Tuesday, August 21.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VI, Issue 441, 24 October 1849, Page 4

Tuesday, August 21.

Present: —The Governor and eight members : absent, His Excellency General Pitt and Major Matson. The Colonial Chaplain was in attendance and read prayers. Minutes of last meeting read and confirmed.

Appropriation Bill. On the motion of the Colonial Treasurer, Council resumed in Committee on this bill. The Governor laid on the table the returns relative to roads, moved by Messrs. Merriman and Barstow. On the sum of £1706 6s being proposed for the road department. Mr. Barstow in a long speech attacked the system of management under which the works of this department were carried on as a system of wasteful extravagance, and said that >he could not be expected to sit silent when he ■had seen eveiy tomfoolery that wit could devise, every absurdity that ingenuity could render practical perpetrated under the pretext of 'road-making. Large cuttings had been made and embaukments constructed where a detour of & few yards would have given an evenly inclined road ; and roads are made so narrow •where the traffic is considerable that two teams cannot pass without difficulty ; but where little used they were wide enough for three. He would therefore propose as an amendment on the estimate for the road department that the salaries of overseers should be raised from four to five shillings a day, and that the daily pay to the natives should be one shilling and rations for six days in the week. Mr, Merriman supported the amendment and referred to a few details in order to show more fully the preposterous manner in which this department was conducted. He then referred to sums expended on horses. One horse had cost ;£75 and was afterwards sold as unsound at a great reduction ; another was sold for fifty- two shillings, and having been afterwards judiciously treated by the person vrho bought it of the Government, was resold the other day for £25. He then directed the attention of the Council to the cost of making Princes-Street. The work performed in that street was about eight chains and a half, the cost of wnich was £622, being at the rate of £6000 a mile. But that amount did not take in the wooden curb, the laying of which alone cost £85 18s. lOd. exclusive of the cost of the timber or the carting of it. He did not wish to see the sum set apart for this department curtailed ; what he desired was, that whatever amount was to be expended should

be judiciously and wisely laid out, and the greatest possible amount of efficient service obtained for it. The Colonial Secretary considered if honorable members were more fully aware of the difficulties of the department they would be less disposed to find t fault. The greatest difficulty was experienced in getting labourers, and it must be remembered that the species of work to be performed was altogether new to the native labourers who had been engaged upon it. As far as he had observed, there had always been a great anxiety on the part of those entrusted with the management of this department to perform the work in the most advantageous manner. Mr. Kempthorne felt compelled to say that on his return, after an absence from the colony of nearly two years, he was very much struck with the great improvement of the roads. TheCouncil.in viewing the undertaking, could hardly in fairness confine themselves to a glance at what had been done by way of beginning, but should rather look forward to a longer time; for an average result. He was sorry to hear such strong expressions used by honorable members, but still he would be happy to see their suggestions carried out. The Surveyor General understood the question before the Council to be, whether a certain sum placed upon the estimates should be | voted. He believed that no argument had been urged against the item being granted, and inI stead of the vague charges that had been made against officers, it would have been better if ' honourable members, had pointed out some specific cause of dereliction of duty. Notwithstanding the difficulty of road making in this country, owing to many circumstances, such as the nature of the sub-soil, peculiar toughness of the metal rendering it hard to j break, the character of the labour only to be | procured, and other features, yet there had j been ten and a hall miles of road from Auckland completed, and two and a half miles were in progress. A great deal of the expense referred to had been incurred in setting the work on foot, such as in the purchase of horses, drays, tools, &c, that would not be required to be laid out again. With respect to the detached manner in which some of the work had been performed, he might say that it was necessary to carry it on so, owing to the si* tuation of the volcanic hills from which the material must be procured. But then, as the work proceeds, this patchwork will be filled up and united, and the roads will appear to better advantage. When members looked back | over two years, and remembered the state of the country roads at that time, and compared ( them with the present, even in their imperfection, and take into consideration also the cost j of road making here, which, at the very least, is twice as much as at home, they ought to be i convinced that there was less occasion to mar- : mur than they seemed to imagine. The Colonial Secretary would suggest that labouring men should be employed in future as overseers — men who would work along with the natives themselves. This was the only improvement that suggested itself to him. He had consulted men of candour, competent to give an opinion on the subject, and they had agreed that the work could not have been performed for less under all the circumstances. \ The Governor rose and said that perhaps the Council might think, as he did himself, that it was due to him to make some remarks upon the subject. 1 And first he would say that; he felt no anxiety to stop the discussion of this question ; what he had said on a former day was not with that intent, but he had j stated specifically that if the hon. gentlemen wished to show a spirit of generosity, they would not attempt to ruin an enterprise of great importance by entering into details of insignificant importance. And he still thought that it was beneath the dignity of that Council for its members to attack the minor workings of a great scheme, inconsiderate of the damage they might do to its utility ; neither was it quite in keeping with the dignity of members to make their attacks in such a way as theyknewwould notbe agreeable tothefeelings of one who had taken so deep an interest in a scheme of such great importance to the welfare of this colony. He found himself placed in a position of delicacy by the manner in which this subject had been treated, for it would be remembered that the funds which had been discussed were such as had been placed at his disposal by Parliament, and he alone was responsible for them. It could not but be remarked that the Council, in voting away their own revenue, had departed from his estimate in their desire for greater liberality than what he had shown ; but in approaching the items to be supplied from British funds the greatest anxiety was shewn to guard them. Now, what could be gathered from this but that while he was exercising a watchful care over the local revenue, he was spending what had been committed to his sole care in the most lavish way imaginable. He might have saved honorable members the necessity

