PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4491, 11 August 1875, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, August 10. The Council assembled at the usual hour. PRAYERS. The Hon. the Speaker having taken his seat, prayers were read. PETITION. The Hon. Hr. POLLEN presented a petition from W. Baldwin and Edward Buchanan, praying that the Council would take into their consideration certain serious charges brought against Henry Hartnoll on the 11th August, 1874, and which are reported in Hansard. The said charges being privileged and the parties being shut out from legal remedy, they humbly prayed that the Council mete out such justice as to them shall seem fit. The Hon. Mr. ROBERTSON said he could not see how the charges referred to in this petition could be set at rest by any action which the Council might adopt. He thought that the Council was not the tribunal before which these charges—assailing as they did a man’s character, and involving even the tenure of property—could meet with proper adjustment. And he submitted that the publication in Hansard of any resolutions which the Council might adopt, in vindication of the aggrieved parties, would not be sufficient. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN assumed that it was competent for the Council to receive the petition, and that afterwards the Speaker could direct how the petition should be treated. The Hon. the SPEAKER said that the only question before the Council was whether or not the petition should be received. The highest legal advice in Otago had been obtained, and the opinion given was that there was no legal remedy, and hence this appeal to the Council for such justice as they might think fitting. The petition was ordered to be received. PAPERS. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN laid upon the table the Commissioner’s annual report of the Constabulary Force and other papers. TELEGRAM. The Hon. the SPEAKER called upon the Clerk of the Council to read the following telegram from the Mayor of Grahamstown : “ Public meeting cordially approved of the Provinces Abolition Bill now before Parliament.” THE QUEENSTOWN WATERWORKS BILL. The Queenstown Waterworks Bill was read a first time, and ordered for the second reading at the next sitting *of the Council. PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OP OTAGO BILL, 1875. The Presbyterian Church of Otago Bill, 1875, was read a first time. The second reading was ordered for the next sitting of the Council. THE PROTECTION OP ANIMALS ACT, 1873, AMENDMENT ACT. The Protection of Animals Act Amendment Act was read a first time. NOTICES OP MOTION. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved for leave to bring in a Bill intituled “An Act to authorise the Establishment of Schools of Anatomy, and to make rules for the regulation and to regulate the Practice of Anatomy thereat.” The Bill was read the first time and ordered to be printed. The second reading was appointed for the next sitting of the Council. The Hon. Captain BAILLIE moved that the petitions of twenty-one settlers in the Mataura district, of ninety-five settlers in the Oreti district, and of 434 settlers in the Mataura district he referred to the Waste Lands Committee. The Council granted the leave sought. ADJOURNMENT. On the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen, the Council adjourned till the usual hour on Thursday next. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Xur.T5t?AX, Atutjljqx 10, The House met at half-past two o’clock yesterday afternoon. SWAMP BILL. Mr. ORMOND moved the second reading of the Napier Swamp Nuisance Bill, for the x'eclamation of swamps, so that the Council could recover sections. The Bill was read a second time. PETITIONS AND NOTICES OP MOTION. A number of petitions were presented, also a number of notices of motion. REPORTS. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS laid on the table the reports connected with exports, imports, and shipping for the past year; also report of the Marine department. With regard to the latter, he made a statement as to what had been done during- the past year, and what was proposed to be done in the future. Sir DONALD McLBAN made a statement regarding native land purchases in the North Island.

Mr. READER WOOD thought it was inadvisable that statements should he read as reports ; if they were to be ministerial statements let the Minister stand up aud show that the matter treated of was iu his head and not on the paper, that he understood what he was talking' about. If Ministers were permitted to read their statements, members should ho allowed to read their speeches. The SPEAKER apprehended that, taking into consideration the complexity of figures aud facts, it was most desirable to have such statements prepared and printed ; and it by no means followed that members should read their speeches because Ministers read their statements.

