PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4529, 25 September 1875, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, September 24. The Council met at two o’clock. THIRD READINGS. The Swamp Nuisance Bill and Highway Boards Empowering Bill were read a third time. WELLINGTON EDUCATION RESERVES BILL. Tlie Hon. Mr. PHARAZYN moved the second reading of this Bill, the object of which is to give to the Education Board of the province of Wellington the fee simple of a couple of small sections at Wairoa. A long correspondence had taken place with the Under-Secre-tary for Crown Lands, which had resulted in the Education Board agreeing to introduce this Bill. In answer to the Hon. Dr. Pollen, The Hon. Mr. PHARAZYN said he was aware the Abolition Bill provided for the vesting of all these reserves in the various Education Boards, but the present action was taken because the land was immediately required, as it was intended to erect a schoolhouse and teacher’s residence thereon. Second reading agreed to. DAVIDE 3 SUCCESSION GRANT BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that its object was to confirm the title of Davides to certain land which had been the property of his child by a Maori wife. At the time of the child’s birth Davides was not married, but subsequently became so. In the year 1860 an Act was passed to legitimise the offspring of parents of opposite races, provided that the man and woman were married after the birth of the child. But it would appear that the law did not provide for this particular case, viz., the reversion of the property of the child to the father. The object of this Act was to give the father the title to the land left by the daughter. The case had been fully inquired into by the Public Petitions Committee, who had reported favorably. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE stated that he had only been in possession of the Bill ten minutes, and as he did not feel disposed to rely solely on the report of the committee, he would ask the hon. member to consent to a postponement of the second reading. The Hon. Captain BAILLIE also advocated postponement. At the same time he expressed himself in favor of the principle of the Bill, and regretted that it was not more extended. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN consenting, the second reading was postponed till Tuesday. ...IMPREST SUPPLY BILL. At this stage, the Hon. the Speaker notified that he had received a message from the Honse of Representatives to the effect that the Imprest Supply Bill had been passed by that House, and requesting the concurrence of the Legislative Council. ; The orders of tlie day were therefore suspended to admit of . the Bill passing through its various stages at the one sitting. The Bill was read a first time. On the second reading being moved, ■ The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE rose, and said before the second reading of the Bill was carried he wished to make a few remarks upon a subject to which the bringing forward of this measure directed their attention. He alluded to the remarks made by the Hon. the Premier upon the opinions expressed in this Council two years ago in a debate on the indebtedness of the colony. It was said that those statements had an injurious effect upon the credit of the colony, though hon. members had not intended them to have that effect. The Premier was replied to by his hon. friend Mr. Johnston ; but the question raised by. him was one of somuch importance that it could not be too fully discussed. He would therefore avail himself of the present opportunity to give effect towhat had long been his intention, and it might be well, in the first place, to refer to what was said in that Council in 1873. (Mr. Waterhouse then proceeded to retail what had been said, during the debate alluded to, on the financial position of the country, giving the statement of Mr. Sewell and others.) The conclusion arrived at was that the total indebtedness was £16,445,000. There were replies made to them; they were designated alarmist % were accused of misrepresenting the financial position of the colony, and it was stated by the Hon. Mr. Campbell that the total indebtedness of the colony in 1876 would be £13,761,936. The alarmist views they were said to have taken at that time were in representing that our total indebtedness would be sixteen millions and a half, as against £13,761,000, which his hon. friend Mr. Campbell had stated would be the total indebtedness after the railways were completed. Now, what was their present position ? He turned to the Financial Statement for the present year, and found it distinctly stated, under the hand of the Colonial Treasurer, that the total debt of the colony, colonial and provincial, would be' £19,380,960 ; and this was quite independent of another important item of £400,000 Treasury bonds. So that without that £400,000, even if there should be no increase, the total indebtedness was £19,380,960, on tho completion of those public works in hand and in contemplation, while the actual indebtedness of the colony at the present moment was £17,000,000. Now, in* estimating that £19,000,000 the Colonial Treasurer could not say that that would suffice. As a matter of fact, the excess upon railways, additional rolling stock, and other matters, would amount to £600,000 in addition to the estimated £19,000,000. It would then appear that the total indebtedness of the colony on the