LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. (Continued from No. 236.) Tuesday, September. 21.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IV, Issue 237, 6 November 1847, Page 3

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. (Continued from No. 236.)

Tuesday, September. 21.

Present — His Excellency the Governor, the Colonial Secretary, the Attorney General, the Colonial Treasurer, Mr. Brown, and Mr. Merriman. The minutes of the last meeting were read 'and confirmed. Mrfßrown rose to move, as he had previously given notice, for the copy of a despatch No. 41, irom Earl Grey to Governor Grey, dated 10th February, 1847, with all others named in the margin theieof : and also the copy of a despatch from his Excellency the Governor to the Bishop of New Zealand, dated 30th August last. The hon. member observed that in order to obviate the objection formerly raised by the Governor to the terms of his previous motion, on the grounds of its beiug too general, he had altered the terms of it to its present specific shape. For the production of the document first referred to, Mr. Brown rested his application on the ground that the despatches alluded to affected not merely the pecuniary interests of a large number of individuals, but likewise reflected injuriously upon their personal characters ; and such being the case these individuals had a right to be put in possession of the charges made against them, that they might have the means of justifying themselves to her Majesty's government, — such a request, he conceived, was only fair and honourable, and ought to be conceded. He did not expect his motion to be seconded by any member of the council, — and he would go further, and say, that properly speaking, it ought not to be seconded ; because if it were, the motion ought to be put to the vote, ami if such vote were carried, it would lay the Governor under the necessity of complying with it ; but he vsas aware that the Council had no power to compel production, of any documents by such means from his Excellency. It rested with him alone to produce the documents sought for, or to refuse them ; he therefore now brought the matter forward in the shape of a request, than a motion, and he apprehended that it could not be got rid of by want of the formality of a seconder. He included the letter written to*the Bishop in his request, and contended that the parties interested had good reason to seek the production of it, because it sought by means of the influence, interest, or the position of the Bishop with the missionaries, to urge them to give up their lands, by means which were neither legal or authorised. If such an attempt were successful, it would seriously affect the interests of the other land claimants, who stood in the same position with the missionaries. The Governor inquired if the hon. member could give any authority for the grave charge he bad just preferred, or prove that the Governor had ever made such an attempt to procure the Bishop's influence lor such a purpose. Mr. Brown said his information had been imparted to him in confidence, and the steps he had taken were, in some respects, to enable the Government to rid themselves o( an imputation he believed to be not altogether groundless. The claimants weie aware, as well as the Governor, that the Missionaries have a powerful influence at home, and have therefore' the means of obtaining redress for any injustice attempted towards them, but should their interest in the land question cease in consequence of the means taken through the Bishop, or by the more palpal le method of threatening them with the displeasure of the Society to which they belong, unless they should submit to the demands now made upon them, the private claimants who were uninfluential persons would then be isolated and without the means of obtaining justice from the Government. ' The Attorney General, after condemning the course pursued by Mr. Brown in bringing forward again a motion which had previously fallen to the grpund for want of a seconder, observed that the correspondence that had been moved for was either public and official or it was of a private nature. Even if the correspondence moved for had been of an official and public character, it would be obvious to the Council that the hon. member's motion was wholly unwarrantable. But what if the correspondence was of an entirely private nature — relating, solely to the affairs of the Church Missionary Society in England and their agents in this country — what then must be thought of the motion : and what would de-

