Friday, May 25, 1849.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 399, 30 May 1849, Page 2

Friday, May 25, 1849.

The Council met at 2 p.m. The Census Bill and Entire Horses Bill were read a third time and passed. The Council then went into Committee on the Appropriation Bill. The title and preamble having been agreed to, The Colonial Treasurer moved that the sum of £580 be appropriated for the establishment of the Lieutenant-Governor. Mr, Seymour said that it appeared from the schedule that the sum of £12,000 was the only sum the Council ought to vote, the Civil List being beyond their control, and he thought they ought to confine themselves within the anticipated revenue. It struck him that it would be desirable to divide that sum equitably between the different settlements and then subdivide it into departments. He wished to vote proper payment to every person engaged in the administration of the Government but not to exceed the revenue. The Lieutenant-Governor said that hon. gentlemen were not called upon to vote the items in the Civil List, and with regard to the unwillingness which the hon member had expressed to vote any portion of the Parliamentary Grant, it would be for the Council to consider whether or not the Government required «ny additional funds. He would refer them to the Auckland estimates of last ypar, in which a portion of the grant was included. Mr. Seymour feared they should be voting money which they might hereafter be called upon to refund. He wished to guard as far as possible against placing the colony in debt. The Lieutenant-Governor said it was not possible that a debt could be created, as, if the Revenue and Parliamentary Grant were insufficient, of course the payments could not be made. The grant was given by the home government for the use of the colony, and it was not intended to be repaid. Mr. Hickson was of opinion that the Council was not justified in appropriating a larger sum ihan the revenue, and he objected to spending the Parliamentary Grant for any other purpose than the opening of lines of road._ As a practical man who had been engaged in business all his lite, he saw clearly that the sum of £3000 might De saved from the estimates. Commencing with the establishment of bis Excellency the Lieutenant-

Govesnoj^. there were only two items which called for 'airy remark, viz., £125 to a confidential secretary and forage allowance to th n native secretary. From what had been said by his Excellency there was only one privatesecretary last year and" the native secretary was sometimes employed to assist.- , His Excellency explained that the vessel in which the private secretary left Sydney had never been heard of, but as there was a rumour that it had gone to , California he had abstained from appointing another immediately, he had hfl'wever" -required the assistance of an extra clerk and occasionally two. With regard to the native secretary that officer was often called upon to go considerable distances, and if he was not allowed forage the Government would have on such occasions to pay, all his expenses, this was the case until, the last month, and as a singular illustration he would mention that not long since the, native secretary had occasion to hire a horse, the horse became lame and the Government bad to pay the expenses. Dr. Greenwood suggested that the lion, member having stated that he could effect a reduction of £3000 on the estimates, he should state generally how he proposed to do so and go into his arguments afterwards. Mr. Hickson said he would take first the Colonial Secretary's office, and from his knowledge of business he thought the Colonial Secretary's and Auditor"General's departments might be combined and the auditor done away with altogether. His Excellency said it was useless for the hon. member to go into the question of combining departments because the heads oi the departments were included in the Civil List. Mr. Hickson proceeded, he proposed tosave £150 by combining the two offices of Colonial Secretaiy and Audit. On the Treasurer's department he would save £250. On the Attorney-General's £220. On the postoffice he proposed instead of a saving to add £60 to the salary of the Po>t-master." On the Police he would save £477 6s. 3d. In the miscellaneous, three items amounting to £-100,. making a total of £1437 6s. 3. for Wellington alone In the Nelson estimates he would effect a reduction of £100 on the Registrar General's department, and £62 in the item of charitable aid. In Otago he would deduct the forage! allowance to the Inspector £54 15s. and one corporal £69 19s. 2d. There weretwo other items on which he would not expi ess any opinion, viz., £800 for education, and £900 for public offices. He though! the revenue for Nelson had been over estimated,, and the Council would take into consideration that the rjvenue was liable to be teduced, but that what expenditure they voted could; not be reduced. The Lieutenant-Governor