PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5121, 22 August 1877, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, August 21. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. PETITIONS. Several petitions were presented by the Hons. Captain Baillie, Messrs. Aclahd and Russell. PAPERS AND REPORTS. ! Various papers and reports were laid on the table by the Hon. Dr, Pollen by order of his Excellency. NOTICES OF MOTION. 1 Several, notices of motion for next sitting day were given by the Hons. Dr. Pollen, Captain Fraser, Messrs. Buckley and Russell. , QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE. ; The Hon. Sir P. D. BELL asked the Hon. Dr. Pollen for information about the petition to the Legislature, requesting the removal of two Judges from the Bench of the colony. ; The Hon. Dr. POLLEN replied that the petition had, on the recommendations of the Speaker and the Attorney-General, been referred to the Public Petitions Committee. He did not know that any further steps had been at present taken or called for. He remarked that originally a petition had been presented to the Government on the subject; but that, before it could be replied to, the petitioner had petitioned the Legislature on' the subject. MESSAGES. A message was received from the House of Representatives, asking for leave (which was granted) for the Hon. Dr. Pollen to attend and give evidence before the Select Committee on Native Affairs. . .I ■ ■ i A message was also received from the same source covering certain Bills. THE WELLINGTON CITY RESERVES AMENDMENT i act; This Bill was read a first time, ordered to be printed, and, on the motion of the Hon. Mr. Phahazyn, its second reading was fixed for Thursday. ■ ■ ; ; THE DUNEDIN DRILL3HED RESERVES ACT. ' ! Thus Bill was read a first time, ordered to be r printed,, and* on ,the; motion of the Hon, Captain Baillie, its second reading was made an order of the day for Tuesday next. 1 THE INVEEOARGLL GAS LOAN ACT. This Bill was read a first time and ordered to be printed. Its second reading, on the motion of the Hon. Dr. Menzies, was fixed forThursday. .. :

NOTICES OP MOTION. Several notices of motion were given for next: sitting day by the Hons. Dr. Pollen, Colonel Whitmore, Captain Frasor, Mr. Russell, and Mr. Buckley. MOTIONS. In the absence of the Hon. Mr. Hall, the Hon. Mr. Guay moved, and it was carried, — That as part 7 of the Public Works Act, 1876, places public drains in a county under the control and management of the county council, and as . therefore no provision for such control. and management exists in those portions of the colony in which the whole of the Counties Act is not in operation, it is desirable this Council should be informed what steps will be'proposed by the Government during the' present session for the purpose of remedying this defect in the existing law.. , ! , The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE moved, — That, a select committee be appointed to enquire into and report upon the circumstances attending.the dismissal from the public service of Mr. John Alexander Wilson, of the Native Department, the committee to consist of the Hons. Sir Francis Dillon Bell, Mr. Randall Johnson, Captain Fraser, Mr. Buckley, Mr. Paterson, Mr. Mantell, and the mover, with jiower to call for persons, papers, and records ; report to be brought up in a fortnight.—The Hons. Dr. Pollen and Dr. Menzies having spoken, the mover replied, and the motion (as amended by the substitution of the Word “ removal” for the word “dismissal,” and by leaving out the name of the Hon. . Mr. Mantel!, for the purpose of subsequently inserting in its place the name of the Hon. Dr. Pollen) was carried. THE DESTITUTE PERSONS BILL. . , . After a discussion by the Hons. Dr. Pollen, Mr. Bucldey, Dr. Menzies, and Colonel Whitmore the second reading of this Bill was carried, and it was - ordered to be committed presently. 1 THE FORESTS BILL was discharged from the Order Paper, and , made an order of the day for next sitting day. ; THE KAIAPOI NATIVE RESERVES BILL after considerable discussion 'by the Hons. Dr. Pollen, Mr. Mantell, Captain Fraser, and Sir F. D. Bell, passed its second reading, and was ordered to be committed presently. . | The Council then went into committee, but progress was shortly afterwards reported, and the Council adjourned till next day.

