Monday, May 28.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 399, 30 May 1849, Page 3

Monday, May 28.

Council met at 2 o'clock. Dr. Greenwood presented a petition from Mr. Jinas Woodward, praying that the Council would not giant any funds from the state for the purpose of education. | The petition was read. Dr. Greenwood said that although he presented the petition be decidedly dissented from its prayer and conclusions. The Lieutenant-Governor laid on the table three returns relating to education. The Attorney General moved the second reading of the Constabulary Bill. After a short discussion, in which several hon. members expressed their desire that the provisions of the bill should be modified and curtailed ; it was read a second time, and the Attorney General gave notice that he should move that the Council do go into committee on the bill on Monday next. The Colonial Treasurer moved the reconsideration of the education address. Dr. Greenwood said that if the address had only pledged the Council to attend to the subject ot education, if it had only gave so tar us to assert that it was the duty of the Government to attend to the education of the people, he should have felt disposed to say as i much as he could in its favour, but he thought it went too far and that it was premature to move an address affirming principles, some of which were at least doubtful, and others erroneous or contradictory. In the second paragraph, for instance, "at variance with the

conclusions arrived at by the highest authorities on this matter, &c," he should like, to know what authorities 1 Again, "based upon principles directly opposed to those which the widest practical experience of various countries has proved to be correct." He did not think this was the case, he would instance two countries, the United States and Prussia. In Prussia religion was an essential part of education. There were schools for every religious persuasion, and persons might select any school, therefore the experience of Prussia did not agree with the resolution, and it was one of the two countries in which education was carried to the greatest extent. There was another point which they were called to express an opinion upon, "that pecuniary support should be given to such a degree only as not to supersede the necessity of private exertions to all establishments which confer a religious education, conducted by properly qualified laymen, and founded on the broad and simple precepts of Christianity." This was at variance with the latter part where his Excellency was asked to introduce a bill limiting the- bestowal of funds to schools founded on the system of " combined literary and separate religious instruction." Thus it first affirmed the necessity of a religious education, and then proposed to secure it by making no provision for it, and excluding it from the school room altogether. Whilst pointing out these objections to the address as it at present stood, he should be sorry for it to be supposed (hat he was opposed to the principle that the children in the colony ought to be educated, and that much more extensively than at present. It was as much the duty of Government to see to the prevention of crime as to the punishment of it; but how far should they interfere with vrhat was already done ? They should recollect that the greater part of what had been done was the work cf religious bodies ; and if they had now become alive to the necessity of exerting themselves, it should be rather by aiding in the work already commending than superseding it, or commenced *de novo.' There was a great difference between asserting that there was not enough done, and asserting that what was done was done wrong. He thought the question, how the money should be applied, would be best settled by a committee. He feared no plan they could adopt would please the gentlemen whose petition he had presented and whose opinions were those of a large class at home, but he did not think there were many of that class out here. He thought this gentleman's opinions were formed by reading publications containing strong articles on the subject, and all on one side. Dr. Mouro said the subject was one which he approached with much diffidence, both in consequence of its vital importance and from the consideration that men of the highest talents and philanthropy had differed so widely upou it. The petition that had been presented suggested, however, to him one question upon which he had no difficulty in makimg up his nvnd, the question whether the state should interfere to educate its subjects or not. He had no hesitation in saying that he considered it one of the most sacred duties of a government to provide for the education of the people. In support of this view of the case and to shew the advantages resulting from it, they had experience to appeal to. They could point to countries where this duty had been recognised and acted upon by the state for centuries. In Scotland since the early part of the 17th ceutury, a national system of instruction had been in operation, according to which the landholders of every parish were bound to contribute towards the support of a school house and a salary for the teacher, and he believed it was universally admitted that no institution had had a more beneficial effect upon that country, and