HOUSE OF COMMONS. DEBATE ON NEW ZEALAND. [From the New Zealander.]

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume II, Issue 61, 6 December 1845, Page 3

HOUSE OF COMMONS. DEBATE ON NEW ZEALAND. [From the New Zealander.]

In the adjourned debate in the House of Cora- --- mons (on the 18th June last) on the affairs of ... New Zealand, and Captain Grey's appoint- , ment to the Governorship of this Colony, Lord Howickthus expressed himself:— „- All the House could do was to tell the Government to choose ihe ablest man 1 for Governor, " one that would carry .the greatest authority. Let. them offer such a man any advantage to induce him to go to that colony ; t6H Kith that what was' * past was wrong, but leave him at entire liberty to act as he should find expedient when he arrived at the colony, — fetter him by no instructions — give him the largest and mosturiVeserved - powers, and let him act as he should find expedient. They were told that the present Governor of South Australia was to be sent to New Zealland. He had heard this with some regret,— not that he did not entertain a high opinion of Captain Grey : on the contrary, he thought hit administration in Soutli Australia did him the. greatest credit. But having there gained tha confidence of the colony, which was flourishing under his rule, be considered it a pity to disturb it. He thought, too, from his rank in the service to which he belonged, his age and station,, he could hardlj have that weight and authority necessary to enable a governor to do all that wa»

required by i\i€ititt of New Zealand. Hi* U&L would be no easy one. (Hear, hear.) He took it for granted the former absurd ordinances would -not be allowed to stand good; at the same time claims would have accrued under them whicn it Would be difficult to adjust, and they ought to ■end some one whose name would have weight •no" authority sufficient to piit' down frivolous and, unfounded claims He did not, therefore, tniirk'the selection of Captain Grey altogether a 'Wise one. One most essential thing in the new 'Governor wonld be, that he should have very little scruple in dismissing the highly paid and incapable servants of the government, by whose the present state 8t things had been produced. It was the abject weakness and pusillanimity of the police magistrates and commissioners which had brought on those evils, and he feared till a large proportion of those inefficients were removed the evils would not be The ditties of government required in an infant settlement might be discharged by the colon'sts fliemselves, who had a stake in its ■welfare, either gratuitously, for the honour such •functions conferred, or at all events for a small 'remuneration. The new Governor would reJuire large and unlimited powers to restore orer and the dominion of law in the colony. When that was accomplished, he hoped they would revert to the ancient and wise policy of their ancestors, and allow the colonists to govern themselves. (Hear, hear). No doubt they would commit some mistakes, perhaps serious ones ; but all experience was in favour of self-government. When he looked at what their ancestors accomplished, two centuries ago, under this, and contrasted with the results of attempting to govern from Downing-street a settlement at the antipodes, be must say experience was decidedly in favour of allowing a colony to govern itself. Lord John Russell told the house on the following evening, that if the war which had begun between the two races in New Zealand were much longer continued, England would ?hear news respecting it, which would make humanity shudder; and in reference to the Ministerial appointment of Captain Grey, -■aid — You will tell us that Captain Grey is to be the 'Govenor Of that colony. Now, I differ with those who say that a man of greater authority should be sent, a person who has had a longer experience in command. lam of opinion that it requires all the vigour of life to enable a man to undergo the fatigues that any Govenor of New. Zealand must expect. I am of opinion likewise that if you appointed a -man of the rank and name of Sir Henry Pottinger you could do no less than give him absolute authority and -despotic power ; and I would much rather have a person of inferior name, and of a character that has not stood so many years of experience, - assisted by the people of New Zealand themselves. (Hear, hear.) Of Captain Grey I know only the public conduct; — his reports with re•pect to the aborigines, and with respect to New South Wales and parts where he had been, were ■ucb as to induce me to ask him to accept the government of South Australia. -I do not believe that I saw him before he went, but certainly I knew nothing of him, and have never had -any private acquaintance with him; but in giv- • ing him the government of South Australia, I - gave him as difficult a problem in colonial go--vernment as could be committed to any man ; and I must say, after four or five years experience of his administration there, that he has -solved that problem with a degree of energy and success which I could hardly have expected from any man. (Hear, hear.) Such a man as that, if you give him good instructions to work with, may succeed in extricating the colony, and in gaining the confidence and good will both of settlers and aborigines. He has shown by a memoir of his that no man knows better in what manner the aboriginal natives should be trained to the usages of civilized countries. But when you send a man to undertake this government, it is necessary that you should send him with none of your petty squabbles to carry on (hear, hear) ; with no instructions to bait Colonel Wakefield on this subject, and somebody else on the other (a laugh) ; and that is what I sbould expect from the present Government, judging from former experience. — (Hear, hear). Sir James Graham then entered into some explanation respecting the future policy of ministers to be carried out in New Zealand ; expressed his concurrence in the opinion of Lord Howick, that the difficulties of the present state of this colony might be traced to the contentions respecting the proprietary rights of land, and the absence of all control over the lawless spirits now in the island ; and observed that, though he did not wish to inculpate Captain Fitzroy, in order to exculpate the government, yet that officer had sufficiently disobeyed Lord Stanley's instructions to justify his recall. Mr. Hope (Under-Secretary for the colonies) observed, as to the instructions to Captain Grey, that, considering the distance of the scene of operations, and the time that would elapse before he would be on the spot, government proposed to intimate to him their | decided opinion upon tie different subjects. , They disapproved of the financial course taken by Captain Fitzroy — that was one of the causes of his recall. Lord Stanley also disapproved of his late, proceedings on the sub- i ject of land ; that being directly inconsistent with the instructions given on the first proposal by Captain Fitzroy in March 1844. One of the grounds of his recall, also, was the course he had taken as to the militia bill : and another was, h's not having shown sufficient firmness and decision in proceedings with the natives. He likewise stated that Captain Grey would not go out bound by express orders .to re-impose the customs duties. He was not bound on any other subjects expressly, but would have directions from the Government to do' what was possible.