servedly be thought of the Council, if without comment, jhey permitted motions to be made before them for the production of private correspondence ? But there was another feature in the case which rendered it, if possible, still more open to. censure. He could not say that the information on which the motion had been made, had been obtained by a breach of confidence, but it certainly came before the Council under circumstances of suspicion. On a former occasion, the hon., member when asked for his authority, declined, to give it, on the ground that the information had been giTen him^in confidence Now if the matter was of a public nature, and could with propriety be communicated to him, what need of mystery — of confidence 1 If private, was it respectful to the Council to call on its members to countenance a motion, appearing to rest on a betrayal of confidence, and that too for the production of a private letter. But apart from all other considerations, the, terms of the motion itself were most objectionable, for it cast upon a deserving body of men an .imputation as unfounded as it was unjust. The iuference to be drawn from the hon. member's motion undoubtedly was that every one of the Church Missionaries held a greater quantity than 2560 acres of land, and that in order to induce them to yield up a portion of these large possessions, it was nf-cessary to exert the united influence of the Governor and the Bishop. The imputation thus indirectly conveyed, he (the Attorney General) need hardly ,say, was utterly unfounded. In bringing forward this motion he would acquit the mover of intending any disrespect to the CouDcil, but when they were called upon to support a motion, unwarrantable in. its character — injurious in its tendency, and unfounded in fact, he thought that they owed it to themselves distinctly to disavow all participation in it. Mr. Merriman and the Colonial Secretary both joined in condemning Mr. Brown's motion. | Mr. Brown replied that he was well aware i that his motion implied censure upon the Government—but he had brought it forward to give the Government an opportunity of clearing themselves from that censure, which he regietted was so w.ell deserved. It had been said that the motion was irregular ; but he would refer to the practice of the House of Commons in similar ca.ses, and contend that when any member of that huuse thought pro1 per to call for the production of any official document-, he did not require a seconder to such a motion, and if it was deemed consistent with the welfare of the state, the document was at once produced. It was optional with the heads of departments in that house whether to produce papers called for in this way — and his Excellency could use the same discretion in the Council. It had also been sa.d that the letter refeiretl to was a private communication ; but the mere terms of "private and confidential" (if written upon it) did not constitute it a private document. It related to public matters, and was a public document to all intents and purposes, and calculated to produce an important effect upon a large number of the community. He did not expect, however, from what had already taken place, that the despatch would be produced : but he considered it his duty to take the best means in his power to obtain it. The Governor said that perhaps it was now his place to offer some remarks upon what had taken place in the council on the subject of this motion ; and he would fiist cbsetve i that the mode adopted in colonial legislatures ; in bringing forward requests such as had been , referred, to, was in the form of an address I from the Council to the Governor, — who, it was quite true, might or might not comply | with it, — as his own prudence might guide him. Iv this instance, the members of Council had not in any form, thought proper to make themselves parties to this procedure,: — for indeed from "the manner in which it had been brought before them, it was not entitled to their respect. He was sorry to say that a breach of confidence had been committed. — In the first place, by the publication in this country, of a despatch, obtained in an irregular way, and published without the concurlence either of the noble lord at the head of the colonial department, or of his own : and secondly in the construction which had been put upon the terms of a letter written by himself to the Lord, Bishop of New Zealand. In both cases, the manifest intention was to raise an outcry against the government, and to cause distrust and suspicion to be entertained. He had no doubt but that a small party of the colonists were discontented. But for what great principle were these individuals contending ? They were not standing up for any great political or religious principle — but merely for the advancement of their own selfish interests ; — and by their continued system of intimidation, and threats of prevailing disaffection, they hoped to drive the , Government into an acknowledgment of their illegal claims. He called upon the Council, as the law-givers of the colony, not to lend themselves to the furtherance of the designs of men whose selfish-

