being leased privately. The Hon. Sir F. D. Bell agreed neither with the original.question nor with the amendment. The Hons. G. R- Johnson, Mr. Edwards, Colonel Kenny, and Dr. Pollen took part in the discussion. Subsequently the hon. Mr. Buckley withdrew his amendment, and the original motion was carried on the voices. The Council adjourned at 5.20 p.m, till 7.30, when it only met to adjourn till the usual hour on Monday afternoon. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, October 26. The Speaker took the chair at 7.30 p.m. THE NO-CONFIDENCE, MOTION. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS gave notice that when the hon. member for Egmont moved bis motion of want of confidence iu the Government he would move as an amendment, —That the Government having not yet declared their policy, the House declines iu the meantime to entertain any vote of want of confidence in the Ministry. Major ATKINSON then rose and said: Sir, In the first speech which the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government delivered after his accession to office, he was pleased to describe this House as a “ really august assembly”—an assembly commanding the confidence, and justly commanding tbe confidence and respect of the country, aud one whose duty, among other things, it was to determine whether he and his colleagues were proper persons to act as heads of this House. This being the case, I count this evening upon his assistance to bring the motion which I am about to submit for the consideration of this House to a definite conclusion. For, sir, there can be no one in this House who is more deeply interested in ascertaining the fact whether or not he possesses the confidence of this Assembly. X shall not have to-night to trouble the House at any great length, but shall content myself with submitting two or three reasons which seem to me amply conclusive iu the direction iu which I wish this House to go. In the first place it

appears to me that though the hon. gentle--man occupies the position, he is not head of the Government by the vote of a majority of this House. It is perfectly certain and beyond " dispute that there were more gentlemen who voted upon the late division against the late Government than the maj jrity who displaced them, who would not so have voted if they had believed that the hon. gentleman would succeed to power. If this is true, or there is a suspicion that it is time, I will ask the hon, gentleman whether he desires to occupy that place in that position when he has been challenged, and told that he does not posses* the confidence of the House. I will ask him whether he will be prepared to accept the amendment of the hon. member for Port Chalmers, or whether, looking at the views he has always enunciated, it will not be the more manly course to vote against that resolution, - and come definitely to a conclusion to-night and ascertain whether or not he has the confidence of the House. But putting this aside for a moment, let us suppose that the hon., gentleman did obtain his seat by a small majority. Then I say that even if that is true, he has altogether failed to collect around him such a Ministry as this House can have confidence in. It is quite evident, and indeed it is common talk, that the hon. gentleman cannot even command the services of the best men in his own party. I should like to know why, if the hon. gentleman hasjhe real confidence of his party, the hon. member for At aroa . is not now Colonial Treasurer. I should also like to know why the hon. member for Auck--laud City East is not Attorney-General. He is a gentleman who, as we know, is ready at any time either to fall down and worship at the feet of the hon. gentleman, or to do anything which he is told to do. Why has he been set aside ? Then let us look at the arrangements which were made in another place. There we have the distinct statement of the gentleman who represents the Government in theLegislative Council that he has under-taken the duty very reluctantly, and only for the purpose of getting them out of a difficulty, and that he only considers himself bound to them till the end of the session ; and even now the - Government have been a fortnight in office,, and they have been unable to fill up the whole of their seats. Although they claim to have a majority in this House, they are actually unable or unwilling to disclose their hands too much. At any rate they are unable or unwilling to fill the whole of their offices. Then another reason why this House should not have confidence in the hon. gentleman is that he has already departed from some cardinal points of the policy which he laid down to this House as essential, or he has entirely failed to apprehend the importance of them. The hon. gentleman, in the speech in which he shadowed forth the policy of the Government, said that one great desire of his Government, was to have a thorough sifting and investigation into the finances of the colony. The dark places were to be made light; all the misdoings of the late Government were to be exposed; and the hon. gentleman in order to do this was prepared, if necessary, to defy this House, and to retain those seats until he had an opportunity of doing it. Sir, the finances were to be placed in a perfectly clear, and simple light before the public. It is possible that the hon. gentleman may be able to put them in such a light that no other person has yet been able to put them in; and if he does that he will certainly receive my thanks, for I, too, have endeavored to the best of my ability while I was in the Treasury—l have endeavored with all the power I possessed to make things simple and clear. I have endeavored to do that, and I was willing at all times to give information to anybody upon the subject, either privately or in public ; —and if the hon. gentleman, as I say, is able to put the finances in a better light, the