PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4180, 13 August 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, August 12. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at two o’clock. PETITION. The Hon. Mr. Mantell presented a petition from Mohi Manugakahia, of Whangapoa, praying that investigation may be made into the operation of the Native Lands Act, 1873. ASYLUM FOR THE DEAF, DUMB, AND BLIND. The Hon. Colonel BRETT brought forward the motion in the hope that Government would take steps to alleviate the sad condition of a large proportion of our fellow-creatures. There are 800,000 people who have made this country their home, and ho thought the Government had culpably neglected its duties with regard to those poor creatures, who formed a considerable portion of this population. In this Colony there were 113 who were afflicted by the visitation of God alone, and no steps were taken for their amelioration, while care was taken of those who, by brutal dissipation and the worst and most degraded form of vice, had brought evil upon themselves. He considered it right that a Central Asylum should be established for them, where they could be taught to read and write, so that they could search the Scriptures ; and he had no doubt there were hospitals, asylums, and reformatories for wicked boys and girls. They were squandering money in thousands broadcast over the land. He felt confident that he should not appeal in vain to the Colonial Secretary, who was a humane and benevolent man, and ho felt confident that he should enlist the sympathy of the Council in the cause which he had so feebly brought forward. He moved —“ That this Council deem it desirable that an Asylum should be established in a central position in the Colony for the support, education, and instruction in trades of the blind, deaf, and dumb residing in New Zealand.” The Hon. Captain FRASER cordially seconded the motion. They were about to spend millions, and he thought a few hundreds could be spared for so laudable an object. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN felt sorry that his hon. friend on the left should have had to complain of the returns. He had done all in his power in collecting them. The difficulty in this case was that these unfortunate people were so scattered that it would be almost impossible to collect them in a central establishment. He thought that local institutions would be far better. He would, however, not vote against the motion. The Hon, Colonel BRETT felt very grieved that he received no encouragement from the Government, and therefore he appealed to the Council to put pressure on the Government. It would be impossible to obtain persons from England to educate them separately, and he therefore appealed to his hon. friends to put pressure on the Government for this purpose. The motion was carried nem. con. APPROACHES TO THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBERS. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL moved,—' 1 That it is the duty of the Government to maintain in due order the approaches to the Legislative Chambers.” Carried. OTAGO WASTE LANDS. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES moved the second reading of the Otago Waste Lands Act Amendment Bill. The Hon. Captain FRASER seconded the motion. The Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL moved that the Bill be read that day six months. On a division, the amendment was earned by 14 to 13. [The discussion on this Bill was very lengthy, occupying greater part of the afternoon and evening sittings. We are compelled to withhold our report of the debate.] WELLINGTON WATERWORKS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Hon, Mr. WATERHOUSE, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that its object was to increase the loan from £25,000 to £50,000, the former sum having been found inadequate to the purpose. The motion was carried, and the Bill read a second time. BANKRUPTCY ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Hon. Mr. BONAR, in moving the second reading of the Bill, explained the nature of the amendments. The motion was carried, and the Bill read a second time. WELLINGTON VOLUNTEER SCRIP EXTENSION BILL. The Hon. Captain BAILLIE in moving the second reading of this Bill stated its objects. The Hon. Colonel BRETT moved as an amendment, that the Bill be read "a second time that day six months. The Hon. Mr. STOKES supported the amendment. He did not see what claim Volunteers had more than Militia or Jurymen. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE objected to the Bill, as he did not think there was any scrip remaining in the hands of the Volunteers. , The Hon. Mr. FRASER supported the amendment, and thought it was treating the Council with contempt to bring forward such a measure. The Hon. Mr. BONAR hoped the Council would pass the second reading. He thought it was but right that those who had given their services for the benefit of the Colony should have this slight recognition of their services. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN knew that there was no scrip now in the hands of the Volunteers. He had seen scrip of the value of £35 hawked about for sale for so many shillings. The Hon. Mr. PATERSON supported the motion. The Hon. Captain BAILLIE, in replying, reminded the Council that the safety of the North Island had depended on the Volunteers years ago when they turned out readily. On a division, the amendment was carried by 12 to 5. NEW PLYMOUTH HARBOR BOARD ENDOWMENT BILL. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES, in moving the second reading, said that the object of the Bill was to provide a harbor of refuge at Taranaki. There was no harbor for 100 miles along the coast. From the Engineer’s report it appeared that the most suitable site would bo opposite the harbor, and the cost would be about £300,000. The amount of water sheltered would be 123 acres. They thought the harbor should be considered a national work, as there was no harbor of refuge on the West Coast for a distance of 700 miles where a vessel could ride out a westerly gale. The collateral advantages accruing from this work were also pointed out in the report. The Hon. Mr. FRASER said that there was as good a harbor as need be in the neighborhood. He should therefore move that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. The Hon. Mr. HART thought that the hon. mover ofjthe amendment had mistaken the object of the Bill. The construction of the harbor would double, treble, or quadruple the value of the land. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE doubted if a harbor of refuge could be constructed for the money. But what kind of a harbor would it bo ? From the report it appeared that if a vessel attempted to sail in through the narrow entrance she must infallibly go ashore. Then, again, one-fourth of the land was to be tied up for this purpose. There were other reasons why the Bill should be postponed. _ The Railway from Wanganui to Taranaki - had been authorised, and when complete Taranaki would be in communication with Wanganui, Patea, and other ports. The Hon. Mr. MILLER thought they would be doing a very rash thing if they throw out the Bill. The harbor, if constructed, would tend to develop the resources of the Province and raise it from its present low rank. These works would add materially to the wealth, not only of the Province, but of the Colony. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON suggested that they should wait until they saw how other works of a similar nature answered. The Hon. Col. KENNY suggested that both the motion and the amendment should bo withdrawn, so that the Bill could be brought in again, aa that course would be less painful

than refusing the request of the little Province who had had but little of the good things that were going. The Hon. Messrs. Peacock and Mantell supported the motion. The Hon. Mr. BONAR also supported the motion, and in corroboration of the remarks made by the Hon. Dr. Menzies, he would mention that Taranaki had to pay more than double what any other Province had to pay. The cost of landing goods was £15,000 in one year, and then if the Bill were passed an increased value would immediately be given to the land. He should certainly give his support to the Bill. The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY said that as it was considered a colonial work it was time enough to introduce a Bill of • this kind when the colonists had expressed a desire to that effect. , The Hon. Mr. PATERSON suggested that such a work as that contemplated by the Bill might well be deferred until other works of a similar nature had been tested, and that the Province should not be debarred from setting aside the fourth part of their revenue for this purpose. The Hon. Mr. STOKES thought it would bo well to wait until they saw what changes were made in the North Island, He thought a little delay in this case would be more beneficial to the interests of the Province than hastily passing a measure such as this. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES replied at length. On a division, the amendment was lost by 14 to 7. , . The Bill was then read a second time. The Council adjourned at 11.15 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 11. IMMIGRATION AND PUBLIC WORKS LOAN. Mr." YOGEL, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it might interest hon. members to know the indebtedness of the Colony. The indebtedness, after deducting Sinking Fund due, amounted to £12,494,000, of which £9,229,000 were upon Colonial account, and £3,265,000 upon Provincial account. He need scarcely inform hon. members that the Provincial indebtedness was secured upon the landed estate of the Grown lands of the Colony, and the Colonial indebtedness a charge upon the Consolidated Revenue. That amount would be reduced by the sum of £IOO,OOO Treasury Bills, which it was proposed to wipe off on the Ist November next. The loans already authorised, but not yet raised, were £827,000 of the Public Works Loan of 1870 ; £500,000 of the loan of 1873 ; £192,000 of the Defence aud other purposes loan ; £531,000 of the general purposes loan, besides an amount of £22,000 not raised .under the North Otago Public Works Loan Act. In all there was £2,051,000 loans authorised but not raised on Colonial account, and £22,000 of Provincial loans not yet raised. It might be asked why it was proposed to raise another loan when there was so much of the power already given unexhausted. The answer was that, it was considered desirable to keep £BOO,OOO of the loan of 1870 — debentures guaranteed by the Imperial Government—should’remain unsold as a reserve fund. He would give some information to the House with respect to the total expenditure that had proceeded under the Public Works and Immigration Loans. The total receipts up to the 30th June last, and brought to account within the Colony, was £3,870,000, which included £lso,oooadvauced to the Consolidated Revenue, as explained in the Financial Statement. The disbursements, according to the Treasury