HOUSE OF

i Tuesday, August 21. ; The Speaker took the chair at halfpast two o’clock. . _ PETITIONS, i A large number of petitions were presented, one in favor of the Local Option Bill being laid on the table by the Hon. William Fox. ( . ‘ NOTICES. , ; Mr. O’RORKE gave notice af his intention to move for amendments in certain clauses of the Public Libraries Act. f , , Hr. SHEEHAN gave notice that he would move,, on the motion to go into Committee of Supply, that all the railway material which could be manufactured and procured in the colony should be so procured, and that the Government should give instructions to have New Zealand coal consumed , in Government service instead of using that imported from Newcastle or other places. j - LEAVE OP ABSENCE. j Leave of absence was granted to Mr. Rolleston for a fortnight on urgent private affairs. I : QUESTIONS. In answer to questions, the Government said they were anxious to fulfil their promise in regard to a Bill for preventing the illegitimate speculation in native lands, pending further legislation on the subject, but they desired to ascertain the views of the natives on the subject ; that the road boards throughout the colony would be furnished with copies of the New Zealand Gazette ; that the Government would lay before the House correspondence relating to the removal of the constabulary from Kihikihi to Te Awamntu, adding that there was no danger to be apprehended by' the settlers in the former place., SUPPLY. . The House went into committee to consider a message from his Excellency relative to granting a supply, the Hon. Major Atkinson stating that it was proposed to ask the House for a further sum of £250,000. —The resolution of the committee having been reported to the House, Sir George Grey asked for delay before the Bill was proceeded with, saying that the House had been taken by surprise; and Mr. Gisborne thought the constitution of the House was being, violated by hurrying through the Supply Bill without suspension of the Standing Orders ; but the Speaker ruled that the action proposed by the Government was quite in accordance with Parliamentary practice in cases.of urgency.—The Hon. Major Atkinson pointed out that it was a purely formal matter ; that the Government required a certain sum to carry on the administration of the country’s affairs, there being certain contracts under the Public Works scheme already due. —The Hon. Mr. Stafford would not object to the passage of the Bill if the Minister of Public Works could show that ihe contracts were actually due and might be sued for ; hut in the case of ordinary departmental expenditure the case was entirely different. —The Speaker said it was not according to common usage ; but the whole matter turned on a question of urgency.—The Hon Mr. Ormond said the imprest was asked for -because contracts were continually passing through the office and becoming due, although he could not specify at the present time any particular contract.—The Bill was then introduced, read a’ first and second time, and passed through committee.—Mr. Rees moved an amendment to the third reading, that the Bill be read a third time on the day following but the amendment was negatived, and the Bill went through the remaining stage and passed. ; ADJOURNED DEBATE ON THE QUESTION OP TAXATION. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD said, as a point of order, he should like to ask the Speaker ■vyhat the position of the question was before the House, because he'recognised that hon. members might be asked to give their votes on the subject; and he confessed that he was unable to say in which way he should give his voice if called upon. The SPEAKER stated what the question was, the amendment of Mr. Woolcock having become the substantive motion, and the direct issue was between that and the amendment" of Sir George Grey. Mr. MURRAY , then resumed the debate. He advocated the realisation of revenue from property which had been benefited by the expenditure of public money. He then went on to criticise the Colonial Treasurer’s estimates with a view of showing that the estimated receipts from all but Otago and Canterbury were deficient, and that the public loan was called upon to make up those deficiencies and loss on railways. He contended that the system of • dealing with the railways hitherto had been in the direction of enriching one" class at the expense of another, and gave instances of property holders being enriched by the progress of railways, while at the same tune they escaped taxation. He would not, however, impose taxation on land for the purpose of bursting up large estates, as it was called; what he desired was to reach the land speculator, who did nothing in the shape of improving the land and employing labor. He thought time was required te consider a change in the incidence of taxation, and therefore moved that the words “ should immediately,” in Sir George Grey’s motion, be struck out, and the words “ shall next session” be substituted, which would give the necessary time for consideration of this important subject. The Hon. DONALD REID desired to move an amendment to Sir George Grey’s motion, to the : same effect as the motion moved by Major Atkinson on a former occasion. After discussion on a point of order originally raised by Mr. Stout; the Breaker ruled that the amendment could not be put. The amendment of the member for Bruce was in order. ■ ' The Hon. DONALD REID, in speaking to the amendment, referred to the charges made against the Government during the discussion on this question ; and first, as to their not performing their legitimate functions as leaders of the House, he said iu order to properly fulfil these functions they required to be met by a