thanks of the country will be due to him. Another point which he laid great stress ■ upon was, that the public works were to be - carried on with economy and vigor; that the Government, profiting by the experience and shortcomings of former Governments, would be in a better position than any Government had been in to carry them on with vigor and economy. The finances were to be made simple, and a thorough investigation was to • take place upon them, and the public works were to be prosecuted with economy and vigor. Now, sir, how has the hon. gentleman proceeded to give effect to this design % I know somewhat of the working of both of these departments. There are other hon. gentlemen in this House who also know what work in these two departments is, and I venture to say that there is not an hon. member who knows anything of the work that is to be done in those offices who would pretend to say that either office was not more thau enough for an ordinary man during session time. Then what does the hon. gentleman proceed to do ? Starting with the assertion that both of these offices are not in proper working order, and that everything from the very root requires revision and exposure,—what does the hon. gentleman do with two offices, either of which would tax the strength of any hon. member in this House ? He confers them upon a gentleman who is absolutely without political experience, and who has never taken any but a very languid interest in public questions. And that hon. gentleman freely accepts the duty. He undertakes to do the work during the session. He undertakes to give us a full exposition of the finances, and to carry on the public works with economy and despatch. Sir, can we believe that the hon. gentleman-, has really apprehended the magnitude of the task he has undertaken, when we see him take such steps as these to give effect to what he proposes to do? I would say that any hon. member by accepting such duties as those shows his • absolute uutituess for either office, and I will say that it must make it exceedingly doubtful to this House whether the hon. member ■ is competent to perform them. I would ask, what would we think of a leader who ■ would make such an appointment for such purposes ? "We have already seen the effect of this. The hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, when he first addressed this House, told us that we should have the Financial Statement down either the next day orvery shortly afterwards. The Hon. the Colonial Treasurer told us a few days after that ws should get it in a day or two. He fixed last Monday or Tuesday, and then when Monday or Tuesday came, he put it off for anotherweek, to no definite day—hut for another week—to enable him, as he said, to ascertainthe facts relating to the finances. Now, I say that this statement shows that the hon. gentleman entirely misapprehended the task which he had to perform. The facts of the finances of the colony are patent to everyone. Theaccounts are published as audited. The facta upon which the hon. gentleman can base any finance for the future are ready to his hand in any shape that he wishes at any moment. If he had told us that he wanted time to devise some scheme to get over the difficulty which he has caused by abandoning part of the revenue which I intended to use, I could have understood his position. But even then he could have had no ground for the delay which he has asked ; and for this reason, the hon. gentleman had evidently, if we are to take his own statement upon the motion of no confidence which he gave—if we could take his statement, he thoroughly understood the finances. (He was pleased to describe mine as unprincipled, and hand to mouth finance: that the proposal to take any portion of the Canterbury and Otago revenue was very near public blunder if not quite.) I say when tbe hon. gentleman undertook to move a vote of no confidence, knowing if it was carried that he would have the responsibility of forming a Government—when, I say, he undertook to describe the finance of his opponent, this House had a reasonable right’ to expect that he had made himself thoroughly acquainted with the finances, and was prepared to submit to us a substitute for that which he had condemned. And further, among the party of the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government there are, I think, something likefive great financiers. There is the hon. member for Parnell, there is the hon. member for Auckland City East, there is the hon. member for Akaroa, and the hon. member at the head of the Government is the most shining light of all, and lastly, there is the hon. the Colonial Treasurer. Now, with such a galaxy of talent as that; with gentlemen who told us that they were in a position and capable of making a Financial Statement with-

-out any preparation whatever, was it not reasonable to expect that at this period of the . session ten days would have been ample for '. those hon. gentlemen to work out the scheme they desired to propose. And yet what did the hon. gentleman do? He declined altogether to fax a date. Prom time to time he puts it off, and ho makes this House believe —a majority of this House was undoubtedly under Jhe_ impression • that the hon. gentleman had no intention of malting a Financial Statement at all. Sir, the House was under that impression. I say that the majority of this House is under that impression, and the vote which we will take tonight will show it. Another reason why they are under that impression is this : The Hon. the Colonial Treasurer, when he told us in that offhand way that he had not yet made himself thoroughly acquainted with the facts, although ho could describe my finance in the terms which I have indicated, told us at the same time that he was prepared to go on with the Estimates of the late Government. 