completion of the public works, would be over £20,090,000 sterling, yet they were told they were wrong in setting the debt down at £16,000,000, and that they were making statements injurious to the credit of the colony. He thought the remarks made by the Premier, on the opening of this Parliament, were entirelynnwarranted, and he thought the Council would do him the justice to consider that he was justified in replying to those remarks. Tho question being before them, he could not refrain from launching forth upon some other singular statements on the part of the members of the Government. He held in his hand the Financial Statement, and he must say ho was perfectly astonished at the number of inacnracies that existed in it. He was astonished at the Government bringing forward such a statement, and expecting the public to place confidence in it. He was astounded that the public and members of the General Assembly should receive such a statement without giving more attention to it than they had done. As an evidence of the way in which these thingswere prepared, he would refer the Council to page 3 of the statement. There it would be seen that of the four million loan only one million and fiftv thousand pounds was available on the 30th June last, exclusive of £IOO,OOO still due on Treasury bonds. There was therefore, in connection with that loan, still available to the Treasury something like £1,400,00() ; yet they next had the statement that one million and a half was to bo lodged iu one of the Home hanks upon interest. This he looked upon as the most astonishing statement ever made by persons professing to have the slightest knowledge of finance. According to this statement the present indebtedness of the colony was £17,596,000, but the Treasury bonds had been altogether ignored. He was surprised at this, because it was the duty of the Government to state fairly the whole indebtedness of the colony. The whole of the Financial Statement proceeded on an erroneous estimation, which had been brought forward here, and still more openly in the mother country, that the land fund of the col my was a portion of the property of the General Government. They were told that the laud fund was one of the assets of the colony, but it was no such tiling. The land fund had been scarcely any relief. In the past it had been provincial property, and should be in the future. Therefore, it was delusive to bring it forward ns an item to fall back

upon. If any reliance was to be placed upon their action in the past, the land fund would not be the property of the General Government, and should not therefore be looked upon as any relief to the general finance of the colony. Tho. e outside New Zealand were also made to believe that the sinking fund was a relief to, the indebtedness of the colony. Such was not the case however. lie was prepared to allow relief might be expected after the lapse s*of 5 *of some forty or fifty years, but meanwhile they would have to pay interest on the total amount, as though the sinking fund did not exist. Before they could get relief’from the sinking fund, the pressure of the debt might be sufficient to cripple the country, unless some better system were devised for the future than had obtained in the past. Having dealt with so many inaccuracies, he would refer to one or two other points in the statement. He referred to the last page, and what he found there showed bim° how little reliance was to be placed upon the statements contained in that paper, which was prepared for their guidance, and how wild and random were the views taken by men who, from their positions, one would have credited with greater wisdom and more caution. Xt was stated in that page that a considerable portion of their debt was represented by available assets. K ow, on takin" up the Public Works Satement what did he find? There the Minister for Public Works told them that the cost of the railways when completed would be £6,000,000 ; and here the Treasurer came down and said that they were a reliable asset at the present time of £3,000,000. Why, they knew perfectly well that not one of those railways was likely for some time, if for years, to pay the interest on the money expended on their construction. Ho was literally astonished that the Colonial Treasurer could give utterance to such a wild and random statement, or that he should find people credulous enough to give ear to it. He next referred to the table of exports and imports of the various colonies as compared with New Zealand. It was made to appear as favorable to New Zealand as one could well imagine, but this had been brought about by excluding colonies •which would have shown New Zealand to disadvantage. More, he found inaccuracies in such statements as there were. There appeared throughout the Financial Statement an attempt to make everything appear in a light as favorable as possible. At the present time everything appeared calm and quiet. The colony seemed prosperous, and to the nou-reflec-tive mind there were few indications of present danger. But what was the character of the calm they were now enjoying? Was it the calmness of settled weather, undisturbed by the presence of a cloud, or was it a treacherous calm, which was but the precursor of a coming storm? They had always a barometer on which they could fall back, and that was, the condition of the colony as shown by the bank returns; and it might be well, in order to ascertain what the nature of the