corresponding feeling on the other aide. Ab to the speech of the energetic Government opponent, Mr. Stout, it was, as usual with him, full of matter irrelevant to the question really at issue, and treated the House to a resume of the debate on the abolition question of last session. He denied that the Government would be abandoning their position by accepting the amendment of the member for Grey Valley, inasmuch as there was nothing in the Colonial Treasurer’s statement which said that the Government were not prepared to give every consideration -to the question of a . change, in taxation next session. The question could only have emanated from a mind constituted like Mr. Stout’s. As to the estimate ~of it was the duty of a Government to foretell what that revenue was to be, and therefore Mr. Stout’s remarks on that head were of little weight as affecting the character of the Government. He next referred to the hon. gentlemen’s remarks on the educational proposals of the Government, and exposed the weakness of his arguments and the apparent selfishness of his views. His action was characteristic of the inoonsistentcy for which the Opposition had become remarkable. The hon. gentleman would allow the youth of the country to grow up in ignorance rather than sacrifice a portion of richly endowed districts; but it was the duty of the Government and of every member of the House to assist in making provision for the education of the youth all over the colony. Turning from Mr. Stout to the leader of-the Opposition (Sir George Grey), Mr. Reid severely commented on the policy that gentleman had disclosed in his speech the other night. He admitted that it was an eloquent speech, but it lacked reasoning power; and as to his arguments in favor of an acreage tax, they were no|t only absurd but absolutely antagonistic to ordinary ideas of freedom and independence of spirit. The hon. member for the Thames actually advanced as an argument in favor of this scheme that small farmers would have the satisfaction of feeling when they paid this tax that it would entitle them to provision for their old age—to become inmates of the workhouse. He was astonished that the hon. gentleman should have put forward such a statement in favor of the' readjustment of the taxation of the colony. Mr. Reid then proceeded to point out what the Government had to consider in dealing with this question. They had to procure a fixed income for the State ; but a , uniform tax would be manifestly unfair, the difference in the value of land being,very considerable. It was necessary to proceed on a calculation. As to the acreage tax, it would press too heavily .on the poorer class of landowners. Public works made property in the immediate vicinity of enhanced value, and to tax such property on an equal scale with that in remote districts was unfair. The proposals brought forward by Sir G. Grey would do an incalculable injury 'to a' large class of struggling industrious people, who had not the means to improve their land, and were riot therefore so largely benefited By the public works as others who,.had. ‘The hon. gentleman had said he could take £3OOO from the Consolidated Revenue without interfering with existing industries; but anyone who knew how intricate and varied were the interests involved could not listen to such a statement without a smile. Many of the members who had cheered the hon. gentleman had met their constituents since last session, and yet the question of the incidence of .taxation had never been met. -The growth of existing iridustries’all over the colony should be fostered, and there could be no doubt that the proposals of the member for the Thames would, if agreed to, have interfered very largely with the growth of our manufactures, by which work was to be found for a very large section of the community. It was all -very well for gentlemen" to say that"taking the "duty off certain articles would not interfere with existing interests ; but as he (Mr. Reid) had pointed out there was. so much to take into consideration, so much to investigate, that it was necessary time should be allowed. to consider the whole question. For these reasons he should support the motion of the hon. the Premier, — That,in the opinion of this House, the incidence of taxation should be so adjusted as to impose on property a fare share of the burden entailed on the colony by expenditure on public works, and thereby afford means for the reduction of taxes on necessaries ; and that the financial proposals of the Government next session should embody this principle. ! Sir, GEORGE GREY charged the, last speaker with having misrepresented him, arid charged the Government with endeavoring to exercise in the direction of education that systematic tyranny for which’ they had become peculiar. They desired to establish a system by which the poor should be called upon to pay for the education of a higher class of people, to create a class o£ aristocracy by reducing other colonists to‘a state of pauperism. They would