1 hero was never a word that .he was going to cut , them down, alter them, or do anything else with them. He said in that simple manner for which he is now noted that he was prepared to .go on with the ordinary Estimates of the Go- • vernment. How, I ask any hon. member whether that did pot really indicate that the ■ hon. gentleman, having looked all round, was ■ prepared to accept the financial position as it stood, and so relieve himself from that duty? If, at any rate, we have been misled, it has • certainly been by the hon. gentlemen on those benches. Then, sir, I am told—by the followers of the hon. gentlemen it has been freely -talked about —I am told that although this .Ju not much of a Government that we have .now got, there are great materials in the party, and that if we will only wait a short time, and especially until the end of the ses,sion, we shall see a Government of which New Zealand will be proud. Well, I confess for . one X am not prepared to wait for that time ; 1 for one am not prepared to place in the .hands of the hon. member for the Thames the power to select colleagues after this House has .risen. .There may be hon. gentlemen who are .prepared to do that. X do not wish to ‘ quarrel with them for it at all; but I claim. ,my right as a representative of New Zealand to know the Government under which we are to pass the recess. The objection has been taken, and I know it weighs with some hon. members, and evidently •with the hon. member for Port Chalmers, that we have been too quick in moving a resolution ■of want of confidence, and we ought to have waited until the hon. gentlemen had more fully explained their policy. I myself hardly know what we were to have waited for. We have had one policy already stated by the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, and we had another policy stated in another place;,one which we may term a fairly Radical policy, the other an absolute assertion that it ,was the most Conservative Government that ■lias ever existed in New Zealand. Then I .presume we are to wait for a third policy in ■order to harmonise and reconcile these two -diverse policies. To my mind it would be .absolutely useless to wait. At this period of ■the session, when hon. gentlemen are stopping with very great difficulty, and especially those - who are ungaged in country pursuits, it appears to me it would be entirely unreasonable to give those hon. gentlemen longer time than we have done. As I have said, we have already had two policies, and the only thing we have to wait for is either a reconciliation of those ..two, or a Financial Statement; and as I have already shown, we have.no reason to believe that we shall get any Financial Statement at all. Then, I ask, why are we to put hon, members to the inconvenience and delay of waiting any longer, when by the course I have pursued we shall necessitate those hon. gentlemen, if they have any financial policy, to bring it forward, and if they have not, then to expose those wonderful shortcomings in the Treasury in regard to which they hare spread insinuations throughout the country ? I challenge them as X have already . challenged them—to bring down their financial policy, or their exposition of the shortcomings of the late Government. _ I would ask any hon. gentlemen who are inclined to vote for the amendment of the hon. member for Port Chalmers, why we should wait ? why we should put hon. gentlemen to the inconvenience of further staying away from their homes, in order that the hon, gentleman who does not, aa I believe, possess the confidence of this House, who did not obtain his seat by vote of the majority of this House, —I ask why are we to delay the business of the country in order to give the hon, gentlemen an opportunity of giving ns a second or a third policy, whichever it may be? Un- . doubtedly this is a party move, and had there been time it would have been a very great adyantage for the Opposition to have waited nmtil those hon. gentlemen had displayed their ■tcnrli. more fully. But as I say there was .absolutely no time, and by the dilatory action .of the Government we have been compelled to take the course we have done. ■ We are told that .the present Government have done more work in ten days than we did in two or three months ; but, sir, I would ask what is the work they have done ? They have discharged many of the Bills which we have put upon the Order Paper, and they have carried with our assistance other Bills which wo also put upon the Order Paper. That is the great work which those hon. gentlemen have done. I have no hesitation in saying that the Hon. the Native Minister, who, if he will allow me to give him another title, I would also call the Minister for Bills, has displayed wonderful ability in obtaining a superficial knowledge of the Bills which we have passed through ; but he must know himself that the knowledge he obtained of those measures in the short time at his disposal was only superficial, and that he could not possibly have defended any one of those Bills against any opposition by us or anyone who knew anything about them. I hope we .shall hear no more of the great work those bon. gentleman have done in the ten days they have been in office. I do not propose to go into the general policy of the hon. gentleman,at the head of the Government. I might indicate great inconsistencies between his statement the other day and the statements he has repeatedly made as leader of the Opposition, but I think I have adduced amply sufficient reasons to induce hon. members to pass the resolution of which I had the honor to give notice. I have shown, and no doubt the hon. gentleman opposite will be able to disprove it, that he does not possess the confidence of the House. He has obtained his position not only not by the vote of the majority of this House, but he has not the absolute confidence of even a majority of his own party so far as to be able to command the services of the best