LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume III, Issue 145, 19 December 1846, Page 3

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Tuesday, Oct. 20, 1846. —Council met at 12 o'clock. —Present : all the Members. The Governor stated that he had heard out of Council that the honorahle member, Mr. Kennedy, had said that he could substantiate what he had alleged relative to the practice of other colonies in fixing their rate of duties according to the invoice price. As he was always anxious that honorable members should have the opportunity of stating their views on matters involving public interest, he was then ready to hear what further remarks the honorable member had to make on the subject. Mr. Kennedy said that he was still of the opinion that the practice which his Excellency wished to alter was now followed in Sydney. He had heard only yesterday of a case of an individual who had taken spars to Sydney from this Colony, where he had bought them from the natives for a shirt each; and on being required to pay the customary duty upon the spars in Sydney, he valued them at two shillings and sixpenec each. The duty was received, and the spars landed without any demur on the part of the Sydney authorities. The Attorney General replied by stating that the law of New Zealand had now no relation to that of New South Wales; and though the case which had been brought forward had occurred, yet, as the laws and ordinances of the two countries were now on a separate footing, he could not see that the practice adopted in the neighbouring colony, could have any influence in determining the course that should be followed here. Mr. Kennedy said that at the foundation of this colony the Customs law was word for word the same as in New South Wales. The Governor complimented the Council on the spirit in which this measure had been discussed ; but said that the discussion which members had then entered on, was rather irregular ; and it was only his desire to arrive at the truth, that had induced him to allow its continuance. Whatever had transpired at Sydney of the nature referred to by Mr. Ken- ! nedy must have been an exception to the general rule, and therefore was no guide for the practice here. He remembered that in South ' Australia the duties were fixed by the invoice price with 10 per cent, added, and so that no defraud could occur, the invoice was always referred to —and then the question arose, whether the port charges should be included in the cost of the goods, and duty charged upon the plus amount. His Excellency made a few other observations, and the subject was dropped. The Destitute Persons Relief Bill was further considered and amended.

Weights and Measures Bill. The Council went into committee for the further consideration of this bill when several amendments were made, a new clause or two introduced, and the bill was ordered to be brought up on the following day. The Customs Ordinance was then read a third time and passed. The Governor said he was unable to have the Estimates prepared for that day, but he would have them ready to lay on the table on the day following. —Council adjourned. Wednesday, Oct. 21,1846. —Council met at 12 o'clock. —Present, All the members. Mr. Donnelly moved for the following returns: 1. Separate returns, as nearly as they'can be made out, of the population (including the natives) of the northern and southern districts

