PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5128, 30 August 1877, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, August 29. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. REPORT. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN laid on the table, by order of his Excellency, the 18th annual report of the Post Office Department. NOTICES OF MOTION. Several notices of motion were given for various dates by the Hons. Messrs. Holmes, Mantell, and Major Richmond. MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. The Hon. Mr. NURSE asked for, and obtained, leave to move without notice, —That a message be sent to the House of Representatives to obtain permission for Mr. Rolleston to attend and give evidence before the Waste Lands Committee of the Legislative Council. —The motion was carried. The Hon. Mr. NURSE asked for, and obtained, leave to move without notice that a message be sent to the House of Representatives to request permission for Messrs. Sheehan and Hodgkinson to attend and give evidence before the Public Petitions Committee of the legislative Council.—The motion was subsequently carried. The Hon. Mr. Robinson moved, and the Hon. .Mr. Buckley seconded (by permission oh the Council and without notice), that the Council at its rising do adjourn till to-morrow week.—The Hon. Colonel Kenny opposed the motion, and the Hon. Dr. POLLEN expressed a hope that it would not be accepted by the Council.—The Hons. Messrs. Paterson, Mantell, Colonel Whitmore, Captain Fraser, and Dr. Menzies, having spoken, the motion was lost on a division by a majority of 3. MESSAGES. A message was received from his Excellency the Governor covering the Crossed Cheques Bill, with certain amendments, for the consideration of the Council.—The Hon. Dr. Pollen moved that the consideration of this message be made an order of the day for next sitting day.—Agreed to. A message was also received by telegraph from the Mayor of Invercargill, stating that a meeting of nearly 200 ratepayers had expressed their unanimous approval of the conduct of the Municipal Council of that town in promoting an Act asking authority to raise the sum of £14,000 for extending the gasworks. -MOTIONS. The Hon. Mr. NURSE moved, —That there be laid on the table a return of what sums of money, in the shape of sporting licenses, have been paid or are still due to the different Acclimatisation Societies.—Carried. The Hon. Mr. HART moved,' —That there be laid upon the table of the Council, before the close of the session, a summarised statement of the revenues and expenditure of each of the late provinces of New Zealand from their coming into existence until their abolition, comprising, as near as may be, the particulars contained in an account relating to the late province of Canterbury, published in the Lyttelton Times of Hth iust. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said there would be no objection to furnishing the statement asked for. It might take some time to prepare, but it should be laid on the table as soon as possible.—The motion was then carried. The Hon. J. JOHNSTON, in the absence the Hon. Sir P. D. Bell, moved, —That one week’s.leave of absence be granted to the Hon. Mr. Hall. —Agreed to. ORDERS OP THE DAY. In resuming' the adjourned debate on the question,—That the Council be informed what steps, if any, have been taken by the Government to carry out the resolution of the Council, passed in the session of 1875, with regard to the Te Ante College and other educational trusts, the Hoh. Dr. Pollen said that no such agreement for a new lease of the Te Aute College as was said to have been made, had ever been made ; the question had not been considered by the trustees as a body. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to read a letter from the Hon. Mr. Stokes (one of the trustees, who was absent from the colony), to show the state in which affairs as regards the Te Aute estate now stood, and also to show that the school, which was said to be by no means operative, was in a high state of efficiency. The Hon. Dr. Pollen concluded his remarks by observing that, as an impartial man, he considered that a very unfair opinion had been formed of Mr. Williams’ management of the estate, and that, as far as the pecuniary part of the transaction was concerned, he believed Mr. Williams had rather lost than gained money by it.—Several hon. gentlemen having spoken on the question —among them the Hon. Mr. Hart, who corroborated what the Hon. Dr. Pollen had adduced in support of the efficiency of the school —the Hon. Mr. Mantell moved the adjournment of the debate till that day week, which was carried on the voices. HIMATANQI CROWN GRANTS BILL. The-Hon. Dr. POLLEN, in a somewhat lengthy speech, moved the second reading of this Bill, which was carried after a few remarks from the Hon. Mr. Mantell.* The Bill was then ordered to be referred to the Waste Lauds Committee. KAIAPOI NATIVE RESERVES BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved the third reading of this Bill.—The Hon. Mr. Mantell said he . trusted that the Hon. Dr. Pollen would see that this Bill was translated into Maori.—The Hon. Dr. Pollen replied that he would see that'this step was taken, although

he had not himself thought it necessary, as the Bill was of no interest to the natives generally, but merely for the convenience of the Government.—The third reading was then discharged from the Order Paper, and made an order of the day for Friday next. DESTITUTE PERSONS BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee, but progress was soon reported. WELLINGTON CITY RESERVES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill passed through committee, and was reported to the Council with amendments, its third reading, on the motion of the Hon. Mr. Peaeazyn, being fixed for next sitting day. The Council then (at 5 p.m.) adjourned. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, August 29. The House met at half-past two o’clock. The Speaker took the chair. PETITIONS. A number of petitions were piesented and received. ' . TELEGRAM TO THE AGENT-GTNERAL. The Hon. Major ATKINSON laid upon the table a copy of the telegram forwarded to the Agent-General in reference to the Financial Statement lately made by the hon. the Colonial Treasurer. QUESTIONS. In reply to the question put by Mr. Stevens, whether the debenture given to the Bank of New South Wales as security for an advance of £500,000, was made to have a currency of seven years, and, it so, why ?—the Hon. Major Atkinson stated that the time of redemption was purely a matter of arrangement with the bank.

