LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 395, 16 May 1849, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Present — His Excellency the Lieutenant-Gover-nor, and all the Members with the exception of Messrs. Bannatyhe, Bell, and Hunter. His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor laid on the table a Bill to enable the GoVernment to levy rates (or the purpose of keeping the roads in repair ; also, A Bill to provide a cheap and expeditious mode of procedure against persons occupying land or premises without any right or title. In reference to the latter bill, his Excellency said it was intended to apply more especially to Nelson, The intention of the bill was to provide a cheap and summary means of removing settlers from the lands of private individuals. Mr. Hickson gave notice that on Monday next he should move the first reading of the bill for levying road rates. Dr. Monro gave notice that on Monday next he should move for the following returns : v 1. A comparative return of the revenue

and expenditure of the various settlements I within the Province since the Ist of Janui ary, 1848. 2. A compa ative return of ihe revenue and expenditure of each settlement for each quarter during the same period. 3. A comparative return of the imports and exports of the different settlements since the Ist of January, 1848. 4. A comparative return of the value of such imports and exports. 5. A comparative return of the exports, the produce of each settlement. 6. A comparative return of the amount of land in cultivation in each settlement. 7. A comparative return of the amount stock in each settlement. 8. A return of the amount of money received by the Province out of the Parliamentary grant in aid of the revenue since the Ist of January, 1848, and of the appropriation of the same. 9. A comparative return of the amount of Parliamentary grant expended in the different settlements of the Province since the Ist of January, 1848. The Colonial Treasurer ii moving the Census Bill, observed, that much of the information which this Bill would enable the Government to obtain, was required by the Home Government ; but there were many details which were not required by the Home Government, and he was not aware that they were necessary here. The Attorney General seconded the motion The Bill having been read — Dr. Monro regretted that bis Excellency had deemed it necessary to lay the Bill on the table. He thought, that as far as Nelson was concerned, no objection existed to give all reasonable information to the Government, and that it was the duty of Government, before bringing forward such a Bill, to have made out a case, as it were, against the inhabitants, to shew that some obstacles existed in obtaining the information they required. He would go further than this. He considered the Bill un -British, as it invaded the sanctuary cf a man's private affairs, and he did not con&ider that an answer to all the questions could be required. He would move that the Bill be read a second time this day six months. Mr. Hickson seconded the motion. ' The Colonial Secretary said he would beg the Council to consider further before adopting the amendment. The principal objection urged against the Bill was that it compelled persons to answer unnecessary questions. He (the Colonial Secretary) was of opinion that it might be necessary to have information on many points ; indeed, the Hon. member had given a strong reason against his own amendment by calling foi a long list of returns, some of which could not be obtained without some such process as the present. He would admit that not much difficulty had been experienced in obtaining information, but there had been some few cases of opposition, which would tend to render the whole ineffective ; he therefore hoped the hon, gentleman would not press his amendment. His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor stated the very cases which the hon. member asserted ought to have been made out by the Government really did not exist ; the Collectors were in some cases unable to obtain the information, and in one or two cases they had been turned out of the house. These few cases, as observed by the Colonial Secretary, would tend to falsify the whole. Another object of the Bill was to make the returns simultaneous ; according to the present plan the forms were sent round by a solitary policeman, who had to travel hundreds of miles, and occupy some months of time, so that the returns when obtained were not for the same period. He was of opinion that without some such provision the Government would be unable to supply necessary statistical information. The Attorney General said that tho first reason which had been given by the hon. gentleman who moved the second reading that day six months was, that the Bill was un British. When it was first proposed to adopt the use of the ballot in England it was said to be un Eng ish. The ballot, was however adopted now in almost all cases but elections of Members of Parlia<rent, and it appeared that the word un English really meant nothing, and in his humble opinion un British meant just the same thing : he did not think the Bill would be generally distasteful, but in his opinion those few who would object to it, would be just those few who would refuse to give thi3 information without it. If the Bill was not carried it would be impossible to supply the information required by the Home Government. The Bill did not interfere with the private affairs of individuals, as all the l-eturns were of a general nature, giving only the totals, without entering into the details of individual cases. Dr. Greenwood said, that the amendment, if it had done nothing more than call