that there was none to which her children were in a higher degree indebted for the success which had attended their enterprise in every part 4>f_ the world. The United States for nearly two centuries had experienced most important advantages from a national system of education, and he believed that the plan adopted in the New England settlements in the beginning of the 17th century had very probably been suggested by what had been done some 30 years sooner in Scotland. After some further remarks on tiiis subject, tending to prove that while men might be left to their own spontaneous etideavours in seeking the material comforts of this world, and even in providing for their religious necessities, but that there was not the same stimulus to prompt them to seek for education for their children, the hon. member proceeded to say, that the next great question was, whether education should be combined with religion or not, and this was a subject on which the highest authorities were much at variance. He might mention that the late venerable Dr. Chalmers had ultimately arrived at the conviction that the instruction of the people should be separated from religious education, not because he thought that the better system abstractedly, bat because having regard to the sectarian

prejudices too prevalent at home, he thought it better that the people should be instructed in a defective manner, than that thfy should not he instructed at a!L However great the weight which would attach to the opinion of siicli a man as Dr. Chalmers, it was to he borne in mind that it applied to a state of society Tery different from that in New Zealand, and divided by sectarian hostilities which he trusted would never arise bete to the same extent, and which had heen in a great measure engendered by the state favouring one particular religious denomination. Education, it had been said by Mr. Cobbett, was a word more misapplied than any in the English dictionary. Mr. Cobbett defined education to mean " bringing up." But Mr. Cobbett was no classical scholar, and his -definition was imperfect. Education does not mean biiuging up, but leading out or unfolding the faculties, and as he believed religion to be an essential element in the moral nature of man, he held that there could be no education properly speaking in which that quality was not unfolded and developed. There might of cturse instruction without religion, hut the-e could be no education in the proper ■sense of the term. Supposing now that they ha.il arrived at a conclusion as to the nature of the education which they would wish to give, a no less important question remained, viz., how to apply it in practice, or whether it might not be better to substitute some other system less abstractedly perfect. He intended to have gone into this subject at some length, but as he understood a committee was to be appointed to report upon the subject, he would not occupy the time of the Council any longer. He would conclude by remarking that if this committee should prove the instrument of originating a comprehensive and -liberal scheme of education for the inhabitants of this Province, they would be entitled to its -everlasting gratitude. The Colonial Secretary said that the honorable member opposite (Dr. Greenwood) had disputed some facts and attributed some inconsistencies to the address, which perhaps arose from the impossibility of stating the whole matter in the short space of an address. He agreed with the hon. member that Prussia and the United States had done most for education, but he did not know with respect to Prussia, that it had done best as well as most. He thought it gave an example rather to be avoided than imitated. The system however, of the United States was directly opposed in principle to that adopted in the bill now in operation, which was that of excluding from government aid all schools not under the direction of ecclesiastics. But the American system made it compulsory in all townships to support a school-house and master, hut the state had nothing to do with the religion he was to teach. That was a question long ago ■settled as wholly out of the piovince of government's duties. In Massachusetts, from the first, ministers had been expressly prohibited by law from being teachers in schools. Another apparent contradiction was then to be explained. The address contained a declaration in favour of aiding schools which .gave religious instruction by laymen, which was said to be at variance with the subsequent recommendation of the Irish system. This last was introduced to meet the difficulty of getting properly qualified laymen to instruct in the fundamentals of religion. It was thereTore proposed to make religious teaching a separate affair and thereby allow of the teaching of the non-essential as well as the essential part of religiou. But the principle declared was saved; for the government aid thus given was not given to sectarianism which was left entirely to its own exertions. The Colonial Secretary then argued against the principle of aiding from the public funds the teachers of different and opposite tenets of religion. If these differences were essential, hon. members could not conscientiously vote for the support of both. If, in separate schools, one teacher taught that the shrub called ' tutu' was poisonous, in the