men Of that party. I have shown that if the hon. gentleman was sincere in the point of his statement upon which belaid so much stress, namely, that the finance was to be thoroughly sifted and discussed, and that the public works were to be carried out with vigor and economy, he has entirely failed to takeanystepsinthatdirection; that by conferring the appointment upon one man he has made it impossible that the great object of his desire can be given effect to. I have shown that the accusation that we were precipitate in bringing forward this motion is without any ground,—that, in fact if we were not prepared to waste the time of honorable gentlemen to a much greater extent than has already been done, we were bound, with the least possible delay, to find out whether those honorable gentlemen had the confidence of the House or not. I trust these reasons will be considered by the House amply sufficient to induce hon. members to support the resolution which I have the honor now to submit. , ~ , Mr. REYNOLDS here moved his amendment. , , , k Sir GEORGE GREY then spoke as follows : Sir, —A curious sensation stole over mo during the delivery of the speech of the honorable member for Egmont. I came here expecting to have to reply to a speech of a very different character. I felt in fact that X was a gentle lamb drinking at a stream of water, and that there was a great wolf stirring up the stream and accusing mo of doing so, and determining to gobble me up if ha could. He seemed determined to find some fault, but I had no fear that I should not be able ’to resist his attacks ; and I have no fear now. The hon. member for Egmont has made

the accusation that I have not been placed on these benches by the votes of a majority this House. Sir, it is not at all unusual when an hon.. gentleman is requested to form a Ministry, that he should decline the principal place himself, and select some other gentleman as chief. That is a constitutional rule, a rule which is constantly observed, and one which ■was followed on the present occasion. Anotner ground of objection was, that I was unable to obtain the assistance ef the greatest minds of my own party. To that I reply that the statement is absolutely inaccurate. It is perfectly true that I was unable to obtain the assistance of the hon. member for Akaroa; but that gentleman declined to join mo for reasons which were honorable to himself, and for which I have no reason to bo ashamed —(Mr. Montgomery : Hear, hear.) —Sir George Grey proceeded : With regard, sir, to the other honorable gentlemen who composed the party with which I have the honor to act, it must be known to nil the inhabitants of Isew Zealand that they combine amongst them a vast amount of ability, knowledge, and parliamen;tary power. On© or two of those gentlemen ■did decline to join the Government at present, for reasons honorable to themselves, honorable :to me, honorable to this House, and honorable to the country. They said they had recently become members of the party, and that it Should never be said that they had_ determined to help me in carrying out my views from a desire to take office. They declined solely on that account. Contrast that conduct, sir, with the conduct of some of those hoa. gentlemen who occupy the Opposition benches. Other hon. gentlemen belonging to my party told me that they -desired not to take office, in order that I might, if possible, ultimately constitute a Government composed of gentlemen from every provincial district of New Zealand. They told me, sir, that my enemy the great wolf would try to swallow me up if I took any other course. The one universal thing said to me by all these gentlemen was this^ — “ Neglect us ; we ask for nothing ; we desire the -welfare of the country ; don't put us into office, and thus disappoint the inhabitants of other portions of the colony, who might see their own districts not represented in the Government. All the ability we have shall be at your service, whether in office or out of office. What we wish for is the prosperity of New Zealand, not office for ourselves.” The hon. member for Auckland City East was especially alluded to. That, sir, was his language amongst others. Contrast that conduct with the conduct of aime hon. members on the Opposition side of the House, who yearn for office at any sacrifice of principles. Sir, I am glad this great occasion has arisen, because many questions of importance will now be considered—questions which must form precedents for all time to come. The House is ranging itself into two great parties, and the first question to be determined is what constitutes political honor, what constitutes political honesty, what examples during the debate are to be given to the country at large and to all future ages. Upon those benches and on that side of the House sit hon. gentlemen who, unasked by me, pledged themselves in solemn terms and in friendly language to give me their support throughout this session. I am told they intend to break those pledges. I do not believe it ; - I do not believe that such political baseness exists in this House. There are other gentlemen who at meetings of the party (I was not present myself, because I took no part in these proceedings)—but I am assured that there are other gentlemen who at those meetings pledged themselves to support throughout the present session any Government that might take the places occupied by the hon. member for Egmont and his party. I will not believe that those gentlemen will depart from those pledges until I see them in the lobby against me. Let the question be determined what is to constitute political honor, political honesty, and political morality. We have to determine what is to be the example to be given to New Zealand for all time. That is the one great question which must be decided on this occasion. Then, sir, there are other great questions to be decided. Honorable