establish a system good for the rich, indifferent for the poor ; but the poor were to be made to pay for the benefits thus derived by the rich. He objected to the proposals relative to scholarships, by which no advantages were held out to the very class which an educational system should be supposed to benefit. So covertly were these these things introduced, that it was only by careful analysis of their proposals that they could be found out. The hon. member fot Taieri had lent his aid to the introduction of laws which would tend to create a pauper race in New Zealand, and against this he (Sir George) protested. Finally, he declared-that any insinuation that he or his friends desired to prevent free education being given to the people of New Zealand, was absolutely untrue. ' Mr. THOMSON, in reference to what had emanated from the Government benches as to the want of a leader in the Opposition ranks, said the actual leader of the Government was , in England,-—referring to Sir J. Vogel. The Government were* split up into two parties, and there was not a member on the Ministerial benches fit to lead any party. His interpretation of the education proposals of the Government was that the rents derived from education reserves should not go into the funds of the Local Boards, but become general revenue, notwithstanding that the Hon. Donald Reid bad said the education reserves of each district should remain intact. He proceeded then to criticise ministerial addresses, remarking that what Mr. McLean had said tended to frighten people, and Mr. Reid’s statements increased the alarm, while Major Atkinson’s estimates were purely visionary. He had cooked his figures, and, like French cooks, had prepared a very savory dish out of indifferent materials. He confounded profit with revenue, and had over estimated his railway revenue to the extent of £28,000. He proceeded at great length to criticise the Colonial Treasurer’s Statement. Mr. GISBORNE said two important subjects had been raised during the present debate —the Financial Statement and the incidence of taxation. He could not admire the Statement. It appeared to him to Be in the position of an embarrassed joint stock company which felt it necessary for the sake of appearances to declare a dividend. The surpluses shown were, he said, fictitious. They had increased their debt £412,000, and the outstanding liabilities of the provinces amounted to £3OOO. In two months £412,000 would be due, but the hon. gentleman had made no reference to this in his Statement. These liabilities should have been mentioned. He then referred to the interest paid on loan, in regard to which the Statement was most unsatisfactory by reason of its silence. Out of the savings mentioned, he enumerated several items, which,he contended, could not come under such denomination. The saving on lunatic asylums, too, of £19,000, was a scandal to the colony. The compensation to provincial officers should he taken from the Consolidated Fund instead of being placed on loan, and could not be considered as saving. The’ actual saving he made out to be £55,000. The revenue, he contended, was over-estimated from Customs, telegraph, railways, &C.-; and the -incidental receipts, £IB,OOO, were enormously over-estimated, although the Colonial Treasurer had called it nearly approaching accuracy. The exoVise as to the alteration of the law in reference: to the over-estimate was not a valid one; and would not avail the hon. gentleman with any men who understood anything of finance. He had been guilty of a want of foresight, and should have looked beyond the period to which apparently his calculations were confined. The

Government policy was calculated to interfere with, the,bs3t interests, of the colony. - As -toImmigration, he thought the expense of bringing out immigrants at the entire cost' of the colony should cease. Ihe F°h c y> as it was originally intended to be, nacl never been thoroughly carried out—that was the settlement of the immigrants brought out. The great object of the sale of waste lands waa to settle the lands so sold. He now came to the question of the incidence of taxation. He started with the principle that persons should pay according to their ability, and by the present system of Customs tann the poorer class paid much more towards the cpntribution of Customs revenue on the necessaries of life. .'Well, the question then became how to apply a remedy ; and he said it should be effected by the imposition of a property and income tax. He could not agree to local taxa-tion,-as suggested by the hon, member for the city of Wellington, because the property owners paid simply for the improvement of their properties. As to the absentee proprietors, he looked upon theirs as a flagrant case. They remained at Home, living on incomes derivedfrom taxation of the people of this country, whilst they contributed nothing to' the revenue, for ft they,were taxed locally, as be had said before, that simply went to improve their properties. He didnot believe thatthechange proposed could be more than commenced this year at least. ‘ Having said this, however, he might bo asked why he preferred the amendment of the hon. member for the Thames. Simply because the latter had acted more straightforwardly, and the present action of the Pre-mier-was contrary to his - expressed opinion of a short time ago. Why did hot the Government accept a policy by which they would stand or fall, and not conduct themselves to suit the varying fashions of the day ? He should therefore support the motion of the horn "member for the Thames. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD said the House had had a very discursive debate since the motion of the hon. member for Grey Valley was put on the notice paper. This House had been invited to consider whether or not there should be a tax tippn,property and-income; also what was the conduct of the Government in reference . to native land, including the Piako swamp business; also the assertion that the "country must borrow within the next two years a sum of £5,000,000. The House had . been informed that the position of the Ministry was such that degradation hung over them, and their supporters ; and it had been treated to a very legitimate criticism on the Financial Statement of the present session, and-the question which had resulted from the motion of the hon. member for the Grey Valley. He had listened to the speech of the hon. member for Akaroa with the attention which was due to the utterances of that gentleman, and he must say that it had disappointed him very much. That gentleman might take a very high position as a financial , authority; but he had not done himself justice on the present occasion, because he had not taken sufficient trouble to work up his subject. In the first instance he denied the accuracy of the amount of savings for which the Colonial Treasurer had taken credit. Well he (Mr.Stafford) had taken r some trouble in the study of that Statement, and it appeared to him that the Colonial Treasurer might have taken credit for ah'additional amount of savings, had he chosen to; do so. So far from having overstated them, he had really not only carried on the services of the year considerably -within the amount authorised for the year, but he had paid off a large amount of the. liabilities of the previous year, which he forgot to account for in the total, Mr. Montgommery. had stated that £61,000 of liability on the 30th June; could be deducted from those'savings ; but he forgot per contra to inquire what were the corresponding liabilities of the previous year, which had been paid within the twelve months, to the 30th June last. He did .pot.bring those into account at all in his. calculations. He should he very sorry indeed, to misrepresent the hon. gentleman, but unless he took, sufficient trouble to go into the subject thoroughly, he was making an unfair impression upon the House and the country as to the Statement of the Colonial Treasurer. The fact was that last year there was £89,000 due on the 30th June last, which was paid off ; therefore there; was to be reckoned some £28,000 more than the sura of the previous year’s liabilities, paid- off during the year, the system of accounts being that the accounts closed on.the 30th June,"for which the Government were not responsible. Those who knew what the system of accounts was would also know that at the close of the financial year there always must be Some liabilities that have been credited in the previous year, and in the game way some assets also. If the hon. gentleman Would look-into the account submitted to the House, he would sea that there was .absolutely .received last - year, a sum 1 of £9OOO more than was estimated as being re- - alised; and among the assets mentioned as likely to be realised this year he (Mr. . Stafford) wonld mention a few items which the hon. gentleman must admit would pay off the deficiency he calls £61,000 liability not paid off within the last year. Mr, Stafford then proceeded to show clearly three items that had not been taken into account, in the Financial Statement which would completely cover and clear off the liabilities which the hon, gentleman said must be deducted from what it was expected to expend during the next year. Then, it had been repeatedly said in many directions that at least £5,000,000 must be borrowed within the next two years. He (Mr. Stafford) hod listened with the greatest care to ascertain what the items taken altogether were to make up this so-called necessary loan ; bnt no member had stated them in such a way that he could comprehend them. This was what he found : That they had in all £832,000 Treasury bills out; that a great many of them did not fall due' until the year 1882; and that there, are £112,000 Treasury bibs which the Government are entitled to renew, at least the holders of them could not object. They had a loan from the bank of £1,000,000; Treasury bills, £832,000; and £1,200,000, proposed to be raised ; so that assuming the proposals of the Government to be accepted in their entirety, they amounted to £3,032,000, and he would ask any hon. member who was of opinion' that it was necessary to borrow £5,000,000 to show how that necessity existed. Besides, it was still quite within the power of the House to refuse to borrow that additional £2,000,000, because in reality there was no necessity for it financially ; nor was, there at the present time any liability on the part of the colony tor onepenny. Andif the House should by a majority care to accept that proposal, they had no right to . turn round on the Government and accuse them of extravagance. The House was really responsible. It was amusing to him to hear hon. gentlemen speak of these Treasury bills