books, up to June 30 last were, in round numbers—railway account, £2,070,000 ; immigration account, £401,000 ; roads in North Island, £371,000 ; water supply to goldfields, £100,000; purchase of lands in the North Islfuid, £214,000 ; telegraphic extension, £90,000 ; unappropriated, £57,000 ; interest and sinking fund for works in course of construction, £143,000 ; advances to Road Boards, £150,000 ; leaving a balance of £268,000 — £144,000 in cash and £123,000 outstanding advances. It must be borne in mind that a great deal of the expenditure for public works consisted of advances, and it took two or three months before expenditure in England could be brought to account in the Colony. It might also interest hon. members to have a statement of the loans authorised for public works and immigration purposes, and the purposes to which the various loans had been devoted. In making that statement, the loan now proposed was taken into account. There would then be a total of ten millions, viz., four millions in 1870 ; two millions last year ; and the four .millions for which authority was now asked. Of this ten millions, six and a-half millions were devoted to railway purposes ; one and a-half millions to inimigration purposes ; £460,000 to roads in the North Island ; £350,000 to water works on goldfields; £700,000 to land purchases in the North Island; and £490,000 for telegraphic exten-. sion, light-houses, and other public works. Hon. members would understand he had said that, although with the four millions now asked for, a total of tea millions had been obtained, the actual expenditure up to the 30th of June last was only £8,870,000 ; and that there were considerable sums uunegotiated of the loans already authorised ; and that a large amount of that was represented by the guaranteed debentures which it was considered desirable to keep as a reserve fund. For the rest, although a small loan would supply our present needs, it was thought desirable to take authority for a large amount, so as to take advantage of the money market when a favorable opportunity occurred to negotiate as much as it might be thought advisable. Although the difference as representing the interest which the Colony had to pay against the interest which it received on current deposit represented some amount of loss—a margin of a half or one per cent.—yet it was thought better and most desirable to render the works of the Colony independent, to a certain extent, of the fluctuations of the money market, and to be sure to have money in hand to go on with the great undertakings to which the Colony had pledged itself. He did not know what further explanations he could make in regard to the Bill. It was strictly for the purpose of carrying on the policy to which very few members of the House were not utterly pledged. He moved the second reading of tho Bill. Mr. FITZHERBERT was not in the House when the earlier part of the Premier’s explanation was made ; but as he heard the Premier’s explanations, the Bill contained some points of novelty which it would be well to have explained. He understood the Premier’s argument to be this :—We have a large amount of debentures available for negotiation ; nevertheless, we think it desirable to ask the House for four millions more. So far he entirely went with the Premier. He urged very strongly some time since, when it was a question of having negotiated £200,000 of the guaranteed million, that it was a bad financial transaction. He thou ventured to describe that loan as a kind of loan which it would be prudent to put by against a rainy day, when our credit might not be so much in the ascendant as it had been. He was glad to find £BOO,OOO of the guaranteed million available at a future time against a rainy day. The argument in favor of tho Bill seemed to be this:— The Government asked for four millions ; they might find a favorable opportunity for putting the loan on the market; and if they had authority, although they did not want money, it would be better that they should be in a position to take advantage of that opportunity. So far he was glad to see a principle he had advocated recognised, but it appeared to him to be strangely inconsistent with some of the provisons of the Bill. The argument of the Premier in asking for this authority was that ho would not go into tho market unless there was a favorable opportunity for doing so ; but that when that opportunity came we should embrace it. The large experience of the hon. member at the head of the Government should have induced him to recognise that it did not do to worry, ferret, and vex the money market at Home by constant applications. How did the principle before referred to fit with tho principle contained in the eleventh section of tho Bill. As he (Mr. Fitzherbert) read that section, power was given to issue short dated debentures commensurate with the magnitude and extent of the loan itself. Section 6 seemed to bo in accordance therewith. What then became of the argument that obtaining the four