Sir Robert l?eel remarked tfcus, with respect to' a' representative government in New Zealand :— Tfavr, with' respect to the- 'future government of this colony. Looking at its distance; and the great difficulty of issuing orders from this country for Us government, I for one nm strongly inclined to think that representative government is suited for its condition. (Hear.) It has not the objections which might apply in a penal colony ; you have rescued New Zealand at any rate, from the evils attending penal establishments, I speak only of the general principles; I think there ought to be a form of government constituted for New Zealand, in connexion with those who are -immediately interested in its local prosperity, assigning to them a due weight and influence in the administration of affairs. In short, 1 cannot think what assignable interest this country can have in New Zealand, except in the promotion of its prosperity. Why, our connexion with it, depend upon it, must depend altogether upon that connection being a profitable one. (Hear, hear.) it is impossible, at the distance we are from the country, that we can seek any advantage in a connexion with New Zealand except that which may result from reciprocal interest, and above all, from the promotion of local prosperity, (hear, hear). At the same time, it isimpossible not to tee the great advantages of a representative government. Considering the distance of the settlements that are extended over the northern island, it would be no easy matter now to apply the principle of representative government accord ing to the construction we place upon it. I believe that by far the best plan would be the formation of municipal governments, with extensive powers of local taxation, and powers of meeting all local demands to be established in the first instance. In the opinion of Mr. Burke the forms of representative government in North America did grow directly out of those municipal institutions. I am inclined to think that the germ of representative governments ought to be municipal institutions, widening their spheres by degrees. Alluding to the suggestions of proprietary government, the right hon. baronet observed :—: — I do not think it would be wise to adopt the suggestion of the New Zealand Company, to make a proprietary government here. I believe the best form of government «vr ill be that (he Crown here should superintend the external regulations of that country, and that the local executive government should manage the internal affairs of the colony. Would you have three authorities established? Would you have the Crown and the Company each exercising control over the local government? This is a system of government, so untried and so anomalous, that I cannot think smcess would attend it. (Hear, hear). -I believe that a very -short interval would elapse before the local popular representative government would deny the authority of the New Zealand Company^ and would find it no easy matter to retain that authority. Therefore that system of proprietary government, which implies control over the local government, to be provided by the Crown, is one which I believe would be attended with no good result. Regarding the New Zealand Company, he said : — With regard tothe New Zealand Company, I thiiik it important that they should letain in full exercise the powers committed to them with regard to settlement and commerce. I believe that Company may be made a useful instrument of Government, not exercising any control over the local government, but as a great commercial company, acting on enlightened principles, and assisting the executive Government in devising means of emigration and employment for the surplus population of this country. (Hear, hear.) I do not despair that that relation will be-estab-lished between the Government and the-Com-pany; and, without committing any part- of the administration of the Government to them, they will exist as a Company acting in concert and harmony with the Government, as a useful instrument in promoting emigration. (Hear, hear.) Sir Robert then very feelingly alluded to the necessity of Governor 1 itzroy's removal from the government of New Zealand, and expressed bis warm approbation of Captain Grey's appointment, in the following terms.: — For the personal character of Captain Fitzroy I must avow I entertain a high respect, and for the difficulties of his position I must make great allowances (cheers) ; yet we have signified in the most formal and authoritative manner that of his conduct in the administration of the affairs of this colony we do not approve; and with reluctance, but in the performance of a necessary duty, we have removed him from a post which he undertook exclusively Irom the highest and most patriotic motives. We have-shown, therefore, in the first instance, no desire to consult i the feelings or interests of a friend, to the.prejudice of the interests of the colony. We have made, of contemplate, the immediate appointment of a successor. The policy of the appointment has been questioned by some ; but, I apprehend, the highest authority with regard to his qualifications must be the noble lord who selected that gentleman for the office he now>fills. And what is the character he gives of him? That one of the greatest difficulties of government which had to be solved was to be found in the position of South Australia, that for it he selected Captain Grey, and that Captain Grey entirely succeeded, and overcame difficulties which appeared insuperable, by his discretion, his energy, and his judgment. We propose to commit to Captain Grey the solution of these yet greater difficulties. It is objected that he is a young man. At any rate, he is five years older than be was when he undertook the difficulty which the noble lord felt to he so weighty. (Hear, hear.) He has bad the benefit of all the intervening experience which he has acquired in the attempt to solve that problem. (Hear.) But some gentlemen tell us that he is not ot high rank enough. As if those native chiefs did not attach much more importance to the past success and the character and energy of a man, than to the conventional rank which he may bold! (Hear, hear.) He holds the yank only of a captajn in her Majesty's army ; but he has been eminently successful in rescuing a colony from difficulty, and we select him for the command: The noble member for Sunderland