of the Colony, the middle, and southern islands being included in the southern district. 2. Separate returns of the annual amounts of the imports and exports of the northern and southern districts of the Colony, from its formation to ■ , and distinguishing the principal articles of export in each district. 3. Separate returns of the shipping entered inwards and outwards, at the ports of each district, distinguishing the coasting and foreign trade. 4. Separate returns of the number of ships or vessels registered or licensed at and belonging to the ports of each district, from the foundation of the colony to . 5. Separate returns of the amount of revenue raised annually from each district, from the foundation of the colony to . 6. A return of all the foregoing pariculars for the northern district, for the last quarter. The Governor said, that all the returns moved for except the first, might be prepared, and laid on the table. It would be difficult for the Government to bring an accurate document under that head before the council, for there was no authentic data to work upon. He thought that a Census Ordinance wauld answer the purpose, and the outlay of a few hundred pounds would cover the expenses of procuring a correct account of the population. The native chiefs could be easily and cheaply procured for such purpose, and their assistance would be very effective in ascertaining the number of native population. In the event of the division of the colony, the determination of which he expected would arrive by the very next mail, the return called for would be rendered useless ; for each separate colony would make its own return with such accuracy as would tend to show the fallacious nature of any which the Government could now supply. Mr. Kennedy thought that great benefit would result from a Census such as was suggested by his Excellency. The districts of Kaipara, Tauranga the Thames, and others around Auckland, had never been included in previous reports, but the general census would remedy this, and the entire population would be correctly ascertained. The Colonial Secretary said, the returns hitherto were only made within the districts of police jurisdiction. Mr. Domett thought the proposed census would incur a very unnecessary expense upon the colonist. It would be a waste of money to satisfy mere curiosity. The Colonial Secretary said, that he thought the object of the census would be, not merely to satisfy curiosity, but to ascertain the relative importance of the different parts of the islands. The Governor said, that if it should happen hereafter that such a person as a Hume should arise to record the history of this important part of the world, and should he have before him a correct report of what had transpired that day, he would feel indignant at some observations that had been made! He, the Governor, could not help thinking that a census, accurately taken, would be a most important duty. It would afford facilities for the registration of lands belonging to the natives : and by it could be ascertained the number of commissioners necessary for such purpose ; also, the portion of such lands as would be required for the wants of the natives and how much military would be required ; and several other duties which would be of great consequence : hence, .he conceived, the census would be as valuable a record as the country could afford, and although there might be an immediate expense attending it, yet that would be very moderate when compared with the great outlay which would be saved in acquiring subsequent information upon the heads he had | alluded to. The trifling expense would be most beneficially laid out, and future ages would, he was certain, thank the council for incurring it. The Colonial Secretary thought that the expense wouloTbe greatly diminished, by employing the police and the natives for the purpose. The Governor conceived that not less than the sum of £1000 could be calculated on to defray the expense of the census. Mr. Donnelly's object in moving foi the return was, to ascertain as neaily as possible the present native population, and he thought that the report of the Chief Protector for last year, although it might be somewhat inaccurate, would afford sufficient data, to enable the council to arrive at such knowledge. The Governor said that the Government could not countenance the publication of inaccurate returns - y but if the Council wished, they, might examine such documents as the Government had in their possession on the subject.

. Weights and Measures Bill. , Mr. Donnelly then moved for the further consideration of the Weights and Measures Bill. The honorable member proposed a clause for the exemption of natives from the penalties of the bill, the consideration of which, with the other clauses was proceeded with :

and the committee having adjourned, the report was brought up, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday next.

The Estimates. The Governor laid the Estimates on the table, and observed that he had ordered the estimates of the previous year to be placed before honorable members that they might observe the changes in the establishments and expenditure of the colony which he had deemed advisable to make. His desire was to make the items of the expenditure as comprehensive as possible, without having recourse to the framing of a finance minute, which would be too extensive to be intelligible and easily understood by the public. He found that no previous estimates Jbad represented i the real state of the year's expenditure, and it would be a hopeless task for him to attempt to give any adequate idea of what sum might be reali zed from the revenue of the colony, for the ensuing year. Upon the whole therefore, he thought the best thing he could do was to bring before the council what he thought would be competent to support the civil establishment to the termination of the present year, with such slight alterations as he had made upon it ; and then the Council, he hoped, would suggest and advise with him as to the other establishments necessary for conducting the Government till that period would arrive. The revenue of the colony would not meet the expenditure which he proposed. At Wellington, for the quarter ending January, the receipts had been considerable ; but that arose from news having arrived by some private individual, of the disallowance of the Debenture Ordinance, before the official notification had reached that port. The consequence was, that the greater portion of goods in bond were released by payment of duties in debentures ; — but for the subsequent quarter there was a corresponding decrease. He found that there would be a deficiency in the revenue, but, if the council determined to appropriate whatever amount was raised towards defraying the expenses of the Government, the deficiency would be made up from the parliamentary grant. He had no doubt that before the present time a new scale of establishments had been fixed in England for the future government of these islands, and he therefore only wished to provide for the present year, for if the council extended their appropriation of money for a longer period, the whole arrangement might be upset in a few nonths after. He would now give an outline of the alterations he had made, and then leave the council to discuss the various items proposed, when the Appropriation Bill came under their consideration. The first item which did not agree with the estimates of last year, was the Governor's establishment, in which it would be seen that his own salary was omitted. The reason of this was that the colony at present had no fixed Governor ; his appointment was merely a temporary one, and as he held his present office at the pleasure of her Majesty's Government, his salary was paid from the Imperial Treasury. The printing establishment was done away with, which was another material alteration. He thought that a saving might be effected by throwing the government printing open to public tender : but some time must necessarily elapse before the result could be ascertained. In the Colonial Treasurer's department, he proposed that a Sub-Treasu-rer should be appointed for Wellington. The Collector of Customs now did the work of Treasurer at that place ; but this system was objected to by the Lords of the Treasury and Commissioners of Treasury at home, who said that no proper check could be kept over an individual holding the two offices conjointly, as he would be receiving the Customs duties as Collector, and paying them over to himself as Treasurer. The system had therefore been disallowed ; and the appointn.ent of an efficient sub-treasurer at Wellington was rendered imperative. This appointment would necessarily facilitate the publication of the Quarterly Returns of Revenue by the Colonial Treasurer, which should not be neglected, but which had frequently been retarded by the delay experienced iv the transmitting of accounts from the southern settlements. In the Audit Department a change had taken place ; the control of that part of the colonial service had, heretofore, been placed in the hands of a board ;but he thought that it would be better under one efficient head ; and he had therefore appointed an Auditor General, which office existed in all the other colonies. In the Customs he had also introduced a change from the former system of paying officers, and he had directed that the Post Office should be placed on the establishment, for although the Local Government had no direct control over that department, yet, as the public here contributed largely to its maintenance, tie thought it was right that the inhabitants should know the income and expenditure of that department. The Harbour Master's department required various alterations. He thought it was necessary to appoint pilots, and pay them regular salaries ; the present pilots complained of being underpaid, and had ncti-

