SUPPRESSION OF INTEMPERANCE IN WELLINGTON.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5078, 3 July 1877, Page 2

SUPPRESSION OF INTEMPERANCE IN WELLINGTON.

Pursuant to announcement, a conference of gentlemen, consisting of the clergy, legal and medical professions, - editors of newspapers ; a number of the leading citizens of Wellington, and others interested, was held in the Provincial Hall last evening, for the purpose of discussing the liquor laws ojE the colony, with the view of obtaining some amendment pf the same during the next session of Parliament. The Hon. Major Atkinson was present. Bishop Hadfield was elected to the chair.

The Chairman stated that the first business before the meeting was the election of a secretary.

It was proposed by Mr. Holds worth, seconded by the Hon. I)r. Grace, and carried that Mr. Fowles ? bo requested to act as secretary. Copies of the following draft -of a petition to the House of. Representatives were placed in the hands of those present :

The petition of the undersigned inhabitants of the province of , respectfully sheweth, —That iu consideration of the acknowledged evils of intemperance, and the advanced state of public opinion on the matter of prohibition, no Licensing Act can meet the necessities of the. case without clauses to the following effect, viz.l. That all licensing districts shall, as far as possible, bo bounded by ilic same boundaries as existing highway, districts, boroughs, wards of boroughs, or other already defined areas of not too great dimensions.. 2.. That' all licensing officers shall bo elected by the ratepayers 3. That on the requisition'Of twenty householders in any district, it shall bo imperative on the chief magistrate or other authority,of the district to take the votes by ballot of all the adult residen a in the district, in the usual electoral manner, as to whether any license shall or shall not be granted. 4. That in case of two-thirds of the actual votes given being against tlm granting of any license, no license shall be granted for the said district; nor shall any district, under any circumstances, bo re-tested within a less period than three years. 5. That no new licenses shall be granted unless the person applying for such shall, in addition to complying with all other- requirements of the law, furnish to the c’erkof the Court a memorial in favor of such license being granted; signed by at least a majority of the adult residents in the district in which the house for which a license is sought is situate;'such memorial to be lodged one month prior to the day appointed for the annual meeting of the licensing officers, and to be open for public inspection, and the genuineness of the signatures thereto to ho verified on oath In open court. 0. That applications for licenses shall be heard only at annual'meetings of the licensing officers. Your petitioners therefore pray, that the law New Zealand may be altered in conformity with this petition, and that your honorable House may bo pleased to pass an Act embodying the aforesaid clauses in such a manner as to give them full legal force find effect. And your petitioners will ever pray, etc.

The Chairman then rose and said lie had accepted the office of chairman reluctantly, not because ha thought he should have auy difficulty in presiding over a select meeting of this kind, but rather because he was certain there were many gentlemen present far more competent than he, was to fulfil the position. Still ho would endeavor to do his best under the circumstances. He would endeavor also to make his remarks as brief as possible, and he thought it would be unnecessary to enter upon the consideration of the evils of drunkenness, or the evils connected with it. He believed the special object of this meeting was to elicit opinions as to the best mode of getting up a petition to ho presented to, the Legislature in reference to that particular evil to which he had alluded, being more especially connected with the licensing of public-houses. It might, ho thought, ho as well to say it would he advisable in the course of the discussion which wouldfollow during the evening to keep the speeches within somewhat narrow limits. Of course in dealiugwithaquestion such as that before them, it was rather tempting to enter upon collateral matters, which were very necessary on certain occasions, but hardly desirable for them to enter upon that evening. It would be well, therefore, that they should leave out of their considerations those private efforts made by certain organisations for the suppression of drunkenness, or in fact for the promo-