gentlemen on my side of the House who think with me have been taunted with what are called tlieir conservative principles. Sir, we care nothing for such taunts. We are determined to establish a policy for the people—a policy for the country at large. We have resolved that in New Zealand there shall be a party of progress, and not a party of conservative notions. Sir, what is conservatism ? It is a time-honored institution, a difference of rank established by the usage of centuries ; an institution composed of all those elements which constitute conservatism in a great monarchical country. With them conservatism is a conservatism of place and power, (a conservatism of privileges which they have usurped to themselves above their fellow- subjects in this country), conservatism of acquiring place, land, and public wealth. Let them strive to preserve that, let them strive to keep their fellow-countrymen out of a due share of the influence and distinction of public affairs in this House; and we will try to allow the people to have a fair share of the direction of public affairs. For years they have withheld advantages from their fellow-countrymen out of a due share of the influence and direction of public affairs in this House; and we will try to allow the people to have that fair share of the direction of public affairs. For years they have withheld advantages from their fellow-men, and heaped those on their friends. I will strive to do my best to initiate a policy by which equal laws may exist in this country for all; laws under which every family may hope to obtain its home and its land, and under which the best of the land of the country shall not be given to the friends of the Government. A new era is dawning, new times are coming, and new men ' will soon be found in this House, new principles will prevail, and I believe in New Zealand will be established that great principle that all men have equal rights in the property and in the lands of the colony—that the lands are the property of all, and not the property of a party of squatters. And there are in this country thousands who will leap to their feet and aid myself and my friends in the struggle we are engaged in. I da not fear that when we appeal, as I think will be necessary, to the constituents, but what one triumphant voice shall shout to me the reply, “ If you are told you have not been elected' by a majority of this House—if you are told you have not the voice of a majority of the House—you shall be elected by the majority ©f the people of New Zealand; you shall be supported by their voices and their authority iu claiming for them' those rights to which they are entitled.” I feel sure that the time is coming when these principles must be carried out. I care nothing for the taunts we have heard this night. I know the objects we have in view are great. I feci sure that they will commend themselves to all liberal minds, not only at the present day, but in all time to comej and I am contented patiently and earnestly to struggle on for these ends, certain that in due time they will he attained. The position I hold is not an enviable one. We have been taunted amongst other things with not having rapidly developed our financial system, and the hon. gentleman went on to say that wo should deserve well of the whole country if we put the accounts beforotheiuhabitants of New Zealand in a simpler form, if we placed the accounts of the colony before the people in such a form that they might be understood by all, and he admitted that he himself had failed in so doing ; but when my hon. friend the other night described accurately the hon. gentleman’s financial scheme, he expressed extreme anger with him for having used accurate language. Sir, the accounts of this dountry are understood by none,and can he understood by none except experts. The system is a system of transfers from one account to another, in such a way that in a whole they are incomprehensible to any but a person who is really an expert in reference to them, and the public of New Zealand have been greatly misled by the accounts put before them—accounts absolutely unintelligible. On one occasion lately, while trying to understand some of these accounts, I came across the Ih-ovincial Liabilities Account, and found set down sums ns provincial receipts which were really not receipts at all.', In some instances sums borrowed out ’ of loan balances, bor-

rowed out of loan. Many of the accounts are absolutely delusive—absolutely deceptive, except to an expert—and even to an expert would be incomprehensible, unless each item were taken and resolved into its separate -component parts, which would be an extremely difficult task. -Can it he maintained that if I was to be relieved from a task of this kind that to me it would he anything but a great relief? Can it be imagined that I would willingly jump into a gulf of trouble of this nature? Sir, I have no wish for office to gratify personal ends. I have been taunted with thepolitioal character of the gentlemen who- compose the Government. Sneers have been levelled at them. Sir, I believe the Colonial Treasurer will be found fully adequate to the task he has had afforded him. His knowledge of accounts is great, his integrity is great, his industry is unbounded —and of such meu iu a short time the greatest and best statesmen have been formed. I may refer to Earl Spenser, formerly Lord Althorpe, as an example of that ; but what did the hon. member for Egmont know of accounts a short time ago ?, He had no education in finance aa my hon. friend has had. I believe if the House had patiently given opportunities to the hon. gentlemen who are with me to develope their industry and their ability, which each undoubtedly possesses, I believe it would have -been found that they would have performed their duties, not only to the satisfacfation of the Xfouse, but to the satisfaction of the country. To give the House an idea of the difficulties we have to meet, I have prepared a short statement of the liabilities which must be instantly dealt with, and I shall read this to the House, when they may see what is the difficulty under which New Zealand is straggling. These large sums must immediately be raised in some way or other. There was, according to the statement of the late Colonial Treasurer, a necessity for a loan of .