millions was simply an act of prudence, that we had no need for the money during the next financial year. He went with the Premier in so far as to say that it would he better and ■wiser to borrow in advance of our needs, and not be put in a hole by going to the money market to find it adverse to But to him that appeared inconsistent to asking for power to issue the whole of the loan in short dated debentures. If was very possible to quit shortdated debentures when they could not quit longdated ones ; but from the very_ nature of things, asking such authority to shortdated debentures was not consistent 'with the argument that had' been used : to induce the House to sanction a loan in anticipation of our actual wants. ' Prudence required that there should be some limit placed on the' amount of short-dated debentures to be issued. At the very outside the limit should be a million sterling. He hoped the hon. member at the head of the Government would reconsider the matter before going into committee, and say whether or not he would be prepared to modify his proposal to the extent suggested. There were one or two other points which he should have been glad to have some explanation upon. The first was as, to the rate of interest. A great deal of credit had been claimed by the hon. member at the head of the Government for having made efforts to reduce the standard rate of interest on our loans. The Premier’s efforts had been to reduce that which was fixed as the standard—and he (Mr. Fitzherbert) believed a very good standard, at a certain date. He was not at all sure that that standard had been wisely departed from, though he did not wish to offer any dogmatic opinion, because what might be sound practice to-day might not bo. so another year. The standard fixed,was five per cent. ; and he thought it would have been weUif it had been retained, because it had the obvious advantage of giving uniformity to our stock. The hon. gentleman had at various times taken credit for his attempts to reduce that standard—first to 44 per cent,, then to 4 per cent., then to 4J or 44 per cent., and now they came to an altogether different scale. It would be a great relief to have some explanation of the grounds for the change ; it was so entirely an alteration of the opinion the Premier held last year. If his memory served him right, efforts were made in every direction in which it was believed our debentures would be absorbed —whether in the limited- hdine market of New Zealand, in the Australian Colonies, or in any other way—to push off our 4 per cent, debentures. We had lately quitted some at 44 per cent. Why, he asked, was the maximum now fixed at 6 per cent. ? These were points he thought it was desirable to have some explanation upon, and he commended them very much to the consideration of the head of the Government. If the House had confidence in the Government, it could not do less than vote the power asked for to raise money, and it was for the House to limit what should be the expenditure in each year. In prudent hands that was not an unwise thing. He had himself preached such a doctrine, and was not there to impugn it. Mr. T. ■ B. GILLIES did not intend to oppose the second reading of the Bill, for it was plain that it was necessary the House should give power to raise this additional loan. The Premier had told the House that out of the £3,870,000 authorised tb bo raised for .railway purposes £3,600,000 had been expended, leaving only a balance in hand of £144,000 in cash. He (Mr. Gillies) did not pay much attention to the £123,000 which the Premier stated was out on advances. There was then £144,000 in hand to prosecute railways, and the House knew from the statement of the Minister for Public Works that there were from £1,600,000 to £I,BO - 0,000 of actual liabilities. Therefore, it was clear that they must authorise the Government to raise further money. They must have authority to borrow more. His object in rising was to call the attention of the House, and, through the House, the attention of the country to the pace at which the Colony was going on -with its borrowing. He would take the Premier’s figures as just given to the House. On the 30th June last the amount borrowed on debentures, after deducting Sinking Euud—he would give the Premier the advantage of the Sinking Fund —amounted to £12,494,000. According to the tables attached to the Financial Statement the amount was £12,509,000 ; but that was only a difference of a few thousands. The Premier also showed that the Government had power to borrow on unexpended borrowing power—loans authorised, but not yet raised —to the extent of £2,051,000 ; in addition to which, the House was now asked to give a further borrowing power of four millions. If the House gave that power to the Government, and the Government exercised the powers which it already possessed, the indebtedness of the Colony would amount, according to the Premier’s own statement, to eighteen and a half millions —to £13,545,000 He asked hon. members and the country generally to think over these figures, and to ask themselves what it meant, and whence the money to pay interest on that amount was to come. Long ago there were a good many members who, with'himself, urged prudence in this great borrowing, and he was only glad to see now, after four years’ trial of this great borrowing scheme, the Premier acting on the maxims of prudence then attempted to be inculcated upon him. He was also glad to see that the Premier began to feel that there might be a time when our credit would not carry us necessarily to the money market; that he began to see, as he said in his financial statement, that" the money, market was getting tight. He ' (Mr. Gillies) rather thought it was getting tight;' l He had no doubt the Premier had had advice: that there would be very great difficulty in . [placing a loan upon the money market during the next year. There * would be great difficulty,i, not because of any scarcity of money but because the credit of the Colony had been 'unnecessarily abused. It had been so constantly used during the last four