PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 889, 8 February 1854, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wednesday, February 1, 1854. I The Speakeb announced the assent of the Superintendent to the Fencing Act. Mr. RENAME postponed the motion standing in his name referring to the compensation of settlers for losses sustained during the wars, to to-morrow. The Council went into . Committee on the Scab Bill, many important amendments were

made, and the report was brought up and adopted. On the motion of Mr. Brandon the Licensing Amendment Bill was read a second time. On the motion of the, Prov. Secretary, the Council went into Committee on a supplemen--tary supply, when the following items were 1 •agreed to c — ■ ' ' Interest on Debentures .**.*».>*.».. .£750' Education Commission. .-. i .'* >. v• 50 Printing — Provincial Council 200 Contingencies ...,\ ,w\v,» •• „ •♦ ...ii 30 t Board of Audit, k . , t .» .^. ..,,...... 150 1 "l" l " " "£l,lB0 r i'ep6rt was then brought up and adopted. t>n the motion of the Provincial Secretary, the Contractors Bill was read a second time, tod the Education Act was read ' a third time •and passed. The remaining business was postponed to the next sitting, and the House then adjourned.

Thursday, February "2. compensation to hutt settlers. Mr. Ren'ali. pursuant to notice brought before the Council the claims of those settlers to compensation who had suffered during the Native disturbances' at the Hutt. Their claims he said had been urged upon the former Government, and the answer ..returned had , been that no claim could be allowed without a certificate from the commanding officer. He particularly urged the claims of those who had sheltered ihe women and children -who had during the worst period been driven from their •homes. The Prov. Secretary said the class of claims which ought to receive consideration were those set forth in the Blue Books ; he believed the whole class was riot half so •extensive as was imagined. A commission might be appointed to investigate the grounds of their claims, and the compensation might include those who in their absence had- their property destroyed, and the children of those who were murdered. ! A good deal of discussion ensued, in which Mr. Ludlam/ Mr. , Revans, and Mr/Brown took part. , ; Mr. Wakefield r said that the views expressed ,by the hon. Secretary on" the part of Government appeared to him just and reasonable He was very glad to hear them. , He had always thought, since his attention had been directed to this -subject, -that when the people obtained the powers of self-govern-ment, compensation would be given to those who were justly entitled, to it. He was so well satisfied with the statement of the hon. Secretary that he had hesitated about addressing the House at all ; and now, he would-not say another word, for fear of disturbing the unanimity which prevailed. _ Mr. Revans was of opinion the compensation should 'be against the General Government : it was no local claim, but against the whole community of New Zealand. The subject then dropped. Mr. Ren all said his attention had been drawn to a report of the proceedings in r Council in the Independent in which he was .made to.give notice that he would move "An address to the flovernor in favor of granting 100 .acres of lantl, as 'compensation to each .of those early settlers who had not received compensation from the New Zealaufl Company."'" irhereas his motion was to. the following effect: An address' to 'the Governor praying that his Excellency will be pleased, as soon as the General Assembly shall meet, to recomomend to the favorable consideration of the House of Representatives, and Legislative Council, the -subject of the- Grant of an equitable compensation to those settlers who suffered losses, and other injuries, during the early years of this settlement, ' exeeptiug such ss received compensation for such losses I •and injuries from the New Zealand Company. Nothing j:ould be more incorrect than such a report. If that paper chose to report the proceedings of Council it should report the truth and not exactly the opposite, as such mistakes looked as though they were made intentionally.

• RESIDENT MAGISTRATE. Mr. Revans wished to ask a question of Government with reference to a certain statement made byMr.St. Hill relating to theproposed arrangements for auditing the public accounts. He conceived it to beone of the'grossest affronts, and as leading the public to believe the Superintendent was a liar and the officers of Government were liars. He felt so strongly on this point, that he felt it to be his duty Jo know what course the Government were prepared to take. The Prov. Secretary said his reply' would "be of that nature' as' not to bring on a discussion. He "would state that the Executive deemed it to be their duty under the circum-, stances to demand an explanation from Mr. St. Hill, and for that purpose an Executive Council was summoned for to-morrow. If a discussion were now to take place, the members Government must either leave the House, or attend the Council as partisans. ' • On Mr. Brown rising, the Provincial Secre-, tary and Mr. Brandon left the Council. Mr. Bell protested against thecourse pursued by his hon» colleague (Mr: Revans) as un- . fair and subversive' of all fair discussion. Mr. Brown explained that Mr. St. Hill's statement to him was to the effect; that he had acted in compliance with the request of Sir George Grey, who had desired him to assist the present Government, not as to the Audit in particular, but generally, either in the Audit or any other department. , r Mr. LuDLAM was of opinion Mr. Revans should withdraw the strorig expressions he had used with reference to Mr, St. -Hill, or that other members should be allowed' to express their opinions. .Mr. WAKEMELDsaidthatWgopdcould come of going on with the discussion, which he' hoped would be put au end to by the moderation and prudence of the House. He would not join in accusing the hon. member (Mr.. Revans) of intentionally taking advantage of his position to make charges which could not be answered at the time. He believed, him incapable of 4oing so, and that he had been Carried away, if he would pardon him (Mr. W.) for saying so, by a certain impetuosity which belonged to his character, but that, on reflection, he would see the impropriety of making strong personal re- ( marks hurtful to the feelings of an absent person. Enough had been done ,for his. object, which was to ask a question about,, Mr. St. Hill ; and any further remarks from any body at that time wopld be wpr?e thap useless.