calm was, to study this barometer. Every politician-could recognise in the state of a country, whht . was likely to be the character of the times which were immediately to follow. On reference to the bank returns, for the 30th June, he found that the: advances made by the banks to the public, within the last twelve months, had increased to something like one million sterling. (Mr. Waterhouse here entered into a comparison of the bank advances of New South Wales and New Zealand, and showed that the advances were much in excess of the deposits.) This, he concluded, suggested that the utmost caution was necessary in the management of affairs. It was therefore the duty of the Parliament to apply themselves to the task of providing a way out of the difficulties which threatened to surround them, and to give effect to the desire of the colonists that the required interest on the public debt should be paid. More caution and prudence were required. He did did not mean to say that they were im-. mediately to have a relapse of the serious character that members might suppose his observations would lead him to anticipate. It would be rash to say when that financial storm which was sure to reach them sooner or later would break out. Bo long as money could be borrowed in the way it had been, so long would that storm he warded off ; hut that it would surely overtake them, could not for one moment be doubted by any person who bad any acquaintance with the financial position of the colony at large. That the storm had not broken over them before now, was due to the impetus given by the Government and the relief afforded to the banks by the negotiation of the four million loan. He was perfectly certain that, had it not been for the negotiation of that loan, there would have been a financial crisis which would have ruined thousands; and as the money was expendedso the orisiswouldbe brought nearer and nearer; and unless in the meantime more caution and pruden oe were exercised by the Government and tbe community, it would overtake us in a state of unpreparedness, and sad indeed would be the state to which the colony would be reduced.

The Hon. Mr. BONAR spoke at some length in defence of the Financial Statement. He characterised it as clear and explict. It was a statement which pointed out the real position of affairs. That clearness, he thought, was mainly induced by the discussion which took place in the Council in 1873, and to which the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse had alluded. He did not enter into the details of the statement, and refrained from quoting figures, but referred to different parts of the statement encomiastically.

Tbe Hon. Dr. POLLEN said it was perhaps unnecessary to state that this'financial discussion had taken him by surprise, because the Bill was simply of a temporary character, to make certain provisions pending the final appropriations. The theme upon which the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse appeared to hang his discourse, was some observations made by him (the speaker) on a recent occasion, with reference to statements made in England of a character calculated to damage the credit of the colony ; and he said with perfect truth that opinions expressed in that Council were appealed to in support of a general principle which was absolutely misleading and untrue. He repeated that such was the case. As to the remainder of the remarks made by the hon. gentleman, he might say that on a fitting occasion he should be very glad to have an opportunity of discussing the present financial position of the colony with his hon friend, and he should take another opportunity of replying in detail to the observations which had beenmade that day. He would at the present time, however, venture to suggest to him that if he would devote a little more careful attention to the study of the Financial Statement, he would find that he was incorrect in saying that the £400,000 Treasury bills were not shown as a liability of the colony. It was the earnest desire of the Government to give a perfectly loyal, correct, and acurate exposition of the financial position of the colony, and he believed that as far as possible that end had been obtained in the statement delivered in another place by bis colleague the Colonial Treasurer. He knew it was the desire of the Government that a clear, naked, and unsophistocated account of the colony’s position should be laid before the public onthat occasion. There was no difference of opinion between his honorable friend and himself as to the necessity of prudence in conducting the business of the colony. And he thought it would be admitting, so far as recent administration and present proposals were concerned, that the Government had not been guilty of imprudence, that they had recognised their position so to speak, and that they had done what they considered was best and right to adapt their course to the surrounding circumstances. Vicissitudes in human affairs were certain to occur, and it was the duty of the Government—as in all new countries—to prevent those viscissitudes from growing. He could see no present indications of tho storm which his hon. friend had said was impending ; but supposing it wore approaching, they had taken the best precautions possible to avoid the greatest danger likely to follow from such a crisis. There was no occasion whatever for fear so far as the railways and public works were concerned. The present position of these works went to prove that tiiey were nothing less than a financial success, and they would be a