forth the explanations as to the use of the Bill was, he thought, not unnecessary, and he would own that when the amendment was proposed he felt very much inclined to suppcrt it. He could not previously learn either from the mover or seconder of the Bill that any difficulty had arisen which rendered such a bill necessary. Now, however, he could see no objection to the second reading. He felt that the Council should be careful how they strengthened the hands of those who were inclined to offer opposition. As to the returns not entering" into the private affairs of individuals, he knew that to be directly contrary to the fact. He (Dr. Greenwood) instanced a case in which the Nelson Examiner had obtained the returns relating to a particular class of settlers, and published them in the greatest detail. Mr. Moore approved of the main object of the Bill, and he certainly expected to have seen it pass into committee. He was quite prepared in 'ommittee to vote for considerable modifications for the following the following reasons : — A number of questions were of an inquisitorial nature ; the. expense of collecting the information, and of printing the forms, &c, would be considerable ; and, moreover, he questioned the right of Government to put questions, some of which if honestly answered would have the effect in some cases "of rendering persons amenable to the laws. The p incipal matters required were the amount of population, and the amount of stock. He would support the motion for committee. Dr. Monro, in reply, stated that he did not wish to underrate the value of statistical in r ormation, but what had been said in support of the Bill had a tendency to shew that such information might be obtained by the ordinary machinery, and he conceived that it was the business of the Government to make out a case that such a Bill was necessary. By his Excellency's admission very few had objected to furnish the required information, and it must be observed that in those returns there were certain clauses which would subject parties to a penalty for a breach of the law, he would object to such returns himself, and if in some cases the collector had been turned out of doors, it was his opinion that he had been properly treated. As to the time occupied in collecting the information, he could say that in Nelson at least there were plenty of police who could be employed for this purpose, and he believed that in Nelson there would be no objection to answer those questions which were necessary. He considered the Bill uncalled for and unnecessary. The Colonial Treasurer said, that the hon. Member having stated that the persons who turned the collector out of doors did perfectly right, he wished to know how he would define the power which such persons possessed of turning collectors out of doors, if that system was allowed he was afraid it would come at last to their obtaining no information at all. On a division the amendment was lost. The original motion was then put, and the Bill read a second time. The Colonial Treaturer gave notice that, on Monday next he should move the Council do go into committee on the " Census Bill." Dr. Greenwood then moved, that the Council do go into committee on the "Medical Bill." His Excellency the Lieutenant- Governor said, that in answer to the objections which had been raised the other day, he would state, that the objects of the Bill were threefold ; first, to inform the public who were properly qualified Medical Practitioners, secondly, to enable Medical Practitioners to receive remuneration in certain cases, and thirdly, to enable Magistrates to know who were qualified Medical men ; for by the Coroner's Act it was incumbent on the Corouer to call in the nearest in cases where medical evidence was required, and it would sometimes be difficult to know who was the nearest. In order to meet the objection to a tribunal consisting of Medical men, he would propose that a Board, consisting of the Resident Magistrate, and other Justices of the Peace, in all, not less than three shoul I be appointed to inspect the credentials, and that notice should then be given in the Government Gazette. The Government would then have a sufficient guarantee that they paid only properly qualified practitioners. Dr. Greenwood said, he had taken great pains to make himself acquainted with the feelings of those who should be considered in this question, and he was glad to find that there was little differencd between his views and those of the Government. With regard to the expediency of defining the qualifications at all, he did not think it was more necessary here than in England ; there he had often had occasion to give evidence but had never had his qualifications questioned, nor did he eyer know a case in which

