Wednesday. December 7.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 872, 10 December 1853, Page 3

Wednesday. December 7.

NOTICE OF MOTION. % Mri TiYon enve notice of his intention to to bring in a Btll for the management of the Public Cemetery.

ATPROPRIATION O* 1 REVENUE. Mr. Brown rose to move the consideration ! of the important question of which he had given notice, wTjether this Council was legally qualified to deal .with the General Revenues of fhe Province. It had "been pat off from time to time to suit the convenience of the House, but in his opinion it ought to "have been the first question considered. He,complained of fhe rejections that had T>een made upon him by a portion of the Press (the Independent) and the obloquy it had attempted to subject him to. He begged to know of the Provincial Secretary if any further despatches had reached the Superintendent referring to this subject. The Proy. Secretary in reply said no other despatdh had been received by the Superintendent relative to Finances, than the one he would now lay on the table for the information of tbe Council. The despatch was read by the Clerk of Council. Mr. Brown then referred to the action of the Provincial Councils, to which he said a certain degree of utility was attached, but they were tremendously crippled and out of joint, and it was only from their inherent goodness they were able to move at all. if c then alluded to the exception of certain specffied subjects on which they Were prohibited frotn legislating, and which he said constituted the grand distinction between the General aird Provincial Councils ; that the power over the General revenue 'was "reserved to the General Assembly, and consequently as yet the Provincial Council had no power over it, but must receive from the General Assembly all the paraphernalia for dealin-r with it. The Provincial Councils being prohibited from legislating on certain specified subjects, were equally prohibited from legislating or dealing with -the revenue arising from ' those subjects. He contended that the legislation of the Provincial Council -entirely depended on the General Assembly by the clauses, of the Constitution Act, by which ail the paraphernalia oC legislation was pat under the General Council. Those who framed the Act regarded the Provincial Councils merely as Municipalities with enlarged powers. But he was of opinion it was absolutely necessary the powers of the Provincial Council should be enlarged, especially wrth regard to the lanfl of the province which he contended should be placed under their control, and concluded by -stating his belief that he had made ont a prima facie case in support ef his resolution, which he read. Mr. Wa*kefiei/d -seconded the resolution. The Prov. Secretary asked what motion was before the house. The hon. member had given notice of ooe motion, and had brought forward another. Mr. Wakkfiexd lising on the question of order, asked whether it was contended that a member, if he preserved the substance of 'a motion according to the notice given by him , was not at libei'ty to vary mere words without making any material difference. Mr. Brown explained he had brought forward the same motion he had read to the House on a former occasion, but the consideration of which had then been deferred. [The resolution was published in Spectator of November 9.] The Prov. Secretary objected that a different motion had been entered on the Journal of the House for discussion to that moved by the hon. member. Mr. Wakefield asked whether the hon. member meant to say that a motion must needs contain the precise words of the notice. In the House of Commons, nothing was more common than for a motion to be larger, more comprehensive, than the notice. Of course the substance of the notice could not be altered, but the phraseology might. It would be very inconvenient if members were pinned down, .when making a motion, to the precise words of their previous notice. ' The Speaker said the minutes of Council were read at each meeting, and if not disputed l were confirmed ; only those motions entered on the journals of the House could be taken no. tice of. Mr. Wakepield said that if the difference was material, it would be wrpng. It was for the Speaker to decide whether the change was material, or only verbal and unimportant. He could state from bis own , recollection/ that the motion made agreed with the notice which had been read to the House far more ,closely ,than the notice now read from, the Council Book. The motion now made had been made before, almost verbatim he believed, and withdrawn. After some further discussion^ Mr. Brown