of using so many violent expressions, and himself the unpleasantness of listening to them, if he had only taken the suggestion of his honorable friend the Colonial Treasurer, who, he supposed, from longer official experience than his own, had certainly advised a method whereby he would have got over this very disagreeable dilemma. His honorable friend had recommended that the miscellaneous expenditure should be reduced so that larger salaries might be paid to officers. (Laughter). Now if he (the Governor) had cut off the item for roads and turned it over to the increase of salaries, he might have shared in the triumph and applause that would have no doubt been given to his honorable friend who had proposed it. But whatever effect might be produced here, or whatever impression would be made elsewhere by the course that had been taken by members, there was this satisfaction left to him, that he attached very little weight to the opinions that bad been expressed in depreciation of the road department. If he wanted an opinion on a point of law, and applied to a kwyer, but afterwards found that he had given an erroneous opinion, there would be cause for astonishment ; but if he wished for an opinion on the construction of roads, and on going to a lawyer got a wrong opinion on the subject, he should not be at all surprised at the result. Now he (the Governor) had got the very best education in this branch of knowledge, (whatever use he had made of it was another thing), and from his own knowledge of the subject, he could state his opinion to be that the work had been originated and carried out so far upon the best principles ; and the opinions of engineers of the greatest ability went to the same effect. As to the statement made by the labourer referred to, it was on this ques- ! tion of very little weight. If it was a ques- \ ! tion of ploughing, or other such work, he would not wish to look for a better opinion than one from a labouring man, but he held that such a class of men were not competent to come to right conclusions upon the principles of constructing roads. As regards the case quoted about the horse, he thought that honorable members should not advert to such trifles, and make assertions upon mere rumours. I Mr. Merriman. — Your Excellency, I have asserted nothing but what I know to be a fact. The Governor : At any rate he looked upon the matter as one of too trifling importance to be brought forward in the discussion of the question before the Council. It the horse 1 was sold, he was sold as unserviceable in accordance with the rules of the public service, and if he was bought by a farrier, who, by bestowing care on him since and recruiting his strength, had realised a larger sum than he had paid for him, it was surely not the province of that Council to take notice of it. As to several expressions made use of by members in their remarks, such as " tomfoolery," he thought that they were not calculated to benefit the public service. Such language j did not become the dignity of the Council ; but although he felt hurt to hear such expressions used, yet he was glad in one sense, for the language adopted would be a complete refutation of the whole of the charges preferred. He had often publicly stated the great objects he had in view in undertaking the enterprise which was now attempted to be thwarted. He found the natives in a state of rebellion, but after some time peace was restored, and he endeavoured to turn their attention to industrial pursuits, and to the use of agricultural implements. The constructing of roads would be at once a benefit to the settlers, and afforded an opportunity of usefully employing the natives. The proposal was approved of at home, and funds readily supplied to carry it out. He could foresee that the land fund, for the purposes of road making, was completely locked up — for the marketable lands in and about Auckland had been granted away. Roads were necessary to make these lands available to the holders, and the undertaking was commenced, and native labour brought to the very doors of the settlers. The natives themselves are brought from a distance into contact with the labour market, and, by degrees, their services will gradually become of much avail to the agricultural population. Notwithstanding that this scheme had been matter of deep thought to him, how to make it best serve the interests of both races, yet a great deal of odium had been heaped upon him at one time or another by reason of it. It had occurred to him whether it was not due to himself, in order to save him from these persecutions, and also to the people of Great Britain who had so liberally granted the money, to abandon the undertaking. It was in his power to abandon it ; but, conscious of his .own integrity in the matter, he had again thought that those persecutions were his only merit — and he felt determined not to be deterred by any harsh expressions that might be .levelled at him from endeavouring, as far as in him lay, to furnish this Province with roads that would be requi- . site for it. He would object to the reduction of the native pay proposed.