i may ask that we ought to hare taken « man of higher tank in the army; but mirely the true qualifications for this post are past success, and confidence in the character and judgment of the individual in question. (Hear, hear.) " But we have not had the benefit of personal communication with him. Why, I must say, that personal communication with governors' hitherto has not been very successful in enabling U9 to overcome the difficulties of the problem. The noble lord, I believe, had the opportunity of personal communication with Captain Hobson. [Lord J. Russell— 'No; Lord Normanbyhad."j Oh! the noble lord surely must not make these distinctions between Lord Normanby and himself. [Lord J. Russell — "I had no personal communication with him."] But the Secretary of State in that Government of which the noble lord was the organ in the House of Commons had. (Hear, hear.) He had also the opportunity of personal communication with Mr. Spain upon the duties of a land commissioner, and we had the opportunity of similar communication with Captain Fitzroy. Ido not mean to say that it may not be in many cases an advantage: but you have a governor administering the affairs of a colony comparatively near to this, and a man so eminently qualified as Captain Grey, a man who has studied the affairs of the colony, and has recently written upon the subject with the utmost judgment and good sense, I cannot think that the circumstance of his absence from this country constitutes any disqualification for the command. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord says he presumes we shall give him instructions to enter into personal Bquabbles with Colonel Wakefield; I must say I think this is a most unworthy sug gestion. (Cheers.) We shall give him the assu ranee of entire confidence; we shall entrust to him, so far as is consistent with the constitution and law of this country, an unfettered discretion, laying down, no doubt, the general principle by which we think he ought to be guided in the difficulty of issuing instructions at such a distance; under the circumstances in which that colony is placed, the discretion he will have will be unfettered by any particular instructions. (Hear, hear.)