PARLIAMENT.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, August 19. The Council assembled at the usual hour. prayers. The Hon. the Speaker having taken his seat, 2>rayers were read. alteration of seats. The Hon. Mr. MILLER suggested to the Council that the seats should be rearranged in a semicircle, as by this arrangement increased facilities for hearing would be obtained. The Hon. the SPEAKER acquiesced in the hon. gentleman's suggestion, and said that he found it difficult to hear hon. members who spoke from the further end of the chamber. The Council ordered the matter to be referred to a select committee. petition. The Hon. Mr. JOHNSON moved as follows, —That the petition of 142 East Coast natives, presented on the 18th instant, be printed. The Council ordered as moved. FORD AND OTHERS PENSION BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that it was proposed to grant a pension to Mrs. Ford, she being the widow of a man who served in the Taranaki Militia in 1860, and who was one of the first killed. She had omitted to make an application for a pension within the period prescribed by the Act, and so was debarred from the pension which otherwise she might have received. She had proved herself a most respectable woman, and it was thought that she was entitled to the special provision in this Bill. It was also proposed by this Bill to give pensions to the widows of the natives of the East Coast who were killed in the late war. By the second schedule it was proposed to give a pension of £6 per annum to the children of the late William Christie, who was killed in an expedition under Major Fraser, in 1855.
The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE was of opinion that a strict inquiry should be made before granting the pensions proposed to be conferred by this Bill, and that it would be unwise to rashly establish a precedent in the matter. As an instance showing that care should be exercised, he might say that cases had occurred in which natives had received pensions for wounds supposed to be received in our service, when as a matter of fact they were swounded while fighting against us. He pointed out an anomaly in the schedule referring to William Christie, which was this, that some of the children were but two or three years old, while the reputed father had been dead some ten years. He would not oppose the second reading, provided these matters were subjected to a searching inquiry. The Hon. Colonel BRETT thought that a royal commission would be the proper tribunal to investigate claims of this nature, as was the course pursued in the late Indian war. He felt, therefore, disposed to throw the Bill out altogether.
The Hon. Mr. WI TAKO NGATATA agreed with the remarks that had fallen from the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse. He thought it most essential that these claims should be proved to be bona fide, and that the Bill had better stand over for another year. He had no doubt the circumstances as related were true.
The Hon. Mr, BONAR concurred in the advisability of instituting strict inquiries, and considered that the Bill should be referred to a select committee.
The Hon. Dr. POLLEN thought it was but just that the widows and children of the natives who had fought for vis should be cared for by the Government, as it would show that the Government were not unmindful of their loyalty. He would not object to the Bill being referred to a select committee to make strict inquiries. With reference to the anomaly in the Bill referred to by the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse, he was in favor of the rule generally observed in jurisprudence, that the child should be born within twelve months of the death of the reputed father to be considered legitimate.
IN CO.MStrTT.En. The Council went into committee on the Southland Waste Lands Bill, and the Invercargill Gas Loan Act, 1874, Amendment Bill. The Council adjourned to the usual hour on Friday (this day.) HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, August 19.The Speaker having taken the* chair, and the usual formal business being transacted, Sir DONALD McLEAN gave notice that the debate on the Abolition Bill Would take precedence of all other business, except or Wednesday, which had been set aside for the transaction of private business. NOTICE OF MOTION. Mr. BOLLESTON gave notice that he would move for information as to the manner in which the Legislature had signified its desire for the removal of Supreme Court Judges. TARANAKI RAILWAY RESERVE. Mr. T. KELLY asked the Colonial Treasurer whether in making charges on account of railways in the provincial district of Taranaki credit would be allowed the district for the proceeds of railway reserves sold by the General Government within the province? The Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that credit would not be given for the particular reserve mentioned, and it would be quite impossible for the Government to go back to a question of this sort at the present time. HARBOR OF GISBORNE. Mr. SHEEHAN'asked the Native Minister whether it was intended to takeany further steps for the purpose of improving the entrance to the harbor of Gisborne ? The reply was that the work at the present time came within the province of the Provincial Government. If the Abolition Bill passed, it would then be the duty of the General Government to inquire into all such matters. He might state that 440,000 had been voted the Auckland Provincial Government on the understanding that the work alluded to was one of those upon which it would be expended. PAYMENTS TO GOVERNMENT AGENTS. In reply to Mr. Rolleston, The Hon. Major ATKINSON stated that a return would be furnished, showing the amount of allowances or gratuities granted to Government agents at Home in connection with the Immigration and Public Works policy. THE ABOLITION BILL. ADJOURNED debate. Mr. REEVES, on rising to resume the debate, was received witli cheers. He said that like all other members he was impressed with a sense of the greatness of the measure now before the House, and considered that the utmost consideration should be given to a question of such magnitude and affecting so deeply the interests of the country. The House wsis asked to pledge, itself to a measure which he considered to be of a hasty and inconsiderate nature ; and in considering it, one of the first questions to be looked into was whether, in following the lead of the Government and passing the measure during the present session as asked, they .were sure that the Government had given full and fair consideration to the subject. They were entitled to know that. He must say, to him it seemed very doubtful whether the matter had received that consideration, especially when he looked back and examined the modo in which the measure had first been brought under the attention of the House ; and he should like the House also to look back and form its own conclusions as to whether the measure was the result of a deliberate and well-considered purpose on the part of the Government—whether it was the result of their own views on abolition, whether it was not merely the result of a haphazard, piecemeal policy, whether it had not been thrust upon them by those who wero undoubtedly influencing their action. He called the attention of the House to the mode in which this great Bubject had first been introduced last session. Previous to that session, or even in the usual opening Bpeech from his Excellency the Governor, when Ministers usually sketched out their policy, or in the Financial Statement, was there any indication