years that the money market was getting tired of the Colony coming so. constantly borrowing and begging. They had an example in the last million and a half loan. That loan did not float upon the market in the first instance. When the tenders were called for, not half the amount was subscribed for, and in order to get it run off privately a concession had to be given of one per cent. Looking at that sign of the money market, we could not expect to float a loan successfully during the next year. He , called attention to these tilings ; and he had merely been stating what had been uttered by the Premier himself. He was not, therefore, surprised, although no explanation was given for asking for such an unusual power, to find power sought to issue short dated debentures, and not only to issue, but to renew them from time to time. Clause 6 gave power to issue short dated debentures to the full ■ amount of the loan ; and under the 10th clause these debentures could be renewed from time to time. , All these things showed that the 1 Premier was becoming cautious, and discerning thatpur credit was not so good as it iuul been. He called the attention of hon. members to the fact that this Bill, with the exception of the sixth clause referring to short dated debentures, was almost a transcript of the original Bill of. 1870. There was this marked difference between the two Bills: In the Act of 1870, power was only taken to raise one and a-half millions on short dated debentures ; but, under the present Bill, power was asked to so raise the whole amount. The alteration was very significant of the Premier's estimation of the facilities for raising money in the English market. Looking at the rate of interest named in this Bill, and in the Act of 1870, and comparing them with the Premier’s self laudations, in regard to the prioeat which previous loans had been raised, it was very extraordinary, as had been remarked by the member for the Hntt, that power should be asked to raise this loan at 6 per cent. He did not by any means say that that price would be paid, for he was sure the Premier would take care to float the loan at the best possible rate., , Surely the change in the rate of interest was ominous. If the Premier believed in his finance, ho ought not to require that power. It would bo, quite sufficient to take a limit of (lor 5J per centb In this.and many other things,, the Premier was accepting as right doctrines which twb years ago he utterly poohpoohed.'' ‘ He was'glad, to see him placing interest upon the consolidated funds to a much larger extent than he formerly

thought it necessary to do; and placing subsidies to Hoad Boards on the consolidated funds, instead of talcing them out of loan. He was glad to see him taking these prudent courses, and would heartily support him in them ; he only hoped the Premier would not be a little too late in entering upon them. The House could not do otherwise than grant the four millions asked, as, according to the Minister for Public Works, it was quite clear the money was required for the purposes of the year. If the works went on as well and as rapidly during the current year as they had done during the last twelve months, at least two millions would be required to meet the works that would have to be paid for during that time, while, as he had before said, only £144,000 remained in hand out of the loans already authorised to be raised. He repeated he would not oppose the Bill, and that he merely desired to point out to the House and to the country what it meant. He trusted they would not be alarmed at the large amount of liabilities : all he asked was that they should have their eyes open to the large amount of liability the Colony was incurring. The Colony could not fail to meet its liabilities ; but if they became so large, it struck him that some would have to suffer to pay them. He had nothing more to say. Mr. BEEVES agreed with the hon. member for the Hutt, in hoping that the Premier would modify the Bill so as to lessen the amount to be raised by short dated debentures. He thought the statement of the hon. gentleman in bringing forward the Bill, to a greater or lesser extent somewhat disingenuous. The House undoubtedly gave to the hon. gentleman an amount of confidence that might be said to be unparalleled in the history of the Colony ; and he thought the least the Premier could have done would have been to reciprocate that confidence. Bat the hon. gentleman’s explanation in bringing forward the Bill fell far short of • doing so. The Bill undoubtedly contained new provisions, and so far as he was aware those peculiar provisions were not in the slightest degree alluded to in the socalled explanation of the Bill. In that the Premier had failed in his duty to himself and to the House ; and he trusted he would accede to the request of the member for the Hutt, and give up part of the great power he now asked at the hands, of the House, which he (Mr. Beeves) for his part considered quite unnecessary. The Premier had already power to raise two millions, and now asked to raise four millions more. He (Mr. Beeves) was not at all surprised at this. Those members who were present at the commencement of the borrowing must have failed to understand the scope of the scheme altogether if they did not see it involved an expenditure of something like ten millions. Nor did he at all object to the hon. gentleman taking power to raise this money at such times as might be most advantageous to the Colony. The peculiar powers asked for in this Bill were very unnecessary, and