tiou of the temperance movement. It would be beat for them in the first place to deal with, the specific object for which they had been called together, and he would point out that there were certain limits beyond which they could not reasonably expect the Legislature to go ; thus it would in his opinion be very unwise for them to draw up any petition embodying principles which the Legislature would not be likely to entertain. Of course he was not forgetting the legal dictum that Parliament was omnipotent ; but it -would be very impolitic on the part of that conference to press upon Parliament anything which they might be certain it would decline to t ike into consideration. He shquld say, in the first place, that it was impossible for the Legislature to prohibit altogether the drinking of intoxicating, liquors; that, he thought, must be admitted. He would further state that drunkenness even itself was a matter with which the Legislature could not deal directly. It could have no control, for instance, over a man who chose to get drunk quietly in his own house and then go to bed. But drunkenness came into another category —it led to breaches of the peace and to all manner of criminal acts, — and it was the province of the Legislature, which had distinct functions in this respect, to do their utmost to guard against these dangers. In the first place, it was the houudeu duty of the Government so to regulate the sale of intoxicating liquors as to preserve the peace of the community. Then, of course they hive to consider what wore the best means of attaining that end, and he confessed that this consideration raised a question of considerable difficulty—a. question which had been very largely debated not only in the mother country but in the colonies up to the present time, and without any definite or very satisfactory result. Recently he had looked over some English papers commenting upon a portion of a report taken before a committee of the | House of Lords, in accordance with a motion made by the Archbishop of Canterbury. The result of the committee’s enquiries, as shown by the report, was anything but definite or conclusive. The question raised was as to the advisability of having free or restricted licenses, and some of the most experienced magistrates of Birmingham, Liverpool, and Manchester gave evidence before the House of Lords, their evidence, curious to say, being very much divided, On one side it was said that if a certain number of public-houses were established fu one town pro rata according to population, then there was a tendency on the part, not only of p iblicans themselves, but also ou the part of the magistrates to look upon these as monopolies, and the publicans seemed to establish a right to such licenses, to claim protection, and to consider themselves hardly dealt with if the law in its strictest terms were carried out. The magistrates also felt chary about carrying out the law, simply because of the immense amount and value of the property involved. On the other hand, it was argued that if public-houses were free no such monopoly could be claimed, the magistrates would deal more freely wLh the houses, and no proprietory right would be established. But then there was another aspect of the question to be looked at If a man had a license for a public-house and sold liquor which was dangerous to the community, it was incumbent upon the Legislature to see that the house was properly controlled. For his own part, he believed that the better course to adopt would be not to attack public ■ houses in general, but to try, so far as the Legislature was concerned, to pass an Act that would in the first place limit, if necessary, the number of public-houses according to the Local Option Bill, and to take good care that those public-houses which had become privileged to be considered more or less monopolies, should be properly inspected. He knew that there was very great difficulty in bringing about this, and he gathered as much from the report to which he had already referred. Where a man owned a valuable property in the shape of a public-house, and had been permitted for a long while to regard it as a monopoly, he would fight hard to maintain that monopoly, and sometimes use unscrupulous means to that end. This is-what the Legislature would have to contend against. However, they were bound to trust to the wisdom of Parliament,' and to believe that it would take some measure- towards removing the evils which were admitted to exist in connection with the liquor traffic. Of course there were other difficulties standing in the way of amendment. Thus, if you made the fines too high the result was that the - publican found it to hia interest to give a very high bribe to the policeman, such cases having been known to occur in the country districts, and these were the evils which required attention. His Lordship then referred to the adulteration of Iquor sold in public-houses, the evidence as to which was so completely overwhelming that no ®ne could for a moment entertain a doubt about it. A man had bnce said to him, “If I had a house of my own I could afford to sell liquor which is not adulterated ; but I have a landlord, and cannot. Xu connection with this, he remarked that as all liquor had to pay dutv, all adulterated liquors sold were a loss to the revenue, and this was surely a matter which should claim the very serious attention of the Legislature. Having made these remarks, he concluded by saying that whaf he ' particularly desired to bring before the meeting was this, that the primary object of the present movement was to bring before the Legislature a petition which should carry weight, and cont.ined no questionable points which would put it iu the power of their opponents to pick holes in it and discredit the whole subject. The Rev. Mr, Wist said he had been requested to follow the Chairman, though he would rather’ that somebody else had undertaken the task who had,larger experience iu the matter. He would supplement the Chairman’s remarks by saying that it seemed to him that the question specially to be considered was how to regulate the trade, which had so many ill effects. He thought no one could doubt, who had the opportunity of looking round them, that intemperance was on the increase in- Wellington. Evidences of it were to he found almost everywhere ; the effects being crime, disease, poverty, degradation, and shame. Homes were destroyed, whole families rendered destitute at times, and desolate. Clergymen, he remarked, had greater opportunities of acquainting themselves with these facts than others had, because their duties led them into the homes of families whose confidence they enjoyed ; and he had no hesitation in saying that intemperance was rapidly on the increase in this city. The question for them to consider was how this was brought about ? One cause, he thought, was the craving after excitement ; another was, the uncomfortable character of many of the houses in this city; and that there was not provision made/in the shape of working men’s clubs. Also, a chief reason for this spread of intemperance was the absence of a healthy public opinion which would frown down upon men of good social position when they go tippling. Then, there was the multiplied temptation to be found in the city in the shape of houses where liquor was dis pensed. The people were hedged round by them. Such being the case, the question arose what could be done to remedy the evil ? Had I hoy as men any duty in relation to these people ? He thought they had reason to interest themselves ou the very highest grounds; viz, anxiety for their brothers’ welfare, and they would be at their peril if they permitted him to glide down the decline p’ane of destruction without placing as many obstacles as possible iu the way. In the interests of humanity it was only right that every man , possessing the smallest amount of influence should exert himself to remove this evil, and finally they must remember that the progress of this country was involved in this large question. Now, as to the remedy. Some persons were heard to say, “ educate the people.” But if that meant “ instruct" the people, he should not be disposed to accept such a curative ; for, however forcibly men were shown the evil effects of giving way to a weakness of the kind, the impression made at the time would wear off after a while, and as a result they would ultimately succumb to temptations. If, ou the other hand, it were said, educate the people morally, and give them different habits of life, then he would agree most cordially; and such education should be earnestly administered, while at the same time provision should be made for