of an intention on the part of the Government to alter the Constitution of the colony by the abolition of the provinces ? He said there had not been ; but on the contrary, there were distinct indications that the Government intended to carry on those institutions. Either in the Governor's speech or the Financial Statement it was impossible to find the slightest reference to this great revolutionarj change, which shortly afterwards the House was asked to agree to. It was not until the debate which occurred on the introduction of the State Forests Bill that any intention of attempting a change was shown by the Government. If he was wrong, he challenged the Ministry to refute his assertions. On the Government benches were three gentlemen who formed part of the Ministry of last session, and he would ask the Native Minister, the Minister for Public "Works, and the Commissioner of Customs to deny his assertion if they could, and to say whether a single day before the introduction of the State Forests Bill abolition of the provinces had formed a subject for the slightest consideration by the Cabinet, or whether it had ever entered the mind of the Government that such a measure should be introduced. If they replied in the negative, he would ask them why no indication of the intention to propose such a total and complete revolutionai-y change had been brought forward in his Excellency's speech ; and if they replied in the affirmative, his assertion that in the first instance the introduction of the measure had been hasty and illadvised, was quite proved. He believed they could not reply in the negative, because it was clear to his mind that the introduction of the proposal was solely attributable to the very proper stand the representatives of the provinces had taken upon the debate on the State Forests Bill, when they resisted the demand that was made upon them, under the most flimsy pretence, to hand over an immense proportion of the landed estate of the colony which, under the compact of 1856, had been entrusted to the keeping and to the administration of the provincial authorities. The debate on that Bill showed abundantly that there was no necessity for the alleged purpose of the Bill, that there was no reason whatever to demand from the custodians of those lands that they should deliver their trust into the hands of the General Government. He said distinctly that in his opinion—an opinion which had been fortified by an interval of twelve months' calm reflection—that the State Forests Bill had been introduced to enable the Government of the day to lay their hands upon the landed estate of the colony. The proposal was resisted, and the outcome of the resistance was this, that resolutions were passed affirming that the provinces in the North Island should be abolished, and a more satisfactory form of local government established. They also knew what had been the answer given to representatives of the Middle Islaud who asked whether it was the intention of the Government to abolish all the provinces. It was emphatically announced by the Premier that the compact of 1856 having reference to the land fund should be religiously observed—that it was not the policy of the Government to interfere in any way with the provincial form of government in the Midde Island. So much had been repeatedly stated by the Premier at that time, and in order that there might be no doubt about the matter, the hon. member quoted from Hansard showing that Mr. Vogel had said, amongst other things, " As for the two provinces of Otago and Canterbury, I hold that so long as they perform their functions with advantage to the colony, we should allow them to carry on." The hon. gentleman then proceeded. The House last year had been given a distinct promise, which every one completely understood, that it was not the intention of the Government to interfere with the provinces in the Middle Island, so long as the great provinces of Otago and | Canterbury continued to carry on their affairs so as to meet with the approval of the great proportion jf the populations of those provinces. He maintained that the government of those provinces had been carried on in such a manner as to meet with the approval of the great majority of the inhabitants—(no, no; hear, hear) —and that the Government were therefore bound by the promise which had been made. What had the Government done during the recess ? Before the Hon. Colonial Treasurer left the colony on a visit to England, he had at a meeting in Auckland announced that the Government intended to employ a barrister of large colonial experience to do what the Government themselves should have done—to produce a measure such as would be acceptable to the colony. They had seen nothing of the colonial barrister, but they had a measure ' which was not acceptable to the colony, and the terms of which were in direct opposition to the promises made during the laut session of Parliament. Last year the minority had made an ineffectual appeal to the gentlemen on the Treasury benches to consider whether in reason and justice a measure of this magnitude should not be in the hands of the people before the session, and had asked them to circulate the Bill a little time before the opening of Parliament, that the representatives of the people might be enabled to make themselves acquainted with the details of the proposed change. The request was not complied with of course, and what did they find when they arrived at Parliament this session. They found no further proof that the ministerial mind had been made up on the matter of abolition—that they had.arrived at any definite conclusion on a subject which affects most materially the interests of the whole colony. The paragraph in the Governor's speech which related to abolition, led the House to suppose that only the North Island was to be dealt with—such a supposition was the only rational conclusion to be drawn from thelanguage of the paragraph.—• yet, when the Bill was brought down, it was found it did not propose merely to abolish the provinces in the North Island, but every province in the colony. That was another proof of the divided mind of the Ministry. He believed that it had been the intention of the Government in the first instance to bring down the Bill in the form in which it was shadowed forth in his Excellency's speech, namely, to abolish the provinces in the North Island, and to suggest to that Assembly the advisability of extending the abolition to the provinces of the South; but they had, he believed, been induced to forsake their original idea by the influence—more than once alluded to by members of that House —of the member for Timaru. (Ministers : No, no.) He maintained that it was owing to the influence of that gentleman—the protector of the Government, he could not call him then- friend —that the Government felt themselves bound to make this a question of confidence, whether they carried the application of the Abolition Bill to the whole of the provinces in the North and Middle Islands. There was another question of a most important character on which the Government had departed from the promises of the late Premier. That hon. gentleman had stated most distinctly that this Government would never be a party to a breach of the compact of 1856, whereby the land fund of each of the provinces was handed over to the administration of the province, and made part of the provincial revenue. He (Mr. Beeves) contended that the bringing down of the Bill to abolish the Middle Island provinces, was a distinct breach, of the pledge given to this House on that occasion. The contention of certain casuists, that the measure was not an infringement of the compact, was an insult to the understanding of hon. members of that House. He would ask what hold had the provinces of the Middle Island on their land fund, according to that compact, but iu their existence as provinces and the land revenue being subject to provincial administration ? This Bill proposed to abolish the provinces, and take away from them the administration of their land fund ; and he submitted that this was a d'stinct breachof the promise made by the Hon. the Premier last session. (Ministers: No.) He thought he had shown very conclusively that this measure had been the result of hasty and ill-considered action on the part of the Government ; that it was not what that House and the country had a right to expect, viz., the result of a deliberate and calm consideration of the question ; and as a matter of result, he affirmed that the measure was entirely improper and unworthy. But not only was the measure improper—not only