as if they had made a new discovery, as if they had not authorised their renewal for years, since the year 1871, when Sir Julius Vogel, then Prime Minister of the colony, got up and proposed that the Treasury bills should come to maturity this year. He remembered the circumstance well, because he made the remark at the time that the action of Sir Julius Vogel seemed to indicate that he thought he would at this time cease to be Colonial Treasurer, and leave the responsibility of meeting the bills; to his successors. The House therefore had no right to blame the Government for these Treasury bills. They formed no new debt, with the exception of those additional ones authorised last year, an action for which the'House was entirely responsible. One very remarkable feature about the present debate was that the motion of the hon. member for Grey Valley seemed to put into the minds of hon. members, with a unanimity marvellous to behold, that this was exactly the time for an income and property tax to be introduced. It was very interesting to him this peculiar agreement among hon. members, many of whom beld , professedly antagonistic opinions upon other subjects. Personally he could go into this question without the smallest hesitation, for eleven years ago, when he was leader of the Ministry then holding office* ho had declared that a property and income tax was, to his mind, an equitable tax. Ho made that statement advisedly in addressing his constituents on the eve of a general election, because ho felt that, holding the office he did, a good deal of attention would be drawn to such a subject, and an opportunity would be given to the

t electors to express their opinions thereon. . ..Well,-what.was the resultTheca _w«rs-Only.. two members returned whoTiad pledged themselves to support that tax, and a great many were returned who had pledged themselves -to, oppose it. That was the opinion at that time held by the Hew Zealand constituencies. He (Mr. Stafford) was not altogether unprepared for that, and a few weeks afterwards he applied to. the-then Governor, Sir George Grey, to appoint a commission for two purposes, ; firrf, to' inquire into and report on the whole character of the Civil Service with reference to; improvement in its condition as re-, spected the State, and also ; to -inquire into the mode of raising , and levying an- income and property tax, and the .percentage of cost which - the levying of that tax would-- bear-in. relation.to .the gross re-, ceipts. That commission was .appointed, and consisted of Dr. .-Knight, Mr. Seed, .the Hon. Mr. Gisborne, and Mr. Spence,; a gentleman -who was - sent from - Victoria at hia (Mr. Stafford’s) request. They were six or seven months before they brought up a report, and then what was the result ? Why, the very gentleman (his Honorable friend the member for Totara) who was at the present moment quite ready to pass a Bill to readjust the taxation of the country, after some five or six months’ consideration. of the subject, with three or four able men to assist him, was unable to prepare a .Bill of the kind, although they did, without being asked to do so, prepare a Bill in reference to the Civil Service. They admitted the difficulties which they had had to encounter, and yet the: House found one of. those gentlemen to-day, quite oblivious of the difficulties that beset him when he was appointed as one of a commission specially charged to consider the subject in all its , bearings, quite pre- ■ pared to support a Bill .to change the whole, incidence of taxation v in the.,colony. Now, having told the House this much, andhaving acquainted them with what his (Mr. Stafford’s) opinions had' been for eleven years past, members would - give him credit for truly considering the interests of_ the country when he declared that in his opinion it ; would be a cruel step to attempt to ,bring into operation this year a readjustment of taxation. The result would be an amount of dissatisfaction that would cause such areaction as would produce failure instead of success ; and instead of attaining the object intended it would produce - discontent among people all over the colony. - He believed that at the present time the .people in many places would sooner sacrifice their land fund to some extent than accept this tax. In this connection, the hon. gentleman proceeded to ,say that the whole question of the land fund, as; introduced, would not hold water, and the name of Provincial Districts was a more obstructive term than that of Provinces. With reference to the property and income tax, he.' wished to see it established as soon as they couldget the proper machinery, which, if brought into operation cautiously, and with every-care, would be satisfactory and successfiil in its rekllt, and thW could‘not be obtained during the present session.; While they were invited toilet go certain revenue on the one hand, they might not find anything'to replace it on the other, and at the present time the colony could not afford to let : anything go until there was a certainty of filling up the vacancy thus occasioned. As to the- position of theMinistry, the House had been told by certain members of the Opposition that they were in a degraded position, and that their supporters were similarly situated, , He granted that the Ministers had spoken out a little further than, when the Financial Statement