In reply to a question by Mr. Swanson, — asking by what law the various titles of his Excellency the Governor were inserted in Gazette notices, Government advertisements, and other official documents?—it was stated, on the part of the Government, that it was merely following out the custom all over the ‘Empire to insert in full the titles of Governors. MR. BARTON’S PETITION.

Mr. SHEEHAN moved,—That this House do resolve itself jnto a committee of the whole, to consider the petition of George Elliott Barton, and to examine into the truth of the statements made therein, and to decide upon the same. In addressing himself to the motion he referred to the action taken by the Public Petitions Committee. He then read a letter from the petitioner, urging the necessity of his petition being dealt with by a committee of the whole House.

The Hon. Mr. WHITAKEE, in speaking to the motion of Mr. Sheehan, quoted several authorities that went to show how the petition should be dealt with. It was the duty of the Government to point out the course the House should pursue, and it then rested with the House to accept or reject the course submitted. He pointed out that the charges made by Mr. Barton were of a general character, whereas the authorities which he (Mr. Whitaker) quoted from laid it down distinctly that all such charges should be thoroughly specified. Had that been done the House would be able to decide how far the charges made would be borne out by actual facts. He did not think the course suggested by the hon. member for Rodney should be acted upon. He moved that the order of the 14th August, 1877, receiving Mr. Barton’s petition, be discharged. He concluded by stating that Mr. Barton’s petition did not contain charges of a sufficiently grave and specified nature to warrant the House in causing the removal of the Judges, or either of them. He concluded by moving as an amendment that the order of the . day concerning the matter be discharged. Mr. MACANDREW asked for the orderreferred toby the hon. the Attorney-General to be read.—lt was read accordingly. On the question being put, The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE rose and said the authorities quoted by the hon. the At-torney-General were not parallel with the one in point. He did not think the petition should be rejected merely on the ground that the charges it contained against the Judges were vague. In his opinion these were not sufficient grounds for throwing back the petition on the petitioner’s hands. Mr. MAO ANDREW concurred in the vie w.expressed ;bj the, hon. member for Tetara. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER said he had endeavored as far as possible to assimilate the procedure of the House, with respect to the question then before it, to that practised by the House of Commons.

Mr. THOMSON thought the proper method of dealing with the case was to have a committee of about seven hon. members, who would be empowered to take evidence, at which the two Judges could be examined, and also the petitioner. He would therefore at the earliest opportunity move as an amendment that such a committee be , appointed, and that they should report to the House whether or not a prima facie case was established. Mr. TRAVERS could not see anything that would justify the House in actually discharging the petition of Mr. Barton. He (Mr. Travers) thought it would have been better if the Government had proposed a motion to the effect that in the petition of Mr. George Elliot Barton many of the allegations it contained were not sufficiently specified, and those that were specified if proved would not warrant the removal of the Judges to which it referred. He thought the Hon. the AttorneyGeneral was perfectly justified in communicating with the Judges with respect to the petition. / Mr. MURRAY did not approve of the course proposed by the Hon. the AttorneyGeneral. He (Mr. Murray) trusted the House would not sanction the summary dismissal of any petitions presented to that House that were couched in proper language. Mr. HUNTER said the House was in the position of a Grand Jury in this matter. It was for them to say whether a, prima facie case had or had not been made out. As a Grand Juryman he would say “No bill.” He thought there was nothing disclosed to justify the Judges being put upon their trial. Mr. SHEEHAN reviewed at considerable length the allegations already referred to in Mr. Barton's petition. Mr. BUTTON characterised the allegations against the Judges as frivolous in the extreme. °Mr. REES hoped the House would not discharge the petition, at all events in the summary manner indicated by the motion of the Hon. the Attorney-General. Mr. BAREE did not wish to refer to the legal aspect of the case. He thought it was a most exceptional one aid the petitioner had no other course open to him but bringing it before the House in the manner he had done. He thought the Judges of the Supreme Court of the colony should be above all suspicion. He thought it would be unfair to discharge the petition until it was discussed by the House.

Mr. HARPER could not agree with the remarks that fell from the last speaker. The petitioner himself must have known that the charges contained in his petition were of such a character as necessitated their being brought before the House. Mr. STOUT said he would have preferred that the discussion on this petition should have rested among those hon. members who were not actively engaged at the Bar, as those so engaged by entering into the debate on this question might have their motives misconstrued. He was in favor of the course suggested of a select committee hearing the evidence. He approved of the course proposed by the hon. member for Olutha (Mr. Thomson). Mr. ROLLESTON said he would vote for the amendment of the hon. the AttorneyGeneral.