had it been brought in with haste, without thought or consideration—not only had Ministers continually contradicted themselves in the course they had taken, at one time affirming that the measure should only apply to the North Island, and at another turning round and saying it was necessary to make it apply to the whole colony ; but he maintained that they had, in spite of reasonable warnings, entirely failed to take the precaution of ascertaining whether they had any legal status to stand upon. It had been clearly shown that there was a great difference of opinion between gentlemen of considerable legal reputation in the colony as to whether the Government or this Parliament had any power at all to deal with this question. (Ministers : No.) He said Yes. Their own Attorney-General had said himself that doubts had arisen, and he advised the Government, because of those doubts, to appeal to the only authority which could set them at rest. In those circumstances, the bounden duty of the Government was to act in accordance with the sound and rational advice given by their own legal adviser—they were bound to apply to the Home authorities to have those doubts set at rest. He gathered from the speech of the Hon. the Minister of Justice that although those gentlemen did not consider it necessary to take this step, a higher authority had—that his Excellency the Governor had taken step 3 to obtain the opinion of the Imperial authorities on the subject. It was no wonder that a measure brought in by a Ministry who were in perpetual doubt as to the principle on which they were bringing that measure in should be entirely imperfect. Mr. Reeves then proceeded to show what would be the result o£ passing the measure. The Bill proposed to deprive the people of the privilege of electing their own Superintendents and Provincial Councils, and it was proposed to fill up the gap made by the destruction of those provincial institutions with a system of municipal councils and road boards which was totally inadequate to the circumstances of the colony, and by the appointment of their own nominated agents. (Cries of No, and Hear.) He maintained that the provisions of that BiE clearlypointed to that step, and he had been led to the same supposition by the meagre interpretation of the Bill which had fallen from the lips of the gentlemen occupying the Government benches. Again, if he rightly understood the Minister of Justice, he had appealed to Superintendents in his speech the other night, and t trusted that instead of meeting this measure from an antagonistic point of view, they would throw in their adhesion (Ministers : Hear, hear) and offer their services to the General Government in administering the affairs of the provinces. His proposition was that the Superintendents should take service with the General Government; that they should give up their honorable positions as the elected of the people, and subside into the position of Crown officers. He (the Minister of Justice) had then gone on to say that he should be the last man to wish those gentlemen removed from the precincts of the House, trusting that they would have the advantage of their services for many years to come. The logical conclusions to be derived from the hon. gentleman's remarks was that the Government wished to secure the services of the Superintendents as Crown officers, and at the same time wished them to retain their seats in that Assembly. Of course, such a proposition would be contrary to the Acts of the Assembly; but those Acts had been repealed and altered before by the gentlemen occupying the Ministerial benches, and he should not be surprised to see them repealed again to suit the ends of the Government. They sought to obtain the nine votes of their nominated agents, which, together with the votes of the native representatives, would give them a very pretty hand of trumps ; and the result would be that the country, being deprived of those institutions which exercised a salutary check on the General Assembly, would be at the mercy of the Government. He had not the slightest doubt if those measures were carried that one of the first results would be of a painful nature to those hon. gentlemen themselves, and complaints of maladministration would be brought to them from one end of the colony to the other, but he thought the chance of obtaining justice would be more or less remote. It was a measure altogether unsuited to the gravity of the occasion. By their own admission it was merely a skeleton measure. The people were to be deprived of the privilege of local government, under which the colony had flourished extensively, and a form of central government, worked by orders in council, was to be substituted. The measure did not appeal to the intelligence of the people. It simply spoke to their pockets. It claimed support from the people simply for what it proposed to give them. It was a most unworthy mode of endeavoring to attain an end, by appealing to the lowest instincts of human nature. But it was not only unworthy—it was delusive to the provinces of the Middle Island, who were asked to give up the substance for the shadow, to give up the land revenue derived from their own districts to obtain the grants which were to be doled out to them by the Government, and which grants would be entirely dependent on the condition of the revenue for the time being. They were told, in reply to their objections in this direction, that these grants would be fortified by Acts of the Assembly ; but he would remind them that what that Assembly passed one day they could undo the next, and contended without fear of contradiction, that the security offered to municipalities and road boards entirely depended on the state of the coloaial revenue. If the Government neither had the money nor could borrow it, they could not fulfil their promises, and that state of things was by no means improbable. In a short time the borrowing power of the colony would cease, and then they would have to depend on the ordinary revenue of the colony. As to the increase in the Customs revenue, it was due to two causes—first, the increased duty imposed by the Colonial Treasurer two .years ago ; 2nd, the extraordinary expenditure of borrowed money ttaoughout the colony. Wages had risen 50 per cent, on account of this. The hon. Colonial Treasurer had told them so; but was it beyond that hon. gentleman's comprehension to be aware of the fact that the increase of revenue was always in proportion to the rate of wages ruling in the colony ? He regretted to say that the increase in Customs revenue was owing to the fact that the extravagant rate of wages had