AUDIT. The Prov. Secretary, who had returned, brought up the reports of the Library and Emigration Committees, and explained that the Committee on the Harbour light were not yet in a position to make their report, but hoped to do so before the close of the session. With regard to the Audit, since the refusal of , Mr. St. Hill toi accept the appointment, the application of the Executive to that subject .had been unceasing, andhe hoped the arrangeiments they had made would prove satisfactory. .They had determined to appoint -a Board of two. consisting of Mr. Carkeek and Mr. Bell ; having made this announcement, he hoped there would be no difficulty in suspending the Standing Orders, the Estimates being , now completed, to forward the Appropriation Bill. Mr. Bell said that it was only within five minutes of coming into the House that he first was made acquainted either by his Honor, or by any member of the Executive Gpvernment of the proposed arrangements with respect to the Audit. He, would accept the appointment subject to the assent of the General Governmentj and acting on the orders which he had received from the General Government to offer 'every" assistance in his power to the Government of the Province. He thought it necessary to make this.^statement, particularly T with reference to what had recently.-taken place, that the House might understand his position 1 ! - The Prov. 'Secretary said he had omitted to explain,' that the appointment would not officially take place until the adjournment of the • House; Mr. Bell said as a matier personal to himself he should have stipulated that the appointment should not be made until the adjournment of the House, as the moment the appointment was made and accepted he should resign his seat.

NEW ZEALAND COMPANT S DKBT BILL. , The report of the Committee on this Bill was brought up and adopted.

CONTRACTORS' BILL. On the first clause being read Mr. Moore in assenting to this clause, trusted the Government would interpret it in a fair and liberal spirit ; he should be glad to hear from the Government that they intended to carry out the contract system in every department and .wherever practicable, and that they intended to adopt as a rule the publication of the terms of accepted contracts. The Prov. Secretary in reply expressed himself desirous that the Contract system should be pursued on all occasions where practicable, and that the usual rules hitherto observed should be maintained. Mr. Moore explained he had asked the question, because' he thought such a system would be the best guarantee to the public of fairness, and at once shew those whose tenders had been refused that they had been fairly dealt with. He could hardly say it had been the constant practice of the late Government to do this, but it had been acted upon during the latter part of its administration, and he thought it gave general satisfaction, Ma. .Wakefield, understanding the discussion to be at an end with regard to contractors, would advert to the disqualification of members of the Council. He thought that the bill ought, in accordance with the resolution which they had passed early in the session, to disqualify for accepting an office of " trust " as well as one of " emolument." That, he' thought, was the condition of forfeiture in British legislatures. But there was a special reason in this Province for including officers of trust. It was that, by the Executive Act, they had authorised the Superintendent to appoint two members of the Executive Council, not holding any office of emolument. The trust reposed in them would be most important — that of advising every act performed by the Superintendent. Yet it' was proposed that members of Council accepting this high and most responsible duty should not pass through the ordeal of a fresh election because they were not paid. That was at variance with responsible Government. He (Mr. W.) was conscious of the inconveniences which, in so small a legislature, might arise •from compelling members to vacate their seats on accepting an office, whether of emolument or trust, but on mature consideration of the subject, the advantages of that course had outweighed the-disadvantages in his mind. He felt sure that, in order to carry out responsible government, all members of the Executive Council, whether paid or not, ought to resign their seats in, that Council on accepting office ; and he would wait to hear if the lion. Secretary had any valid reason to urge against it. THe Prov. Shcretary said the alteration in the/resolution had been agreed to by him inadvertently, under the impression that the word trust referred to money. And he had afterwards been told he had made a mistake, that it was not the intention of the other members of, the' Executive Government to include in it" members accepting office under Government to which no emolument was attached. It was no inherent part of responsible Government to make members go to their constituents. Even at home the most .able members of the Cabinet found themselves sometimes excluded from the House through this principle by the obstinacy of their constituents, and the inconvenience was patched up by "an arrangement with some member to resign his seat, and to whom some compensation was offered.. Opinions were greatly divided on this subject at home, but to push it to the length now proposed would destroy its practicability. ' The circumstance had already attracted notice in the neighbouring colonies, where the. length to which the principle was carried in this Province was already derided. If they were to go this length, if a member were appointed to a Commission he would have to go back to his constituents, so that members would have constantly to be re-elected, -which would be carrying the principle to a silly length. Mr. Ludt,am thought it essential the principle should be applied to all members of the Executive Council, even to those who did not receive any salary. ■ Mr, Wakefield. said that, on looking at the statute of Anne relating to the forfeiture of *seats in the ' House of Commons he fejt bound to acknowledge if that was=the last statute on the subject, that he had been in error with regard to offtces of "trust." But;

that was of little consequence, since his argument rested, not on precedent, but on the particular fact in this Province, that two of the highest officers of Government would hold of-, ficts of trust only. He quite agreed, however, that in this small community it might often be ' difficult to find person? qualified foi public business without talcing them out of that Council, ' and that it would be very inconvenient if members of the Council had to forfeit their seats, on accepting such an office of trust as a temporary or unpaid commission of enquiry. In order to do what was necessary without doing too much, he would suggest that the office of Execucive Councillor should be declared by name a disqualifying office, without saying anything about " trust." That would be entirely satisfactory to him for the present. The Pkov. Secretary thought it was straining a right principle too far, but as affecting a great question of this sort he would not set up his opinion against that of the Council. In grafting on an elective head the repiesentative system, many persons thought they were aiming at an impracticability. He had his doubts, but would give in, and would consent that an alteration in the clause, so as affect all members of the Executive Council, should be made. Mr. Wakefield said the concession made by the- Secretary and his manner .of jnaking it was satisfactory, and deserved the thanks of the Council. The report of the Commitee was'then brought up and agreed to, i