said that before putting the question as to his own establishment he would state that the Pr.vate Secretary was also clerk of the Executive Council, which caused a considerable amount of work, as copies of all the minutes, which were very voluminous, had to be forwarded to Auckland in triplicate. Dr. Monro said th-af it appeared to him, that between the departments o& the Lieute-nant-Governor and Colonial Secretary there was a large establishment of clerks. He thought some of the work might be transferred from the Lieutenant-Governor's to the Colonial Secretary's office.. " Mr. Moore quite agreed with the remarks which had fallenfrom the hon. members with regard to curtailing the expenditure within the estimated revenue. This was the princiole on which a prudent individual would act, and a prudent government ought to do the same ; ami although, as his Excellency .hidobserved, there was another fund available, there was no- reason why they- should spend more money than was absolutely, necessary. Taking that, view of the case, he should,, iti going through the estimates, be obliged* to perform the painful task of calling in question some of the items which he thought excessive, first, because the expenditure exceeded the revenue, and secondly, because they were disproportioned lo the. duty to be perioimed. He thought some of the items in the Civil List ought to be curtailed, but* asthey were prevented from doing this they should be obliged to curtail some which otherwise they would have scarcely thought of. He thought the forage allowance to all the departments was too high, that a horse in constant use might be kept for less than £54 : 155., and that in some cases it was unnecessary. He agreed with his hon. friend that the Native Secretary might do without forage allowance. He could not conceive how the Government should require such an immense number of clerkjs, and without wishing to offer opposition to the Government, he thought that his Excellency's establishment could dispense with one clerk. The Lieutenant- Governor said that hon. members had mis-suted the relations .which exist with regard to the expenditure and_ the revenue. , If there was only a certain revenue, then .the expenditure must be kept within that

revenue. But when the home Government consider certain systems of government necessary, and give an additional amount to meet the expenditure, it was hardly fair that Council to say that the expenditure should he within the revenue. With regard to his own establishment, he should be sorry to see a reduction in that department, because he felt that in that case he could not discharge efficiently the duties: expected of him. With regard to the forage allowance, the scale was that adopted by the military, and was, he believed, established by a board of officers, last year it was 3s. 3d. per diem, this year it was only 2s. 6d. Dr. Greenwood said that the discussion convinced him that they were called upon to vote estimates about which they knew nothing at all, they were obliged to take them from the Government. He did not know what were the duties of a Lieutenant-Governor, a Colonial Secretary, or Attorney General any more than he knew how many men were required in a man-of-war, and therefore they were- led into an invidious discussion as to how much should be given as forage allowance, or whether the Native Secretary required forage allowance. He looked upon the Civil List -as a reserve in case of necessity, but not to give them a government out of proportion to their wants. He was prepared to vote the sum set down to the establishment of his Excellency, but he thought one government would be sufficient without so many Colonial Secretaries, and so many Executive Governments, and if the home Government chose to have sued a form of government, it was not in his opinion fai' to make it a charge on the European population. He thought one Judge would do for New Zealand, and he would turn the other into a dozen schoolmasters. He thought one Auditor-General would do, and that the other (that is, his salary) might be employed in repairing the Hutt road. He also thought one Attorney Geneial would do The Colonial Treasurer observed, with regard to a remark which hat 1 beon made by an hon. gentleman that the business of the government should be managed as that of a private individual, thai the government servants had certain rules laid down, and if they did not conform to those rules they would soon find themselves in difficulty. Mr. Ludlam thought the Parliamentary Grant should be employed for making roads, and if the sum of £2700 was taken from it - there would he fewer miles of roads constructed. He wished to know whether it was the intPDiion of the Government to do the work on the roads by contract? His Excellency said the Parliamentary graut was not given for the exclusive purpose of making roads. It was placed at the disposal of the Governor-in-Chief for any purpose that