induced the working classes to expend their money unwisely. He affirmed that immediately the borrowed money was exhausted, which would happen very soon, the Customs revenue would be materially decreased ; and he recommended this opinion to the earnest consideration of the Colonial Treasurer when he should come to frame his next Estimates. And this was one of the reasons why the promises held out by the Government must be considered fallacious. The Minister for Public Works calculated on a material item to the credit side of the revenue from the proceeds of railways. (Ministers : Hear, hear.) He ventured to differ from the hon. gentlemen who had said "hear." He was prepared to admit that the Public Works and Immigration policy was one of the best measures ever brought into the House. He believed it was difficult to conceive the benefits that would arise therefrom, but anyone who" was capable of forming a perfectly unbiassed opinion on the subject would admit that no direct addition to the public revenue could be expected from that source for the first few years. Mr. Reeves then referred to the results from the first construction of railways in England, to show that when a few trunk lines were completed they paid handsomely, but that the profits from them were immediately swallowed up when the branch lines were being made. He quite believed that the Ducedin, Christchurch, and other lines would pay, but he entirely disagreed with the Hon. the Minister for Public Works as to the nine hundred and odd lines of railway to be taken through sparsely populated districts, and which would involve a large expenditure for maintenance. They would not pay, and would deduct from the earnings of those short lines to which the hon. gentleman had alluded, and would, indubitably, for a certain time, be a heavy cost to the country instead of adding to its revenue. He therefore maintained that from whatever point
o "view it was regarded, it was idle suppose that the revenue was going to remain at its present rate. It would rather decrease, and they knew that in a very short time the interest on loans would amount to over one million of money, and they might take it for granted that before these railways were completed there would be required to meet the cost of construction at least ten or fifteen per cent, beyond the present estimate. If that were the case, a further addition to the debt of the country would be required, and a still further sum must be raised to meet the interest on that debt. Under these circumstances, the promises held out must be taken to be delusive, as the land fund would be taken as an asset to make up the deficiency of revenue. The object of the Ministry was to get rid of the obstruction to a centralising form of government, comprised in Superintendents and Provincial Councils, and to add the land . fund to the credit side of the colonial revenue. If they had come down and declared the necessity of the change, and had shown they were acting in accordance with the advice given them, he might have supported them, but they denied that there was any financial necessity. His next objection to the Bill was on the score of the inefficient manner" in which the people would be represented. The mass of parish business which it would be necessary to transact then, and which was the legitimate work of the Provincial Councils, would result in the Parliament sitting for six months together, and the result would be that the Assembly would be composed of a class of professional politicians, instead of men who were prepared honestly to give their services in the interests of the public. The great objection, however, was that the Government had from the first refused to refer this matter to the consideration of the people. He maintained that this Parliament was not elected to consider the question of a revolutionary change in the Constitution of this colony; and as a representative himself, he declined to undertake that responsibility. The Government told them their reason for pressing on this measure was that the public admitted its expediency from one end of the colony to the other. He emphatically denied that such was the case. Public opinion was thoroughly divided. He would impute no motives to those hon. gentlemen; he had no desire to say how pubMc opinion had been raised in favor of the measure. He had his own views on the subject, but would content himself with affirming that so far as public opinion had been expressed at present, it was entirely divided, and if anything, the balance was in favor of those who desired to have the question referred to the constituencies. But the Government would neither listen to their requests nor their advice, but had announced their intention of pressing the measure on, and he thought most unadvisedly. The Hon. Mr. Bowen had likened the Superintendents to Caesars, and said the essence of Cassarism was to turn its back on the representatives of the people and appeal to a plebiscite. He could not understand how Mr. Bowen could say this, when not long ago that gentle- . man was on the eve of - becoming a candidate for the Superintendency of Canterbury. How was it that this would-be Caesar had now become a Brutus, ready to plunge a dagger into the breast of the first provincial Csesar he met? How could this be accounted for ? He could only do so by the knowledge that Brutus was an honorable man—(laughter and cheers) —they (Ministers) were, in fact, " all honorable men." (Great cheering.) He desired to allude to the speech of another hon. member, whose present absence he could only account for by thinking that that gentleman had heard his speech was to be noticed. That gentleman was an admirable musical performer, and more especially on a trumpet—his own trumpet. That gentleman had enlarged on his patriotism and on not having taken money for his services. That gentleman had alluded, in his unselfish patriotism, to three gentlemen who had occupied prominent positions in the colony, in terms which he (Mr. Peeves) did not care to characterise. The statements in regard to the first of those gentlemen had been utterly devoid of a foundation in fact. The reference to another Superintendent in a deliberate manner was a wanton, unprovoked, and cruel attack on a gentleman who had not the power to defend himself—who had committed an error, long since condoned by the public, who evince always some of the divinity that forgives. As to what the gentleman (Sir Cracroft Wilson) had said of emasculated Superintendents, it was known that he had asked the people to elect him Superintendent, without salary, but the people would not have him. (Cheers.) He (Mr. Reeves) did not intend to oppose the second reading of the Bill, but he would not vote for it. He would, however, endeavor to render it a proper measure in committee, but would under all circumstances oppose its ultimate passage through the House. (Great cheering.) Mr. CURTIS after the people having had a year to consider the abolition question would support the Bill as extending to the whole colony and meeting the wants of the people. He did not think road boards capable of carrying out the functions discharged by Provincial Governments. He therefore saw with satisfaction that there was not to be an absolute sweeping away of those governments, but that some of their best features had been retained. As •to the legal aspect of the abolition measure, he did think it a pity that the Government had not seen proper to consult the Crown lawyers, as suggested by Mr. Prendergast, who, though not a political officer, yet must necessarily be affected to a certain ' extent in giving