LICENSING AMENDMENT BILL. The Council went into Committee on the Licensing Amendment Bill, the Report on which was brought up and adopted. On the motion of Mr. Brandon, the Savings Bank Act, the Commencement of Acts of Council Act, andjthe Appointment of Agent Act were severally read a third time and passed, after which the House adjourned.

Friday, February 3rd. The Speaker took the chair at 2 p.m. The minutes were read. We observed that Mr. Brown has recorded a notice of-'motiotfj for the commencement of next session, to bring in a real and efficient Audit Bill. A conversation took place as to the minutes of the withdrawal- of Mr. Renall's motion with regard to compensation ; that gentleman abd Mr. Wakefield desiring that there shouM be some record of the statement by the Government on the subject which had formed the ground of withdrawal. Eventually, this was dove, and a minute agreed to by the Provincial Secretary.

WASTE LANDS. Mr. Revans moved the adoption of a resolution, to the effect that the eutire control and management of the waste lands' should be handed over to the respective Provincial Governments. Capt. Daniell seconded the motion. Mr, Waicefikld said it would be improper to raise needless discussion on what was virtually the last day of the session. He agreed to the spirit of the greater part of the resolution, but dissented from some parts; and he desired only to record that dissent, which he could explain whenever the subject should -come on for discussion again. Mr. Ludlam entertained some doubt as to the advisability of the words " entire control ;" but would support the resolution generally. The resolution was then pot and carried unanimously. > -

COMMITTEE OF CORRESPONDENCE. The Prov. Secretary moved that this Committee should consist of the Speaker, Mr. Revans, aud the Provincial Secretary. Mr. Wakefield asked if this was the Committee to correspond with the Agent in England. The Prov. Secretary, yes. Mr. Wakefield suggested that the Govern- ! ment would do well to place one member, not being of iheir own party, on this Committee. It ought not to represent merely the party of the Government for the time being. The addition of one member's name from that side of the House would remove all doubts, which might otherwise arise, whether the correspondence would be conducted for a party only, or fcr the Province. Mr. Revans asked whether the Speaker could be said to be connected with a party? As for himself, he believed he (Mr. R.) was as independent as any member of that House. He had acted generally with the Government, in .perfect good faith, because he thought that their being in power was essential Jo the fostering of certa'n principles, but he trusted he had done so with tolerable independence. This government was, 1 really, the Constitutional Association in office. , As such, it maintained those great principles which were essential to the character of EnglishI men. What he abhorred in the past government I was, that it was a feeble despotism, hideous because it had lost the powers of a vigorous, free, government, suitable to the character of its peol pie. We should not have suffered so much from a powerful stringent despotism. He had been ternred a rebel, but he could justify;-, his own loyalty. All that bad happened under the old system of government had not offended him personally, but in his national feelings. Wherever be might go, he considered himself an ambassador of England, to promote her institutions and characteristics. On those grounds he bad pursued a certain course in these matters; and therefore he supported this Government, which, in however small a community and with however moderate a revenue, would, he felt sure, never flinch from stating and advocating those great principles. The day they failed to do so, he would cease to support them. He did not know that he was an exceptionable member c he had no object to serve ; but he was quite ready to retire in favour of any member whom the Council might prefer on this Committee, v. Mr. Wakepield explained that the hon. 1 member (Mr. Revans) had quite misapprehended him. He had no objection to that gentleman's name, but on the contrary, -should be glad to see . him on the Committee. He had had no thought ; of excluding him, but he had suggested that they should take on to the Committee one person not ; a partizan of the Government. The bon. genl tieman had declared his partizanship of Govern* : ment. No one blamed him for it : on the con- ; trary, they felt that he had been useful in that . position, just because be had an independent mind. ; But in this case, a representation, ot the Province