fied their intention to resign, if they were not better remunerated ; and they only held their office till they ascertained what the Council would do towards fixing on them a sufficient salary. The public would then be deprived of pilots, if the Council did not provide for their salary ; be proposed to dispense with the coasting services of the Albert schooner, and to keep her in the harbour, where she could be worked by the Harbour Master's boats crew ; and in the event of her services being required for any special duty, a crew could be hired for the occasion ; and the saving effected by this means, would go far towards the salaries of pilots. ' The new Police establishment was a great change, and he would ask the Council to consent* to a large sum for its support ; he contemplated an augmentation to that force being yet necessary if roads and other improvements were undertaken, which he hoped would shortly be the case. The sum of ,£lO,OOO, or a little above it, would be required for the maintenance of the present standing force ; and although that might seem a startling item, yet he could easily fancy that in two or three years it would be acknowledged that the establishment of this force had been attended with much good to the colony. He had determined to add to the number of Law Officers in the Colony, by again establishing the office of Crown Prosecutor. It was better to revert to the old system, than, leave the prosecutions in the hands of individuals, which course he thought did not tend to secure the ends of justice. In some of the local courts, the fees would not, as heretofore, go to the officers, but they should be paid competent salaries for their services. This alteration was most desirable. Under the head of Police Magistrates, he proposed to make several alterations ; he thought it would be wise to establish a class of administrate rs of justice throughout the country. These men should be highly qualified and well educated individuals; such as would command the respect of the natives in their respective districts. If he had his own will, he should make such officers resident magistrates, Collectors of Customs, Land Registrars, and the present officers should act as deputies to them. The control of districts would in this way be concentrated, and directed by one mind well qualified for the responsibility. Among the miscellaneous items would he found a sum set apart for provision for native chiefs arriving at Auckland. From time. to time there will be visitors of this kind, some of whom had done service to the Government, and it would be ungenerous not to make provision for their comfort ; besides such conduct towards them would have a very beneficial influence. A gaol at Nelson was required ; at present there was no proper place for the confinement of criminals. Four hospitals were intended to be erected, two of which would be for natives, and two for Europeans and natives. One was to be at Auckland, one at Wellington, one at Taranaki, and one at Wanganui. He intended that one should also be put up at Rotorua, in the vicinity of the hot springs, but at present that was impracticable. This was a great and good undertaking, and one which the country would never repent having sanctioned. The council would observe, that the Protectorate of Aborigines had been abolished. There had been a great annual expense attending this department, without the appearance of any commensurate good result. He could not help thinking that £2000 a year would be more advantageously laid out on hospitals and other establishments for native benefit. A Native Secretary had been appointed at .£3OO a year, and an Interpreter was attached to his office. The resident district officers would have the natives under iheir jurisdiction, and would be required to furnish periodical reports concerning their condition. The natives were desirous that such a class of officers should be appointed, to whom they might refer their matters of difference for arbitration or adjudication. Natives in the north of the island have already made a request for the appointment of such an officer. In conclusion, he would remark that the Council bad no right, as hitherto had been done, to vote the sums which had already been voted by Parliament for specific salaries in the Colony. All power the Council had over these items was, that they might add to their amount if they deemed them too low, and if they considered them to be too high, why it would be proper to recommend their reduction. Council adjourned till Monday at fcsro o'clock.