was made ; but tojhis mind there was a most ominous passage in'that Statement. When he found a Minister making a speech, not, of a'declamatory character, in the heat of debate, but carefully elaborated and thought out, which was submitted to every member of the Cabinet, and criticised sentence by sentence—when in such a speech he found that a certain tax' was indicated, in the opinion of the Ministry, to be a proper tax, and not a word said against it, except that it . would not he introduced this session, he felt that another twelve months would not expire before that tax would be proposed by the Government. He felt quite . sure • that the - Colonial Treasurer would not have made such a speech unless he was leading the way, and preparing the minds bf the people to acknowledge the propriety, if not the necessity, of such a tax. Last year the fact fell dead upon the House when Sir George Grey suggested such a tax. What a change had been effected in twelve months. But notwithstanding the unanimity displayed by hon. members on , this question, he was of opinion that had the Premier wished to produce 'a sensation speech, 'and had he formally proposed to introduce., such a tax, there would . not have keen such universal approval expressed; for..it was a matter of fact that the idea had seemed to strike hon. members very suddenly; scarcely one of them, so far as he had read, having touched upon the question of taxation in addressing their Constituents since last session. The Colonial Treasurer had in the course of the debate come in for a good deal of criticism in reference to the figures in his Statement; but it was noticeable that hon. members, who had brought down little tables of their own, differed more from each other than from the Statement which they were attacking. The Hon. Mr. Gis- . borne was one of those who moat severely dealt with the action of the Government, and charged them with having failed to carry out the true spirit of the Public Works and Immigration policy, having failed to settle the immigrants on the land. But he seemed to forget that he was a member of the Ministry since the inauguration of that policy, and had an opportunity for two years and a half of doing that which he charged the present Government with having neglected to do. The present Ministry were irresponsible for that policy, which they had simply inherited. A Government might be held responsible for a policy introduced before their accession to office, providing that they declared their acceptance of that policy ; but otherwise they could only be held responsible for its administration. He congratulated Mr. Gisborne upon the readiness with which he now thought a Ministry could change the whole financial policy of the country in half an hour, notwithstanding the fact that the Royal Commission, of which he was a member, after devoting five or six months anxiously investigating into the mode of levying and raising an income and property tax, were utterly unable to prepare a Bill for the purpose. With regard to the remission of duties, a great many proposals of a varied and original character had been brought forward. Among others it was suggested that the duty should be taken off sugar. He would venture to say that one-third of the duty raised on sugar was paid by the brewers ; and there was no reason why they should not contribute their quota to the revenue. Sugar was also consumed to a great extent by the natives, and except in the case of one or two articles they paid nothing to the revenue. The natives were by no means not a source of expenditure. Direct native votes of supply were passed in the House every year* and there was no doubt much of the public money expended on that portion of the population. He did not wish to be misunderstood, but he would certainly say that while the natives were a cost upon the country, it was only fair that they should pay something to the taxation of the country. They were by no means paupers. Some of them were very rich, and the principal article by which they could contribute to the revenue was sugar. Mr. TRAVERS was unable to regard the introduction of a property tax as other than a misfortune, but thought that an income-tax Would be equitable, and would be_ generally welcomed. He advocated the placing of the railway lines of the cdlohy in private hands. He Could not conceive how a. property tax taking the form of an acreage tax could be called equitable, Whilst the revenues of the colony met' the expenditure of the colony he could not see the necessity for either an income or a property tax. The whole of the revenues of the colony, except those of a purely local or municipal character, should be uted as general revenue, and then there would be no necessity for changing the incidence of taxation/ ’. __ • Mri Wam-eb Johnston having spoken, Mr, Ballance moved the adjournment of the House. On a question being 1 put by the Speaker,

Mr. Ballance wished theVadj_ourument -until half-past seven o’clock next (this) evening. __ ‘ The : ■ Hon. ” amendment, that-it be half-past two o’clock. ~ Mr: STOUTrnroyedr thatrit: be; tpyhalf-past-ten o’clock. ■■j- • .V , ' TheSPEAKEß.in.takihg the voices,decided in favor of Major Atkinson’s amendment. Mr. Stout and others demanded a division; but after the bell was rung and the doors looked, did not press their idea, ~ : The House adjourned at 12.15 a.m.