controlling the liquor traffic in a way which would prevent certain existing evils, pro noted in consequence of defects in the present laws. They should at that conference come to some agreement regarding a memorial, to which the assent of the inhabitants of Wellington could be invited tor the purpose of influencing Parliament in its action, or seconding the action of those who were aiming at temperance reform. He should like psn-sonally to see Mr. Fox’s Bill of 1873 get fair play, and brought into operation with the appropriate machinery to make it effective ; and instead of the two-thirds vote being simply permissive, he should like to see it imperative. One mistake had been made in dividing O’ districts ; and he might add that he,.*'like to see the burden of proving- the" •, public-houses in any district "thrown publicans themselves, instead of on the pe He believed it was quite possible to ellect a. change in the present order of things, and to devise a law which would prove workable, equitable, and calculated to diminish the evils which at present exist. Mr. Dixon said he would rather see some action taken than hear long 1 speeches on a question of the kind under notice. He suggested that the best means of attaining the object desired was to establish an institution for the reception of drunkards. It would be open to all denominations, and would, ha believed, he found a lasting benefit. He would contribute his mite for such a purpose. The Rev. Mr. Coffey regretted that some of the more practical gentlemen present had not yet come forward to address the meeting, because be felt confident that on such an occasion expressions of opinion from them von’-' be found of considerable value. He then referred to the draft petition before the meeting, * and said it seemed to follow somewhat in the line of the Local Option Bill, and he was under the impression from what had fallen from Bishop Hadfield that his Lordship was prepared to go further than an expression of approval of the Local Option Bill. He (Mr. Coffey) did not know when the paper before him was drawn up, but he had not seen it . until arriving at the meeting. He objected to it, because it seemed to teach the Legislature; and he was of opinion that the wiser course would be to approach the Legislature with a general principle, and request them to embody it in some workable form. He then pointed out the objectionable features in the memorial, and submitted the following suggestions which he bad drawn up, with the object, further on in the evening, of moving in the form of a re--1 solution, if agreeable to the meeting :—(1.) While this conference deplores the widespread 1 intemperance which prevails in New Zealand, ’ it is of opinion that indirect agencies will sup- ! ply the most effective check. (2.) The con- ; fereuce is of opinion that no coersive measures 1 will reach those already addicted to excess, yet [ it contemplates a large abatement of the consequent thereon from a judicious system, t of licensing laws. (3.) That the Legislature 3 should therefore be requested to enforce, the 3 most severe penalties against adulteration,’ 1 and make provision for the payment t of officers, whose sole duty it would 3 he to examine and procure analysis of intoxicating drinks sold at hotels. (4). .This 1 conference approves the principle of the proposed Local Option Bill, and recommends it to 3 the consideration of Parliament. (5). The conference suggests that the licensing districts r in all towns be the wards for the time being. (6). The conference recognises the duty of 2 not cancelling existing licenses unless by a t vote of two-thirds of the adult population, but , considers that a simple majority should pre-' 2 vent the issue of a proposed new license. - The Rev. Mr. Ooe thought the meeting - should come to the practiovl point which if , was necessary to keep before them, namely, 7 that they would apply to the Government to 2 make laws which, if carried out properly! 3 would have the effect of throwing barriers in 7 the way of that vice which was fast deraorali--2 sing so many of our people. He had many 1 doubts as to the practicability of the Local 1 Option Bill, and scarcely believed that if it wei e passed to-morrow, it would have the good - effect its promoter fondly imagined, though 2 he gave that talented and benevolently . disposed young genteman every credit 2 for what he had done. Mr. Ogg then i traced the history of the Permissive Bill, to '■ show that it was found to be iuoperati ~ It ■ 1 was necessary, therefore, that the conference i should be careful to ascertain that any’suggest ! tious they might make would, in the event of i being embodied in a general measure, prove ; operati - e. Preventive means should he taken > against the adulteration of liquor for instance, , a practice which they knew was very preva- ! lent. He was of opinion that one public-house i was amply sufficient to meet the wants of a i thousand people ; and what they wanted was i that strict provision should be made for prei venting the spread of these. Publicans should 1 be punished for serving liquor to drunken men who perhaps had helpless families. But as, t a matter of fact, the police did not carry out the law strictly. They were men, he said, who were unable to dig, and ashamed to beg.. Perhaps they should not be spoken of too harshly, however. They did their best, possibly ; but the fact of the matter was, that con--stant communication with crime had a deteriorating effect upon their morals. In conclusion, the rev. gentleman expressed the hope, that some practical men would take the matter in hand, and give the meeting the benefit of their experience. - Dr. Watts suggested that there should be excisemen appointed, and that, as in England' • these persona should be educated in a chemical i laboratry, so as to be able to detect adulteration.