might be required. With regard to contracts, the Government were desirous to adopt that system wherever it appeared practicable, but thete was sometimes a difficulty in obtaining eligible tenders. Mr. Hickson moved that the sum of £54 15s. as forage allowance to the Native Secretary be expunged. Mr. Moore said he would briefly explain h's reasons for seconding the motion. Tiifling as was the sum, there was a principle to go upon ; they had been recommended by his Excellency to use economy,, and it was their duty to do so ; there were many reasons for economy — one was to provide means for the promotion of education, and another, which had. been mentioned by, bis Excellency the Governor-in-Chief, was to form a fund ior promoting steam navigation ; he did not know how this was to be accomplished, but they must-make a beginning and endeavour to attain that important object. After some further discussion, the amendment was put and carried. , The sum of £.525:5 was then voted for 'the Lieutenant-Governor's establishment. Dr. Greenwood asked whether any reduction they might make in the estimates would leave any sum available for any other purpose, or whether it would fall into 'the Parliamentary Grant. - , , 'His, Excellency said it would only be for other services- connected with the Departments. ' r - , j The Colonial Treasurer having moved that the sum of £419, be appropriated lor the department of the Colonial Secretary. Mr. Hickson proposed as an amendment, the , sum ..be £469, being , an increase of £50 a-yrar to Mr. Grimstone. Dr. Monro saii he had considerable reluctance in making any remarks* upon the items of the Civil List, inasmuch as these were not under the control of the Council, but as it was the wish of the, Government that individual, members should express their opinion upon these items, he would offer a few remarks upon the one included in the department under consideration, viz., £400 a-year for the Colonial Secretary. While he wished to proceed in the roost economical manner, and to note Uptbing thf t the exigencies of, the public ser-

vice did not require, he was compelled to bear in mind that there was such a thing as a false, unwise, and self-defeatin? economy. Now, with regard to the salary of £400 a- year, he certainly thought that too low a remuneration for the office of Colonial Secretary. He believed that the Colonial Secretary was the principal officer of the Government, and that his duties were more arduous, varied, and responsible than those of any other Government officer. He considered the situation of Colonial Secretary in the Government as similar to that of first lieutenant in a ship of war, and he certainly thought a Colonial Secretary should be patd a higher salary than the other Government officers, and that it should be such as would place him in a position in society corresponding to hit conspicuous and responsible situation in the Government. He did not believe that in any British colony a Col. Sec. received so low a salary as in this Province. In New Ulster the salary, he believed, was nearly £700 a-year, and in the colony of Western Australia, with a population of not more than 4,500 souls, the Colonial Secretary received £500. He could not see the justice of the rule which seemed to have been adopted in this Province, of placing ! certain heads of departments in this Province on the same scale of remuneration : their duties, he thought, were very different, as well as their responsibilities, and they should be paid accordingly. He concluded by express1 ing his decided opinion that the salary of the Colonial Secretary should be higher. The Colonial Secretary said he did not wish any vote to be made on this subject, as he thought the salary sufficient for the duties which he had to perform. 4 , His Excellency said that the Government was quite aware that many of the salaries of the heads of departments were inadequate to their position, but while the expenditure was in excess of the revenue he thought they could not be raised. He looked forward to the tim=» when the revenue would allow these salaries to be increased. Dr. Monro inquired if they could vote an increase on any salary contained in the Civil List? His Excellency having assen'ed Dr. Monro said he should make a specific motion on the subject. The Colonial Secretary again objected. He did not des're an increase, would not ask for any, nor, if the salary were reduced, would he condescend to ask it to be restored. The Lieutenant-Governor said if they raised the salary of the Colonial Secretary he thought they would have to raise that of other similar offices. Mr. Moore thought under present circumstances the salary was sufficient ; he had heard with some dismay the remark of his Excellency respecting the prospective increase ol all the salaries. Dr. Greenwood would admit that the salaries were inadequate, but he thought it would be better to be satisfied with a little less efficiency for