Sir GEORGE GREY said the question was, were the Government to be a great Ministry or a band of clerks. They should show that they had mastered the details of their departments, and not have a Ministry who represented nothing bnt the public officers, and who read the statements put into their hands by clerks. The Hon. Colonial Treasurer knew nothing of the statement which he read the other night. Ministers should show that they were acquainted with their subjects, by lucid and apposite statements. In the British House of Commons statesmen dared not stand up one after another and read mere reports. Their statements were the result of months of study. Tlie Hon. Major ATKINSON said the statement made by him on Friday was of his own preparation. As to the general question of making statements, he thought it was of immense importance that the statements should be written before delivered. As to whether the Government were merely a baud of clerks, the Opposition would have done better to have waited until they could prove it by debate. Mr. LUCK IE said that' a statement would bo unintelligible unless the great mass of figures comprised in it were put down clearly and concisely. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS, for himself, said last session he had been asked by members why a certain statement which he made by request had not been printed and circulated. Mr. T. KELLY said, while agreeing with the principle expressed by the member for Auckland City West, he merely looked upon the statements just made as departmental reports. SEAT FOR CAVERSHAIT. Mr. MACANDREW said no time should be lost in filling up the vacancy for Gavershara, and moved that a writ be issued, which was carried. QUESTIONS. In reply to Mr. Swanson, Sir DONALD McLEAN said that there was a legal difficulty in the way of the reclamation of Official Bay. As to whether the Government would re-erect Wynyard pier, he said he hoped some arrangement would bo come to for facilitating loading purposes. In reply to Mr. Bcnnv, The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS said it was deemed unadvisablo to lay on the table the report of the officer who conducted the inquiry into the conduct of the officers in charge of the Foxton and Palmerston railway. In reply to Mr. Montgomery, The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government would lay on the table, and have printed, the latest returns in the possession of the Government, showing the annual value of

rateable property in each road district and municipality in the colony. In reply to Mr. Williams, The Hon. Mr. BOWEN said, as to whether the Government would appoint a Registrar of Births, Deaths, and Marriages for the district of Eawaka, in the Bay of Islands district, that strong reasons would have to he shown. At present the number of births and deaths was too insignificant. In reply to Mr. Murray, The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON said the Government had realised the necessity of a Bill to facilitate the construction of railways by local or private enterprise, and had had such a Bill in preparation for some time past. BILLS INTRODUCED. The following Bills were introduced, and their second readings made orders for future days: — By Mr. Harrison, a Bill for securing the copyright of Press telegrams ; a Bill for the relief of debtors and better security of creditors ; a Bill for the punishment of fraudulent debtors ; and a Bill to amend the Bills of Sale Act, 1867. STAMP DUTIES. The Hon. Mr. BOWEN made a statement as to the provisions of this Bill, and a good deal of discussion ensued, exception being taken to the clause imposing taxation on mortgages. The Bill was ultimately passed, and its next reading appointed for that day week. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READING ABOLITION OP PROVINCES BILL. At 7.30 the House was again crowded with strangers. Sir GEORGE GREY on rising was loudly cheered. He commenced by referring to the greatness of the occasion, and characterised the debate as the most important which had ever taken place in New Zealand. In his opinion,, and the opinion of those who thought with him, a Constitution which had conferred enormous benefits upon the country was about to he swept away, and not only this, but a bad example was about to be given to legislators of all future time, by the effort which was being made to sweep away a constitution by unlawful and unconstitutional means. (No.) Before proceeding to discuss the great subject which was occupying the consideration of the House that evening, he would try in the first place to clear away some obscurities. Firstly, to himself and those who thought with him had been applied the term “ Provincialists.” It was true. They saw themselves surrounded by the ruins of a fabric which in days gone by had secured liberty to the people of the country, and which had been thrown down by men who had persistently endeavored to destroy it. They desired to build up again that building. They could hardly hope from those ruins to build up that institution and restore it to its pristine greatness; but one of two things must be done, either those institutions must be perfectly restored, or they must go altogether. (Hear, hear.) Then, he wished to say a few words with regard to what had fallen from the hon. member for Timaru (Mr. Stafford) —the father, the director, or the guide, he knew not which, of the Ministry. (A laugh.) That hou. member had made a speech on the constitutional question, and some of his remarks it would be necessary to refer to. He wished just to explain that there had been two former Constitutions given to New Zealand. The first had been sent to him (Sir George Grey) ; he had received it upon the sandhills near the Wanganui River, at a time when he was beleaguered by numerous enemies who had already inflicted serious loss upon the inhabitants of the colony, and at a time when the troops of New Zealand were constituted of only one regiment. That Constitution was accompanied by certain instructions which, had they been promulgated, would have alienated every one of the colonists’ native friends ; and, in consequence of the contents of that Constitution and letter of instructions, he had thought it necessary to at once return the Constitution, the Act of Parliament, the commission, and all papers connected with it. Upon his own shoulders he had taken the whole responsibility, and incurred a risk which very few men would have incurred; and all to save New Zealand from the struggle which would have ensued at that desperate time if he had accepted