Monday, October, 26, 1846. Present — His Excellency the Governor, Colonial Secretary, Attorney General, Colonial Treasurer, and W. Donnelly, A. Domett, and A. Kennedy, Esqrs. 'The Governor laid on the table one of the returns moved for by Mr. Kennedy. On the motion of Mr. Domett, the Administration of Justice Bill was read a first time. Appropriation Bill. The Colonial Treasurer moved the first rea*

(ling of the Appropriation Bill, aiad that the standing orders should be suspended for the second reading. The bill was then read a first time, and upon the second reading. Mr. Kennedy observed, that upon examination of the Estimates, he found that they were not satisfactorily classified ; it would have been much better had the several sums been distinguished according to the respective sources from which they are derived. The (particular items which were to be defrayed from the Parliamentary Grant, should have been specified; and the probable expenditure of the Northern wculd have 'been better kept separate from the Southern division. But, as the Estimates now stood, he felt certain that the same misconception would arise as had been usual on former occasions. Upon deducting the general expences of the northern part of the island, from the total sum estimated for the colony, which amounted to £40,959 95., he found that there stood for Auckland £13,944 ls'9d; and for the Bay of Islands and Hokianga £351 ss. making a total v for the northern district of £14,195 6s 9d .including the item of £1,000 intended for an Hospital. The amount which appeared under the head of" Miscellaneous," he did not properly understand, but he had set down £2,500 of that item for 'the north, which he hadincluded in the gross am&unt. It would have been very desirable for His Excellency to have submitted to the Council an estimate of the pro■bable revenue in connection with that of the •expenditure. He, Mr. Kennedy, had made a calculation of what the revenue would "be for this year, and Jie found that for the northern district it would amount to £15,500; -which would leave a surplus of £1,204 13* 3rf M over the estimated expenditure. He had not taken into account any portion of the Parliamentary Grant in his calculation ; for the revenue of 'this part of -the island, would of itself do more >than cover the <proposed expenditure. In the. Estimates, no amount had been set apart for •roads and bridges, or other 'purposes of^public improvement. With the exception of the (Hospital, the great 'burthen of the estimate was to provide for the salaries of the officers of Government. He hoped that his Excellency would see the necessity of making provision for-the opening up of roads, and the construction of bridges. The northern settlers had large. claims upon the Home Government for suclbimprovements ; and he trusted, 1 that out of •the £30,000 placed at the disposal of the Governor by the British Parliament, His Excellency would appropriate a sum .competent to commence public works of this nature, which would be the means, he was convinced, of decreasing the^revenue within the next year, to £30,000. The Governor, in reply to Mr. Kennedy's observations, remarked, that he did not' think •it at all advisable to separate the expenditure of the- two districts, and arrange them under different heads, -as had been proposed by the honorable member. He, the Governor, had chosen this mode of arrangement, in order to place fheitems in with each other, so that when viewed side by side, any uneaual division of them would be more easily detected. This was, in his opinion, the best way to classify the -various amounts ; but if the Council j were disposed to have expenses of the two divisions separated, they could do so if they. thought proper ; but he would recommend ! that no such step should be taken at present. He, the Governor, would object to the honour- i able member's proposal concerning the Parlia- ! mentary Grant. — Nearly all of the -establish- j 'inents at Auckland were provided for from that source ; and justice should be done to ■ the other portions of the colony, bysproviding out of the local general funds for the legitimate •expenses of their .government; and he con- > tended, thatif all the advantages of the specific yearly grant were < enjoyed by the northern -district, then the inhabitants should act with liberality, and share in the expenses of the South. Viewing the general expenses ofthe ■ colony in this light, it was evident that upon that principle, the-honourable member's esti-' mate -of the expenditure was erroneous ; and with regard to his calculations respecting the probable revenue of the year., he was also in error ; for he, the Governor, believed that the revenue of the northern district -for the present year, would exceed the sum computed by the hon. member for Auckland. With respect to the claims setup by the hon. member for the settlers of this district, no very great amount, he believed, was owing to the colony. The Lords of the Treasury had been requiring him, the Governor, to refund a sum amounting to £13,000, or £14,000, which they had advanced for emigration ; and," on the other hand, he was now called upon by the honourable member for Auckland to satisfy certain claims of the sejttlers upon the Home Government. He was therefore placed in the position of a judge between the two classes of claimants ; and it appeared to him that the amount of proceeds of land sales, which should have been properly set apart for emigration, and making of roads, had been expended for

