PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5122, 23 August 1877, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, August 22. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. REPORTS. The Hon. Major RICHMOND brought up a report from " the Joint Library Committee, and also three reports from the Joint Committee of Both Houses on Bills, NOTICES OF MOTION. Notices of motion for.next sitting day were given by the Hons. Mr. Mantell, Major Richmond, and Mr. Nurse ; and for Friday next, by the Hons. Mr. Buckley, Sir F. D. Bell, and Mr. Lahmanh. QUESTIONS. A question by the Hon. Mr. BbCKLEY was allowed to lapse in the absence of that gentleman,—ln reply to the Hon. Captain Fraser, the Hon. Dr. Pollen said the Government had no objection to furnish a return of the number of persons who have taken advantage of the Forest Act of 1871 and 1872, showing the names of such persons, and the extent of land so obtained by each individual, which return should be shortly laid on the table. IMPREST SUPPLY ACT, 1877. A message was received from the House of Representatives covering the Imprest SupplyAct, 1877; subsequently the measure wentthrough all its stages and was passed. ’ MOTIONS. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN asked for and obtained leave to introduce the Himatanga Crown Grants Act, 1877. The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be printed ; its second reading, on the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen, being fixed for Tuesday next. The Hon. Mr. RUSSELL moved, —That the Council be informed what steps, if .any, have been taken by the Government to carry out the resolutions of the Council, passed in the session of 1875, with regard to the Te Ante College and other educational trusts. —Considerable discussion on this motion ensued, in which the Hons. Dr. Pollen, Mr. G. R. Johnson, Captain Fraser, and Colonel Whitmore took part. The speakers generally seemed to agree that there was great necessity for some immediate action, not only as to Te Aute Reserve, but also as to all other reserves similarly circumstanced.—As the lease of Te Aute Reserve expired early in the ensuing year, the hon G. R. Johnson thought that the Council ought to take steps this session for giving effect to the recommendations of the committee of 1875 on this matter.—On the metion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen, the further consideration of the question was postponed for a week, as the Council seemed to desire information which he was not just at present, in a position to give them. ’ ’ ‘ On the motion of the Hon. Colonel Whitmore, the name of the Hon. Dr. Pollen was added to the committee in the case of Mr. J; A. Wilson. ORDERS OF THE DAY. On the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen, the further consideration of the Forests Bill in committee was discharged from the Order Paper, and made an’order of the day for next day ; and the third reading of the Kaiapoi Native Reserves Bill was postponed till Tuesday next. DESTITUTE PERSONS BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee ; the- second clause having been discussed at length, the Hon. Dr. Pollen moved that its further consideration be postponed for one week.—This was agreed to, and progress having been reported, the Council, at 4.15 p.m., adjourned. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, August 22. The House met at half-past two o’clock; The Speaker took the chair. - PETITIONS AND NOTICES. A number of petitions were presented, among them being three in favor of the Local Option Bill, and several notices of motion were given, MB. BARTON’S PETITION. Mr. KELLY, Chairman of the Public Petitions committee, brought up the report on the petition of Mr. George Elliott Barton* which recommended that, considering the large number of petitions now before them, and the serious charges contained in Mr. G. E. Barton’s petition for the removal of Chief Justice Prendergast and Mr. Justice Richmond, the petition should be referred to a special committee of the House, such committee to consist of Sir George Grey, the Hon. Mr. Stafford, the Hon. Mr. Bowen, the Hon. Mr. Fox, and Mr. Stevens.