The Rev. James Paterson had expected to see some reso utions brought forward by the promoters of the conference, and was rather disappointed that they had not done so.

Mr. J. G, Holdswobth said it was not from any negligence that the gentlemen forming the committee had not as yet proposed resolutions. Resolutions had actually been drafted and carefully considered ; but it had been felt desirable that full opportunity should be given, before those resolutions were proposed, for the full expression of those various opinions which must of necessity exist in an assemblage represented by all sections of the community. But with a view of giving effect to the suggestion of the Rev. Mr. Paterson, he would move,- -“That this conference approves and recommends the main principles of the. Local Option Bill.” It would be understood that It was the “ main principles” of the Local Option Bill that the conference were asked to approve—-not the details. Whether two-thirds of the residents or a full majority of the residents within any city, within any ward of a city, within a highway district, or whatever it might : be, should have the power to prevent the issue of licenses, were matters which might .je discussed by the members of the Legislature. But he was sure of this : it would be a positive advantage to members of Parliament, in considering the matter, to have before them expressions of opinion on main principles from cities such ns Wellington to guide them in the performances of the duties they had undertaken. One or two gentlemen who had spoken had lamented the infrequency with which clergymen expressed their opinions ou this matter. Well, the clergy wire to a large extent hut the reflex of the opinions of those who formed their congregations. (Hear, hear) The lergy, like the Press, were very much what the people made them, though he admitted that if there were dumb dogs ; u the pulpit there would be dumb sheep in the pews (laughter). If the clergyman were an earnest man, the congregation, too, would be earnest, and the same principle applied with respect to the Press. He was sadly afraid that in questions of this sort the “people were apt t« consider the primary problem, “ Will it pay?” But if there, was one consideration, which, in a matter of this kind, deserved to be placed in the background, which deserved to be scouted when thinking of their duty as their brothers'" keepers it was this miserable question “ WilL. it pay?” Let them not for one moment, take the question into consideration in discussions of this kind; let them look at it in its broadest aspect. That they each had a duty to perform to their fellow-men generally, and more especially to those who were being so seriously injured in their persons, aud in the persona of their wives and families, by the base use of intoxicating liquors. He felt very strongly ou

tiiis question of the liquor traffic, and ho only wished he could excite the same amount of interest in it, not only in the minds of those present, but in the ■ minds of the absent, as he himself felt. In any case he hoped that the proceedings of that night would bear fruit, and as a result of the conference, whether his resolution or that of any other person were carried, that good would accrue; that their meeting and talking together over these matters soberly, seriously, and earnestly, might have the effect of attracting attention to the frightful evil that drink \Vas working, and lead up to more ev l. Ho hoped the result of ■ 1(1 not only be felt locally for Sat in the immediate mild take a more lively question pressing for solution - u nu-iurto done. (Applause). The Hon. Dr. Grace : Perhaps you will tell us what are the main principles of the Local Option Bill. Mr. Holdswop.th said he had not a copy of the Bill to be submitted next session, but he might say this, that the main principle was : that power to a very much larger extent than at present should be placed in the hands of the people—that the people should be able by means of machinery, which the Bill should provide, to record their votes for or against the Issue of every license for the sale of iutoxicaing liquors. These he took to be the main principles of the Bill. Efforts were made in this direction two or three years ago. They were made for the most part by teetotallers, and he was sorry to say that the Press had not thought it beneath its dignity to sneer at the efforts made, because women had, been asked

to sign petitions—because they bad not gone alone to the men. They had not behaved manly, and asked the husbands to sign ; they fiad not asked the men—the men of intelligence. (A laugh.) These were the sneers they had to endure from the Press ; but the Press should have remembered that it was the women and the children who after all were the greatest sufferers. (Applause.) Mr. SVH. Eraser seconded. Mr. Travers, M.H.K., said there 'was a popular notion that gentlemen of tiie legal profession had a very large knowledge upon this subject ; but it did not always follow that this was so. No doubt members of the legal profession were day after day brought into contact with the effects of the evils of drink, and perhaps bad a theory of their own as to the best checking the evil ; but they '3id not lay claim to special knowledge of the disease, or special fitness to prescribe a remedy. For himself he confessed he thought very little of the Local Option Bill, and very much of public opinion as apreveutative of intemperance. He thought that if the respectable portion of the community