might be extremely dangerous. Mr. THOMSON thought the hon. the Premier had spoken under restraint, as if he had not a pleasant tale to tell. The hon. gentleman did not explain the provisions of the Bill, or why the rate of interest of six per cent, or why the whole amount should be raised on short-dated debentures. It looked as if the Premier must have money, even if he paid a high price for it. They had spent £3,600,000 on railways, and there was very little to show for it. Money was being spent in many ways never contemplated when the public works policy was entered on. During the recess a large sum had been spent on Ministerial residences. There was over £SOO spent on a tank in Tinakori Boad. But he was not aware that expenditure of that kind was contemplated last session. The cost of the tank would have built two schoolhoiises. (Laughter.) Mr. MUBBAY asked the Premier not to proceed with the Bill in Committee until his speech on immigration was in print. Mr. VOGEL declined to notice the remarks of the member for Clutha. The member for the Hutt seemed to have misunderstood what he (Mr. Vogel) had said on the subject of the necessity for borrowing, as a large portion of his speech seemed to have been made on the assumption that he (Mr. Vogel) said there was sufficient money in hand as not to make it necessary that there should be further borrowing at present. What he did say was this ; Seem 0, how large an amount of the power of borrowing was unexhausted, it, might be desired to know why it was necessary to come down for a further Loan Bill this session. He explained that a large amount of money was locked up by the guaranteed debentures, which were kept as a reserve fund. The House had been given to understand that the Bill differed very materially from previous Bills, but the rate of interest was the same rate as appeared in the Bill of last year, and in the Bill of 1870. (Hear.) Since there was nothing in that rate inconsistent with obtaining the loan at 44 per cent., why now desire to alter it ? A European war would, throw up very much the rate of interest at which borrowing could be effected ; and they should take precautions to be on the right side, if necessary. It was said that a much larger power was taken than before. It wasquite true that the Bill of 1870 limited the amount of short dated debentures to be authorised to one million, whilst in the Bill of last year a limit was not inserted. The eleventh clause of the latter Bill simply said the total amount of outstanding short or long dated debentures should not exceed the amount of the loan authorised; and that clause appeared in the present Bill. It might be asked why take further power to issue short dated debentures. It depended entirely upon the state of the money market whether it was desirable to make the debentures short or long dated. Ho could not think it was inadvisable to give a discretionary power in the hands of the Government in case it should bo desirable to exercise it. Anyone who occupied the position of Colonial Treasurer must feel great anxiety in carrying on large -works which depended on borrowed money, and there could be no doubt that his anxiety was very much increased when a Colonial Treasurer experienced, as he had felt, not only in New Zealand but in Great Britain jear after year accounts calculated rather to depreciate the credit of the Colony than to raise it. When he considered the difficulties that hid been thrown in the way of carrying out the great schemes on which the Colony had entered during the past four years, he marvelled how our credit should be so high ; and he marvelled moreover, how anyone cculd have endured what he had. There were some in the country who gloated over anything likely to injure the credit of the Colony. If he had again to contend against what he had to contend against during, the last four years, with the full knowledge that success would attend in the end, he would not do it ; he would not .again undergo the same anxiety and loss of health. What was the position of the country now ? He took leave to say that no one could fail to see that property in the Colony had been increased in value by the public works and immigration policy to an extent to cover all the expenditure that had been going on during the past four years. (Hear.) The increased value of property covered over and over again the risk the Colony was running, and the indebtedness it was incurring. The country could afford to be taxed over and over again beyond what it was taxed, in consideration of tlie wealth which it had amassed and was amassing in consequence of carrying on those operations. Look at the revenue as it stands and compare it with the revenue of the last four years. In 1873 the revenue was £936,000 ; and in 1873-4, it was £1,420,000. There was an increase in 1871-2 over the previous year of 10*13 per cent. ; in 18/2-3 over the previous year of B*6 percent. ; and in 1873-4 the increase over the previous year was 26*8 ; so that there was an increase in 1874 on the revenue of 1870-1 of 51 per cent. The difference between the revenue of 1873-4 and that of 1870-1 was £484,000, an amount more than sufficient to pay 4f per cent, upon the whole amount of ten millions. With these results before them he did not think there was any cause for alarm, nor did he think any one in his mind really felt any alarm. If the Colony received any check he for one would be inclined to attribute it not so much as owing to the acta of the Government as to the acts of those who were opposed to the Government.