was required. This Committee was in the nature, of a Plenipotentiary, uot to be changed with every ministry. It was irresponsible, because merely z committee of the House, which the Council could neither reward nor punish. It would have to instruct the Agent on many matters not involving local party questions. Such a committee should be open to all parties. If the government would not adopt this suggestion, he would record bis opinion by moving the addition to the Committee of one gentleman x not a membct or, supporter of the government of tie day. , Mr. Wallace remarked ,thai,* thf Standing Rules said Committees should consist of not less 3, or more than 5, and that 3 should be a quorum, and that the names of the members -hoold be stated. Hitherto every Commiuee had consisted of 5. . . Mr. LuDLAM.said that the Council should be /airly represented in the Committee, by placing on it one of what are usually failed the " inde. pendent" members. It should' be, like other Select Committees, a fair expression oT the opinions of different members. The Pkov. Secretary reminded the house that the hon. member (Mr. Wakefield) had observed, on the second reading of the Agent Bill, that he did not approve of the way in which it was proposed to appoint the Agent, and to conduct the correspondence, but tfaad fet vtauld-pre-fer leaving it all to the Superinfemlent in order to ensure due responsibility. A middle'course had been adopted, by making two ex officio members of the committee, namely, the chief officer of the Council, and the chief officer of the Government in the Council. Who was the third person named ? One in whom they could repose all ju4 confidence, as embodying the views of the public at large. The Government rejoiced in the support of a man of so independent a mind. They had not selected bis name on account of his partizanship; but because some choice had' to be made, and they deemed that one highly judicious. Mr. Brown had rather the Government would take the whole- duty on themselves; so that it should not be treated as the correspondence of Xhe Provincial Council. He could echo-tbe high sentiments expressed by the hon. member (Mr. Rerans). But he allowed that he acted with the Government, of course with perfect independence, for which he deserved every credit. But if the Government wished to make this Committee a fair representation ol the Council, they must arrange it otherwise. The Speaker, be allowed, was of no party. The Prov. Secretary represents the Government. The Prov. Secretary — And the people. Mr. Brown. — Of course ; but he spoke of him in bis official capacity, as named on the Committee. He agreed to Mr. Revans's name as an independent supporter of the Government. But why not name more? There' was still wanting the name of one of those gentlemen who generally do uot feel it their duty to support the Government on all occasions. They ought not to blatoe one another for differences of opinion. He doubted not but that they all supported the same principles in the main; but there might be two seis of opinions, both conscientiously advocated, as to bow the principles were to be canied out. Another name should be added to the Committee. " Mr. Renall briefly moved, as a.n amendment, that Mr. Ludlam be addeJ to the Committee. Mr. Wakefield seconded this amendment ; and would take the opportunity to reply to some remarks of the Prov. Secretary. He (Mr. W.) would have preferred that the Agent should be an officer of the Executive Government, receiving his instructions from the Executive Council, who would be responsible for them to that House. This was the first time that only three members lud bfeen named on any Select Committee, and all three were supporters of the Government. Previously, members had been selected either indiscriminately, according to their capacity for the sujnejt, or else equally from both sides. The Counwi seemed to be hardly aware of the importance of this Committee. It would carry on the communications oi the Province with the Colonial Office and Parliament in England. He should have preferred the entire responsibility of the Executive Council in this matter. But the proposed appointment of tbree members all of one party, irresponsible and unpaid, exposed the Government to the suspicion of wishing to get into "its own bands, without responsibility, the correspondence of the Province with the Home authorities. This power was exceedingly formidable ; and the objection to it would be removed by placing some members of all parties on the Committee. He would second the motion to a3d Mr. Ludlam to it: for he was sure that no member of the Constitutional Association (iucluding himself, for in spirit as well as in substantial efforts at home, he had been a member of it) now more thoroughly embraces the new institutions. Even when he (Mr. L.) served the old Government, he did so with more independence than 'official members. The time Was gone by for abusing nominees because they had been such. When they Saw a man of that ability and industry, warmly embracing constitutional principles, they ought to rejoice in the accession to their strength. He (Mr. L.) would not, if placed on that Committee, take a less constitutional view of the matters to Be dealt with ,by'it than any other member of j it;_ _"' , " ' The Prov. Secretary would oppose the amendment, though not from any want of confidence in the gentleman named. He had carefully observed the part played by that hon. member (Mr. Ludlam) ; and though he had voted five times against the Government for once that be had voted with it, he had increased the respect which he (the Prov. Sec.) previously entertained for hinn He would make no reference whatever to his former tenets, but simply say that he could have as great confidence in him as in most other hon. members. Now as to the alleged Irresponsibility of the proposed Committee, it was not wholly, but only partially irresponsible t The Piov. Secretary was named, and not the particular member who held that office. As^Prov. Secretary, he would sanction the correspondence t if the Council objected to any part of it, it would visit the fault on that officer, and necessarily through him on the whole administration. Therefore, there was no irresponsibility in the Coramiitee. By naming the Prov, Secretary (not Mr. Fitzherbert, the member for Wellington) the resolution provided both responsibility and a fit successor. As to adding more names, there was a great difference between Select Committees silting from day to day during the session, and a standing Committee like this trammeling business