men of position, education, and influence—set better example, the effect would be much more powerful for good than any legislation which might be proposed. Nevertheless, he Btill thought that the Legislature could do something. For instance, in regard to the licensing system. He thought nothing could be more absurd than to take three gentlemeu, respectable enough in their respective spheres of life, and place them on the Bench to deal with the question of licenses. Under little or no responsibility and with limited powers, what could they possibly do ? Would it not be much better to appoint a licensing officer, like a judge, pay him a salary which would render him independent of every influence, and put him in a position which would make his decisions respected, and give him every power—an inquisitorial power if they pleased —but at any rate a power which would enable him to obtain any evidence that might be forthcoming ? He apprehended that would be a reasonable course. Now, if a publican desired to get a license, all he had to do was to get half a dozen, signatures to a memorial in his favor and employ a barrister. It might be that there Would be opposition, but it was generally a futile attempt, and in nine cases out of ten resulted in the parties losing their time and their money, because the Bench would not act upon any principle j therefore the sooner there was a change the better. No doubt if his idea were carried out it might be a little inore expensive than the present system ; but considering the interests at stake, the,.magnitude of the temperance'question—for in three or four years enough was spent in drink to pay off the debt of the colony—the He next referred to the question of adulteration, and said “ adulteration,” as the term was used, did not exist in New Zealand, simply because it did not pay. \Oh, oh !) He asserted positively that we in this colony knew nothing whatever of adulteration as the term was employed by the temperance party ; and he had no hesitation in saying that it was absurd to talk of adulteration in the publichouse. If any impure liquor were vended in the colony it was because they were imported in a state of impurity, and he referred to the results of an enquiry instituted by the Parliament at his instance, when he was a member a, few years ago, to show that facts bore out his : statements on this point. The colonially manufactured drink was quite pure, and it was in imported beer that any poisonous ingredients were discovered. As he had said before, the publicans in the colony did not adulterate because their profits were too large without it; neither did they desire to purchase adulterated drinks because it lost them their customers. Turning to another point, he said he sometimes heard, and he had heard it said that night, that intemperance in Wellington was on the increase. He could not accept the statement; on the contrary, he thought, looking at the large increase there had been in a certain class in the colony of late years, that intemperance ' had proportionately decreased. It had also been said that they must regulate the number of houses in the town ; but the fact was they would regulate themselves. Public-houses were regulated by the laws of capital. It was a question of the employment of capital. If the teetotallers said there should be but one public-house, the consequence would be that that one would be somewhat larger than the public buildings. Referring to the remarks anent the conduct of the police, he thought the police on the whole did their duty well, as it was occasionally necessary to use a little discretion. Before sitting down he had bethought himself of another suggestion which he had almost forgotten. He thought a great blow would be struck at the liquor traffic if tradesmen would not give credit beyond £10; or if the recovery of a debt above £lO were made impossible by the legislature. A very large sum of money which ought to go to the. tradesman found its way to the publican; but if the former demanded cash payments, the publican would not get quite so much. (Applause.) The Hon, W. Gisbobne disagreed with bis friend Mr. Travers as to the adulteration question, eonsidering that there was a good deal of adulteration done; and, moreover, that it had the effect of creating drunkards. He thought, however, whether the adulteration was European or colonial, there should be some law to provide for the detection and destruction of adulterated liquor. As to the Local Option Bill, he was not prepared to express any opinion upon it, aa he had not seen it. The objection he find to Mr. Pox’a Bill of 1871 was that it was too sweeping in his provisions, and because he objected to the majority in a district being empowered to enforce total abstinence upon a minority of moderate drinkers. He was, however, not prepared to say that ho would not support the principle qf the Local Option Bill, and assist in giving power to the people themselves to exercise a power id the fliminution of the temptations to drink. There was one thing to be considered. The mere closing of publichouses would not prevent drinking, and it was worth while cousid ring whether such legislation would not partake somewhat of class legislation, in giving the rich an opportunity the poor had not, and whether it would not also -ijtctease private drinking. He thought Mr. m to a licensing officer very, valuable, and believedmuch good would accrue from such a systemif carried into effect, especially if there were combined with it greater watchfulness on the part of the police, and more severe punishment of publicans who sold drink to intoxicated or partly intoxicated persona. Tho temperance party should also make greater efforts to educate tho people, and to offer counter attractions to tho public-house in the