that Constitution. Then there was a second Constitution. Let it be carefully considered by the House, and let the House take the whole subject into consideration. It had been said that that Constitution had been imposed by himself upon the inhabitants of the country without the inhabitants being in any way consulted. What was the case i The position of the colony was this : that the people were absolutely and entirely unrepresented. For himself, he had not a single individual to confer with. He had not had the privilege of an Executive Council from whom he could take advice, and if his acts proved unacceptable in after years, he could not turn round to cast the responsibility on other than himself. A Constitution was needed; and how did he set to work ? He appealed to all the inhabitants of the colony, not by a proclamation, hut he freely moved amongst the people, and so obtained every opinion that could he got. He gave those opinions due weight—studied them hour after hour, day after day, month after month, and so he consulted the people and gained the information upon which the Constitution was afterwards based. Such was the case, and no one knew it better than the gentleman who occupied the chair in that House, and who in after years had justified him (Sir George Grey) in a speech in Parliament. Having gained this knowledge, what was his subsequent action? It must he remembered he was still a servant of the Crown, but notwithstanding this, his desire was to give the colony a freer Constitution than that enjoyed by any other colony. (Hear, hear.) It was true he did not divulge this intention or tell the people his plans, and for why ? Lest he should be accused of fomenting discontent in the colony. What was the result of his labors ? That a Constitution unequalled for its liberality was conferred upon the people of New Zealand. That was the end he attained, and let the past speak for the Constitution “he had forced upon the peoplowithout consulting them.” (Cheers.) Then it was said he had made a great mistake, that he had thrown all political power into the hands of fishing villages and small towns containing 750 inhabitants, and had given them the com - trol and government of great tracts of country. It was true such was the case. But why did he do it ? Because he. recognised in those fishing villages and small towns the energy and the aptitude for government—(cheersl—because he believed it good for the country t» give full scope for the exercise of those ahilities and faculties which were so visible; because he saw they were worthy of his esteem, worthy of his confidence, and worthy of the power to perform political duties. Had his confidence been misplaced ? Let the present generation of New Zealand’s inhabitants bear witness. From those towns and villages had come the greatest in law, the greatest in pohtics, the greatest in literature, the greatest in knowledge of their fellow-men. He looked round that House, and upon the Opposition benches he saw men sitting who had come from those towns and villages, men whom any Minister might be proud to call a colleague—would that some of them had been called into the present Government, for then the colony would not have been haded in the condition in which it stands at the present day. (Cheers.) Why, when an opportunity of filling up a vacancy in the Ministry had occurred, were not some of these men who through long sessions had sat in that House, and had acquired political knowledge, and were acquainted with the difficulties of the country—why, he asked, were not these men called in to assist in advising the Ministry? No. A new man just elected for Egmoat was preferred. In selecting him the Government had smitten those gentlemen on one cheek, but would they turn the other to be smitten also? The Government had smitten them on the right cheek, and if these gentlemen would submit they would smite with increased force on the left. They had no right to allow their abilities and their knowledge to be used as coins on which Ministers could discount their bills for political support. (Cheers.) Returning from that digression, he would say that be had given to the inhabitants of those fishing villages the power to govern themselves, believing

them to be capable of self-government, ami they had sprang like horses to the spur n Inch had been put to their sides, and had created .Treat and prosperous communities, the wonder of future times. Look to the South and see the'■result. Look to Dunedin and Otago, where a hardy industrious race had arisen, where, astounding progress had been made, where riches had accumulated, where enormous public works had been execu e , and then reproach him for his Constitution for having created political power m villages ! (Cheers.) Look all through the colonv at the hardy race which had settled, look at the hills pierced by roads, the mountains pierced by tunnels, the towns created, the cities called into existence, and then let anyone reproach him for having given pioneers to fishing villages. Look at the roads constructed, the harbors made by troops with arms piled and subject to instantaneous attack, and then let anyone say he bad used his power wrongfully. Look at Wellington province as it now stood, with its Wairarapa, W augauui, and let any man say he had done wrong in trusting these people with power, in giving the people of Wellington the opportunity of w Diking out their own welfare without restriction, that be had erred in his appeal to the patriotism of the people of the colony. He passed on to Auckland. Look at Auckland. Consider what she had had to struggle against and what she had done, and let any man say what injury he had done by allowing Auckland to work out her own prosperity. He stood firm on the ground he had taken up, and he to the Constitution Act and the results which had followed it, to bear him out in what he had done. (Cheers.) Then again, it had been said he had prepared this Act and sent it forth from a cottage called Government House. It wns true ; and that Constitution Act which had issued from that cottage he held aloft, and asked what damage it had done to the people of the colony ? Under that Constitution great difficulties had been overcome, great and memorable deeds had been done, great provinces had arisen. Would that palace yonder ever produce a deed to work the ,-ood which the deed produced iu the cottage had done ? (Cheers.) Had it been done yet ? When might they expect to get from that palace anything more beneficial to the human race than that‘which sprang forth from the cottage ? The speaker