upreed to pat the motion as entered on the minute 3. That th : s Couacil c?o propped fo ennvder the question, wh< flier under present eirrunntaiices they are legally qualified to de<il \v,th ihe public revpnup* of tlip Cnlnuv. Mr. Wakefiei/D declined secon ling 1 the motion as it was si totally different question, Mr. Wallace under the circumstances rose, to second Mr. Brown's motion, which he dfcf merely for form's sake to allow the debate to* go on. Mr. Brandon rose to niovs the following^ amendment : — . That thiß Council i» legally authorized to deaf with or appropriate the Revenua of this Province. 111 1 speaking to the amendment he would refer to the position taken by the hon. member, who contended the Council had no power to meddle with any dues or revenues raised on er-' cepted subjects. But if they were not empowered to meddle with those subjects^ he (Mr. B.) contended, neither had they any power to meddle judicially with the acts of the Governor, which was the position in which the hon. member's motion would place that^ Council. The Revenue of the Province .consisted of the monies arising from licenses, fees, and other loc il sour es, and of that ' portion of the generil Revenue handed over by the Governor. He presumed the hon, member would not deny the right of the Governor legally to deal with the Civil List reserved by the Constitution Act. The question, therefore, arose whether that apportionment of the Revenues which had been handed over to the Provincial Treasurer by the Governor was a legal act or not. In proceeding to consider that question* it would bs suffio'eut for him to attempt to make out a primd jutie jcase of legality on the part of the Governor, .as it was not the province of that Council to demand on what authority his Excellency acted, In doing so, he would allude to ene point, as to the powers of the Council, and the intentions of the original fraraer of the Act. It had been said that the powers of the Provincial Council were little better than those of municipalities, but the original framer of the Act, so far from confining their powers, lud said their laws were not meant to be merely bye laws. In establishing a primd facie case he must go back to the Charter and Act of 1846, by which power was given to the Governor to appropriate a Civil list, with directions how the surplus was to be appropriated. The charter also provided that aM acts of the Legislative Councils should continue valid until repealed by competent authority. In reply io the question whether the Constitution Act interfered with the Governor's power, he contended that until the General Assembly had roiled a revenue that power, so far as it does no. interfere with the Act, must beheld to continue. The original framer of the Act had contemplated the calling together of the Provincial Counci's before the General Assembly. Mr. Wakefield wished to know who the hon. member meant by the original framer of the Act. Mr. Brandon, Earl Grey. By Xord Grey's draft the General Assembly was to be composed df members selected from the Provincial Councils ; it was necessary therefore by that draft that -the Provincial Councils should be called together first in order to constitute the General Assembly. In that draft the appropriation of the .revenue was much the same as in the present Act. The whole scheme was precisely the same, and be contended the spirit was the same with that of the original fra»cer. There was nothing in the Act to compel the Governor to call the General Assembly together before the Provincial Councils. That power was safely left with the Governor to bo exercised when he saw fit to 'bring the whole Act into operation. He thought a sufficient primd facie case was made out of authority in the Governor to appropriate the revenue as he might think fit, and this Council was not constituted either by authority <»" implication to sit on the acts of the Governor. The amendment was seconded by Mr. Lyon. Mr.. Wajofield, though he had intended to second the resolution first proposed by the hon. member for thecoantiy district (Mr. Brown) yet could net second the motion which he had now adopted, because it contained no such protest, as the other did, against the illegality of appropriating the general revenue by the Governor's sole authority,<and against the impolicy of suspending the General Government of the colony. But he would not allow the'inference to be' drawn, that he wished to prevent the Provincial Government from accepting the money which the Governor offered to it. Though he deemed such acceptance wrong, he also considered it absolutely necessary : it was, in his opinion, an illegal and wrongful measure forced upon the Province by the policy of the Governor. He thought, therefore, tbat in becoming a party to it, the Provincial Government ought to express its dissent from the policy as such, or ought, at any rate, to avow rather than sup-t press the true state of the case. Was it according to law that the Governor should, by his own mere warrant, hand over General revenue to Provincial management ? For example, could the Collector of Customs obey the Governor's warrant without incurring a heavy personal risk ? It was not by blinking these questions, and by professing to believe that all is right when it is not Tight, that the Provincial Government would most easily accomplish its object with regard to a loan. The best course would be to acknowledge the real difficulties of the case, and to dfeal with them such as they are ; not to conceal them, or rather to attempt a conceal* ment of them which was impossible. As to the motion before the House, as it merely expressed that the Provincial Government was legally competent to deal with Provincial revenue, 'he should vote for it as a mere truism brought before the Council when he happened to be present. Mr. Moore thought the Provincial Solicitor had said in his remarks introducing the amendment, that he defined the revenue of the Province as consisting of not only < the revenue raised under provincial enactment, but also of such portion of the general revenue as might 'have been handed over to it. It appeared to him that the amendment did not state that; and if it' was his intention that it should do' so. perhaps it might be Jbetter to alter the wording of the amendment, so that there might be no mis? conception as to its true meaning. > ,> -/ Mr. Ludlam was of opinion the amen'dinept hardly went far enough. The^roendn>e"nr;v^BS, only to the effect Jhat the, Council hatTpovcgF

