Thursday, May 31.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 400, 2 June 1849, Page 3

Thursday, May 31.

The Council met at two o'clock, and resumed the consideration of the estimates.

The Lieutenant-Governor said, that before putting the amendment he would explain for the information of those members who were not present at the last sitting the nature of the proposition before the Council. An amendment had been proposed to expunge from the estimates the items for native presents, the entertainment of native chiefs, and charitable aid, which was lost ; and another amendment was then proposed to the effect that the two first items should be reduced to £150. He had considered it his duty to request one of the official members to move that the committee should adjourn in order that the question might be submitted to a full Council. It had been stated by an hon. member at the last meeting, that these items should farm a chaige on the Parliamentary Grant, but he could not admit that such was the case, it was uncertain how long the Parliamentary Grant would be continued, and as the items were very necessary, they would then have to be provided out of the general revenue. One of the hon. members for Nelson had observed that be thought the natives were rapidly improving in civilisation and th.tt it was unnecessary to give them baubles which, after a three days wonder, -would be thrown away and thought no more of. He quite agreed with the hon. member that the natives were making rapid improvement, but that referred moreespecially to theimmediate neighbourhtod of the settlements. Those residing in the more distant parts, and the old chiefs, were still to some extent like children and ought to be treated as such. A hon. member had stated that the Council were favourable to the natives, and he believed that such was the case. It had been observed that many of the items in the estimates were excluMvely for the benefit of the natives, and the Resident Magistrate at Waikanae had been considered unnecessary on account of the few Europeans in the district ; disputes, however, nere apt to arise between the Euroi peans and the natives which might lead to serious consequences. A singular instance had occuned since the Council last met. Rangihaeata, who had tecently come 'o Porirua, had taken a horse belonging to a white man. The white man was maried to a native woman, a relation of Rangihaeata, anil that chief might suppose that he had a right to tike the animal according to native custom. When the owner applied for the horse he was severely beaten. The Resident Magistrate in question happened to be at Poriiua at the time, ami he immediately demanded tl.at the horse should be given up. The next morning the horse was returned together with five pounds as compensation for beaiing the owner. T) r . Monro admitted the necessity of being on friendly terms with the natives, and he was most anxious that the Council should do all in their power to maintain the present amicable relations. The only thing in which he differed in opinion with h"n Excellency was, as to the means. The Council, or at least a great majority of them, thought this was to be done by the means already provided, — such as medical attendance, la) ing out their villages, &c. An Inspector was appointed at Waikanae principally on their account, and it had been incidentally staled that the committee had determined to recommend that a sum of £500 should be set apart for the education of the natives. This he conceived 'vas a sufficient guarantee for the continuance of the harmony existing between the two races. His Excellency se mcd to attach great importance to giving a few presents to the chiefs, and that if the C« uncil were not prepared to sanction such q t'ts he conceived that in Eng'and it would be urged as a strong argument against granting Representative Institutions. It appeared that the Council and the Government had both .be same object in view, the difference was as to tne mode of attaining it, and, wiih all deference to his Excellency's opinion, he could not think that making a few pres-nts was of turn importance as his Excellency seemed to consider. He thought it should be in the power of the Government to entertain the chiefs who might come to Wellington, but he knew a good deal of the habits of the natives, and he knew that one of their habits was that of begging, and when they had presents given them they were apt to go away and ridicule the donor. He considered indiscriminate charity and indiscriminate presents to be a bad practice, and most of the natives were able to provide for themselves such articles as steel flour mills. For these reasons he thought half the sum would suffice for the entertainment of chiefs, and to encourage friendly feelings, -and he could not ov r look the fact that the revenue was less than the expenditure, and the balance made up out of the Parliamentary Grant, and he could not vote for « larger sum. than he considered necessary to attain the objects his Excellency proposed. Dr. Greenwood said lie had on the last occasion expressed his intention to vote for the item as it stood in deference to the opinion of . tbe gqve*umeni, : *s be did not pretend to fcave