during the recess, for which three members would be a more practicable number, enabling them easily to communicate wi-h each other. As to the fairness of the Committee, these reasons operated with the Government in selecting the names. There was fits: the Speaker, the presiding officer of the House, than whom there was no one^ in whom they could have greater confidence ; then ministerial responsibility was provided by the presence of the Prov. Secretary : and as to the third name,. he believed it was the best they could haVe inserted. Although the Committee should beresponsible to the Council for what they wri leather c should he nothing unintelligible to the Agent, as there would be in a correspondence embodying many conflicting opinions. 'On the land question, for instance, the ideas of one member might appear in the letter, and the very opposite ideas of another in the postscript. He believed that, if he were to sit down in a spirit of entire impartiality to fill up the Committee, be should give those three very names again.' The Committee ought not to write' so as' not to be understood by the Agent. ' - Mr 1 . Wakefield had. never intended that there shonld be a separate paragraph for the opinion of each member of Committee*' The Prov. Secretary tfould give an instance from the report of the Immigration Committee, to which one. member had itttachexLJiis dfssfcat..,. Mr. WXkefield — "That h r foreign 'to £h» subject; the report was drawn up in my absence.' 1 The Prov. Secretary— lf 'each' member were to have his ideas represented; the Agent would not make out the' correspondence. As to the objection which might'be urged against giving the power to any comraitteee during the recess-, the Committee might be instructed' to let members all times examine their proceedings. Let the Agent- clearly know what we mean; but let the Council have the right to examine the correspondence. M. Brown thought the arguments of the hon. Secretary went to prove that ihe whole matter would be better left to him alonp. As it was, the three would settle everything one way. Why were they all there, except "to state and compare their different opinions ? Formerly" the priiiciple of the Government was that of unity and concentration in one man': now, it was that of a broad representation of all opinions. The bon. Secretary seemed to object, though he had not well explained why, to having five members on the Committee. As to the difficulty of mutual communication, Mr. Ludlam lived quite near, and Mr. Revans at a great distance. The question Was simply— ls tha Government or the Council to carry on the correspondence ? He would prefer the Government, consulting with the Speaker as the reservoir t>f the Council's opinions. But if they were to be responsible as a Council for the letters of the Committee,- it should fairly represent them. He approved of. the three named ; but could not see why two more should not be added. Mr. Revans saw difficulty in a large Committee during the recess. But he did not think the correspondence would be better left to one only. Discussion, even among friends, was always advantageous. For his part, he felt such confidence ia his own opinions that he always tried to upset himself by comparing them to those of others. He could act well on a Committee with Mr. Ludlam, or any other member. Pay, or money, was not the sole source 'of responsibility ; there were men who were actuated by a dislike of censure, and the desire to gain the approbation of their fellows. He objected to a large Committee, and thonght three enough, bat was ready to make room if neces* sary. Mr. Wallace liad no objection to adding Mr. Ludlam's name, or to a larger number of Coramutee-meu than three. Bnt he should vote against the amendment because he thought' ic was better to leave the whole power in the hands of the Government. Mr. Bell thought the observations of the Provincial Secretary established his case on the one ground that the Executive Government ought to conduct the correspondence ; for it was clear that ia the opinion of the province on many subjects, if expressed through their representatives, uniformity could not be expected to exist. So it had better be left wholly to the Government. On the second reading of the Agent Bill, he had expressed a doubt whether there ought to be a Committee of Correspondence' of the Council ; feeling, as he did, the difficulty of entrusting the task to a Committee not known to possess definite views or responsibility for them. If there were such a Committee, the Prov. Secretary and the Speaker ought to be members of it, and would lfave the confidence of the House. But the proposed Committee represents the opinions of the majority, and in no way those of the minority. He (Mr. Bell) had no fear as to the due performance of its duty, but there were members who might. The future transactions at that Committee could not ignore the past. The correspondence wHh the agent must affect some of the doings of the past Government, on which his hon. colleague (Mr. Revans) had used very severe personal expressions, such as " mis* chievous despotism." No other member had done bo, and it was preditable to other members . that personal questions as to the past Government had not been brought forward. Buttbat spirit would not, he feared, be retained when the correspondence should bear on questions affected by the past. It must be remembered that the agent himself, Mr. Godley, had been a strenuous opponent of the past Government 5 and though he (Mr. Bell) and others who thought with him, did not object to the appointment, because tbejt respected him for his generally statesmanlikecolonial views, they were not content to lesve the whole correspondence to four gentlemen who did not represent the attachment of himself and h,& friends to Sir George Grey's Government, If' the electors who returned those members repre-t. sent any considerable portion of the intelligence and property of the province, the views of those members are' entitled to he so fir represented in" the porrespcindeqce, Those member* ought to have some voice in it. On many questions con-, nected with the future government of the country,. 1 important differences existed, as shewn by the divisions in the House. On all these, the opinions of the majority were carried into effect, and those of the minority were gone to the wall,. But still, in the House, "they bad an opportunity to express those opinions, and to make them known to the public who returned them. If that W3S a good practice on ihe spot, where [l\e ques*