then passed on to the question of the illegality of the course which the Government propose to pursue, and expressed himself as puzzled at which point to attack first. The Colonial Treasurer had told the House that if they chose to repeal the second section of the Constitution Act, then everything proposed could beyond question he lawfully done. How could that gentleman dare to say that. He (Sir George) had thought it was a schoolboy speaking when he heard the remark. (A laugh.) What said the second section of the Constitution Act ? Why, this : “There shall he six provinces within the said colony of Hew Zoaland,” and went on to give the names of the provinces, and then says the Government shall forthwith define the limits of these provinces. That was the whole contents of the section, and that section had ceased to be inoperative instantly upon the issue of the proclamation of the provinces ; from that time the section had been practically repealed, because its object was achieved. (Cheers.) The third section of the Act stated that the provinces so established should at once proceed to the election of the Government and the Council; and peculiar rights were at once to those bodies, and with those offices and rights the Government could not now interfere. The hon. gentleman must know that when an Act remains in force for a number of yearn and then comes to be repealed, that repeal did not abrogate what had been done in the past under the Act. Then again, they were told that the law officers of the Crown had given their opinions that the Government were acting legally. He did not .know where the AttorneyGeneral was, and did not know what law officers had given this opinion. The hon. gentleman said he did not entertain the slightest doubt of the legality of the proceeding, yet he offered to repeal the second section of the Constitution Act to make the proceedings legal. He (Sir George Grey) accepted that offer, and hoped it would be faithfully earned out. Then, he would take up the same phase of the question that he had raised before that the Invariable rule of the Government of the British Empire for many years had been that where,institutions of a representative character have been once granted, the Grown cannot meddle with those liberties afterwards to take them away. All the great legal authorities had said that the Crown could increase the liberties, but not a fraction could be taken from the people. That was the law which had been laid down and acted upon invariably. The other night when he had stated such to be the case, the hon. member for Timaru almost said he had been guilty of misleading the House, because he must have known from his acquaintance with the Governor of Jamaica what had taken place in that colony. When the hon. member delivered that speech he (fair George), in accordance with the rules of the House, had to sit still; but if he could not speak he had thought, and he had said to liimself, surely the faculty of reasoning had taken flight for once from that sagacious mind. (Cheers and laughter.) The people of Jamaica themselves had wished the Constitution to be abrogated. (Hear, hear.) The House of Assembly itself passed a law abolishing its representative institutions, having first passed an Act to set up new institutions. In that case it was merely a change made by the freewill and concurrence of the people themselves. He did not know any instance in which representative institutions had been taken away from the people, but on the contrary, all his reading and all Us experience had led him to the opposite conclusion. A special point had been made to the effect that when the Assembly had passed a Bill making changes in the provinces, the Imperial Parliament, instead of rejecting the Bills, had passed them, and it was sought to be proved that the Assembly did possess all necessary constitutional power, but it was not so, and he contended the Assembly had no power to take from the provinces any power until the Superintendents of Provincial Councils hail themselves passed an Act relegating their powers to the General Government. For the General Government to take upon itself to do this, was to set a bad example and bad precedent for all future time. But they were told ttiey must not wait till the Provincial Governments gave up their power, but must act by the advice and on the opinions of the law officers of the colony. And here he had to make some very serious and very important remarks—remarks that would ring out beyond that chamber, and would go down to future ages in this country. We have in this colony an unconstitutional officer, the Minister of Justice —an office fettered by no precedent, marked out by no previous experience, the duties of which were settled by no law. Any man therefore who entered into that office ought to be very cautious in his work, as his arts would form fixed landmarks for the guidance. of generations to come, and would serve as examples 'and precedents for all time. Becently they hail an instance of an act done by this officer which would form a very dangerous precedent, and in his opinion a serious error had been committed. Por the first time in this country they had seen raised from the Bar of the colony a Chief Justice. That selection without a doubt had been wise, and he believed that gentleman worthy of the position in which he had been placed. But they had also seen an act committed which would be found to be without precedent, and which was likely to be mischievous in its consequences; for he believed that no Minister of Justice had ever, in point of fact, applied to the Chief Justice for an opinion as to the legality of the acts of the Government. But this he regretted to say had been done during the present session of Parliament, and he also regretted that the Chief Justice had not been equal to the occasion, and had not returned the answer: “You have my opinion as AttorneyGeneral ; if you desire my opinion as Chief Justice, I shall always be found in my place •upon the bench of justice, to which all, whether Ministers or ordinary subjects of her Majesty, must come if they desire my opinion as Chief Justice of this country.” (Cheers.) He prayed God that it might be long before

