ENGLISH NEWS. PARLIAMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. House of Commons, March 15.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume I, Issue 42, 26 July 1845, Page 3

ENGLISH NEWS. PARLIAMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. House of Commons, March 15.

Mr. G. W. Hope : I wish to call the attention of the house to a matter of very great importance. It will be in the recollection of the house that the other evening a charge was made against the noble lord who presides over the department to which f belong, arising out of his course of conduct towards the New Zealand Company. Tbe noble lord has been distinctly charged in this house with conduct which is not becoming either a public officer or a gentleman ; and a petition I find is in course of preparation, and persons of high character in the City have been solicited to sign it, imputing to the noble lord misconduct in regard to the New Zealand Company. I, therefore, think the house will agree with me, that it is not fair such a charge should be made, and yet not be brought forward, and an attempt made to substantiate it (cheers). Perceiving, however, from the notice which stands for Tuesday, that it is not the intention oi the New Zealand Company to bring forward and substantiate that charge before Easter, I am sure the house will feel that it is due to the position of the noble lord, as it would be only fair play to every Englishman, that an early opportunity should be afforded for the purpose of vindicatinghis character from such a charge (hear, hear). I shall, therefore, on Tuesday next, bring forward a motion for papers which shall raise the* question and enable the New Zealand Company to substantiate their charge, if it be in their power to do so. Mr. AaiiiONßY was perfectly willing to re • peat the charge he had made against Lonl Stanley on Tuesday, but did not mean to touch the question of the New Zealand Company on that occasion. Lord Howick : Whatever may be the papers

"■produced by the honorable member for South- - ampton (Mr. G. W. Hope), I hope he will not think it necessary to raise the whole question of ' the policy pursued by the Government towards nhe colony of New Zealand. I hope at a later ■ period of the session, when all the papers shall ' nave been produced, and the members shall have had an opportunity of reading them, the New - Zealand question will be fully and fairly dis- < cussed. Mr. Mangles having been the party who, • in the first instance, and in the strongest terms, expressed his opinion with respect to the con- - duct of the noble lord at the head of the Colonial office, was ready to substantiate any charge he had brought a^ ainst Lord Stanley, but would not allow the honourable gentleman (Mr. Hope) to dictate to him the manner in which he should discharge his duty in that house. Mr.- Hume- wished the Under- Secretary of the Colonies to state specifically the charge ' which had been made against the noble lord. Mr. G. W. Hope: The charge made' l understand to be this : that the noble lord entered into -what was stated to have been an agreement with * the New Zealand Company ; that, having so * done, he undertook to give certain instructions to the Governor of New Zealand, and that he gave one set of instructions to the New Zealand Company and another set of instructions to the ' Governor of New Zealand inconsistent with the other instructions : so that, on his arrival in the colony" Captain Fitzroy found himself with instructions which could not enable him to carry out the arrangement made by the noble lord with the company. Mr. Mangles : If the honourable gentleman thinks that "there is any disposition on the part - of the New Zealand Company, or those who represent that body, to shrink from any charge they have made against the Colonial Office in general, or" Lofd Stanley in particular, he is exceedingly mistaken (hear, hear). The honourable Under Secretary for the Colonies need be ■under no apprehension that he will not have the opportunity fully to discuss the whole charge. As to the petition to which he had said signatures have been solicited in the City, he may depend upon it the great merchants and bankers there are not parties likely to be induced to sign a petition against the Colonial or any other .public Department without being thoroughly > convinced of the justice of their case (hear, hear). 'If the honourable Under Secretary supeposes that the Colonial Office stands well with 'the country, he labours under a delusion. That • office is reprobated by the whole country (" hear, hear," and " Oh ! Oh !"). I repeat it— the Colonial Office is held to be the plague and nuisance of the country ! and I believe the honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. Hope) and the noble lord at the head of the office are the only persons who do not hold that opinion (" hear," -and "Oh-). After a few words from Sir R. Inglis on the necessity of Mr. Hope's bringing forward his motion ma shape to elicit the opinion of the house — Sir R. Peel said : After the discussion the other -night, few gentlemen will doubt that there -would be, on the part of my noble friend at the head of the -Colonial Department and his colleagues, an earnest desire that the sense of the house should be taken in some form or other with respect to the policy he has pursued in relation to New Zealand and the New Zealand Company ; and if any gentleman did entertain a doubt,* the expressions used to-night must have altogether removed it from his mind (hear, hear). The honourable member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles), a member, I believe, of the New Zealand Company, has declared that the Colonial Department is viewed by the commercial interests of this country as a pest and nuisance : and the honourable gentleman must feel, lam suve, that -he is -oinder an obligation to bring forward a charge -of that kind. A distinct charge has been brought against Lord Stanley, implying a want of faith in his dealings with the New Zealand Company. It was brought forward towards the close of the debate the other night, after both my honourable friend (Mr. HopeJ and I had addressed the house. Now, my noble friend (Lord Stanley) is most anxious that we should not separate for the holidays without his having an opportunity of distinctly explaining his conduct to the house, and, by referring to the documents, of showing, as I think he can conclusively show, that this accusation of a want of good faith in his transactions with the New Zealand Company is -without foundation (cheers). I don't apprehend that my honourable friend (Mr. Hope) would propose on Tnesday next to call on the house for any expression of opinion ; but as the representative of my noble friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, be is -most anxious on a matter not immediately or necessarily provoking a discussion on the general policy of the department, but in respect of which hie personal conduot and good faith have been called in question, not to allow the house to separate without giving some explanation of that particular point {loud cheers) . Mr. Agmonby admitted the fairness of the coarse suggested : but thought he had reason to complain that the honourable Uunder-Secre-tary had not given private notice to himself and other members connected with the New Zealand Company that he intended to bring this matter