tionc were well ventilated by public opinion, how much more important T/as it to affect opinion 16,000 miles off. Government at home might easily be deceived, if it were not placed in possession of the opinions of the minority as well as those of the majority. Instead of uniformity of opinion, as desired by the hoo. Secretary, the different opinions ought to be fairly represented. It would be better for the Government to take the correspondence entirely into its own bands, providing that the Speaker should represent the ■opinions to be embodied. We should place in the hands of .the Government the conduct of our exterior, as well as that of our local affairs. Mr. Moore felt himself unequal to deal with the whole question. But as to the constitution of the Committee, he was struck with the faUacy of the hon. Secretary's arguments. He (Mr. M.) thought the correspondence should be entirely in the hands of the Executive. But if it were to be conducted by the Council, the corresponding committee should fairly represent all ihades of opinion. He would support the amendment, as it proposed to represent the independent feeling of the Council. If that were to be Tepresented only by the hon. member (Mr. Revtns), and if that gentleman's expressions today, were to form part of what was communicated through the agent to the Imperial Government, much as he respected the hon. member's integlity and ability, he must object to its being thought that he (Mr. R.) represented the independent feeling on the subject. Mr. Wakefield could adopt the proposal in principle. But the Council would have to ac■cept a declaration not placed on record, and the Committee would still be said to represent the opinions of the whole Council. The Prov. Secretary said he made the suggestion, in order to avert a division on a personal question, that of one bon. member's name. Mr. Wakefield asserted the question to be by no means a personal one, but one of high political principle. Mr. Ludlam would have preferred that some other member on bis side of the House shouW htve been named, as he felt he was not man-of-"business enough for the particular duty. It would have been better if the principle could bave been asserted first, and a member selected afterwards. All sides should be represented, as in other Select Committees. The House was not bound by the opinions of other Committees ; but the opinions of this one would be called by the ngent those of the Council, minority and roajority together. On a division, the amendment was negatived by 8 to 7. For it — Messrs. Brown, Ludlam, Hart, Renall, Wakefield, Bell, and Moore. Against — Messrs. Fitzherbert, Brandon, Wallace, Dorset, Betbune, Lyon, Daniell, and llevans. Mr. Bell now moved another amendment, to the effect that the Committee should consist of the members of the Executive in tbis Council. The Government would, in this way, be entrusted with the conduct of our external, as well as of our internal, affairs. This was a question on which, he trusted, habitual suppoTters of the Government might express an opinion that such a course was the right one. Having confided, entirely, the internal Government to them, he thought they might equally give them the entire management of our external relations. If they fail in framing instructions to the agent necessary for our future existence, the same consequences would occur to them as if they should fail in minor and local details. They might be -trusted in one as in the other, having displayed moderation, justice, prudence, and, he could add with pleasure, forbearance as to the past. Mr. Wakefield rose to second Mr. Bell's amendment, and said that under different circarafltances be should not have supported it, but be | accepted it as a pis aller — as being better than the proposal of the Government. From the 'first his wish had been to throw upon the Executive the whole responsibility of corresponding with the Agent > and that view was strongly confirmed by the present discussion. Committees j of that House were appointed solely to inquire and recommend, never to do any act for which the Council would be responsible. But now what was proposed ? That during the recess, until November, they should authorize a Select Committee to represent them in staling their -opinions and objects to the Agent, and through hjm to the Queen and Parliament. There were many constitutional questions yet unsettled, re- j iating both to the past and to the future ; and j amongst them was the conduct of the Governor, in auspending a main part of the Constitution. \ That was a subject on which there would be correspondence with the Agent. (He (Mr. W.) should bave preferred that such correspondence were carried on by a Responsible Executive ; but when the Government proposed to entrust it to a committee of that House, he saw that the House rather liked the idea of having this power in their own hands, and therefore he gave up his own opinion. But then he took for granted that the committee would be so constituted as to represent the whole Council. Instead of that it was proposed, and avowedly, that the committee, appearing to represent the whole Council, should really represent only a party in the Council, and that on all matters concerning the relations of the Province with the Imperial Government, the views of that party should be sent home as the views of the Council. That appeared to him most unfair. For, example, there were the policy and proceedings of the late Governor. No member of the Council objected to them more •trongly tbau he did : and he would readily join a committee avowedly named to state such objections to the Home Government ; but his opinions were not those of the Council ; and if he were tsked to be one of a Committee of three to represent those opinions as the opinions of the Council, he would refuse, because that would be & course most unfair towards those members „ of Council who held different opinions. It wns avowed by the Government and their friends, that tbe Government is the Constitutional Association in power, and that this Committee will represent the opinions of tbe Constitutional Association. Then let the opinions of the Committee be sent home as such, not as the opinions of the Council, nearly half of whose members dissented from those opinions. If the whole Council were fairly represented in the Committee, the Committee would not agree to any hostile or violent course towards Sir George Grey. It might not even consent to correspond with the Home Government in a spirit hostile to tbe late