they again heard the opinion of the Chief Justice of Hew Zealand on a great constitutional question read out iu that Chamber commencing with the words, “ My dear Bowen,” or “ dear” anything else. (Cheers.) Such tilings should not be. He was convinced that appeals to the Supreme Court must spring from the illegality of the action of the Government if they carried their measures, and this was an additional reason wiiy the Bench of Justice should not have been approached in the manner in which it had. Ha.ving asserted that the House was assuming powers which it had no right to, when it attempted to deal with this question iu its present form, he went on to say that such was his confidence iu the Bench of Justice in the colony, that he believed it would be found., when an appeal to the Bench was made, that the opinion of an Attorney-General was one tiling, and that of the Chief-Justice another. He believed that the Chief-Justice would hold a different theory on the bench to the opinion he gave on the mere legal points as Attorney-General, and perhaps involuntarily in the character of a party man. More or less he must have been identified with a party. (Ho, no.) He maintained it was so, but yet he believed when the Chief Justice and his brother Judges come to consider the more grave constitutional questions, they will uphold the rights of the provinces, and will say that the charters of a people’s liberties can only be taken away by the wish of the people themselves. Precedents must be examined, and the case argued upon all its grounds, and then, he ventured to say, the decision would be very different from the opinion given by the Attorney-General in his office at the Government buildings. He felt fully confident such would he the case. Then he would pass on and refer to the illegality and the unconstitutional nature of the proceedings of the Governor with reference to this Act —a reference for which he must ask pardon. He had shown that.by the decisions of the greatest British lawyers it is laid down that the Crown can never directly or indirectly interfere with the representative institutions once delivered to the subjects, and he would assert that the Government ought not to have been advised to break through that great and salutary maxim. He maintained that whoever had tendered his Excellency advice which had caused him to introduce the Bill into the House, as had been done, had committed a wrong act. His Excellency had been induced to send down a Bill with no name upon it which every one seemed to have shrunk from the task of introducing. But a greater error still had been committed, when a money Bill had been fixed to this Bill, a device which had been resorted to to place the other branch of the Legislature in such a position that it could not do anything with the Bill, but must either swallow the whole or reject it altogether. Such a proceeding had never been heard of before. What was the next step in this transaction ? Revolutionary means had been again resorted to. It was a revolutionary measure throughout. The hon. member for Timaru had admitted that, I he next step in this revolutionary measure was to get public meetings held throughout the colony by persons anxious to get sums of money by the change ; bribes were held out to the people of the colony. Such unlawful and unconstitutional measures had never before been heard of. Why not appeal to the Superintendents elected by enormous numbers ? Why not appeal to the Provincial Council and the representative bodies of the people ? They were the proper people for the Government to have had recourse to to obtain a knowledge of the wishes of the people. He wondered what machinery had been brought into play to get these public meetings together, though he was happy to say results were not always as Ministers anticipated, for occasionally the tables were turned upon them. If they had the welfare of the colony at heart they should have had recourse to the representatives of the people—the Provincial Councils. And who were the persons who proposed to carry these changes into effect why, the rejected superintendents—(cheers)—-men who must be animated by some spirit of hostility to the population, which, not seeing their merits as they themselves saw them, refused to be guided by such men. The Premier of the colony was one of the neglected. He put himself forward for the important post of Superintendent of the great province of Auckland, but was glad to shrink back again, yet this rejected of the people was deemed worthy to conduct the Government of New Zealand for the purpose of destroying their rights and liberties. (Cheers.) With respect to the measure itself, he had been amazed to hear that the great advantage to be gained by the abolition of the provinces would be to release a certain number of gentlemen from their services as members of the Provincial Council. Having passecKau eulogium upon the patriotism of Provincial Councillors generally, Sir t George said another thing he had heard advanced was that by abolition for the future large sums of money would not be expended without the knowledge of the House, as at present too frequently occurred. Why, under the provincial system every penny was expended by the true representatives of the people, a Government elected, and under the minutest scrutiny—(Hear, hear ; No, no.) —a scrutiny more strict and close, and far more effectual than any which that House exercised. (No, no.) What had become of the £580,000 expended for the purchase of land from the natives. What sums out of that had been realised by private individuals ? Who knew what amount had really been expended ? Then there was another item—£o2,ooo or £93,000—“ cost of selling debentures, and costs connected with the service.” Who was it got that sum of money? Did any one know? That was what he called expending sums of money without the House knowing where they went. Next they were told that the general scramble for money would be checked, but if ever such a thing had taken place, it was owing to the negligence of the Government, The Bill, as he had said before, had been drawn so as to render it difficult for the Council to deal with it; but he hoped that, if ever it got so far, the Council would be true to their oaths, and. not meddle with the matter, beyond throwing the Bill out altogether. But when he came to the financial part of the scheme, his wonder and concern were increased. The Hon. the Colonial Treasurer had assured them there was a considerable deficiency. (A voice ‘ No.) He would affirm again that such was the case. Two statements were made, one showing a surplus, the other a deficiency. He (Sir George) could adopt which he liked, and he was convinced that the latter was the true one. It was perfectly possible by the system of rendering accounts pursued there to make out any surplus they pleased. There was no real return of revenue and expenditure given ; and it was broken up and distributed in such a manner