source of future prosperity and progress to the colony of New Zealand. Ho hoped the Council would not refuse to - sanction the second reading of the measure now before them, and he would certainly take an early opportunity of discussing the question which his hon.frimd Mr.: Waterhouse had so ably raised, and to which he (the speaker) : was ’ unfortunately compelled to make a reply which did not satisfy himself. The Bill was’ then read a second time, and the House went into committee. ■ ■ Having been reported by the Chairman without amendment, the Bill was read a third time and passed. PIAKO LANDS EXCHANGE BILL. Orders of the day Nos. 5 and 6, the Biako Bands Exchange Bills Nos. 1 and 2 were then called on. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE moved for a postponement of the second reading, ground that members bad not bad sufficient time to become acquainted ■with the contents of the Bills. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN offering no objeotion, The second reading of both Bills was made an order of the day for Tuesday next. OTAGO WASTE LANDS AMENDMENT BILL. The House went into committee on tho above Bill. The Hon. the SPEAKER having addressed the committee at some length on the desirability of selling land in small sections, in order to prevent monopoly by speculators, The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday next. The Council adjourned at 5.10 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, September 24. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. PETITIONS. Mr. CURTIS presented a petition urging the completion of the Foxton railway. Several other petitions were also presented. NOTICES. Various notices of motion were given. QUESTIONS. Several unimportant questions having been answered by the Government, the House proceeded to the orders of the day. WESTLAND TOLLOATES ORDINANCE ACT. Mr. WHITE, who was in charge of this Bill, said it had been introduced for the purpose of suspending till next session of the Provincial Council an Ordinance which had been passed last session. Inasmuch however as Provincial Councils were not to meet again, or at any rate for an indefinite period, he desired to withdraw the Bill. Order of the day discharged. LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of Mr. Pearce this Bill was read a second time. The Bill consisted of a single provision repealing the proviso of section 13 of the Licensing Act 1873 Amendment Act 1874, and the amendment to be effected is, that licenses may be granted at stated periods during the year instead of only annually.’ CONSIDERATION OF AMENDMENTS MADE BY LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. .• The amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Oamaru Waterworks Bill, Campbelltown Athenieum Bill, Plan of Towns Regulation Bill, Nelson City Loan Bill, and Goldfields Act Amendment Bill (No. 1), were agreed to. Some slight alterations -which had been made in the Goldfields Act Amendment Bill (No. 2) were not acceptable, and Messrs. Macandrew, Reid, ■ and Mervyn were appointed to confer with managers from the Council. The Taranaki Waste Lands Act Amendment Bill, Timaru Council Empowering Waterworks Loan Bill, Anne Hood Grant Bill, and Electric Telegraph Act Amendment Bill were also agreed to. THE WELLINGTON LOAN . ACT AMENDMENT BILL. • The second reading of this Bill was moved by Mr. Bunny, who explained that the intention was to enable the trustees to expend money in the construction of a road which would make their property on the Terrace more valuable. —Agreed to. PETITION.OF, HENRY ROBERT RUSSELL. It was decided to present an address to the Governor, praying him to recommend that the House do make provision for the sum of £616 13s. 4d., to carry out the recommendation of the Select Committee on Waste Lands in the matter of the petition of Henry Robert Russell. HIGHWAY BOARDS EMPOWERING BILL (NO. 2.) The report on this Bill was considered, and on the motion of Mr. Swanson a new clause was added. The Bill then passed. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The House went into committee on this Bill. Several amendments were made and new clauses added. Bill reported, and third reading fixed for a future day. WELLINGTON TOLLGATES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was passed. OTAGO HARBOB BOARD EMPOWERING BILL. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it was desirable to give harbor boards all possible power, for he believed all harbors should be entrusted to boards, who were the best bodies to conserve the interests of a port. Agreed to. CLUTHA CONSERVATORS BOARD BILL. Read a second time. WELLINGTON WHARF EXTENSION BILL. Mr. BUNNY moved the second reading of this Bill. He explained that the object of the Bill was to enable the Council to extend the wharf accommodation of the city of Wellington, and to enable the Corporation to borrow a sum of £50,000, necessary to perform the work with. The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON said the Government had no intention of opposing the Bill, but should propose a few amendments in committee. Mr. GEORGE McLEAN should not oppose the Bill, but he wished to draw the attention of the Council to the fact that ever since the control of the wharf had been handed over to the Corporation large sums had been derived from it as