Mr. SHEEHAN’agreed that, with the large amount of work before the Public Petitions Committee, they could not deal properly with the petition of Mr. Barton, but he contended that they should simply have referred it back to the House, without recommending any course to be pursued. The report of the committee was read, and ordered to lie on the table. QUESTIONS. Questions on subjects of purely local character referring to other parts of the colony were asked, and were duly answered by the Government. RILLS INTRODUCED. The Native Marriages Validation Bill and the Riverton Harbor and Roadstead Band Endowment Bill were introduced, and read a first time. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON THE QUESTION OF TAXATION. Mr. BALLANCE resumed the debate on this subject. He had watched the progress of the discussion with great interest, and thought it must be apparent that the time had come when the colony was entering upon a new era. Having referred to the changes effected by abolition, he remarked that they had now come to a question scarcely less momentous, namely, the change in the incidence of taxation, which should be received with due care and consideration. The debate on this subject had been devoted largely to criticism of the Treasurer’s and the hon. member for Dunedin, Mr. Stout, had betrayed a decided want of comprehension in reference to the financial position of the colony. He (Mr. Ballance) recognised that the Financial Statement had been carefully drawn up, and as to its figures was very nearly accurate. At the same time, he could not regard with approval the comparison which the Colonial Treasurer had drawn between New Zealand and the mother country. They could not legitimately compare the revenue with the debt of the country—a more fair comparison, would be between the trade and the debt of the country. The trade of New Zealand was eleven times the amount of the interest paid on the public debt, and the trade of England was twenty-four times the amount, taking the exports and imports. That was the fair way. Going to the other colonies, they found that New South Wales and Victoria in particular showed a much more favorable state of affairs than New Zealand did. There was one feature in particular in this Statement which he regarded with a certain amount of astonishment: that was the proposal to go into the market now and borrow two millions of money. The hon. gentleman made one great omission in his annual Statement when he did not bring down a statement of the money required to be expended on the public works for their completion, so that he should be able to state, when he went to the London money market in England, that the colony required a certain amount of money for such a purpose; and the money being raised, that was the time for political rest. He fully concurred that the colony required political rest so far as constitutional organic change was concerned —as regards the elective principle of the tipper Chamber, or other great radical changes ; but so far as the subject under consideration by the House was concerned, he did not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer had ever asked for rest with regard to the incidence of taxation, which was a question which should demand yearly consideration. He quite agreed with the member for Wellington City that they could not borrow too much money for reproductive works. Unfortunately, however. New Zealand did not now enjoy the confidence of the London market, as it formerly ’ did, the monetary and commercial newspapers of the

day having expressed distrust in the financial., position of the colony. There was also danger to be apprehended from borrowing small loans in the colonies.; It did not make a favorable impression on the London market, tending as i did to indicate that not having admission to the London market, we were obliged to obtain money from the colonies at a high rate of mterest. With reference to the Treasury bills now nearly due, he was of opinion that the Government ! should have made provision for taking them up during the present year. As to the local subsidies, he protested against the manner in which they had been dealt with. They had no more 'right to he put into the general . Statement than public-house or auctioneers* licenses. He next turned his attension to the tariff, alluding in turn to the speeches of the hon. gentlemen who had during the course of the present debate addressed themselves to the subject. ■ It required, he said, a great amount.of careful consideration, and could not be summarily dealt with. He was opposed to the ad valorem duty ; he would oppose a tax on beer, but not on sugar, which entered largely into an important industry in the colony, such as the manufacture of confectionery, &o. With regard to that great stalking-horse the poor man, the issue was not between that class and the wealthy—it was the small farmers who really required to be considered, and the land fund should be devoted to the encouragement of such a class by giving them roada to their property, which waa the legitimate object of the Public Works policy. He did not approve of Sir George Grey's proposal as to the acreage tax, but ne advocated the tax on income and property; and as for the statement put forth that a property tax would injuriously affect the poor man, those who expressed such a sentiment surely forgot that the employer must be guided by the law of supply and demand ; and in reference to the income tax he showed that it could not possibly have the effect of preventing 1 people sending capital to the colony. It would, as a matter of fact, act rather as an encouragement than a discouragement. In conclusion, he again referred to the necessity of administering the land for the settlement of the colony, saying that £200,000 should have been taken, from the land fund for making roads to the land of the small farmers. The produce of the land must, in the interests of the colony, to a large extent be returned to the land, to the end that the land fund might be conserved for the benefit