Governor. But this Committee, being all confessedly hostile to him, would in fact be a Secret Committee doing what it pleased without the check of public discussion. With regards one subject only— that of their relations with the Home Government— they were going to exclude the public from all knowledge of their proceedings ("No, no," from the Prov. Secretary and Mr. Revans). He said " yes," and he would establish the point. There had been no discussion in that Hodse of many of the topics on which the Committee would correspond ; and there would be none. They were about to go into recess until November ; and in the meanwhile this Committee would secretly — that is, free from public discussion and observation — urge its own views and objects on the Home Government, as 1 these had been formed without discussion in the Council. It was therefore a Secret Committee. If the amendment were rejected, be (Mr. Wakefield) should propose a resolution, which, though it might also be rejected, would go home to the Agent, and would show him that the proposal of the Government is disigreeable to a large portion of tbe Council, being supported only by a majority of one. The amendment proposed an indirect mode of making the Executive alone responsible for the correspondence, by relieving the Council from responsibility for the proceedings of a Committee over which they would have no control. Therefore he should support it ; and if it were rejected, be would propose a resolution, which, whether carried or not, would shew by the , ! division what weight ought to be attached to the representations of a merely party Committee. ! The Prov. Secretary supposed, then, there must be an evening sitting, to which the public in the gallery were to be invited. Unfortunately the guests had no appetite to-day. The hon. member (Mr. Bell) seemed to fear a spirit inimical to the old government in this Secret Ccmmittee. Mr. Bell had not called it secret. The Prov. Secretary said there was nothing to lead to the conclusion that it would display such an inimical spirit. He himself had forborne — Mr. Bell did not fear the bon. Secretary, but he did fear the hon. member (Mr. Revans). The Prov. Secretary hoped he might be trnsted, like a good general, who always put his runaways in the centre. v They would place the hon. member (Mr. Revans) between him (tbe Pro. Secretary) and the Speaker, so that he could not run not. Mr.. Bell — But the hon. Secretary was not the general. The Prov. Secretary trusted his assurance would be quite satisfactory. He hoped it would be believed that, holding such an office, he would never indulge such a spirit. As this fear was shewn to be but "the baseless fabric of a vision," be hoped the hon. member would withdraw bis amendment. The members of Government would Le responsible for his (the Prov. Secretary's) conduct in the Committee ; for if the House should not approve of it, it would soon tell the Government so. Mr. Brown made some brief remarks in reply to the Proviucial Secretary's observations on the attendance of the public in the gallery. Mr. Revans said there were two principles at stake in the present opposition. His hon. colleague (Mr. Bell) represented the late Government and Sir George Grey, whom he (Mr. R.) could not help always likening to Sir Frizzle Pumpkin ; and the hon. member for the Hutt, (Mr. Wakefield) represented the high price (cries of " question.)" Another hon. member (Mr. Brown) was a member of the Constitutional Associa'ion steadily in opposition to constitutional government. They all talked, — what? (cries of •• to the question.") No, they didn't. Well, let the minority prote*t! The correspondence would be laid on tbe table ; and they could fight over it another session. He hoped be should always have opponents ; though he submitted that a certain hon. gentleman ought not to be among them. He (Mr. R.) had played a part to make him responsible for his opinions. He was, he trusted, ordinarily modest } but he would always support the grand principle of representation, the power of a majority. You may have discussion in a chamber, but you have also its voice, that of its majority. This Committee would be your Foreign Office. Mr. Wakefield — Then make it a member of the Executive Council. Mr. Revans — Could you never adopt a new principle'? -(" Oh, ob," and laughter.) Well, let the subject drop. Mr. Renall observed that by some hon. members the name of Sir George Grey was always mentioned and received with odium. In that feeling he could not concur. He did not i like the old form of Government, but be could not consent to heap odium on the man who administered it. Tbe Province had been much indebted to Sir George Grey (cheers, and cries of " no.) He also disagreed with the abuse of Mr. Wakefield as to high price of land, i He bad often heard that gentleman advocate a real cheapness of land (cries of divide ! divide !) The amendment was then put, and the division was precisely the same as on the former one, 8 to 7 against it. Much ironical applause and laughter, however," proceeded from the supporters of tbe amendment when Mr. Wallace divided against it, along with the Government. The original question being then put, Mr. Wakefield asked tbe Speaker, as their time was extremely short, what opportunity he should have of moving a further resolution ? Mr. Revans — It was fully understood that the Council would not sit beyond that day. Country members had made arrangements for going home. Mr. Wakefield — Yes.it was fully understood that they should adjourn that day, but only provided they could get through the business before them. Could not his hon. friend " pair " with another country member who wanted to go home? The £rov. Secretary said that an honorable understanding had been completely entered into that there should be no discussions, and ncne but pro formd business after that day. The hon. member (Mr. Wakefield) now wanted to violate that honorable engagement. It was most improper and unjustifiable. On the raith of that engagement, a country member had already gone home. Mr. Wakefield said that on the very last day of the session a matter of great importance was brought before them by the Government. It was allowed by the Government to be^of great