Mr. REEVES entreated the Premier not to pass the Bill through that night, but to spare the House the stigma of passing one of the largest measures through the House in the shortest time a Loan Bill had ever occupied. The second reading was then agreed to. Wednesday, August 12. REPORT ON VOLUNTEERS. Mr. STEWARD asked, —“ When the annual report of the Inspector of Volunteers would be laid on the table.” Sir D. McLEAN replied that he had one portion of the Inspector of Volunteer’s report, and when complete it would be laid on the table. ROADS FROM TAURANGA TO THAMES, AND TAURANGA TO CAMBRIDGE. Mr. O’NEILL asked,—“ Whether the Government intend to proceed immediately with the construction of roads between the Thames and Taurauga, and between Tauranga and Cambridge.” Mr. RICHARDSON said that it was the intention of the Government to complete, this session, the road between Tauranga and Cambridge. It was also intended to complete the survey of the road between Tauranga and the Thames, but not to do more until another ye. r. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. Mr. VOGEL rose to make an explanation upon the conduct of the business of the session, and especially in reference to the resolutions which he had given notice of for to-morrow. There had been various opinions circulated in the House with respect to the importance which the Government attached to the resolutions, and he desired to make an explicit statement on the subject. At the same time he hoped that hon. members would not come to any conclusion to oppose the resolutions until they heard the arguments which might be adduced in their favor, and which be would have the honor to lay before the House. He must first express his indebtedness to the three hon. gentlemen who had resolutions on the paper before his for the kind manner in which they consented to postpone those resolutions, in order to enable him (Mr. Vogel) to move his resolutions to-morrow afternoon. The Government proposed to proceed with thenresolutions to-morrow afternoon, to go on with the ordinary business on Friday, and to ask that the House should then adjourn till Monday, and devote Monday specially to the further progress of, and if possible the conclusion of the debate on the resolutions—and with respect to the position of the Government in the matter. He stated on a former occasion that the Government had come to the conclusion that an organic change in the government of the North Island was necessary, and that they had not made up their minds whether or not they would bring down resolutions this session. They had subsequently decided to do so. He might say that they were led to that decision by one very important consideration, and it was this : if they initiated the matter this session, when the House had sat for three sessions, and concluded the business next session, it was not possible there could be any constitutional objection to the change being made in the last session of the Assembly, because really they would be merely carrying out what they had initiated and agreed to do this session. It could not be held that ■ their proceedings woitld emasculate two years out of the five duringwhich the Parliament sat. By going on with the matter this session an opportunity was afforded for continuing it during the last session of the Parliament, and did not make it necessary to have an election in the meanwhile. With respect to the importance which the Government attached to the resolutions, he had to say that hon. members might consider them to the fullest extent Government resolutions—resolutions upon which the Government staked their position. He wished hon. members to understand plainly that they were not brought down for a mere fancy debate, but as Government resolutions. If the House and the country decided against making a change—rather, did not approve of tlie change—of course the legitimate result would be that the Government of the country would pass into the hands of those who held other views. (Hear.) There was one other matter that he would refer to. He did not see that there was any necessity for the session being extended beyond next week or the early part of the following week. He was told that some threats had been held out by those who intended to oppose the resolutions, that they would endeavor to do so by prolonging the length of tire session, but he treated these threats outside the House as merely idle threats. He did not think members, however earnest in their views, would endeavor to do more than state their views, or that it would be held out as an inducement to hon. members not 1 1 t- eat the subject, tjiat they might have to remain in Wellington any lengthy or unnecessary period. Therefore, he did not see why the session should be unnecessarily prolonged by considering these resolutions. In order to lighten the work of the session, the Government had come to the conclusion not to proceed with the Polynesian Islands Bill further than the second reading this session. They would test the opinion of the House upon it by the second reading, and would not endeavor to pass the measure into law during the present session. They would endeavor to give effect to these resolutions, and hoped that they would receive the unbiassed and unprejudiced support of hon, members. Sir. J. E, BROAVN enquired if the Government treated the resolutions separately*)!