other that it was not, would any member give money to pay both teachers ? If, again, one should teach that the physical advantages of man's external condition were intended by Providence to be shared in by all, and that ■therefore those wbo were in want ought to help themselves from the property of those who had a superfluity, while another school taught that all theft was criminal, would hon. members give aid to both teachers 2 If difierences in creed, then, were essential, could they, with any better reason, support opposing ■ones ? But if they were not essential, surely it was unwise and impolitic to uphold a bill ■which must do violence to the consciences of •the hundreds, perhaps thousands, who thought them essential. If it was argued that these people J did not complain, was it not to he feared that I they were induced, by their share in the -money ; granted, to wink at the inconsistency in point; of conscience? Was it desirable to encourage; ihis I The Colonial Secretary then contend- • ed that it was contrary to the principle's of "the' : British Constitution to make grants of public

money which the whole people could not derive benefit from erually, and quoted a passage from a laic Quarterly Review to that < fleet, in reference to the education question. He said all these were reasons against the theory of the bill, he would now give them instances of its practical injustice. He held in his hand a letter from Mr. Strang, the Agent of the Established Cliurch of Scotland, complaining that their school could not be aided under the present bill, because they had no minister here. But the most notorious case was that of the schools of the " Nelson School Society; there were eight of these schools in all, they had been established for some years, had been gradually increasing in number and extent of operation, they gave religious but unsectarian education, and were highly popular at Nelson ; they had also been approved of by ministets of various persuasuasions, and by the Governor-in-Chief. But these schools, which greatly needed Government aid, would be shut out from it by the present bilL On the other hand, the Church schools, which only taught, up to June 1848, 164 scholars in all, had suddenly increased iheir number to between 300 and 400. Now, it certainly appeared as if this sudden increase had been stimulated by the immediate prospect of getting a large share of the Government grant. It was a favourable specimen of the good effect of such aid. But was it fair that the schools so long established should at the $arne time be prevented from receiving any thing ? Here was a case, he maintained, of gross practical injustice ; the Council had it clearly before them ; while the present bill stood this injustice would exist : Were they, he asked, prepared to insist on its continued perpetration ? He wished the Council would *dopt the general proposition, that religious education should be given by laymen ; but whatever they decided upon with respect to the general principle, the practical injustice it was their duly to remove. The Attorney General said there were strong reasons to object to the present ordinance. It gave all the money to ecclesiastics, dividing it into small portions, and that body in this colony was already preoccupied, their mission being to the natives, not to the Europeans. He thought the funds would be most available if divided into large portions, and given to lay teachers. There was another objection to entrusting them toth? clergy. Their mission was to the natives, and it was a question whether it might not involve teaching Maories and white people together, which he thought would be a great objection ; but if they had to divide their attention bet-ween tbe two, that would be another reason for an appropriation such as l«e had suggested. Mr. Moore said thatlookingalthemain provisions of the ordinance now in force and at the address, he should hesitate to take theresponsihiliiy of agreeing to the address or of asserting that any injustice was done by the ordinance now in force, it did not appear to him there was any injustice because it included all the heads of religious denominations and did not preclude people fiom obtaining a secular education. He agreed with the hon. member who said that education was almost, if not quite, inseparable from religion, and until they were led to believe that injustice existed under the present ordinance he was inclined to let it operate and see if there was any injustice, he did not think there would be so great an amount of evil as would arise from the introduction of a new and innovating system. After some furth-r discussion a committee was appointed, consisting of the Colonial Secretary, the Colonial Treasurer, the AttorneyGeneral, Dr. Greenwood, Dr. Monro, Mr. .Seymour, and Mr. Hunter. The further consideration of Mr. Mathieson's memorial was withdrawn. Mr o Moore rose' to request the favourable consideration of the Council to the memorial which he had the honor to present on behalf of the Committee of the Mechanics' Institute, and iv furtherance of it he was about to submit a motion to them. He did so with considerable confidence. He believed they all agreed as to the propriety of the object, although some horu gentlemen differed with him as to the manner in which that object should be sought. The