his opinion. As however the Government had intimated their intention, should the Abolition Bill pass, of procuring such an opinion—of obtaining an opinion from the Home authorities—he did not see any objection to the passing of the measure. He supported the Bill from rather different reasons than those adduced by previous speakers. He supported the abolition of provincial institutions in the hope of seeing one simple code of laws framed, which should meet the wants of the whole colony. The present Bill certainly only stopped the increase of provincial legislation, and did not substitute something for that which had been passed. But it would have been impossible to have done this, which would afford ample work for useful legislation in a future Parliament. The abolition of provinces would also j/ossess a great advantage by simplifying the finance of the colony. That could be easily seen by the fact that the last Financial Statement made was more easily understood than any that had gone before it, for the reason that it was not encumbered by provincial finance, having treated the pecuniary affairs of the colony as a whole. He did not think local administration would be improved by the Bill, and it was therefore on the grounds he had mentioned that he would support it. The Bill did not propose to advantage road boards and municipalities, except in the older, more settled, and more wealthy districts, where more monetary assistance than previously would be given. However, he hoped to see this mended in committee. He did not think that the cost of administration would be lightened by abolition. On the contrary, the necessarily prolonged sittings of Parliament would involve payment to members and a largely increased cost. He did not approve of the localisation of the land fund, which meant that the districts least needing it should have the most money to spend. In that respect the Timaru and Gladstone Act had proved an entire failure. It should be repealed, and the district put on a level with the rest of the colony. He approved of the maintenance of provincial districts, which would ensure each district being charged with its proper share of the immigration and public works loan. These •were the grounds on which he supported the Bill, and which would cause him to support its becoming law this session. He thought the people had quite sufficiently expressed themselves in favor of abolition, and the House would do wisely to pass the Bill in its present shape. He.would support it in all its stages, considering it a just and a fair one to the
colony. The House then adjourned until half-past seven.
Mr. "WARD expressed diffidence at the ta.sk before him, and as a young member, bespoke consideration while he urged some of the reasons which influenced him in opposing the
measure. He opposed it, not on personal grounds, but because he believed the_ present Constitution would be most beneficial if it was carried out as originally intended. He objected to the Bill because he looked upon it as a measure calculated to take away the liberty and money of the people, the result of which would be the means of enslaving the country to a certain governing class. Provincial institutions were the best schools for political education, and were the channels through which the power of the people could be easily exercised. He urged delay because the voice of the people, expressed through public meetings, was opposed to rushing the Bill through the present Parliament, and because the people would not be benefited either financially or politically—they would lose their money and lose real local government. If one system was to be abolished, the other should first be brought forward, so that the two might be compared, but it would be absurd to give up tangible benefits on the mere promise of benefits at present in the clouds. He drew a comparison between the different treatments of Marlborough by the General Government and the Provincial Government, much in favor of the latter body, asserting that the province would sustain a loss of £4OOO a year, and passed "n to discuss the legal difficulty, holding that the Government ought not to have made proposals without being thoroughly satisfied that they were acting legally. He maintained it was desirable to postpone the question,' because the Assembly had not been elected to deal with it; for though it might be said the general question of abolition had been debated, the way of doing it had never been discussed, and the abolition of the Middle Island provinces had never been previously broached. The hon. gentleman was applauded on resuming his seat after a critical speech of an hour's duration.
Mr. STAFFORD then rose amid enthusiastic cheers, and said many members of the House in addressing themselves to the question had stated that the present was a great occasion. Truly it was a great occasion, but the House had risen to the occasion, and he would take the opportunity of observing that in this expiring Parliament they had had the utterances of thoughtful earnest men giving intelligent reasons for their action and the faith that was in them. They had never heard an expiring Parliament sing so sweetly. (A laugh.) He congratulated the House on the accession to its ranks of gentlemen who had recently come amongst them to take part in their debates. The mantle of the former member for Rangitikei had fallen upon the present worthy occupant of the seat, and there had been no opening speech so deserving of the favor it had received, or so earnestly and conscientiously spoken, as that just listened to from the hon. member for Wairoa. Before he addressed the House upon the main question at issue, he thought it only due to himself and the gentlemen who occupied the Treasury benches, although it might be deemed impertinent on his part to do so, to make some reference to the relations which existed between them. He should not have thought it proper to do so had it not been for the continuous manner in which it had been referred to by both sides of the House. It had been stated that he was in the position of a modern Somerset, for he had been called the guide and protector, though not the friend, of the Ministry. He denied that. None but the most ordinary relations existed between them. He claimed to be simply one of the ordinary rank and file who, believing in and admiring the courage, sagacity, and wisdom which Ministers had shown in presenting the question to the House, had determined to assist in giving effect to that sagacity and wisdom. This Bill was not his Bill, not the Bill of a private person, but a Bill for which Ministers were primarily responsible for its presentation to the House; and for the probable effect of its operations upon the country they, and they alone, were properly and constitutionally responsible. He trusted, therefore, that there would be an end to these constant allusions and references to his connection with the Ministry, although, he could very well understand the origin of them. It had been very remarkably, wisely, and sagaciously observed in a journal winch he had recently read that, when an Opposition could not drive a Ministry from the Treasury Benches by attacking then- policy, their administration, or their sincerity, it is then proposed to displace them by attacking their sensitiveness. But the present occupants of the Treasury benches were too old warriors and too conversant with Parliamentary tactics to allow any question which might be addressed against their sensitiveness to turn them from that which they believed to be right. Coming to the measure itself, he had listened with very great