as to render it impossible to get at it. The fair way would have been to put the revenue on one side, and the expenditure on the other, and then strike a balance to show what the deficiency in reality was, and how it was to be provided for by loans. They were encumbered by a heavy debt, yet that indebtedness was not clearly shown. He felt a delicacy about sitting down on the benches of the House, lest he should be bearing too hard upon the provincial chest, and the doors as they creaked on their hinges seemed to say acre altcni Ha maintained that there was a great deficiency iu many ways, and that it would be seriously felt; and he felt certain that the promises made by the Government to delude the people into concurrence in the course they proposed to adopt, could not bo fulfilled. Ih® result would be that the colony would awake to find themselves deluded when it was too late to avert the fatal consequences which must inevitably follow, and indignation would then take the place of trust. He maintained that the whole system was unworthy of any of them. The people were unfairly misled in order to carry an unbecoming measure in a moment of general enthusiasm, and iu that Bill every element of real statesmanship was wanting. Sir George then went _ on to criticise the manner in which the ministerial statements had been delivered, comparing them with the able efforts of statesmen iu the Imperial Parliament, who upon their hearers the fact that the subjects o'f their discourse had been to them matters of deep ' and earnest consideration for months. It was

with a feeling almost of repugnance that, he listened to that part of the statement having reference to the course it was proposed to pursue. The miners, who were the pioneers of civilisation, wore to continue under an obnoxious law, and the mining industry was thereby to be smothered and destroyed. The- truth was that miners were to be sacrificed in the interests of the squatters. They governed only for a class, and said, in effect, to tho others: We do not intend to let you govern yourselves any longer. It was a democracy of the worst kind which they wanted to call into existence, and they would yet have to repent in sackcloth and ashes. He then pointed out the opportunity the Government had lost, and showed how they might have introduced measures of a beneficial character, beginning by arranging an equitable system of taxation, which would yield a much larger revenue than that enjoyed at the present time, by helping eacli district to support itself, and by breaking np the runs held by a certain class, so that forty or fifty families might dwell in happiness and plenty on the acres now held by one man, so that the whole of Hew Zealand might be peopled by contented communities able to support themselves instead of as now depending entirely upon borrowed capital. They could then ask the people to consider the prospects held out to them, and to return representatives to that House to battle for whichever cause they chose. Then they would he able to say that the Constitution henceforth was based upon the election of every man iu the colony, and every man when old age had crept on him would be able to say, “ I was one of the founders of that system iu which you now triumph.” That, he said, would have been a better course to pursue to promote the welfare of the country. And even now it was not too late. It was still open to them. Instead of this, however, the Government proposed to land a new Parliament in tho midst of difficulties. With a monkey-like mischief, they proposed to destroy and not to create. (Applause.) The request lie made was very moderate, namely, that they should consult the people on this great question. It would be extremely gratifying to bim to hear them say that. But if they pursued the ether course, the shock which the credit of the colony must sustain would come from them and not from him. Then the general collapse which would take place on the stoppage of their expenditure would emanate from themselves, and they would be resonsible for it. When the Art should be sent Home for assent, and was disallowed, as it surely would be, there could be no appeal from that ; and eventually they would be undeceived when they came to be trapped iu litigation. All of which might have been avoided, at the same time that they might have conferred a benefit on the country, by pursuing the course which he had pointed out to them; and he conjured them to pause while there was yet time in the reckless course which they vowed they would pursue. Sir George then resumed his seat amid the cheers of the Opposition. Sir DOHALD McLEAH, in reply, said the reasons which had, doubtless, induced Sir George Grey to send Home his despatch iu the year 1852, had now entirely disappeared. There was no doubt whatever that the settlements referred to by Sir George Grey were iu a very poor and straggling condition iu the early days of the colony, and it was necessary that they should have local powers in consequence of the want of communication, which at that time was so severely felt. These were the reasons assigned by the hon. member for City West for granting additional powers to these centres of population ; but in tho altered condition of the colony, these reasons no longer existed. The most ardent provinciab'st could never have imagined that those institutions were to he a permanency. They were always looked upon rather as of a temporary character. They (the Government) were told that they were sweeping away provincial institutions illegally. It was said they had no authority for doing so. But the authority they held was the authority of the people. (Cheers.) He did not think the House could deny that authority, and it came with the overwhelming weight of experience—(hear, hear) —which told them most emphatically that provincial institutions having ceased to carry out their functions, should also cease to exist. That they had ceased to perform those functions was patent to every one, and the Government contended that they should therefore disappear, and leave the Government of the country to that Assembly and local institutions. As to what Sir George Grey had said with reference to the race of men who settled in Canterbury and Otago, could it be supposed that it was this Constitution that had made them hardy ? Would they not have been the same hardy and enterprising race under a good form of Government framed by themselves ? It was not through the agency of Sir George Grey. He (Sir Donald McLean) would not deny for a moment that a great deal of good had been done by