-over the revenues of the Province, bat did not touch the Customs or General revenue. Whaf ; they had met that day to decide was, whether, that Council was legally qualified to deal with the General revenue. The amendment did not 'touch the original resolution at all. Mr. Brandon then altered his amendment as follows-: — Tli»t this Council is legally authorized to deal with or appropriate the Rerenne of this Province, consisting of tttdh at may be raised by local taxation, and apportioned to itfnm the General Revenue. Mr. Wakbkield fcaid that the proposition as altered was still a mere truism. Indeed, 'there was no alteration ; only an addition, *whereby'the Council was aslced to declare it'•self competent to deal with Provincial revenue 'from whatever source derived. But that left wholly untouched the <question>of whether or not apartof the Geneial Revenue was legally^ made Provincial by the Governor's warrant alone. It seemed to be an object to keep that question out of sight, as if it were possible for' this Council and the Superintendent to delude themselves, or -others, unto a belief that no such question existed. He should still vote 'for the amendment as for « mere truism. The Prov. SECRErAitT -said whether the financial arrangement made by his Excellency on of the General Government was a legal arrangement, whether it was to'be defended on v the ground of legality, or on the necessity of " the case, were questions on which he Should re- ■ serve the expression of his opinion for such an" as must ere long present itself. Havingf objected to the alteration of the original resolntion, he could no^with any degree of consistency support any material alteration in the amendment, but he thought the alteration made showed the amendment 'to that portion of the revenue-handed over by the General Go•vernment. Mr. Ludlam thought it very desirable this • question should be set at rest. The Constitution Act defines bow the revenues were to be • clealt with by the General Assembly. The Provincial Councils had come into operation first, and under former Ordinances certain appropriations were made, leaving a large surplus. Un•der the 18th clause of the Act he thought the Councils were perfectly competent to - appropriate the revenue. If the General As- - sembly were to meet to-morrow they would pass - an Appropriation Ordinance, but this -was to be -regarded as a'temporary settlement of the question, until defined and settled by the 'General Assembly. 'His only doubt was whether more had not *heen reserved than was allowed, but this could not be ascertained until ■lheybad-a return from the Colonial Treasurer. If he (Mr. L.) thought he was acting illegally be would never vote a shilling of the public •money. He would never consent to vote away • money under protest. To vote away the public *-money, and to know they were doing so illegally, •-would be to place themselves in a very bad - position. '*If they were to assume the position that they were acting -illegally, in voting the public money, the public would ilaugh at them. iHe was of 'opinion that until the General . Assembly passed'-laws regulating the appropriation of the public revenue, 'that Council was fully qualified to appropriate the revenues of this Province. After a few words from Mr. Brown the -amendment was put and carried unanimously.

'MR. QRIMSTONeV CLAIM. "Mr. Moorb' moved the appointment of a consistingof'Messrs. Ludlam/Brown, Wakefield, and the mover to consider and report on Mr. Grimstone'* petition. Mr. Revans objected- to the claim which he * thoaght should be referred to the' General As- - semfily.

APPOINTMENT OF CROWN 'PROSECUTOR. ~M r. "Waketibld -would not set the bad exsample of making a speech *when putting a *But he must just explain himself sufficiently to enable the Provincial Solicitor to -understand the*question- The last -Provincial 'Gazette announced that his 'Honor had appointed IMr. Brandon to be Crown Prosecutor *in the Supreme Court. IThe CouncilTarould recollect that the Executive -Bill,*as laid be--fore them, authorised the Superintendent to -appointa Crown sProsecntor; but the'Councilhad unanknpusly rejected that clause, as being at variance with the Constitution Act, which expressly forbad the ProvinciarGovernments to with the Supreme Court. Precisely that which the Council would not authorise the -Superintendent to do, he had now done by proclamation in the 'Gazette. He (Mr. W.<) begged 'to be informed by what authority this appoint4nent&ad been made. Mr. Bpandon, in reply, read pait of a despatch from the Oivil Secretary to the Superintendent of the 27th August last, and said that the appointment had been made 'by authority of 4he Governor. Mr. Wakefield subsequently gave notice on the 14th instant he would call the attention of the Council to this subject. SERGEANT AT ARMS. Mr. Revans moved the appointment of Mr. Marriott as Sergeant at Arms. Mr. Brown was not aware of the necessity of such an appointment, if members misconducted themselves they should be committed to the custody of the Police. £Mr. Wakefield explained that the Houses ©f Assembly m Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick had all Sergeants at arms, and that | each an appointment by Legislative Councils was considered to be necessary. Mr. Hart proposed as more appropriate he should be styled Sergeant of Council, but subsequently withdrew his amendment. Mr. Brown ridiculed the idea of such an appointment. The resolution was carried, and the Council Adjourned.