shape of working men’s clubs, reading-rooms, libraries, and so forth, so as to wean men away, from drunkenness to better lives and higher pursuits. (Applause.) ' • Mr. Jas. Burn? suggested that the Government should be requested to take the matter in hand, and moved as an amendment,- 1 hat this meeting deplores the widespread evil of intemperance, and requests the Government to legislate on the subject. Dr. Grace said if there was an intelligent public opinion on this subject the vice would soon disappear, but there was.no such public opinion for the fact was that the Anglo-Saxon did not recognise the evil of drunkenness. Intemperance, he was sorry to say, was the. failing pf our race, and until the people began to see the moral and social evils that resulted from ituntil they felt the national importance of the subject—nothing would be done. Much might be done if there was earnestness. If the Parliament,'for instance, were in earnest, it could soon check the evil. If a law were passed rendering it an offence,punishable only by loss of license, it would soon be found that there was less drunkenness. Perhaps he might be asked to define drunkenness. (Hear, hear.) He would remark that if a publican knew that he was liable to so penal a punishment, he would soon arrive at a definition ; but independently of that, he would define a “ drunken man ” as a staggering man. He sketched the sequence of events in a drunkard’s career, and expressed the deliberate opinion that drunkenness would decrease if the temptations were fewer. He spoke of an experience of ten years, during which he h id seen this city grow up around him, and said he could point to particular individuals who had been made drunkards by the establishment of particular houses, and further than tiiat, he knew reclaimed or partially reclaimed drunkards who were might and main opposing new Ileuses, because they knew that the establishment of the temptation would result in their relapse to the old habits. Seeing and knowing these things, he could not do other than approve the principle that a majority of the male residents in a district should have the power of preventing the issue of new licenses. He alluded to the adulteration question, and said he knew it was carried on in the country districts, for he had more than once seen the quid of tebacoo taken out of the beer cask. On the whole, however, he could but think the publicans were better men than they could be expected to be. He expressed approval of Mr. Travers’ idea of what the licensing authority should be, but said he looked to the education of an intelligent public opinion on the subject to lead to a result such as the importance of it deserved. (Applause.) Mr. E. T. Gillon stated he saw no objection to adopting the principle of the Local Option Bill to some extent, and thought as regarded the evil of drunkenness itself thatthemost effective way of dealing with it would be by making it disgraceful, as was the case in Russia, where offenders had to sweep the streets in the morning.. Captain WILLIAMS seconded the motion. Mr. S. Brown argued that the best-way to remedy the evil of drunkenness would be Ijy providing that unadulterated liquor was supplied. It was all very well to talk about doing away with the public-houses; but iu the bush they were almost indispensable to any men who had no comfortable home of their own to go to, and what they wanted was liquor of a good quality when they paid for it.,,,. They could not do without alcohol altogether, and in a recent paper on the subject by Dr. Eiohardson, that fact was plainly set forth. One of the meeting objected to such au interpretation being placed on .Dr. Richardson's observations. Mr. Eraser, although agreeing with the previous speaker as to getting good liquor supplied, observed that it would not cure drunkenness, which could be created by good as well as bad stuff. He supported the principle of the Local Option Bill, and instanced the case of Shaftesbury town in England, where the population of working-men hadstated they would not have public-houses, and there were noue existing. Another instance of the benefits of prohibition. Mr. HOOPER dealt generally with the subject, and held that it was their duty to do all they could to support the effort which was