provincial institutions iu the early days. He believed they performed efficiently the duties with which they were entrusted. But the time had come when those duties failed, and the Assembly felt impelled to take the matter up. When the Act of 1867 was passed, he saw that it was a death blow to provincialism, and that was followed by subsequent legislation, until it bad been found necessary to take the present step. It stood to reason that they should not have nine Provincial Governments when there was nothing for them to do hut to come to that Assembly anti ask for money, which could be distributed with greater advantage to tho people did those Provincial Governments not exist. In the last session of the Auckland Provincial Government they found tho hon member for Parnell telling them that the Government would find great difficulty in carrying on, for want of funds. If that was the case, what reason could be shown in favor of perpetuating this system of government? He believed that the sooner provincial institutions were swept away the better it would he for the peace, prosperity, and good government of this country. (Hear.) That House would then be the ruling power ; public opinion would be brought to bear upon them forcibly, and they would be brought face to face with the people from one end of the colony to the other. (Hoar.) The hon. member for City West said they held out delusive hopes. That he denied. A clear statement had been brought down, which showed what the position of the country actually was. And the people would believe that statement. Notwithstanding what had been said the Government were determined to act up to it. Tho hon. member had referred to meetings being held at different parts of the country, and also stated that bribes iiad been offered by tbe Government. Well, were they to suppose that the people were not to bo consulted iu those matters so nearly affecting them ? Were they not to communicate with them and ascertain their wants ? (Sir Geougis Gkey ; Hear, hear.) The hon. member then refers to the members of the present Government, and takes exception to all of them, speaking of one or two as rejected superintendents. All he (Sir Donald McLean) could say was that the present Premier was a man who had been in high political positions during the greater part of his life, and for years had administered affairs with great care and ability. With reference to tho member for Egmont, that gentleman had held portfolios iu previous Governments, and be failed to see what objection could be taken to liim. And iu reference to tho Aliuistor of J ustice, he could only say he was also a man who, though yet young, would in the future make a name for himself iu the political world. He gave fair promise of it, and would no doubt fulfil that promise. The hon. gentleman also referred to a communication with the Minister of Justice and the Chief-Justice, with reference to a legal opinion given by him. No opinion was asked from tho Chief-J ustice. The facts wore these: The hon. member for City West had asked tor the production of an opinion previously given by the Chief-Justice. Search was made, but it could not be found, and tho Chief Justice was then written to for an explanaiion. Ho was not going to follow the hon. gentleman’s many remarks, but would state in reference to what lie had said regarding the credit of the colony, that he believed nothing would more greatly enhance the credit of the colony, its stability and progress, than the abolition of provincialism. (Cheers.) If that

hou. gentleman would only take carefully into consideration the time that had elapsed since he recommended them, and the change which had taken place in the position of the country, he would have to admit that the time had arrived for abolition of the Provinces. (Hear.) Earl Grey, Secretary for the Colonies at the time the Constitution Act was framed,, was farsighted enough to see as settlement advanced iu°the colony, and as the people were enabled to come together by efficient means of communication, that Provincial Governments would sink down to the character of municipal institutions. In reference to the proposals of the Government, he believed that they were clear and uumistakeable, and they would be in a position to carry out the plans laid down. As to their ruining the mining industry, and so forth, he denied that the Government were guilty of anything of the sort. Every man had a right to vote, and having exercised it, his vote became a component part of that Assembly. He was sorry to hear the hon. member introducing elass differences. The worst thing that could happen to that Assembly was the introduction of new ideas, which should separate class from class, and bring about changes which were not contemplated. Mr. READER WOOD said he should not attempt in the smallest degree to follow the two last speakers with regard to their particular views as to the wisdom or opposite of the alteration in the Constitution of this country. Opinions, doubtless, would differ greatly on that point ; but he did not think that had very much to do with the question before them, or that the House would desire to see the debate on that point prolonged. The real question was as to the legality of the course they were entering upon, and he thought this subject had not been thoroughly exhausted, although... treated with enormous ability by the hon. member for City AVest, and by opposite ability by members on the Ministerial benches, He was astonished to hear the Colonial Treasurer say that the measures were for the good of the country whether they were constitutional or not, and would be carried out through the power of the people. Their power was limited. If not constitutional, their resolutions would be as idle as so many resolutions passed’ in the back parlor of a public-house. They must first show that the Act came within the four corners of the Constitution. The matter was not argued out, and they would have to rest on the authority of those who knew better than any gentleman in that House. Mr. AVood then referred to the opinion expressed by Mr. Gillies that, as a doubt existed as to the legality, the Government should seek the opinions of the law officers of the Crown, in order to remove that doubt. He would point out that the Government had not acted on that advice, and asked them why they had not done so ? AVhen that Act should be disallowed by her Majesty, they could not reproach their legal advisers. After some further remarks, Mr. Wood referred to the Financial Statement, which he said was not intelligible. East session