qualifications were questioned. The second point was a mere act of justice, they were entitled to receive remuneration for that information which they were enabled to give, not as ordinary membeis of the community, but from their peculiar knowledge on certain subjects. He would move that a Beard be appointed, consisting of the principal officer of the Government, and any two Justices of the Peace. His Excellency said the motion of the hon. gentleman embodied all the Government required, he would only propose, as an alteration, that instead of the principal officer of Government, that it should be the Resident Magistrate, as it would not in all cases be convenient to the principal officer of the Government to undertake the duty. Dr, Greenwood then moved that the following clause be substituted in the places of clauses 1, 2, and 3, expunged : — Be it enacted by his Excellency the Lieu-tenant-Governor of New Munster, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Council thereof, as follows: — "That every person who is a Doctor or Bachelor of Medicine of some University, or a Physician or Surgeon, licensed or admitted as such by some College of Phys'cians or Surgeons in Great Britain or Ireland, or a Member of the Company of Apothecaries of London or Dublin, or who is, or has been a Medical officer duly appointed and confirmed of her Majesty's sea or land service, shall be deemed a legally qualified Medical Practitioner, and that every such person upon submitting his degree, diploma, certificate, or other proof ol such qualification for the examination of the Resident Magistrate in his district, shall be entitled ?o receive a certificate to that effect, and to have a notification of the same inserted in the Government Gazette upon payment of the sura of five shillings to the Colonial Treasurer on behalf of her Majesty for the public use of the Province of New Munster, and that such notification in the Government Gazette be received and taken in all cases as sufficient evidence that the person theiein described, is a legally qualified Medical Practitioner." Dr. Monro seconded the motion. Mr. Moore observed that the hon. gentleman had omitted the words " or graduate of some foreign university," he wished the wording of the bill to be as general as possible. Dr. Greenwood paid he had left it out designedly, as it would be almost impossible to decide what foreign universities were eligible. When Englishmen graduated at a foreign university it was generally with the intention of obtaining a diploma in England also, and the number of cases in which any inconvenience would be felt would be so infinitesimal, that he did not think they should legislate for them, especially as the object of the bill was only to enable the parties to receive payment in some few cases and not to prevent them from practising. The Attorney- General agreed with the hon. member for a reason not mentioned by him, that if the Resident Magistrate had power to exclude any, and if he exercised that power, it was likely to be attributed to invidious motives. The Colonial Secretary also expressed his opinion that it was better not to leave any discretionary power to the Resident Magistrate. The amendment was then put and carried. On the fourth clause Mr. Hickson moved as an amendment, " that if the place of his residence be beyond three miles he shall be entitled to two shillings and sixpence per mile for the entire distance," and instead of the words " receiving a salary from Government," the words " holding the situation of Colonial Surgeon" be substituted. Mr. Seymour seconded the amendment, which was passed. On the motion of Dr. Greenwood, the words " unless such previous examination shall appear to the Court to have been essential to further the ends of justice," were inserted after the words " as the case may be." After some other slight modifications in the wording, the Council resumed. On the motion of the Colonial Treasurer the Appropriation Bill was then read a first time. The Colonial Treasurer gave notice that he should move the second reading on Friday next. Dr. Monro then moved that a copy of the Instructions from the Lords of the Treasury under which the Civil List is appropriated, be laid on the table. His Excel ency in reply said, he would only lay on the table a copy of the Charter, there being no other instructions on the subject. Dr. Monro enquired if the Charter contained any instructions to the Governor or Lieutenant- Governor as to the appropriation of the Civil List, in the absence of instructions on the subject from the Lords of the Treasury.

His Excellency said he supposed such instructions would have been given if consi- ! dered necessary. Dr. Greenwood thought they could not go satisfactorily into the question of estimates without knowing what portion had been taken out of their power by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury. It was a very important point and one upon which it was very necessary there should be a thorough understanding. His Excellency said, that in reply to observations of hon. gentlemen on the subject of the Civil List, he would refer to a clause in the Charter, in which the Governor is required to account to the Lords Commissioners for the appropriation of the Civil List. This Council could not with propriety require further explanation, he would, however, state that he had no other instructions than those contained in the Charter. The document shewing the manner in which the Civil List of £6000 was appropriated was already on the table, and he should be prepared to account to the Lords Commissioners for his reasons in thus applying it. On the motion of the Colonial Treasurer the Council then adjourned till 2 p.m. on Monday.