After a few observations in reply from Messrs Barstow and Merriman, the motion with respect to the natives' pay was withdrawn, and the advance to overseers agreed to. With this addition, the item stood as printed. The sum of £1753 ss, was agreed to for schools. The Governor proposed the sum of £2,600, with interest, as compensation claimed for losses sustained by Mr J. S. Folack at Kororareka, during the sacking of that town by rebel natives in 1845. This claim had been recommended for the consideration of the Council by LordfGrey, owing to Mr Polack's statement, in a letter to the Colonial Office, that his premises had been destroyed while occnpied by the Queen's troops. After a lengthened conversation, it was proposed by Mr Merriman, and seconded by the Governor, that the consideration of the claim should be entered into on the next day, when if Mr Polack desired it,. he would be heard at the bar of the Council in support of his claim. The 2nd and 3rd clauses of the Appropriation Bill were then agreed to, and the Comj mittee adjourned.

; Exiles. Mr. Merriman then moved the following resolutions, which were seconded by the Colonial Secretary, and supported by the Attor-ney-General, and adopted by the Council — His Excellency promising to take the earliest opportunity of forwarding them to the Secretary of State. The Legislative Council of New Zealand, in Committee, having taken into consideration the proposal of Her Majesty's Secretary of State respecting the introduction into the Colony of" Convicts holding Tickets of Leave" under certain conditions and regulations, as explained in Lord Grey's Despatch of the sth August, 1848, are of opinion — 1. That the system of sending out " Convicts with. Tickets of Leave" cannot be extended to New Zealand in justice to Her .Majesty's subjects who have settled in the Colony, on the faith of the pledge given by Her Majesty's Secretary of State that it was to be " a fundamental principle of the neu? Colony, that no convict is ever to be sent thither to undergo his punishment.'* 2. That the inducements and facilities for escaping into the bush, afforded by the peculiar circumstances of New Zealand, would materially interfere with, if not altogether prevent, the operation of that part of the system which contemplates securing to the Colony a supply of free labour by means of funds to be recovered from the convicts themselves after their arrival in the colony, and equal in amount to the cost of their own passage out. 3. That convicts cannot be introduced into New Zealand without impairing the security of person and property which at present exists in the colony ; and without prejudice to the moral condition of both races of its inhabitants. 4. That regard being had to the peculiar circumstances of this country, the Council concur in the opinion expressed by Her Majesty's Secretary of State during whose administration measures were taken for erecting it into a British colony, that, however much immediate advantage may be derived from convict labour, the benefit would be purchased at so heavy a priced that if the welfare of the colony alone were in question, the introduction of convicts into New Zealand, must be regarded as a short sighted policy. But looking, also, to the probable effects of such a measure on its Native inhabitants, this Council, entrusted with the responsible duty of making such laws as may be necessary for the peace, order, and good government of the colony, feel themselves bound to declare their opinion that such a measure cannot be applied with advantage to the colony of New Zealand. 5. That his Excellency the Goyemor-in-chief be requested to communicate the foregoing Resolutions to hec Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies. Mr. Merriman moved that the Council do go into committee for the purpose of addressing the Governor to introduce some measure that would finally settle the claims to land arising out of the ten shilling and penny an acre proclamations. After a few remarks -from the Governor and other members, the motion. was withdrawn. The Crowu Titles Bill was re-committed, and further postponed until Wednesday. Several notices of motions vi ere given, and the Council* adjourned until two o'clock on Wednesday.