of the people. _ . Mr. RUSSELL rose and said he wished to say a few words in reply to remarks that fell on Friday afternoon from the hon. member for the Thames, who had stated that he (Mr. Russell) and his family had acquired from the natives in Hawke’s Bay a landed estate to the extent of eighty thousand acres. He wished to remove that impression from the mind of the hon: gentleman. He (Mr. Russell) it was true' .was the, owner of land in Hawke s Bay, but only equal to about an eighth of the area ascribed to him by the hon. member. As to any imputation Of unfairness being cast upon him or his family for getting that would state, and the hon, member for the East Coast, Mr. Karaitiana, representing the natives of Hawke’s Bay, would admit the fact, that he (Mr. Russell) never had, directly, or indirectly, any transaction with the natives in regard to native, land. In addressing his remarks to the subject before the House, he could,, not but notice the frequent allusion made to the “poorer classes.” It had been urged that, owing to the benefits that would accrue to that class alone, many of the Customs duties should be repealed.: He was quite prepared , to vote for the remission of certain duties, but it was not upon these grounds, but because he thought it was a sound policy, and one that would ultimately prove beneficial to the whole colony. He took , exception to the great stress that had. been laid' upon the necessities of the poorer class calling for special provision from the Parlia- . ment. In looking round the House he failed, to see many who had not in their time assisted to swell the poorer class. Nearly every one in the House had emerged from that class, excepting the hon. member for the Thames, who was really the only one that came , to the colony with capital —at all events capital to any extent. So long as a man possessed industry and: strength he had no right to be considered as belonging to the poorer class, for .he had the elements within him of working himself out of that class. He disapproved of hasty action on the part of the House in respect to the important changes then under discussion. He read from a report, showing that in 1845, during Lord Melbourne’s administration in England, that Ministry was ousted by Sir Robert Peel, on a question precisely the same as that before the House, through Lord Melbourne’s endeavoring to get tie measure passed the session of its introduction. With regard to the imposition of a penny a pound upon sugar, he thought that would allow ample protection to any one who wished to embark in the manufacture of that industry. It would be a most important industry to establish, and it would serve as a valuable adjunct for keeping up the rate of wages, as it was during the winter season the beetroot harvest took place. Although he was willing that the duty should be removed from all the necessaries of life,_ it. was questionable whether sugar could be included in that class. It had been said that a very great difficulty existed in obtaining land in suitable areas for farms in this country, and that in consequence of that difficulty numbeiS were leaving for the other colonies. This could scarcely be the case. Large land sales had taken place recently in the South Island, and enormous areas have been disposed of in Canterbury and Otago, and there were still many thousands of acres ready for those desirous of taking them up. Those speculators in land who had acquired large areas were willing to part with it in small portions, for the purpose of settlement, -if purchasers came. In the North Island there were thousands of acres in small blocks, whose owners did not care to utilise them while the prevailing rate of wages remained so high. Instances of this sort had come within his own immediate knowledge. The rate of wages in this colony was thirty-three per cent, higher than in any of the neighboring colonies. Although quite agreeable to imposing a tax on property, he thought that the scheme brought forward by the hon. member for the Thames was a wrong way of dealing with the subject. Taking all things consideration, he thought it would be wise to postpone alteration in the incidence of taxation until next session. Mr. WOOLCOCK said he could not refrain from remarking upon and. criticising to a limited extent some of the observations that had fallen from gentlemen during the discussion. He reviewed the speech delivered by the honorable member, for Wellington, who was of opinion that a duty should be imposed upon, among other necessaries of life, the articles salt and sugar. These, above all articles in general use, should be exempt from Customs duties. The desire should be to relieve the laboring classes and foster the establishment of colonial industries. He differed from the hon. member for Manawatu, who stated that one Of the effects of a change in the incidence of taxation would be to lowertho wages of the laboring man. Though such a decrease would take place, it would be fully counterbalanced by a corresponding reduction in the price of household commodities. One great mistake that prevailed was, attaching too much importance to the rate of wages, and so little to the price of the necessaries of life. He contended that taxation on those articles was nothing more or less than a tax upon the great power by which wealth was produced. The acreage tax he considered exceedingly unfair, as the burden would be unequally borne. He was also opposed to dealing in a hasty and slipshod manner with the fiscal policy of the colony. The debate was interrupted at this point by the adjournment hour. On the House resuming at half-past seven o’clock, the debate on the Local Option Bill, which had been made a special order of the day for half-past seven o’clock, was postponed until the following evening. By resolution, the interrupted debate on the incidence of taxation was then resumed by Mr. Woolcock, who spoke at some length. Mr. BRANDON expressed himself in favor, of an income tax, as it was calculated to press more evenly upon all classes of the community.