being made in the temperance cause. Many statements, had been made pro and con that evening, and they had been told to bring education to bear on the subject, but experience had shown them that many men of education in various prominent positions had fallen through intemperance themselves. They required to decrease the number of publichouses, and generally, as was proposed in the Local Option Bill, none better than which had been offered, so get a hold on the community with the view of curbing the growing evils of 'intemperance. ' The Bev. Mr. Paterson stated that he thought it would be very unwise for the conference to attempt anything that was impracticable, and he had no hesitation in saying that it would he useless to attempt to close all the public-houses in this or any other city im't ie colony. A resolution pointing even in that direction would be of no avail, as there would he hotels for travellers and others, and especially in the large centres of population, let them do what they might ; and as for exterminating intemperance altogether, he did not think it could be then accomplished. It would exist in a Greater cr less degree to the end of the chapter ; and all that they could do would be to adopt measures to check it as far as they possibly could. As regarded the Local Option Bill he did not think they should go in for it altogether, as it was capable of considerable modification. The Bill was very much in accordance with the measure carried through the House by Mr. Fox some years ago, which, whilst it gave certain powers to the people in regard to the granting of licenses, did not define the districts properly, so as to render it workable. By the provisions, of the Bill, the districts were far too large, and when the granting of public-house licenses was attempted to be checked, petitions were got up for and against, so that it was almost impossible to carry out the intentions of the Act in its integrity. If the people were to have the power to say whether there were to bo public-house in their midst or not, then the districts would require to be much smaller than at first proposed. The reverend speaker here instanced the effect such a provision would have in a ward such as that of Lambton-quay. and observed that although the principle sought to be enforced could not hold good there, it might be very effective in a suburban district, where the people should have the right to say whether a public-house should be set up amongst them or not. He was, he might say, in favor of the general principle of the Local Option Bill, with the districts properly defined. As to the question of the number of public-houses increasing the amount of drunkenness, the reverend gentleman instanced the fact of his own experience in Liverpool some years ago, where at first it was thought that free trade in licenses would be the best policy ; but this was found to increase drunkenness to such an extent that the most earnest advocates of that scheme reversed their opinions, and speedily had recourse to limiting public-houses as much as pos-ible. As a general rule he held that the increase of public-houses meant the increase of drunkenness, 'inasmuch as they generally formed a little coterie of their own, which but for their existence would never have been formed. They, in fact, unlike other trades, increased the demand for liquor, and they supplied that demaud themselves. As regarded the granting of license he certainly objected to the present system, and thought with Mr. Travers that the question might be safely left in the hands of one of the Judges, who being perfectly unbiassed in the matter could act independently, and according to the facts of tho case disclosed. There could then bo no idea of bringing influence to bear on the decision, as no one thought of attempting such a tiling with a Judge in a responsible position. To speak generally, in conclusion he might state that he would support the Local Option Bill in its general provisions with some modifications in carrying it out in detail, and he would also agree with women having votes on the matter of licenses as well as men. As regarded the amendment made by Mr. Bums, he did not think it affected the motion to any degree, al-. though there was still a great deal of force in