ness had blinded them to the general interests of this colony. The allegation of disaffection in the country he denied — and he believed it had been made in order to intimidate. A solitary instance had been stated on a previous day, but no name had been given, he believed, for very good reasons. He was not aware of any cause for discontent, but if any did exist, it was the result of the agitation of a few individual land claimants, who felt aggrieved that the Government did not give them possession of all that they desired ; he, however, was aware that on a former time discontent did prevail in the colony, which resulted in intimidation — to which, the Government, being weak, was obliged to submit; and was forced to adopt measures, the evil consequences of which have since been felt, and are still felt in the colony. The natives were allowed almost without restriction, to dispose of their lands, which were greedily purchased by the people, many of whom gave guns and powder, which were in exchange used against our troops, and became the instruments of much, bloodshed. He had been charged with disturbing titles to land. Novr nothing had been more constantly his aim and desire, than that all titles should be so adjusted, that they would stand on clear and unquestionable grounds — and he could confidently call upon any one to come forward and point out any instance in which he had unnecessarily disturbed any titles. No edict had been issued, but the courts of the country had been appealed to when the validity of titles was ou good grounds suspected. He was willing to test all questionable titles in the same way — but, notwithstanding all the allegations which had been made by selfish men, whose avowed object was, to band together a party strong enough to force the government into an acknowledgment of their illegal claims, he never would tacitly consent to oppress the natives by allowing titles to those gentlemen over excessive quantities of land, nor would he incur the certain loss of valuable lives and the expanse of British money in offering protection to them. He had spoken thus plainly fcr the sake of his own honour, and that of the government to which he belonged, for the insinuations that had been thrown out were most derogatory to the honour of the government of this country, and he felt it to.be hi» duty to repel them. It had been stated that these individuals wished to secure the assistance of the Church Missionaries, to further their designs, — but he could assure them that neither the Church Mission Society at home, nor its agents here, would unite with such persons for such objects ; and however specious, and however loud might be their professions of desire for the protection of the natives, it would at once be discovered that the sole reasons for their professions were purely selfish, — merely to secure the influence of a respectable body in order to advance the interests of some ten or twelve persons in number. His most earnest desire had been to bring these claims, old and new, to a final adjustment, for he knew that their settlement was of great importance to the welfare of the country ; he had acted to the best of his ability with a sincere desire for the interests of all parties — he might have erred, — he did not pretend to infallibility, but if it was shown that in any case he had acted unfairly, he was ready to make every reparation in his power. Mr. Brown replied by stating that he had uo desire in bringing forward the motion to damage either the Missionaries or their claims. l < He had taken the only open and honorable course to enable the Government to explain the matter by moving for a copy of the despatch, but the Government had not ventured to bring it forward. He had not desired to [ continue the subject further as he saw it could do no good : if the Council thought he had acted wrong' he was open to their censure, and although he might be censured by the Council, he conceived he had only done his duty in the steps he had taken. The Governor said, that as the hon. member had spoken four times, whereas he should have only spoken twice, perhaps he might be allowed to make an observation. If any persons felt aggrieved on the subject of their lands, he believed it to be their duty to apply to the Government. It was the duty of the subject, if he lelt any grievance, to appeal to the Crown. He could npt.conceive that such a degree of disaffection existed as had been stated — unless, indeed, some had been fomented by the, representations of a few individuals. Let those who think themselves, aggrieved come to (he Government and complain, instead I of sending through the hon. member who appeared to be their agent in the Council. j3e was not certain that this motion had not done harm. His actions in Council would be more narrowly watched from home, after sstp t bold an attempt had been made in that Council, to force the Government inio a recognition of such a principle regarding land. r „ The Attorney General said, that if this discussion or rather the bringing forward thjs motion,,, had been, mischievous in some jrsspects* which he by.no means intended tp-peny.

yet he thought that it had not been altogether without advantage. It now appeared, from the admission of the honourable member himself, that his motion on the subject of the church missionaries, had not been brought forward by him with the view of promoting the 'interests, or of in any way benefiting the members of that body, but simply for the purpose of strengthening a political party, consisting of a few of the large land claimants, for whom the Church Missionaries, according to the candid, but unwitting avowal of the honourable member, were to be made the cat'spaw. Being now put upon their guard as to the nature and real object of this proceeding, he, the Attorney General, hoped that the missionaries would take good care not to allow themselves to be in any manner identified with It, as well as to escape from the unseemly position in which it had been intended to place them. The Registration Bill was committed, and considered, after which the Council adjourned.