attention to the arguments which had been adduced in opposition to it. Those arguments had been many ; some had been forcible and important, others erroneous and trivial. He proposed to devote his attention to the former, four of which might be summarised as follows :—First, financial relation of the question in reference to the proposed distribution of the revenues; secondly, the revolutionary character of the measure, which asserted to require careful reference to the people generally ; thirdly, the legal powers of the Legislature to affect the proposed changes; fourthly, the alleged destruction of the liberties of the people. (Cheers.) He had named these points in the ascending measure of their importance, the last doubtless being infinitely the most important. (Cheers.) There were others of considerable importance which had been imported into the debate, but they had been so successfully taken up, and so successfully grappled with by successive speakers on that side of the House, and would be successfully grappled with by speakers yet to come, that he should not, therefore, detain the House by special reference to them. No doubt he might almost have omitted the first of the four heads to which he proposed to address himself, had ho not seen an industrious attempt to establish among the people of the country that the offers of the Government were merely promised bribes, which would continue only for a few months at most, and would never be permanently fulfilled. There were people whom he would fain believe were writing and speaking in ignorance, but many he knew were writing and speaking disingenuously, who made that assertion, and endeavored to confirm it by a reference to the changes of 1872 and 1874 in respect to the capitation grants, although those people who wrote and spoke so disingenuously well knew that those changes had been a financial boon. (Cheers.) It was true there had been a reduction from 30s. to 155., but there was taken over at the same time an enormous mass of departments which had been charged provincially. There had been deducted 'from that 30s. courts of justice and other departments, which, with the exception of mail services which had also been taken over in the next year, had brought about a total result which, instead of inflicting loss upon the provinces, had actually been to them a gain of £7OOO. That was sufficiently conclusive to prove that the provinces had gained instead of lost by the change. (Cheers.) The hon. member for Auckland City "West had not thought it unworthy of his position in that House, or unworthy of his position as an old veteran and used to public affairs, and tried in them under different aspects, to try to discourage and to seek to trample upon the younger men in office. (Cheers.) He had sought to discourage them by alluding to the constitution of the Ministry, especially singling out the Colonial Treasurer and the Minister of Justice. Ho had told the House at the same time that he was a man whose privilege it had been to associate with men in the mother country great in law, great in literature, great in politics, and great in philosophy ; but with all those great associations, he had not been taught so much magnanimity as to lead him to hold the right hand of assistance to younger men, instead of trying to stamp them out. (Cheers.) And who are those men 1 Who was the Colonial Treasurer? said the hon. member. It was true that the only objection brought against him was in a manner correct. It was true that he was not elected to the first session of the present Parliament, but ho had sat in four sessions, and had previously been a member of the preceding Parliament; he had been in office at a time when the country was in great danger
and distress, and had shown not only courage in the field, but energy and judgment in the office, and had organised his department in a manner which, as the hon. member knew, had contributed much to the salvation of the country. This was the man who the hon. member said was not entitled to share in the councils of the State, or to exercise an influence upon the public affairs of New Zealand. Then there was the Minister of Justice. It was perfectly true he had made his maiden speech from the Treasury benches, but for that there was a precedent, and a very recent one, for he believed Mr. Cross, the present Secretary of State for the Home Department, had done the same in the House of Commons. (No, no.) He believed it was so, at any rate previously Mr. Cross's words had been comparatively unknown, and his utterances never referred to. The hon. gentleman had been an elected member of the Provincial Council in his province, a member of the Provincial Executive at a time when Provincial Government was on its trial, and had succeeded in both. Subsequently, for many years he had presided owr a court of justice in the capitai of his province, and in that capacity had gained universal encomiums from the lowest of his fellow-citizens and the highest judge in the laud. For a moment he (Mr. S* "".-rd) ■ hnd been a ' med of the hon. a late Pit ier of England had stiried the great Proconsul, when forgetting the • element of greatness, and instead of holding out the right hand of encouragement, he had endeavored tr, .oamp out new men because, forsooth, they had less experience of public affairs than himself. He should now proceed to the consideration of the second head —the revolutionary character of these resolutions. He had used the word revolutionary incidentally at an early period of the session, and the hon. member for Auckland City West had chosen to put an interpretation upon it which was not meant, and other members had since distorted his meaning. He had nothing to retract from the term as he used it, but he refused to accept the interpretation which the hon. member had put upon it. When he used it he had had no visions of the colonists of the countryimbuedineachothersblood; he had had no such visions as had appeared to have crossed the mind of the editor of a journal which supported the hon. member for Auckland City West and his party, and was generally supposed to be under the inspiration of the hon. member, he had not enjoyed visions of a cordon around a Customhouse through which the law could not pass, he had had no vision of brands or cutlasses, nor of powder beiug kept dry for use on special occasions. (A laugh.) That was very far from his idea of revolution as he had used the term. He had meant no such revolution as that which seemed to have presented itself to the mind of that journal. Sir GEORGE GREY : What journal ? The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD: The Auckland Star. He had pictured to himself such a revolution as led to the Petition of Rights, the Bill of Rights, the Catholic Emancipation Bill, the Corn Laws, and the Reform Act of 1832, questions infinitely greater than that they were now considering. They had had professions of faith last session, and professions of faith again this session. Last session they had had a remarkable profession of faith from a well known provincialist, the hon. member for Rangitikei, a gentleman who was an ultraprovincialist, and who would not endure the existence of a Government who were not prepared to uphold provincial institutions in their entirety. That gentleman had last year, for reasons given, feeling he had not a leg to stand on, confessed he could not support the system, and this year they had had a confession of faith from another provincialist. For himself, he would make a confession of faith, and sayhe had never been a provincialist. Having referred to the histories of