£2,000,000 for the completion of public works and the redemption of the guaranteed debentures. Then for additional provincial liabilities unprovided lor at the present time it is ascertained that £200,000 will required, but that sum must be swelled to a still greater amount. There are Treasury bills outstanding to the amount of £832,000. There is a deficiency of revenue as estimated by the late Colonial Treasurer of £167,000 to be met. Then it is absolutely necessary to obtain this session the means of raising a further sum of £1,000,000 to repay loans by the Bank of New Zealand and Bank of New South Wales. It is also necessary to obtain a sum of £IOO,OOO by the Ist of January next to meet a loan incurred on account of the Lyttelton Harbor. There is also £200,000 required to meet further public works and Supplementary Estimates of the late Government ; and we shall have to provide another £200,000 to meet discount on the two million loan, if issued at 41 per cent., assuming the bonds bring £9O net. That gives us a total of £4,699,u00 which has to be raised at once. But in addition there has been borrowed from the Public Works Loan Account £300,000. I am satisfied that that sum will also have to be provided for in some way other than out of the Consolidated Fund. It is simply a floating debt. The late Government were authorised to borrow £300,000 from the Public Works account, and what has been done? That sum having been borrowed and used last year it was repaid into the Public Account on the 30th* June, so the accountwassquaredand the amount disappears. But early in July and August the sum was re-borrowed. The fact is, it was not a payment at all. It was a nominal payment, nothing but that. It was paid in, and borrowed again instantly. Then there is another account which must be brought under the notice of the House, and that is claims of which the House has never been informed ; but claims for extra works and other contracts for railways amount to £171,237. It may be said that the whole of that amount may not be found to he due and payable. I have only to say this, that the very first item contested, £BOO, was found to be wholly owing, every penny of it; and I believe that nearly the whole £171,000 will be required, or at anyrate there will be a heavy charge against the colony on this account. I have thus further to add, in reference to the statement I have made iu regard to our liabilities, that in point of fact they include a debt of a most objectionable character. They includes what I may call a floating debt. Iu that I include £1,000,000 borrowed from the banks, £332,000 Treasury bills, and £IOO,OOO required for the Lyttelton Harbor. That is a floating debt of nearly £2,000,000. Now I ask the attention of the House to this most important matter. What has been done in this ? The Government havegone into the open market and iu the open market have raised loans at a comparatively low rate of interest ; and the Government have withheld from the persons from whom they so borrowed the fact that they were raising from private individuals, or iu what I may call the “ close ” market, large sums of money at a high rate of interest. When that fact comes to be known, I am afraid our credit must be seriously shaken. In fact it is a system of finance of a most objectionable kind. With regard especially to the Treasury bills, it will be within the recollection of the House that it authorised £400,000 to be borrowed on Treasury bills, the agreement being that these Treasury bills were to be repaid rapidly in succeeding years from sums saved out of the Consolidated Fund. That expectation not only has not been fulfilled, hut from that time they have on gone borrowing on Treasury bills. There is absolutely no end to it, and one of the first things to be done is to pay off these in some manner. This system of borrowing in tho open market at a low rate of interest, and from private persons at high rate of interest, is a serai-barbaric system. It is a system of a most discreditable kind, and one which ought not to be allowed. The House will see by the statement wh’ch I have put before it that- there are most serious pecuniary difficulties, which must be met. To ascertain the facts which I have put before the House was no easy matter. It is very difficult indeed to ascertain from the accounts in the form they are presented to the House the material facts connected with the finance of this colony. We have clearly ascertained our position. We have devised a scheme of finance which I hoped we could have presented to the House. I believe thafsystem of finance would have been satisfactory to this House ; that it would have beeu accepted with pleasure by the country at largo; that the foreign creditor would have recognised in it our determination to meet our liabilities in the most proper manner. I believe that the reductions which wo would have shown could be carried out would have satisfied the House that once they placed us in a stable position we could vastly reduce the. existing expenditure. I think that we could have shown that a system of taxation would be established which would be fair, and would relieve the people fj;om many of the burdens under which they now labor, and would place equally on all shoulders tho exact proportion of public burdens which they should fairly bear. I believe all that could have been done, but tho hon. gentleman is pleased, and his friends are pleased, in their avidity