importance. Now, he (Mr. W.) had never made any engagement, or come to any understanding, that under all circumstances he would abstain from discussion, or from raising questions in the House. On the contrary, when the hon. Secretary proposed the understanding, he had expressly stipulated (and he appealed to the whole Council to correct him if he was wrong) that all business of importance should be got through before the adjournment. He bad" addressed the House on purpose to make that a condiiion of the under- : standing. If any body was to blame, it was the Government, for not having brought their measure on sooner. All he desired, was the opportunity of recording certain opinions which had grown out of the rejection of two amendments to the Government measure. By insisting on that opportunity, he violated no engagement ; he only insisted on the condition for which he had expressly stipulated. If the opportunity were now denied to him, he should have to resort to a privilege which would give it to him presently. The Prov. Secretary — By the course members were pursuiug they would suffer in the estimation of their constituents. Let them exercise their privileges by all means, but not so as to violate an honorable understanding. Mr. Brown — There was an understanding, but provided always that the business should be done. Nobody could foresee that the preseut discussion would arise ; but it bad arisen because the Government proposed what many members objected to. Let them take the correspondence with the Agent into their own hands, and the discussion would end. If they would not, members who differed from them must have the oppoitunity of recording their opinions. Mr. Wakefield moved that the House do now adjourn. That was the only means left to him. The Speaker said that a member could not address tbe House unless on moving an adjournment for more than one day. Mr. Wakefield — Then he would move that the House do adjourn till Monday. There was a rule in their Standing Orders, which enabled members to move an adjournment every quarter of an hour. That rule had not been put there for nothing. It was a privilege given by tbe Standing Orders, for tbe purpose of enabling a minority to resist oppression by the majority. The deliberate object of the rule was to enable an aggrieved minority to put the majority to inconvenfence, and to compel them^ to do justice by giving the minority an opportunity to express and record their opinions. Repeated motions of adjournment were usual in the House of Commons, when the Government, backed by a majority, tried to carry a point by their votes, and they were always successful, because no Government could afford to appear bent on stifling discussion. He (Mr. W.) was acting strictly according to precedent in the House of Commons ; and he would pursue that course to the end. If his motion were negatived, he would take the first opportunity of repeating it, and would repeat it over and ! over again till tbe Government, being exhibited as intending to stifle discussion, would have to give j way. It should be seen at all events, and would be made known to the public, to the Agent and to the Imperial Government, that his Honor's j government was 'determined to prevent the minority from recording the truth as to the com- ; position of the Committee of correspondence. Mr. Revans thought that the hon. member must be actuated by ill will towards Mr. Godley. Mr. Wakefield rose to beg that his hon. friend would withdraw that imputation of a bad motive ; for be was absolutely and entitely mis- j taken in his supposition. Pie (Mr. W.) would repeat, that he thought it would be out of tbe power of the Council to select a more suitable Agent than Mr. Godlsy, or indeed one so capable of serving the Province at Home. He imagined that bis hon. friend bad been told by somebody here of some difference of opinion between him (Mr. W.) and Mr. Godley, and that they wer-s M variance. That was a complete mistake of persons who thought themselves well informed, but who were totally unacquainted with the truth. The truth was that, though Mr. Godley and he had held different opinions on some questions not relating to this Province or New Zealand in general, there was the most perfect agreement of opinion between them, and also an intimate and most friendly correspondence, on subjects which concerned the Council. Would bis hon. friend accept that statement? Mr. Revans had no information on the subject. The idea had occurred to him at the moment. | Mr. Wakefield — But what connection was there between ill will toward Mr. Godley, and a proposal to inform him of the true character of this Committee ? Mr. Revans — He fully accepted the explanation, and asked why he, who bad said that nobody had spoken to him about Mr. Wakefield and Mr. Godley, should be supposed to allude to a difference between them. Mr. Wakefield recalled the supposition, into which he had been led by a circumstance which he would mention. A gentleman high in authority had spoken to him as if lie thought that he (Mr. Wakefield) might have objections to Mr. Godley as Agent for the Province. He had replied that setting aside the claims of Mr. Fox, if the latter gentleman should remain in England, he knew of nobody so eligible as Mr. Godley. As his hon. friend was an intimate friend of the gentleman who had imagined that he (Mr. W.)might object to Mr. Godley, it seemed probable that such utterly erroneous supposition might have been communicated to him. Of course he now felt that it was not so. The Prov. Secretary — The hon. member (Mr. W.) was taking a most improper course. It was a breach of an honorable understanding, on the faith of which members had gone away. The hon. member had said that the Council invited the public to be present at their discussions, and as the guests had no appetite, he supposed that this was meant as a whet for their appetite. He would not agree to an adjournment, but would sit it out till they had finished the business, during which the hon. member's motions for adjournment would be a pleasing and jovial entertainment. Mr. Revans again assured his hon. friend that nobody had spoken to him about Mr. Godley. The idea came into his head, he knew not why. He dow believed that his notion on the subject was entirely baseless. Mr. Ludlam would support the motion for adjournment : it was not because the Government had a number of members at their back

who always voted with them, thtt the minority should not record their opinions, which arose out of a discussion before the House. Mr. Bell said the minority had had ample opportunity of recording their opinions in the amendments already discussed and rejected. The subject was disposed of. He should Tote for going on with the business of the Housr. . . Mr. Mooue supported the adjournment. It was necessary that the minority should have an opportunity to record their protest. That necessity arose out of the preceding business of the day. Would the Government, if they had not concluded their business, have insisted on the honorable understanding. He was prepared to sit on for a week if necessary ; but if sitting on would defeat the object of the bon. member (Mr. Wakefield) in placing the opinion of the minority on record, he must vote for the adjournment. Mr. Brandon didn't know what hon. members wanted. Their proceedings seemed to I partake of a vexatious and obstructive spirit. Mr. Bell inquired whether it was meant to . say the hon. member (Mr. Wakefield) could not bring on his proposed resolution to-night? ' The Prov. Secretary — Not without notice, in strict accordance with the Standing Orders. It was intended to obstruct business. (No, from Mr. Brown). He attached no importance to the hon. member's " no." He (the Prov. Secretary) would, however, test the sincerity of the opposi- , lion. He proposed that after the other business for to-day had been disposed of, they should discuss the hon. member's (Mr. Wakefield's) proposition as long as they liked. The Government were accused of making, an unfair use of the majority at their back. If the business were allowed to go on, an ample opportunity for discnsion would be allowed by the Government afterwards. Mr. Wakefield would cheerfully accept the proposal ; provided, of course, that the other business could be concluded within lome reasonable limits as to time. The Prov. Secretary explained that the business was all formal, and would raise no discussion of consequence. He proposed to adjourn for an hour for refreshment, and, on Teasserobling. to proceed as rapidly as possible with the formal business, after which Mr. Wakefield could move his intended resolution. Mr. Wakefield then withdrew his motion for adjournment till Monday, and the house adjourned for an hour, at 6 p.m.