Greece, France, and the United States to show that where the provincial system had been tried the people became split up into factions, and the countries were torn asunder by internal dissensions, he proceeded to exhibit the bad working of the system, by relating experiences of his own when Superintendent of Nelson. It could not be said he was one of the rejected, and in consequence of his rejection had sought to pull clown and overturn the institutions. On one occasion when he had taken office as Premier it was complained that he neglected the provinces, that he had no local sympathy. It was true, but his sympathy had been colonial—(cheers) —and one of his first acts had been to amend the Constitution, and that brought him to the remarks of the hon. member for Parnell. That gentleman had said they could not travel beyond the four corners of the Constitution. No doubt the hon. member was conversant with authorities, and perhaps he would say how the Constitution, of which the present was a reflex, had come into existence—howthepresentHouse of Commons had become possessed of its powers. They had had no written Constitution from which to model it. The barons had been summoned by Simon de Montfort, with but a nominal reference to the King. That was the first occasion upon which writs had been issued for shires, instead of directly to the barons, who had been used to wield the whole power of the realm. Thu 3 had been laid the foundation of the greatest and most respected and most authoritative institution in the world, and substantially the same course had been forced upon Louis XVI. in the alteration of the French Constitution. Anything_ the Supreme Legislature deemed best was within the four corners of the Constitution. And that Legislature as the Supreme Legislature of the colony had the inherent right to model the Constitution for the good of the country ; because thero was no higher authority to pass laws for this calony than the Legislature; because all laws passed by this Assembly are in accordance with the Constitution Act ; because the laws passed by the Assembly override, repeal, and suspend any laws passed upon any subject by the Provincial Councils. And here he would stop to admire the audacity of the hon. member for Auckland City West, who told them that the Constitution Act forbade that Legislature interfering with the Provincial Councils. (Sir George Grey : No.) He certainly had understood the hon. gentleman so, and the authorised report of the hon. member's speech confirmed his idea. (Sir George Grey : No.) Well, he said it was so. The hon. gentleman when Governor had cast aside one of the most fundamental principles of the Constitution, by altogether destroying the power in that clause of the Constitution which provided for the creation of new provinces, and he put this Legislature and the Imperial Parliament to the trouble—the one of asking, and the other of passing, various laws which finally sanctioned the establishment of new provinces. After he (Mr. Stafford) had accepted the responsibility previously referred to, of forming an administration, he narrowly searched the Constitution Act to see what powers were actually contained in it, and he proposed, and the House unanimously agreed to, resolutions asking the Imperial Government to give this Legislature power to alter or suspend all the clauses of the Constitution Act except 21. 82 clauses were originally in the Act, and the Imperial Parliament in the next session acceded to the request, and passed an Act giving the New Zealand Parliament the power of amending, suspending, or repealing Gl out of the 82 clauses. In a subsequent year they had found it necessary to go further, and asked the Imperial Parliament to give the same power with regard to the remaining clauses ; and again the Imperial Parliament did as it was requested. Then again, when doubts were raised as to the constitution of the provinces, a doubt never created till the hon. gentleman gave up the rights of his office, and thus gave a vital stab to the system, they had again to appeal to the Imperial Parliament, and the Imperial Parliament at once removed them. Ho had shown how the Constitution Act' had been altered to suit the circumstances of the colony, and he now came to the Act of 1868. They had been told by the hon. member for Auckland City West that the Imperial Parliament had been deceived into passing that Act, and the hon. member for the Hutt had said he was sure it only referred to tho county of Westland. If that were the case, it was a strange fact that the name " County of Westland" was not to be found in it from beginning to end. The Act distinctly declares : "That
whereas doubts have been entertained as to whether the General Assembly has power, under the above recited enactments, or otherwise, to abolish any such provinces now or hereafter to be established, or to withdraw from such provinces,"—and he would draw particular attention to this, because the hon. gentleman had said abolition meant to alter boundaries—" or to withdraw from such provinces any part of the territory therein for the purpose of including the same insome other province, and it is expedient such doubts should be removed;" and goes on to enact that any province may be abolished, or parts withdrawn, by action of that House. There was not a single sentence in the Act which ishowed that the House had not the legal power—the direct legal power—to alter, suspend, or repeal any part of the Constitution Act if such action was necessary, and he did not suppose any doubt existed in the mind of any hon. member He had not seen any clause which showed there was no power, aud had heard of none. They had had opinions on the one hand from the law advisers of the Crown, given with the knowledge that they would be placed amongst the records of the colony. They had had on the other haud the opinion of one of the Judges, Mr. Justice Gillies. But that opinion was not drawn from him or given by him in his capacity as a lawyer. (Hearty cheering.) It was not placed on record amongst the records of the State as a direct, carefully considered, and well thought-out opinion, on a direct minute requiring it, but was the assertion made by one who was, at the time he was speaking, a strong political partisan. (Cheers.) He now came to a subject which to him and to all others was one of the most vital importance, and which had been referred to so much by those who argued that they were now about to destroy and take away popular liberties in a certain direction. Let them see what those liberties were which a Superintendent and Provincial Council were supposed to be the only people able to conserve —liberties which consisted of determining what should be the nature of impounding ordinances, trespass ordinances, scab ordinances, and the dog taxes. There certainly was one great question with which Provincial Governments were permitted to deal, namely, the elementary instruction of the people. But with regard to those other questions, where was the invasion of those liberties of the people, if instead of a great mass of conflicting laws upon inferior subjects, although of daily and weekly import to individuals, there were substituted more general and well considered laws which did not recognise petty distinctions. The powers aud questions connected with the liberties of the people, were the powers of determining how the burdens of the State should be distributed between the different classes of the community, powers of determining what proportions of the earnings of the people by the sweat of their brows and mental labor should be taken for public