for office, not to wait even for a few days to see if what we proposed was objectionable. They rush in at once to stop what is going on. I am satisfied they do not wish that a more liberal system than their own should have the approval of the House. They do not desire that a policy which would have put them to the blush should have been raised up iu this country, and they would rather stifle the iufant at the moment of its birth than allow it to attain a magnitude which would prevent their return to office. I would have shrunk with shame from some of the expedients which some of the late Government have had recourse to in reference to, those sums which they proposed to take without the authority of law from the Land Fund of Canterbury and Otago. I would have scorned to have been a party to such a transaction. I would have known that in those provinces every individual who bought land and paid his money for that land, had so paid his money under the pledge that it would bo expended upon certain public works , which would give value to theproporty he had purchased, and that the fulfillment of that pledge was a solemn contract entered into,with’'him by tho people of this country. - I would have scorned to break a contract of that kind. People who would do that would not hesitate afterwards to break faith with tho outer creditors. If

they would plunder the people at home, what safety is there for those abroad ? The contract was as solemn a one as could be entered into : so much money was paid upon such a consideration. I say, fulfil _ this condition with every man who so paid his money. Myself and my friends who sit on these benches with me have determined to set our faces against proceedings of that kind. We would have fulfilled our resolution ; and I feel satisfied that if time had been given us, the solution we proposed for this difficult problem would have been a satisfactory one. If the House can select better men to occupy our seats, by all means do so ; and I say if they prove their capacity for solving this difficult problem in a proper manner—if they propose to do so in a way that is fair and honest, plundering no one, and securing to all their rights—then I will cheerfully and gladly assist them in such measures, whoever they may be. There are one or two other subjects I ought to allude to. During the short period of time we have been in office we have devoted our attention to questions pt native policy. That was, if possible, in a more tangled state than the finances of the country. What was the condition of the native question when we took office ? People were murdered even in the neighborhood of towns. The murderers fled to various places of refuge, and the Government dared not speak upon the matter, but meekly held their tongues. Prisoners were rescued where they were taken, and the Government were powerless to help the greater portion of the country. Even during the few days we have been in office the natives have evinced confidence in the Government, which would have enabled us to put a speedy end to such a state of things with the assistance of the native population themselves. Thelite Government were enabled to carry roads through, a great part of the country. From communications I have received, I believe that in a few months we could have carried roads through a great portion of the country from which they are now excluded, and that we could do so with the intelligent consent and hearty concurrence of the native population,We believe we could have accomplished much in that direction if we had been allowed to follow out the course that we should have recommended to the attention of the House. There is one thing further I wish to say. I firmly hold the belief that when you are saddling enormous burdens on the people of this colony—burdens iu the shape of public debt which are heavier than those borne by any other country, in the world —they should have conferred upon them equal electoral rights. The system of rotten boroughs or small constituencies returning members should be done away with. The duration of this House of Representatives should be fairly adjusted, so as as to bring it always under the control of public opinion. By no other means can you hold that the inhabitants of New Zealand are bound to provide the interest and principal of the enormous debt which has been entailed upon them in direct violation of the principle that taxation and representation on a fair basis must go hand in hand. I am confident that with the assistance of this House, and with the aid which would have been given to us throughout the whole of New Zealand, within a very short period of time such a system as I speak of would have been established. What am I told' by many persons is the main reason why I am to be prevented from attempting to carry out views of this kind ? I am told here, especially amongst hou. members for Wellington, and also amongst other hon. gentlemen, that I am held to be what is called a separationisfc, and that no confidence is to be placed in me. By all means I am to he dislodged from position and power ; and notwithstanding the violation of any pledge they may have entered into, they hold themselves justified iu doing this on account of my being known to hold their views. To that I answer, that the study of history, the study of the interests of mankind in large experience of public affairs continued through- many years an intimate acquaintance with many of the greatest minds that have existed iu my lifetime, have convinced me that the system which is most conducive to tlie benefit of a nation is Federalism, which is by no means separation, such as they pretend. Devoutly holding these, views, am I to be silent upon the subject ? No, sir ; but this I do say, that I know that the duty of a good citizen, and the duty of a wise man, is to submit himself to the form of Government which prevails for