past history of the Institute was not a very cheering one, and he believed that the vote of that Council would have a most important influence in determining its future prospects. He looked upon it as a purely educational question, and as one combining very great popularity with very grea: utility and economy. There was at present no place except the hotels where young men could meet aad obtain relaxation and recreation, where youth could mix aud gain a knowledge of the social and political relations of society. There was ro place where facts in natural history could be recorded and placed within reach of those interested in them, or where specimens could be, preserved in a museum. It is true there had been for some years an Institute, of the kind, but it had been languishing, and 'the soJe cause appeared to be that they had never had a proper building for

lectures, or as a library and reading room. He would specially instance the classes for n.utual instruction. There was one for the instruction of the junior branches, a class for linear drawing, conducted by Mr. Norgrove, and numbering about 20 pupils ; others would have joined if there had been sufficient accommodation. Among those who had expressed interest in the matter he would mention his Excellency the Governor-in-Chief, who, on being applied to, evinced great interest, and gave a donation towards it. The late Colonel Wakefield also evinced great interest, and gave a donation of books. His Honor the Judge was President, and Mr. Fox one of the Vice Presidents. There were about 150 members who paid 10s. per annum cheerfully, and he believed they would increase their subscription if necessary. The library contained at present about 700 vols., and about 250 more were expected, perhaps by the next ship from England. A neat design had been prepared by Mr. Cridland, to carry out the whole of which would cost £480, but the Committee contemplated expending £300 in the first place, and he believed if this were done an impetus would be given which would enable them at no distant period to complete it. He believed that if ihe assistance was granted a building would be at once erected, which would be a very useful Institution and add very greatly to the appearance of this place. He therefore moved that the Council recommend his Excellency to place on the estimates for the ensuing year a sum not exceeding £100 in aid of the Mechanics' lnstitute. Mr. Hickson in seconding the motion would merely express his opinion of tbe great importance of the object, which was second only to that so recently before the Council, viz , education. The Attorney-General said he was quite in favour of the motion, and he thought that they ought to do what they could to aid the object without regard to tha expense ; he considered that a parsimonious policy was not a good policy, and he was prepared to support the memorial. Dr. Monro thought the object was a most laudableone, and one which they ought by eve^y means to further as far as they could, but he did not see that the Council could consistently vote any sum for any such purpose. If the Go-vernor-in-Chief was willing" to give .£lOO out of the Parliamentary Grant such a course would have his warm approbation, but that was a sum over which the Council bad no control. Dr. Greenwood said, that agreeing as he did with the observations of his hon. friend, he should not have risen if it were not that a request to his Excellency to appropriate a sum of money implied our readiness to find the means of doing so, and it was necessary to shew that these were funds for the purpose. Mr. Ludiam thought it would be better to apply to the Governor-in-Chief to give a sum out of the Parliamentary Grant. Mr. Moore thought hon. members were arguing fora distinction without a difference. It made very little difference whether the Council voted that a sum be placed on the estimates and then that the Governor-in-Chief should take j£loo more out of the grant, or whether the motion was shaped differently and asked for £100 direct. He had no doubt in going through the estimates they should be able to save £100 or even £200, and with regard to the argument of | his hon. friend Mr. Ludiam, he believed that this motion was consistent with economy, and was one which was likely to save the Government the necessity of spending hundreds and thousands in education. The Lieutenant-Governor said that the rea- | son why the Government had not appropriated the sum without a vote of the Council was, that it was a purpose for which public funds were not usually applied and it might lead to other applications, but if the application came to Government with the authority of the Council they would have no hesitation in placing that sum on the estimates. The Colonial Treasurer would be glad to see jCIOQ voted for the Mechanics Institute. He believed it to be a useful institution and was a subscriber to it himself, but he objected to see the sum placed on the estimates unless they were then reduced within the revenue. The Council then divided. — For the motion, Messrs. Moore, Hickson, Hunter, and Bannatyne. — Against it, the Colonial Secretary, the Colonial Treasurer, the Senior Military Officer, Messrs. Greenwood, Monro, Seymour, and Ludiam. The Attorney-General was out of the room. The Council then adjourned until Tuesday.