it. However, as .he: saw Major Atkinson pre- ; sent, the head of the Government, he would be glad if he would favor the conference with his views on the subject. , Mr. Woodward stated that ;if the draft petition which had been circulated amongst the members of the meeting set forth what the proposed Bill was, he could not support it. The idea of an elective bench was, in his opinion, simply an absurdity, and as it was a well known fact that tho increase in the number of public-houses meant the increase of the evil of drunkenness, he thought there should be some check placed thereon. That check he would have left in the hands of the people, as it was a matter for themselves to decide upon ; aud he was in favor of the decision being arrived at by ballot. The people should in fact, be placed in a position to say whether they should have a certain publichouse or not ; and he would support any measure giving them that power. The speaker here quoted from a paper on the subject, and went on to observe that he would have the licensing regulations altered iu the proposed Bill, making it imperative that two-thirds should be found to assent to a license before it could bo granted ; an alteration which he thought would have a very desirable effect. He quite endorsed the opinion that every public-house was a temptation to extemporaneous drinking, and was thoroughly in favor of asking the Legislature to give the people the power of assenting to a license, and that no license should be granted without a very considerable majority of the inhabitants of the district assenting to it. Yen. Archdeacon Stock moved the adjournment of the debate. He observed that it would be better in his opinion to have the conference adjourned, so that they might all have an opportunity of reading the reports of the speeches which had already been made. There was also another object, the promotion of a permanent temperance society, which would be much more likely to be successfully inaugurated at a future meeting than by coming to a decision then. Besides, it was desirable to thoroughly awaken public feeling in the matter in all classes of the community, and by some strong united action endeavor to stem the tide of intemperance —a question in which they were all, men aud women too, deeply and seriously interested. He therefore moved the adjournment of the debate until Monday evening next. Mr. Hooper seconded the motion, which was put and carried unanimously. The conference then, at a few minutes past ten o’clock, adjourned until Monday next.