the sake of having money for other purposes. His Excellency said that an hon. member (Mr. Moore) had expressed some fear as to the salaries being increased, but he would observe that as the Civil List would only just cover the present amounts, it would rest with the Council whether they made any increase or not. Mr. Hickson's amendment was put and and passed. The Colonial Treasurer having moved that the sum of £165 : 15 be appropriated to the Treasury department. Mr. Hickson said he was sorry to move an amendment, but he knew from his own experience, and without fear of contradiction, that one person, if he knew his duty, was competent to discharge the business of the Colonial Treasurer's office, and therefore it was his unpleasant duty, in consequence of the Civil List putting it out of his power to touch the head, to move that the department be reduced to £15 : 15. The Lieutenant-Governor said that the Colonial Treasurer had other duties to perform, such as attending that Council and the. Executive Council ; he was often called upon to give the Government a variety of information. If he had no clerk how would the business of the office be conducted in his absence 1 Dr. Greenwood had no hesitation in voting for the item as it stood in the schedule. If they had a Colonial Treasurer he must have a clerk, the Treasurer having other duties to perform as a member of the Government. Dr. Monro thought if the Province would only afford £400 a year to the Colonial Secretary it could not afford £400 to the Treasurer. Mr. Moore rose to second the amendment, he thought the amount awarded to the Treasurer's office too large, and that there was so great a difference between the offices' of Colonial Secretary and Colonial Treasurer, that they ought not to be paid at the same rate, the one required a master miud the other a mere mechanical one. . ._ . ,

,~", ~" "f lic TJolonfaTTreasurer sai<l~that without denying that the duties of Colonial Secretary required a master mind, he would ohseive that the Treasurer also had important and responsible 'Juries, and although a mechanical mind might suffice for the mere keeping of accounts, yet if the Colonial Treasurer possessed more than a mechanical mi:>d he thought the hon. gentleman would allow that he would have opportunities of rendering it useful to the Government. The amendment was lost, and the original motion carried. A similar reduction in the Audit Department, proposed by Mr. Hickson, for the same reasons, was likewise lost after a short discussion. The Colonial Treasurer then proposed the sum of £134: : 15 : 0 to the Survey Department. Mr. Ludlara considered that the Surveyor if employed in superintending the making of roads should be paid out of the Parliamentary Grant. His Exce'lency replied that if the Surveyor was so era) loyed the amount voted would be available for the payment of an assistant surveyor. The Government could not do without one surveyor, as there were a variety of duties to be performed, such as superintending buildings and marking out boun laries, and the Surveyor had also been frequently called upon to lay out native villages. Dr. Greenwood said that the expenses of laying out native villages ought to be paid out of funds arising from the native reserves. His Excellency replied that the funds had hitherto been swallowed up in the expense of management, but that a new board was recently formed which would act gratuitously, so that he hoped there would soon be available funds. Dr. Monro thought £404 : 15:0 a large sum for the Survey Department, considering that there was no laud at the disposal of the Government, he thought the cheaper plan would be to engage a surveyor as occasion required. With regarl to the Surveyor being employed for the natives he did not consider that the Government should pay for such surveys out of the revenue of the colony, the natives were able to pay for them themselves and ought to do so. Dr. Greenwood did not agree with his hon. friend ; he thought it desirable to give the natives assistance at first, until they had learned the value of it and then they would be willing to pay for it. His Excellency, in illustration of Dr. Greenwood's remarks, mentioned that sterl mills had now come into constant use among the natives in consequence of the Government having given them a tew in the first place. Mr. Ludlam moved, and Dr. Monro seconded, that the item for the Survey Department be expunged. The amendment was put and the votes being equal his Excellency gave his casting vote against it. Mr. Moore then moved another amendment to the effect that the sum of £100 should stand as contingencies for the Survey Department. He said that as it was uncertain that the Surveyor would be employed on the roads he thought the item of forage allowance unnecessary. Mr. Hickson seconded the amendment, which was lost, and the original motion was then carried. The Council having resumed was adjourned till Monday, at 2 p.m.