forward. He had merely stated the circumstance j to the honourable member for Gulidford fiVe minutes before behind the Speakers-'s chair. Parliamentary usage and gentlemanly courtesy required longer notice than this. If he (Mr. Aglionby) rightly understood the honourable gentleman the Colonial Under-Sccretary, it was not his object immediately to bring before the house for discussion -and division the whole question of the complaints of the New Zealand Company against the Colonial Office and their demand for reparation and redress, but to confine himself to the case of Lord Stanley. The Company, however, were not -to be "dragged into discussion when and in what way that honourable gentleman might please (hear, hear). For weeks past a .petition had been framing with a view to bring before the house the Whole case of the New Zealand Company, but it required great consideration as to the best way of shaping the application to the justice of the house and the Government ; it had been modelled and remodelled to make it as perfect *as possible, 'and there was some doubt whether it would be ready to be presented before Easter. "Until then, it would be hopeless to suppose that honourable members would make themselves acquainted with the facts, by mastering the whole of the large blue-book on the table. He feared, if they were dragged prematurely into the sub • ject, the strong primd facie feeling, which it was right and natural should exist in favour of any department of the Government, would not be met by any clear knowledge of facts, showing how the Company had been thwarted in its efforts by the Colonial Office. He did believe, that if the right honorable baronet (Sir R. Peel) saw all the circumstances of the case, and the justice of the claims of the Company, with the injuries they had sustained in disappointed expectations, then an ultimate appeal to the house, as far as the "Company was concerned, might 'be dispensed with ; and it was underthis impression he -(Mr. Aglionby) spoke as he did. He had not the slightest objection to state what his charge was. In the late debate there was a contention between the honorable gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies (Mr. G. W. Hope) and the honorable member for Liskeard (Mr. C. Buller), on the subject of striking out the word " agreement" and inserting I the word " instructions." He {Mr. Aglionby) had felt an objection to the word "instructions," in the plural, not knowing how it might be evaded, or what it might include. i For the facts were these : — After much negotiation with the Colonial Office, a very angry and hostile letter, which was written on the part of the New Zealand Company, exposing what they called the misconduct of the Colonial Office, was agreed to be withdrawn. After many discussions on terms, Lord Stanley stated that lie could not , offer his terms ; he could not condescend to originate a proposal ; but that the Company had better make their own proposal, sending it first in draft (and not officially) to his lordship, that he might point out any particulars to which he should not be able to assent. This was done, and alterations were made, and the draft was settled by the -Colonial Office, though he (Mr. Aglionby) did not "know whether by Lord Stanley himself. The-Compaay had this agreement copied and sent in exactly as they had received it, and Lord Stanley promised to send out instructions to Governor Fitzßoy, founded on that document. Its terms were many times discussed with that gentleman ; he (Mr. Aglionby) met Captain Fitzroy at the Colonial Office, in the presence of Lord Stanley, and with other of the New Zealand Company's Directors. He (Mr. Aglionby) never was informed during the whole of these discussions that any other letter had passed upon the subject of that agreement (as he would call it) than the letter of the honourable gentleman (Mr. Hope) of the 12th of May, 1843, printed in the report, 'though every item had been carefully considered and discussed between the Company and Lord Stanley. Would it be believed that, during all these meetings, Lord Stanley had in his possession a letter from Captain Fitzßoy, expiessing doubts as to the construction of the letter of the 1 2th of May, 1843, and had written to the captain? Sir R. Peel thought the honourable and learned member might state what his charge was, without reasoning upon it ''(hear, hear). ' Mr. Aglionby agreed, and -would avoid doing so. The letter of Captain Fitzßoy never made known to the Company, nor the answer of Lord Stanley, giving his construction of the document referred to. He (Mr. Aglionby) met Captain Fitzßoy from time to time for weeks, saw him on board ship, took leave of him with the best wishes for his prosperity ; but never, during all that time, was this corres- f pondence communicated. It was not disclosed until December, six months after he had sailed. How "those letters could have been kept secret by Captain .Fitzßoy, he (Mr. Aglionby) did not understand. When at last produced, there was an erasure at the top, and the word " confidential" appeared to have been upon it. The charge, then, was this — that in such a negotiation good faith required that all which passed on the subject of discussion should be made known to the parties concerned (hear, hear). The honourable gentleman the Under-Secretary (Mr. Hope) had argued, that Lord Stanley's second letter, which was thus concealed, was not inconsistent j with the letter which was disclosed; he (Mr.