The question was then put, and the amendment of the Hon. Mr. Whitaker was carried on the voices.

Mr. THOMSON' moved as follows:—That a committee consisting of seven members be appointed to take the evidence of the petitioner and the two Judges referred to on the specific charges made- in the petition, and report to the House whether, in their opinion, the grounds of the complaint are made out prima facie, and justify the removal of the Judges from the bench. The motion was lost on a division—Ayes, S 7 ; noes, 29. NATIVE MARRIAGES VALIDATION BILL. The second reading of this Bill was postponed until that day week.

LOCAL OPTION BILL. The Hon. Mr. FOX, after having addressed the House for some little time, proceeded to review the arguments that had been advanced against certain clauses of the Bill. In proceeding to discuss the main points of the Bill, he stated that the number of arrests of drunkards was no criterion, as that depended upon the zeal exercised by the police. With regard to the question of compensation he referred to the arguments used by the hon. member for Avon. That gentleman asked what trade was ever treated by the law in the manner in which it was proposed by the Local Option Bill to deal with the trade of the licensed victuallers ? His (Mr. Fox’s) answer to that was, what other trade inflicted so much harm as the publican’s ? what other trade was carried on by the same system of issuing annual licenses ? That was the trade par excellence the most dangerous. He did not think that the followers of such a trade were in any way entitled to compensation if the law decided to abolish their trade. He then passed on to the subject of adulteration of liquor, which he denounced at considerable length. In referring to the inferior accommodation so often obtained at publichouses, he read an extract from the travels of a German lady, who had made a tour of the colony some time ago, and in many instances found the accommodation afforded to be of the most wretched description. • Drunkenness and gambling were the leading features that characterised each public-house. In conclusion, he said if the arguments he had advanced would not find weight with the House, they would at all events find weight with the country. If the measure did not succeed in passing the House this session, he was quite prepared to persist in bringing it forward session after session until the object desired was attained. He would not, he stated, submit to any provisions, under any circumstances, being introduced to grant compensation to licensed victuallers. As regarded the boundaries of licensing districts, the criticisms that had been bestowed upon that part of the subject were in many respects perfectly justifiable. He had heard rumors of additions being intended to be made to the Bilk As to * the suggestion under this head made by the hon. member for the city of Wellington, relating to the alteration in the licensing laws, he (Mr. Fox) would leave that in the hands of the committee. For himself he was not inclined to-meddle with the police department as regarded the licensing law. Mr, BEES addressed the House, and reviewed the speech of the last speaker. He (Mr. Rees) did not think it at all possible that' such a state of things could be arrived at as an absolute prohibition of the sale of fermented and spirituous liquors. Considering, therefore, that such a step was by no means practicable, the next best, thing to be done was to get as near as possible to the attainment of the object desired ; and with that in view, the first thing to be attained should be the abolition of the bar trade. He would do his utmost in facilitating the objects intended by the Bill while in committee. Among other revisions required in the Bill, he believed that the Licensing Commissioners should be elected by the people. Mr. BALLANOE rose to explain a misapprehension that prevailed in the mind of the Hon. Mr. Fox, who imputed to him (Mr. Ballance) a want of candor in quoting certain statistics that were known to be inaccurate. He (Mr. Ballance) wished to state that the figures used by him and those referred to by Mr. Fox were totally distinct. The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE spoke in favor of granting compensation to publicans. If; he said, the publicans committed no infraction of the law, they deserved the same recognition as was accorded to the most virtuous of citizens. The publican entered into a contract, and according to usage was entitled to .the expectancy of a renewal of his license.

Mr. V- ALLIS rose in reply to the remarks made by Mr. Fox relative to him (Mr. Walk’s) having broken faith with his constituency through the action he had taken in reference to the Local Option Bilk Mr. Wallis denied strongly that he had ever done so. He stated that. the speech delivered by the Hon. Mr. Fox on the Local Option Bill was the most intemperate speech he had ever heard made. The language used was wildly intemperate compared to that which had fallen from speakers, at the licensed victuallers meeting. Turning to the question of compensation, he (Mr. Wallis) considered it as a matter of honor and justice that compensation should be given to the publicans. Mr. JOYCE replied to the criticism bestowed by Mr. Fox on his former speech on this Bill.

Mr. SWANSON believed the publican would have a perfectly fair claim for compensation if his license were refused on the grounds laid down in the Bill. The motion was then put and carried for the House going into committee on the Local Option Bill. The usual adjournment of half an hour then took place, when the House went into committee on the Bill. The second clause was then discussed, and was amended so as to read thus : That at any time after the passing of this Act, it shall be lawful for fifty or more adult persons, male or female, residing and entitled to vote as hereinfter provided within any part of any licensing district. The remainder of the clause was under discussion until the House rose at 12.30 a.m.