Mr. LUSK on rising said he would endeavor to avoid an error which: the previous speakers had fallen into, of not keeping separate the two great questions relating to the incidence of taxation and the Financial Statement. Had this been done before it would have tended in a great measure to curtail the discussion. When he said that at the present time we were entering upon a state of things bearing on the remodelling of ourinstitutions,and were coming to the close of the Immigration and Public Works policy, such a subject as the incidence of taxation should excite attention in very highest degree. The question might e narrowed down to a comparatively simple issue. At. first the motion to alter the taxation of the colony seemed rather an abstract one, but it was, through the ■ amendment of the hon. member for the Thames and the subsequent; motion of the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer, now in the conipass of a very practical measure. Was it. the duty of the Government to bring -down a totally _ new system mf taxation! He thought it was admitted on all sides that it would not be fair to force the Government to bring forward these proposals at the present time. The House generally, he thought, would entertain that view. The discussion, then, was further narrowed down to the question whether it was desirable that those steps should be taken between this and next session. There were two reasons for the necessity of a change in thei incidence of the taxation of, the colony. - The first was that the present system does n t press ■fairly on the different sections of the community ; and secondly, that the present system does not efficiently sppply our wants. He then pointed out how the taxation arising from Customs duties in New Zealand presses more heavily upon the people than in any of the other Australian colonies. He concluded by stating that a comprehensive and liberal system of taxation should be brought forward, to relieve the existing burdens resting upon the people. , . Mr. Murray’s amendment was then put, and a division called for, resulting in ayes, 40 ; noes, 30. The following is the division list Ayes : Atkinson, Bastings, Beetham, Bowen, Burns, Carrington, Cox, Curtis, Douglas, Fitrroy, Fox, Gibbs, Henry, Hunter, Hursthouse. Kelly, Kennedy, Larnach, Lumsden, Manders, McLean. Moorhouse, Morris (teller), Murray-Aynsley, Ormond, Keid, Reynolds, Richmond, Rowe, Seymour, Sharp, Stevens, Sutton, Taiaroa, Tawitti, Teachemakcr. Waaon (teller), Whitaker, Williams, and Woolcock. , jfoES: Baigent, Ballance, Brandon, J. C. Brown, Bryce, De Lautoiu, Dignan, Fisher, Gisborne (teller), Grey, Hislop, Hodgkinson, Lusk, Macandrew, Montgomery, Murray, Nahe, O'Rorke, Pyke, Rees, Seaton, Shrimski, Stout, Swanson, Takaraoana, Thomson (teller), Tole, Travers, Wallis, and R. G. Wood. The Hon. Major ATKINSON then moved his amendment as follows, —- That, iri • the opinion of this House, the incidence of taxation should .be so adjusted as to impose on property a fair shave of the burden entailed on the colony by expenditure on public works, and thereby afford means for the’ reduction of taxes on necessaries ; and that the financial proposals of the Government next session should embody this principle., . Mr. STOUT desired to point out that the amendment put forward by the Government was a peculiar one, and placed the lion,Major Atkinson in a very curious position. In moving the amendment the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer was asking the House to affirm the financial policy for the coming year. He moved, as an addition to the amendment of the Hon.. the Colonial Treasurer,—That Bills shall be prepared during the session, and circulated before the rising of Parliament; and in default of the foregoing resolution being carried out, that the Government forfeit the confidence of this House.

Mr. MONTGOMERY, in speaking to the amendment, defended himself against the .criticisms ;of the member for Timam in his speech on Tuesday night. He pointed out that it was not the figures of the annual -balance-sheet to which he had, referred when questioning the accuracy of the item stated as savings, but to the text of the Statement itself, for which the Colonial Treasurer was responsible.

Messrs. Montgomery, Macandrew, Rees, Burns, Fitzroy, Hodgkinson, Donald Reid, Hislop, Gisborne, De Lantour, and Grey having spoken, Mr. Ptkb moved that the words “and income” be inserted after the word “property” in the amendment of the Hon. Major Atkinson’s. i The Hon. Major ATKINSON assented. Mr. PYKE .moved the adjournment of the debate until half-past two on Friday next. The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved as an amendment, that the debate be adjourned until half-past two this day.—The amendment was carried. The House rose at 1.30 p.m.