necessities, powers to constitute courts of justice and to determine their machinery. Those were the powers which were the guardians and defence of the liberties of the people ; and those powers were carefully withheld by the Constitution Act from the Provincial Councils. The most important functions they could exercise, they exercised by no inherent right, but by delegation, by laws expressly passed enabling them to do so. They could not impose fines upon scabby sheep without coming to that House to enable them to do so. (Laughter.) It might be held up that the elected Superintendents were the safeguards of the people. They had had these Superintendents contrasted by_ the hon. member for Parnell, as to whose position in that House he had heard people express astonishment, in which he shared—a position which had been represented as being first on one side of the House, next on the other side, and finally in the middle. That hon. member had been pleased to apply the term satrap to them. He did not know why the hon. gentleman had selected that word. It was in itself innocent, except inasmuch as it was not English. It simply meant Governor, whether elected, hereditary, or nominated, and, with some qualification, was quite applicable to Superintendents. That was not an essentially permanent part of the scheme, and the Government did not intend it should be maintained after the next session of the Assembly. What was the position of Superintendents ? They were surrounded by them in that House, they were to the right, to the left, and in front, and hon. members could look around and make selections as to their positions. There was the member for Avon. What was his position ? How could he conserve the liberties of the people ? how give expression to the wishes of the people ? He could not make any appointment without the consent of his Executive, neither could he dismiss his Executive so long as a majority of the Council was opposed to it. On a recent occasion he had been in direct conflict with his Executive, had sent a memorable and well-thought-out message on the subject of education, when a public meeting was called unanimously supporting him and recommending him to exercise his constitutional veto on the measure ; but the hon. gentleman was so much trammelled, so completely destroyed and emasculated, that he could not carry out his veto. They had another Superintendent who last session protested that he was afraid to put his name to paper, and had committed acts which he disapproved of, and did so because he was bound to act in accordance with the wishes of the socalled responsible advisers which the Provincial Council had forced upon him. These were the great guardians of the liberties of the people. Then again, they had the Superintendent of Otago. He could not do anything without the consent of those persons whom the majority of the people had for the time being imposed upon him as advisers. He thought he had shown that when the elective Superintendents were not in direct conflict with their Provincial Councils, as in some provinces where responsible government did not exist, almost perpetually they were the abject slaves of those Provincial Councils. They were told that an English speaking race, inheriting aspirations, memories, knowledge, and experience of the people of a great and free country from which they had sprung, could not retain their liberties if the provincial system was taken away—that they would be troddeu-downslaves. He thought therewas more manliness, more courage, more single-mindedness amongst the people of New Zealand than to permit themselves to drift into the position of trodden-down slaves ; and lie said this to the people of New Zealand from a twenty years' experience of the working of the Constitution : that if they wished to be a great, free, and prosperous people, they would not consent any longer to be misled by sham Parliaments and sham Governments, but would concentrate their energies and intellects on the Supreme Legislature, and carefully consider who they sent there to represent them, and carefully criticise their actions when sent, and he hoped they would appeal to that Legislature for themselves and their children instead of frittering away their attention, and dissipating their energies, on mockeries of Councils in passing dog licenses and scab ordinances. He had made his professions of faith, not as the result of a few hours' consideration, but as the result of alife's reflection and experience of representative institutions in other countries, more especially amongst those who spoke cur own language. He said honestly and fearlessly if the people wished to be great, prosperous, and above all to be free, they must concentrate their powers of energy on that Legislature which alone could deal with courts of justice, and could determine what proportion the people should bear towards the burdens of the State. This Legislature had the undoubted legal power; and, believing that if they had not the legal power, they had the constitutional power inherent to it as a Supreme Legislature to make such laws as the times and occasions might require for the peace, order, and good government of the country; believing also that a large majority of the people desired this change; and believing above all that it was for the great happiness and prosperity of the country that that change should be effected, and that it was the boundea duty of the representatives to perform those funotions for which they were properly elected, and not seek to cast off that responsibility upon others, he would with a clear conscience vote for the passing of the Bill this session, "and he could confidently invite others to do likewise. (Loud and prolonged cheering.)
At the conclusion of Mr. Stafford's speech, and when the cheering had subsided, there were loud cries of " Question" and " Divide." Afte»- a space the Speaker said if no gentleman was prepared to address the House, he would call on the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer to reply. Mr. Bunny looked about him with much apparent anxiety, jumped suddenly into liis place and cried "Sir," but sat down on finding that Mr. White had risen. That gentleman then corrected Mr. Stafford as to Mr. Cross having come into an Imperial Ministry as a new man. Mr. White then opposed the Bill at some little length, criticising various parts of the preceding speech. He then said that he had risen unprepared, and had as yet been only trenching on the outskirts of the question. He therefore asked that the usual adjournment for twenty minutes should be taken then. This was agreed to, and the House adjourned at 10.15. '
On resuming, Mr. White said with the mass of the people he was in favor of a change in the mode of Goverment ; but so far as the present proposals went, he could not say that they were better than that which they contemplated superseding. He would vote against the second reading of the Bill, and would always be found voting in the direction which would remit the question to the constituencies. Mr. MERVYN moved the adjournment of the debate, which was carried. mxLS. The Presbyterian Church Bill, Southland Waste Land Bill, and Inspection of Machinery Bill were received from the Legislative Council. The House then adjourned.
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New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4498, 20 August 1875, Page 2
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10,391PARLIAMENT. New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4498, 20 August 1875, Page 2
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