- together as Government questions. Mr. VOGEL replied that the resolutions as a whole were so treated. BILLS. The following Bills were read a first time : A Bill to Proride for the Construction of Roads and Public Works; a Bill to Apply Moneys out of Loans as Advances to Provinces for Public Works and other Purposes ; and a Bill to Provide for the Construction and Purchase of Railways. The Goldfields Act Amendment Bill (No. 3), and the Hooper and Norton Registration Bill were read a second time. The Olutha River Trust Reserve Bill, and the Protection of Animals Act Amendment Bill ; Nelson Waste Lands Bill ; Olutha River Trust Bill ; Goldfields Act Amendment Bill ; and Grass and Forest Fires Prevention Bill, were committed and reported. Thefollowing Bills passed : —Thames Mining Tramways Bill ; Highway Road Boards Empowering Bill; and Westland Waste Lands Act Amendment Bill ; the Licensing Bill ; Immigration and Public Works Bill. THE GOLDFIELDS BILL. On the committal of the Goldfields Bill, No. 2, the second clause was opposed by Sir F. D. Bell, Sir J. C. Wilson, Mr. Vogel, and supported by Mr. Shepherd, Mr. T. L. Gillies, Mr. O’Neill, and Mr. Steward. Mr. Vogel proposed an amendment, “ Provided that before making such proclamation the Governor shall be satisfied that no private rights will be prejudiced by his making such proclamation,” which was carried on a division by 25 to 9. Mr. Shepherd’s further amendment, “ Provided that nothing herein contained, shall be considered as restraining or prejudicing any rights belonging to miners under rights or leases held under the Goldfields Act,” was negatived. IMMIGRATION AND WORKS LOAN HILL. The Immigration and Public Works Loan Bill was considered in Committee. On clause 7, Mr Fitzhkrbekt proposed that the limit of short-dated debentures should be one million. Mr. Cuthbertson said no such limit was opposed in 1873 ; Mr. Fitzherbert then made no suggestion such as he had made now, and he should like now to hear some reason for the suggestion. Mr. T. B. Gillies interjected that the loan of 1873 was small Mr. Outhhektson said in 1870 a loan of four millions was proposed ; in 1873, the loans were for a sum exceeding £2,750,000—the difference between the latter sum and the amount now proposed was not so great that there should be any difference in the limit proposed. Mr. Vogel regarded the plan now proposed as much much more simple than haring so many short dated and so many long dated debentures. It was much better policy to leave a discretion in this matter in the hands of the Government. The English telegrams that morning, indeed, spoke of the money market as hardening. It was better to adhere to the form agreed to last session. Mr. - Fitzherbert had understood

that the Premier had given a pledge to the House on the second reading that he would only take the smaller amount on short dated debentures. Mr. Reeves gave his corroboration to the remark of the hon. member for the Hutt, as to Mr. Vogel’s consent to accept the limit of one million of short dated debentures. The Bill as it stood left it in the power of the Premier either to create a four million loan, or to maintain a floating debt of that amount. He was sure, if the former were given to the hon. gentleman, the power would not be abused ; but he might be succeeded in the Treasury of the Colony by some less scrupulous Minister. Mr. Vogel thought the hon. gentleman who had last spoken had got some strange notions into head as to the difference between short and long dated debentures. He denied haring made any such pledge as had been spoken about. On further consideration, he did not think it was desirable to give way, unless the House wished it. The hon. member for the Hutt had also misunderstood his remarks as to the amount of money that would be required during the year. What he had said was that if a favorable opportunity arose it might be desirable to negotiate more.of the loan than was wanted for immediate purposes. When money was wanted it might be found that in the state of the market long dated debentures might not be negotiable. The loans hitherto had been negotiated on terms entirely favorable, and he desired that the loan now proposed should be negotiated on terms equally favorable. If his explanations were not acceptable to the two hon. gentlemen who had spoken; he should desire to have the opinion of the House. After some discussion, in which Mr. T. B. Gillies, Mr. Cuthbertson, and Mr. Johnston, took part, Mr. Vogel stated that he thought it desirable that a Government should adhere to its own Bills rather than allow them to be moulded for them by gentlemen who had lately gone into opposition. Mr. Reeves reiterated his assertion that a pledge had been made and was now broken. Mr Reader Wood thought the Premier had said nothing on the previous evening to prevent him from taking the opinion of the House now. Four millions were wanted, and it was not for the House to tie up the hands of the Government in doing so. The House was ready to give the substance, and was fighting with a shadow. The action of hon. members who opposed the Bill was about the feeblest effort at opposition he had ever seen. If a tenth part of what he heard outside was true, it was the hon. member himself (Mr. Reeves) who would succeed the Treasurer ; why, then, should he be afraid, for no member in the House had more confidence in that hon. member than the hon. member himself 1 Mr Fitzherbert repudiated any other motive in his action in this matter than care for the finance of the Colony. Sir Ckacroft Wilson distinctly stated that no pledge whatever was given by the Premier on the previous evening: “let the truth he told,” said he. Mr. Vogel thanked the hon. member for, his testimony, having himself felt some reluctance to make any statement on the subject. He saw no reason to suppose that the whole of the debentures would be issued. The Government had been charged with being “ arrogant,” by the hon. member for Auckland City West. He did not think the Government had been so, but admitted it would have tried an angel to keep his temper when he found the reverse of an angel opposed to him. He reminded the hon. member that to be successful in opposition it was necessary to be moderate. The clause was then agreed to, and the Bill passed through Committee, reported, read a third time, and passed. WELLINGTON SPECIAL SETTLEMENTS BILL. The Council’s amendments of this Bill were agreed to. The House adjourned at 12.35 a.m.