Mr. Vogel had assured them there was abundance of funds, and yet when he got to London he stated that three millions must be negotiated at once, or he could see nothing before them but disaster. Last year he had pretty plainly expressed his views on the abolition question, and he would have been prepared to support the Bill if it had represented his views in the smallest degree. As it was, he had to oppose it. It had been alleged by an hon. gentleman during the course of this debate that the state of Auckland was a disgrace to the country. But he would say that whatever grounds there might be in the past for such an accusation as this, there existed none at the present time. Like a good but poor man who had met with adversity, the province of Auckland was struggling with difficulties. Some of these financial difficulties arose during the illness of the late Superintendent. The fact that about that time one leading politician went on a visit to England, while another was taken away on business to another part of the colony, led to his being called upon to take charge of the finances of the province. AVhat was the course that he and his colleagues adopted with an exhausted treasury ? Why, it was the simple one of declining to incur liabilities on the part of the province which there was no prospect of meeting, so that when they were requested to enter on various expenditures for public works, he and his colleagues at once boldly said “ AVe have not got the money, and therefore the province shall not incur these liabilities.” And what was the consequence ? AVhy, the province of Auckland owes no debts. AVe are poor, but we can pay our way. It was, therefore, an unfair remark for the hon. gentleman to moke. Auckland could pay its way years ago, and if it ceased to be able to do so, it would be the fault of this House. He considered that if the Abolition Bill were passed in its present form it would plunge the colony into a maelstrom of financial difficulty. He then referred to the way in which the funds derived from the sale of the Crown lands in the provinces of Canterbury and Otago had been used for the embellishment of the capital towns of those provinces. He mentioned the provincial system as the necessary out-growth of the circumstances in which ihe early settlers of the colony were placed. They were, in fact, the only form of local government possible. But in process of time the outlying districts as they became peopled, felt that their interests were neglected and began to complain. It was therefore the business of the Legislature to afford them relief. The principle of the Bill now before the House is not the abolition of provinces, but the substitution for these of provincial districts — the same thing, only under another name. The stereotyped form of laws is still retained. AVe are not to have Superintendents of provinces forsooth, but in their ’ place satraps appointed by the Central Government. He believed the real object of the Bill to be an attempt to cover an enormous deficiency in the revenue. He then x'eviewed at some length the financial features of the Bill, and referred to the statement of revenue and expenditure, making use of the same figures, but re-arranging them so as to bring out as a result a largo deficiency in the unexpended revenue, and stated his conviction to bo that the effect of the Abolition Bill before the House would be to throw the finances of the colony into inextricable confusion. Mr. PYICE had some doubts as to the propriety of his addressing the House, after, the speeches that ho had heard delivered ; yet he was bound to say that, though those speeches were most magnificent specimens of eloquence, yet they did not present a single argument or convincing point for a mind which had given the subject at issue any thought to reflect upon. He quoted the words used by an old and respected member of the House—the member for Avon—in regard to the overgovernment of the colony, as expressing his views of the subject much better than he could himself. Ho thought, however, that the haste with which the Government measures were being forced through the House was unwise and unfair, and Ministers would be wise if they postponed the final passing of tho Bill until after an appeal should have been made to the constituencies. Nevertheless, as the Government had announced their intention to push the Bill through, ho might declare the rule which should regulate his own conduct. He would vote for the second reading, and endeavor to amend what was objectionable in committee, and his final vote would depend largely upon the shape in which the measures came out of committee. The provinces had become in fact more centralising institutions than tho General Government itself, and he quoted instances from his own experience in Otago to prove his assertion. As for the Bill itself, he thought tho most important point in it had been left untouched by previous speakers, namely, the land fund appropriation. But for tho clauses in the Bill on that point he would not vote for tho Bill, and if these clauses were struck out in committee, he would oppose the passing of tho Bill. All tho evils of squatterdom which had been described by Opposition members, were due to the Provincial Governments, who had granted tho pastoral leases under which progress and settlement had been alike prevented. Ho praised tho administration of the laud laws in Otago and Canterbury, by the Waste Lands Boards there. He did not think that tho local Government Bill, in its present shape, would

i ever pass the House. He considered that a division of the colony into shires would have been far preferable to that of provincial districts. However, he looked on all the measures as merely tentative, and as being so he considered it the duty of honorable member to try and improve them. Dhe people desired the proposed changes, had desired them for eight years, and showed all over the country now that they desired them. He asked members not to mangle the Bill in committee, but to do their best to improve it, and make it a useful measure for the country, and he would earnestly ask Sir George Grey to do this. Mr. THOMSON characterised the speech of Major Atkinson in introducing the Bill as an utter failure. It should have been introduced by Mr. Stafford, a matter which could have been easily brought about by the resignation of the Government and the acceptance of office by Mr. Stafford. Mr. O’CONOR moved the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed upon, and it was accordingly adjourned until half-past seven o’clock this evening.