such knowledge of the natives as the gov«rnment must have. But with reference to the statement relative to Rangihaeata he doubted much whether the explanation his Excellency had given woul I satisfy the Council, that because a. i outrage had been prevented by the Resident Magistrate that therefore a Resident Magistrate should be appointed wherever an outrage was likely to happen. There were only two along the whole line of coast, and one happened to be on the spot in the present instance, bu! if lie had not been tbeie the sufferer would have 1 ad to make his complaint to the nearest Resident xVlagistrate. It appeared to him that to give a Resident Magistrate a lull salary when only part of his time was employed was not necessary, and he would suggest that some of the present magistrates might be appointed Resident Magistrates with salaries from £200 down to £150 according ro the amount of duties to be performed, and while in deference to the strong statements his Excellency had made he would a^ree to the items under consideration, he could not admit that so many Resident Magistrates were required. Mr. Moore wished especially to disclaim the slightest intention of interfering wiih the government in the fair distribution of patronage to the natives, but he considered in the ordinary course the government possessed patronage to a very large extent; it appeared by a paper belore him that a very considerable amount of the expense attending a purchase ol land was expended in presents, and when they saw the deficient revenue and that of the items under consideration the definte object ol only £185 was stated, he thought they ought to exercise some discretion in enlarging the amount which was already to a certain extent ai the disposal of the government, fie was far from wishing to prevent the government from entertaining native visitors who might arrive; he considered it very necessary to do so, but at the same time he thought it was less necessary now than forn.erly, and as he had before observed the more they gave the more they might give, and his acquaintance with the character of the natives would lead him in private matters to act on the same principles he was now recommending to the Council. The amendment that the two first items under the head of miscellaneous be reduced to £150 was then put and carried. The sum of £125 for horses for the police was expunged and, t e sum of £525 for miscellaneous were then passed. Dr. Monro rose to present a protest against the item under the head of ecclesiastical, being £200 to a Colonial Chaplain. In doing so he expres-eJ his regret that he should be compelled to assume a position of apparent hostility to providing the means of religious ministrations for the community ; he thought there was a waeit of such services. He also regretted that he should assume a position of apparent hostility towards a church against which he had no such feeling, but he protested against the manner in winch the appropiiation was made. The protest was then read as follows : Wellington, May 31st, 1849. I hereby protest against the appointment of a Colonial Chaplain, and against the salary of that officer being placed upon the Civil List of the I'rovincfe for the following reasons :—: — Firstly — Because the Chatter of the colon)', founded upon an Act of Parliament, expressly declares that the Civil L'st shall be applied to the purposes of '" the administration of justice and of the principal civil officers of the Government." And as the office of Colonial Chaplain cannot he included under either of the abovp mentioned heads, I conceive that iv placing his salaiy upon the Civil List, the Charter of the colony i-. violated. Secondly. — [ pro'est against the appointment because us effect is to place one religious denomination in connexion with the state and thus to produce sectaiian jealousies and discord. Thirdly. — I protest against the appointment because I conceive that unless the principle be practically admitted, tlia* all classes of Christians aie to be supported by the Siate, it is unjust to take a sum out of the revenue contiibuted by all and apply it to the support of any one denomination. D. Monro. I concur in the above Henry W. Petre A. LUDLAM Alvred Domett. The Colonial Treasurer concurred in the seutiments of the hun. member. He viewed with considerable alarm the sum of £200, he looked upon it as the foundation on which to build a church establishment. He considered it as an attack on religious liberty, and they all knew how closely connected were civil and religious liberty. He could not see any great difference between forcing a person to belong to a particular creed and forcing him to contribute to the support of one to which he did not belong. He regretted thatthe item was j. laced on the Civil List because it prevented the Council from expressing theii opinion in the most direct manner. The Colonial Secretary said he entirely concurred with the lion, member who had just spoken ; and should sign the protest put in by his hon. friend (Dr. Monro) as it gave succinctly nud correctly the chief reason 8

against the appointment under discussion. He thought it hardly necessary to disclaim any hostile feeling towards either the Church of England or the individual minister who filled the office of Colonial Chaplain. He had the greatest pleasure in bparing witness to the exempbry manner in which that rev. gentleman performed the sacred duties of his calling. He well knew, that even with respect to physical exertions, those duties were of a nature which could not be satisfactorily performed Lot by a person of indefatigable zeal and activity. If the question simply were what remuneration such 'services deserved, he would declare his opinion that twice the amount of salary put down in the Civil List would be far under the mere pecuniary remuneration the rev. gentleman was entitled to look for. But the appointment was objected to on public principles, which were well enough stated in the protest. His Excellency had defended the appointment on the grounds of the office being a public one. But it was precisely as a public appointment that it was most objectionable. The reasons'given were that the Episcopalians were a very numerous body and greatly in want of additional religious ministrations. But if numerous there, was the greater obligation on them to supply this want themselves ; and in any case the whole public were not to provide ministers for one sect. Ihe other reason given was that the services of a clergyman were wanted for prisoners in the gaol and patients in the hospital. But it was obvious, that ministers of different sects would be required by prisoners and patients of different religions, and if a minister of one sect was supplied at the public expense for these purposes other sects had aright to expect the same attention to their adherents. Most of the prisoners hitherto had been military — and a great proportion of them had been Roman Catholics--and could not receive the spiritual ministrations of any but clergymen of their own persuasion. The only apparent ground of defence was, that the appointment was a private one, and the chaplain was an appendage of the Lieutenant-Gover-nor's establishment. But with every desire to protect the efficiency and preserve the dignity of that establishment, he thought that in so small a province a chaplain was hardly needed for these objects whatever the practice elsewhere, especially if an additional charge on the public purse was to be made to supply one. Mr. Moore said he could not go so far as to object that it was either the right or the duty of the Government to provide for the spiritual wants of those who came under their particular care, he thought it was the boundenduty of the Government to do this, and assuming that, he also thought it perfectly fair and just that the minister to be so appointed should be one who might be fairly considered to represent a majority, and there could be no doubt that the Church of England, as compaied with any other denomination, was in a very large majority ; still, although he could not sign the Piotest, be was compelled most reluctantly and painfully to object to the manner in which the appointment had been made. He objected to its having been put ont of the power of the Council to express any opinion on this item, without adopting the extreme measure, which he presume ! was the only one open to the hon. member who made the protest; and, secondly, he objected to the paj ment by the State for services rendered to the Church, and from the funds of the Church for services rendsred to i be state , and on a comparison of the amounts received by the reverend and estimable gentleman whose position was thus invidiously placed under discussion, it would appear that this in effect was done, as be received ;£2O l per annum from Government and £5» per annum from the Church funds. He had just heard an hon. member say that the zeal and services of the rev. gentleman entitled him to a much higher amount than that which he received, he quite agreed with the hon. member, and would go further, and say that, in his humble estimation, they were beyond nil praise, and be)ond all pecuin iry reward, and it was thrs consideration which constituted the great sacrifice of personal feeling, and the consequent pain wiih which under a sense of duty, he iiad made these remarks.