other purposes in the colony, and therefore the reason for complaint was considerably lessened. The next point alluded to, was that no sura had been set apart for roads and bridges. And this might certainly appear, at first sight, to be a most glaring omission- but, not knowing what would be <the excess of revenue over the expenditure, he was unable to form any just estimate of the sura he could a^pply to . those purposes. He believed with the hoa. member, that the opening up of roads would do much good ; and he would go so far as to say that»he believed.it to be the'bounden duty of the Home, as well as of the Local Government, to open up the country, and thus bestow upon the natives a 'benefit in some measure commensurate withithe advantages which must accrue to Great Britain from the acquisition of such an important addition to her dominions. The natives themselves would be useful auxi- ! liaries in making roads, and while thus engaged, would certainly improve their condition. They would be taught the advantage of working in masses.; they would see and become acquainted with the use of agricultural implements ; they would receive money in payment for their labour, the spending of which would i bring them into Intercourse with our towns, j where they would become acquainted with cii vilized habits and customs ; instead of spending their money for arms and ammunition, they would lay it out on those agricultural implements, the use of which they had learned ; and in addition to this, their capabilities as labourers would be ascertained ; and from their being employed at Wellington upon public works, it was already discovered that they were by no means inferior to other men in this respect. In fact, the outlay of a few thousand pounds upon these objects would be productive of incalculable good. It would, in all probability, supersede the necessity df still greater outlay hereafter, by preventing quarrels and disturbances which could not be quelled without great expense. It would tend to the security of life and property, and avert from the 'community the multitudinous evils which idleness ever entails, by bringing the two races into closer and more familiar intercourse \/ith each other, and by affording the Natives .permanent and profitable employment. Mr. Donnelly agreed with every word that had fallen from his Excellency concerning the Parliamentary grant ; and also with the remarks of *the hon. member, Mr. 'Kennedy, respecting the great necessity for the formation of roads and 'bridges ; but he questioned whether the colony had any just claim upon the Home Crovernment for assistance in such ob- | jects. In the early stages of the colony, a very large sum of money had .been raised by the sales of Jand, and a certain portioe of that sum was legitimately belonging to end set apart for roads and bridges ; but it had been placed in 'bad hands, and was'badly taken care of. The Local Government, who had the handling of this money, were to blame, for they had applied it for different purposes than that for which it was intended. The greater portion of it had been verykvishly expended upon Protectors and Surveyors, and the benefit resulting to the colony from the services of the former department was not at all proportionate to the outlay it had-caused. However, the Natives had themselves strong claims upon the'-Government, and no greater boon could be conferred upon them than the construction^ roads and bridges 'throughout the colony. The Colonial Secretary, in -reply to what had been said by Mr. Kennedy upon the division of the expenses of the northern and southern districts, remarked, that the separate expenses of each district of the colony could always be distinctly ascertained from Returns such as had been that day laid upon the table. Mr. Oomett wished to make a few general observations on the Estimates before the council. There was one thing that he could not help observing, namely, the great discrepancy between the amount designed for Nelson and Taranaki, when compared with the estimated sums ifor Auckland and Wellington. The latter, place seemed to be very well taken care of, — and he would not complain of that, if the same solicitude was evinced for Nelson. It appeared that at Auckland there were 120 persons employed, 20 of whom were for the general government, and 100 for local duties ; while at Nelson the entire number of persons in the government employ were 13 ; so that Nelson stood to Auckland in the ratio ef 13 to 100. There was also an excessive difference between the expenses at the two places ; the entire sum for Nelson being put down at £1291; and yet with regard to the population, there existed no such corresponding difference. From returns that lately came under his notice he observed that, not long since, the Nelson population exceeded that of Auckland ; but doubtless, on account of the late military reinforcements in the North, the number of settlers might have increased, and, at present, he had no doubt that the population was in favour of Auckland. So long as the seat of Government remained here, there would be