Aglionby) would venture' to say, lie should show to every thinking man on Tuesday that it was ; but, be it so or not, there ought to have been no private letters/letters not communicated, but kept secret. 'Such an act of duplicity would prevent his ever treating with Lord Stanley again upon any subject, unless some security could be given fhat good faith would be kepy (hear, hear). Mr. Hulme thought the personal charge against Lord Stanley should be separated from the general charge against the department. Many might think, with himself, that the Colonial Department was not in the power of any single human being to conduct ; that was a very distinct subject from the personal charge of misconduct against the noble lord. Sir R. Peel said it was essential that progress should be made before Easter in the financial measures before the house. Lord J. Russell : I entirely agree with the honourable member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) in this — that whatever be the day selected, we should endeavour to separate any personal charge which there maybe against the noble lord from another question— the question of the 'government of New Zealand (hear, hear). ~I cannot wonder that the noble lord should wish that the charge made against him of breach of faith with respect to an engagement of any kind should be cleared, and every explanation given which may have to be offered on his part. As to the result of that debate, there is no doubt, as the honorable member for Oxford .(Sir R. •Inglis) has said, that if it comes to a division in this house tliere will be a large majority in favour of fhe ridDle'lord ; but there is another question, and a most important one, upon which I hope the house will not look as merely confined to the character or honour or 1 immediate interests of the Administration-"-it is the question of the government of this important colony. I believe that New' Zealand, if its resources are properly cultivated, and if it is rightly governed, is dc stined to'have a great influence on that part of the world. 1 believe that the 18,000 or 20,000 Englishmen who are there tire destined in all probability to be the progenitors of the governors of a great part of that hemisphere (hear, hear.) But if this question is of great importance, it is fit that we should discuss it, if possible, separately from all personal questions. For my part, I really have not formed an opinion, whether the New Zealand Company are right in bringing any charge against Lord Stanley, or whether the noble lord is right in saying that there is no foundation whatever for the charge ; but of this I feel very -well convinced, that the tone used by the Colonial Office in writing to the New Zealand Company, and by the New Zealand Company m writing to the noble lord, is far too angry and controversial for a correspondence between a department of -the Government and a public company{hear, hear). Whatever question there may be, therefore, between the New Zealand' Company and the noble lord, if the controversy is to be continued in the same spirit in this house in which the letters have been written which are published, that' ought to be made a separate discussion ■; and I hope that^at some other time we may-come in the -calmest manner to the consideration of the j instructions which have been framed for the; guidance of Governor Fitzroy, and to discussing whether those instructions were judicious, and whether the conduct of that Governor is. such as likely to promote harmony, and tend to the welfare of the colony. Without wishing to. pron ounce an opinion as to the propriety of 1 bringing on the personal question, I do wish to put in this word on the part of the public (hear, hear), that the questions may be kept separate, and that the house may endeavour to rescue the' important colony of New Zealand from the distress and misfortune in which it is at present involved (cheers). If it should appear in the course of the discussion that any proceedings of mine shall be liable to any part of the blame, I am ready to bear that blame (hear, hear) ; only let us, if possible, lay down some rule for the future t>y which that colony may have hope of prosperity (cheers.) Mr. G. W. Hope stated that if he found it impossible to bring on the motion on Tuesday, he would take Thursday.