revenue, yet all had been appropriated for the purposes of the town. He admitted that the wharf accommodation was at present too small, and no doubt there was a necessity for extension ; but he thought it should be by other means than by borrowed money. He had heard that for the past year or two the Corporation had received from the wharf something like £6OOO a year, and if that were so, he considered the Corporation should have used the money for wharf purposes, or have so ordered things that the revenue would have been available for the work of extension. The whole of that £6OOO a year had gone to improve the streets, and no repairs had been done on the wharf, at any rate since 1874. This was not as it ought to to be, and he trusted some amendments would be made in the Bill. As a matter of principle, he thought it unadvisablc that tho harbors of a city should be placed under the management of a corporation, but should be placed in the hands of a harbor board who would make and keep wharves, and not streets, with the money derived from the wharves. Tho other day he had seen that a statement had been made at the City Council to the effect that the overdraft at the bank on the general account was £IO,OOO, and immediately it was decided to transfer £2OOO from tho wharf to tbe general account, to make up the dificienoy. That, he presumed, was tho manner in which the wharf revenue had been disposed of. Such a course might bo expedient for the Council, but he thought as a matter of right the money should bo applied to its legitimate purpose, tho maintenance of wharves. The second reading of the Bill was agreed to, GOVERNMENT BUSINESS. Tho Hon. Mr. BOWEN having proposed the postponement of several Bills, Mr. WOOD said it would be as well if tho Government would on Monday make a statement as to what business it was intended to proceed with. There were now some sixtyseven or sixty-eight Bills on the paper, and it was perfectly clear that at this late period of the session all could not he passed, therefore it was desirable that the House should know what business the Government intended to proceed with.

The Hon. Major ATKINSON said it was not usual for a Government to make any such statement till the Estimates bad been, partly or wholly passed. The Government would bring down the Estimates on Tuesday perhaps, and after these had been, got through,, the Government Would intimate what business, they desired to get rid of this session. The Bills were then postponed, and it was agreed that the House, at its rising, adjourn till Monday, and then take up the Government business. PASSED THROUGH COMMITTEE. The Railways Bill, Registration of Births and Deaths Bill (read a third time and passed). Marriage Act Amendment Bill, Marine Act Amendment Bill (read a third time and passed). - SECOND READINGS. The Anatomy Bill, and The Neglected and Criminal Children Act Amendment Bill, were read a second time. In moving the second reading of the Friendly Societies Act Amendment Bill, the hon. Mr. Bowen explained the provisions of the Bill. Some time ago, in the South, the treasurer of one of these friendly societies could not he convicted of embezzling the funds of the society, simply because according to law be was not a servant of tbe society in such a sense as to make him liable to the punishment falling upon the servant of any other society, if convicted of embezzlement or larceny. This Bill simply provided that the treasurer of a friendly society should be deemed to be a servant of the trustees within the meaning of the Larceny Act, 1867. Such a measure, he believed, would meet with the conciurence of hon. members. The second reading of the Bill was agreed to. The Napier Municipal Council Waterworks Loan Bill, was read a second time. The Hon. Mr. BOWEN, in moving the second reading of the Evidence Act Amendment Bill, said it was clear that by the restrictions now imposed by the law of evidence much useful evidence was shut out of courts of law. The law of evidence in England had lately been amended so as to greatly reduce the restrictions, and this Bill was intended to bring the amendments of the English law into force in this colony. Parties in actions for breach of promise of marriage were to be competent to give evidence, and parties, and their husbands and wives, were to be 'competent to give evidence in suits for adultery. It was also desirable to prevent that indecent haste which was frequently to be seen in cases of assault, with which parties rushed off to the court to gain an advantage by getting out first summonses. In these criminal summary proceedings where the offender was punishable by fine, or fine or imprisonment, the persons charged, and their husbands or wives, should be competent to give evidence, but not compellable unless the person charged has voluntarily been examined or submitted to examination. It was proposed to get rid of the difficulty constantly occurring in the Courts owing to the religious scruples of persons required as witnesses, by allowing those objecting to take oath to make declarations, and be triable for perjury in case of making false declarations. Mr. SHEEHAN heartily supported the Bill, but announced his intention of proposing several amendments in’ committee, so as to render the Bill even more valuable. A number of members having spoken in favor of the Bill, the second reading was agreed to. After some few remarks about tbe course of business, The House at 11.10 adjourned.