an excess of expenditure required, but in no such degree as to warrant the disproportionate difference of thousands to hundreds in the | outlay. There had been no government funds expended at Nelson for public improvements, except £100 that had been granted by the present Governor ; yet, notwithstanding the apathy and neglect of the Government hitherto towards Nelson, the settlers were improving in their condition, and theL' agricultural pros.pects were good. Taranaki had laboured under the disadvantage of the want of a newspaper to advocate the claims.of the settlement; but he hoped that His Excellency would make a fair division of the funds at his disposal, and do -something also for New Plymouth, as well as Nelson, where improvements in the -shape of roads, &&, were as much required as at Auckland. He quite agreed with the council in the opinion that public improvements are indispensable.; and he considered that those •funds which should have been thus applied, but which had been paid to Protectors of Aborigines, were almost as bad as thrown away. With regard to the debt owing by the Government ito the Imperial Treasury, the settlers at the South had nothing to do with that-: the northern district was alone accountable for the debt.; and when the colony was separated., upon that district alone would fall the responsibility of refunding it. He would say no more upon the general features of the Estimates ; it would be his duty to procure, if possible, a fair share of the public funds for those settlements with which he was more immediately connected, but he feared that his <chance would be similar to that of a schoolboy scrambling ibr plums,, who had but one pair of hands against five of 'his companions. The Attorney General observed, that notwithstanding Taranaki had not the advantage of a newspaper, *yet he 'believed that the inhabitants had made more substantial progress as agriculturists than those of any other settlement of the same proportion in the colony. He thought the general manner dn which hon. members had complained of the estimates, was not the .proper method they should have taken ; some practical suggestion would have ' been more preferable. If it was clearly shown i that a reduction in the amount estimated for! -salaries was necessary, and that the portion (■cut off would be applied to other pur,poses, he would willingly support such ai • course being taken ; but sif 'the council, on { the other hand, >would be disposed to^vote for additional taxation, in order to carry {forward <the improvements which seemed so desirable,; .he would have ne objection t© wote in such 'behalf ; but it was the duty of hon. members i to do something specific, in order to apply a', practical remedy to that of which they<com-> plained. Mr. Domett -said, that the learned Attorney ' 'General had^overrated the prosperity of Taranaki. The fact was, the settlers were prevented from going on with their agricultural operations from the dearth of land >in their possession, and they were not able to acquire more by additional purchases. The Attorney 'General explained. What he had said was, that, when taken m ratio with other settlements, the settlers at Taranaki excelled with respect to their agricultural progress. The Governor said, the substance of the hon member's (Mr. ©omett) argument was just this, that Nelson and Taranaki had not been governed at all, and yet they were better off than any other settlement ! He would confess that he himself always thought that Nelson and Taranaki were the most prosperous settlements ; with one of them he was acquainted, but of the other he yet knew nothing by personal inspection ; but if it was shewn that a further sum was necessary for these settlements, he would most willingly assent to the increase. He wished to state to the council that, although there appeared on the estimates for the year 1847 a larger amount than had been set forth for the expenses of former years, yet no great difference should exist between the estimated and the actual expenditure. The lowest expenditure of former years he found to be £37,678, the sum estimated had been as low as £26,000 He would promise the council that the expenditure of this year should not exceed the amount estimated, his great desire would be to keep it rather under than above the sum granted. The council then went into committee upon the various items of the Estimates.