the time in the country in which he lives, and to do his utmost whether he approves of its institutions or not, to make those institutions as beneficial as possible for the country. And I say that to ostracise a man because, sacrificing his own views in this way, he works for the good of the country under the form of Government which he finds existing —to ostracise him because he is known to believe that a better form of Government could be introduced, is an unmauly and unwise course to pursue. Why, what made the greatness of England, at frequent periods, but the fact that meu who served their country came forward to work under institutions which perhaps they even abhorred? What would have become of Great Britain in the time of Cromwell if men by no means favorable to the form of Government set up had not iu the navy and army, and in every position in the State, struggled to render their country great, and did really at that very time raise it up to a pitch of greatness it had never before attained ? What would have been thought of those persons who, striving to drive men from their duty because it was known that they entertained views on which the existing form of Government was not based, proposed to shut them out from all public employment, and from doing their duty to the country in which they lived ? Hon. gentlemen may try in that way to ostracise me; they may try to prevent me from saving New Zealand, But every effort they make in that direction, every pledge which - they break, and which they solemnly made to me, will only endear me more to the people of this country, will ensure speedily my return to power if I am driven from it, with the power of carrying out views and intentions which the great majority of the people will recognise as those on which the greatness of their country ana their own future welfareand happiness depend. Feeling that, I unhesitating. '“•cept the challenge tho hon. gentleman has given me, and let this House decide as they please, I shall feel I have done my duty. . The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE rose to explain his reasons for voting for the motion of the hon. member for Egmont. He had opposed the late Government because its finance was improvident—that it ran into debt too rapidly. The finance was of a shifty nature -to tide over from year to year with no permanent object in view. He thought a mistake had been made in abolishing provincial institutions,' instead of modifying them. He also believed that they had made great mistakes in their Public Works administration. It was for these reasons he opposed them. The object of the Opposition was to place men of moderate views on the Treasury benches. The Middle Party was disappointed. Ho had distinctly stated that he would not accept Sir George Grey as his leader, .but that he would not oppose his Ministry if the policy was not repugnant to the cardinal principles which lie (Mr. Gisborne) believed essential to tho good government of the colony. He regarded the unity of the colony as a cardinal principle ; but'every-Minister on the Treasury benches had last session pledged himself to separation by voting for the motion of the hon. member for the Thames, and also by speaking in its favor. He gave Sir George Grey credit for the sincerity of his opinions, and although he might not bring down a Bill to effect separation this session or i next, he would work indirectly in that direction. The hon. member for tho Thames had said that night that for the proper government of the colony it -was necessary that the administration of affairs should be grasped in tho hands of one Government. When he contrasted that expression with the utterances of the hon. member last year, he could not-Help feeling disgust. He bad promised to supportthepresent Ministry,but onthe condition that its policy was not repugnant to his views, lie would vote for the motion, because ho could not trust the present Ministry to carry out those cardinal principles which

were esseatial to .the good government of the colony . , Mr. MONTGOMERY said the hon. member for Egmont had shown such an eagerness to again sit" on the .Treasury benches that it behoved them to- inquire what he had done when he occupied those benches. The House had declared itself as having no confidence in his Government less than three weeks ago, and what had he done since to regain the confidence of the House'? He (the speaker) then reviewed the financial policy of the late Government, and in reference to the issue of Treasury bills, lie repeated the words of the hon. member for Timaru, that it was a “ sham finance.” The hon. member for Egmont had been less than three years Colonial Treasurer, but in that time the debt of the colony had been increased by £6,800,000, and yet he had told the House that it was a careful and far-seeing finance. He contrasted the position of New Zealand with that of New South Wales in the Home money market, and quoted figures to prove that the credit of the latter colony stood much higher than the former. The hon. member for Egmont had broken every pledge he had made to gain abolition. He spoke at some length of the want of policy evinced by the late. Government in abandoning the Native Lands Bill, the Charitable Aids Bill, and the Settlement Advances Bill. The hon. member had shown himself grossly unfit to lead the House. He trusted hon. members would follow the constitutional practice of allowing a new Government time to bring down a policy. After Dr. Wallis and Mr. De Lautouk hud addressed the House at some length on the side of the Government, Mr. SHRIMSKI moved the adjournment of the debate. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS supported the adjournment. Major ATKINSON agreed, on the understanding that the division would take place .on Monday next. The debate was adjourned until half-past 2 o’clock on Monday. . The House rose at 12.25.