THE MINISTERIAL RESOLUTION.

New Zealander, Volume XVIII, Issue 1712, 7 August 1862, Page 1

THE MINISTERIAL RESOLUTION.

(From the "Advertiser," July 26 and 29.) Our leader of to-day was written and in type before avo saw the resolution which tho Colonial Secretary moved yesterday in the House. Tho resolution —carefully, timidly, aud somewhat vaguely drawn up—was as follows: " That this House disclaims, on the part of the Colony, the exclusive responsibility of tho cost of educating, civilizing, and governing tho Native race, while it equally disclaims liability for the principal share of the cost of suppressing insurrections of a people over whom the Imperial Government has never practically established authority, it will at all times cheerfully recognize its duty to co-ope-rate to tho extent of its ability and means with Great Britain for tho attainment of these objects, so essential to the welfare of the Colony ; and in conformity with these views it is of opinion that the interests of the Imperial Government and of the Natives themselves as well as of the Colony, require that (reserving to. the Governor both the initiation and the decision of questions where Imperial interests are concerned), the ordinary conduct of Native affairs should bo placed under tho administration of Responsible Ministers." The debato which followed was animated and interesting, and a report of it will appear in our next. We have scarcely time to-day to refer to it in the manner it deserves. After Messrs. Fox, Fitzgerald, Moorehouse, Colenso, O'Neill and Watt had spoken, tho debato Avas adjourned until 7 o'clock. At that hour tho House re-assembled, when Mr. Jollie commenced tho adjourned debate. He objected to the Colony being now called upon to assume a responsibility which it had never assumed, and which it was not now in a position to bear. With regard to Taranaki, he considered its present state a disgrace to tho British name, aud a standing menace to tho colonists of the North Island. He took, wo were glad to find, the very same view of tho question we have taken in our leader, i.e., " give tho Governor what funds he requires to carry out his own plans, and let him have the whole responsibility of it." Mr. WELD followed. Ho considered that for the House to take tlie whole responsibility

of carrying out British, Sovereignty in this country, would be' an overwhelming misfortune alike to settlers and natives. Give the Imperial Government the power to do this—and where the power was, there must rest the responsibility. He would not fetter the Governor in any way, nor keep up a sham that answered no useful purpose. He, should oppose the motion. Mr. GILLIES, the representative of onefifth of the entire Colony, would.be neglecting his duty to remain silent, but he desired not to speak as the representative of one portion of the Colony, but as a member of a House which represented the whole of New Zealand, i He was not prepared to turn out the present Ministry, nor did he believe that any other members were. He was hot a party man, and never had been. The position which the Ministry had taken up was an undefined and an undefinable position, for it was admitted that what were Imperial questions could not be defined. He objected to being led blindfold into such an undefinable responsibility. The British Government were bound to retain the responsibility of governing the Natives in their own hands. We had never accepted, as Mr. Fitzgerald would have us to believe, the trusteeship of the Native race. Our proper course is to disclaim responsibility in Native affairs, and to contribute our utmost towards the civilization of the Natives. He would trust the funds required to the Governor, absolutely and unconditionally, and not call in question the policy which he might carry out with them. He would not find fault with that policy, and he believed that any policy would be successful in the hands of such a man. The House had it in its power to preserve the colony as a whole, but if so, it must adopt a far different course to that indicated by Ministers. The speech of Mr. Gillies was a most able one, arid at its conclusion, he was loudly cheered. Mr. BELL regretted that Mr. Richmond was not present. He thought the House was frightening itself with a bugbear which really did I not exist. He failed to see any reason why we should fall back upon the old irresponsible Native Department. He differed with thp concluding portion of the resolution, but it ought not to be met by a direct negative. Let us have the counter proposition. He doubted whether any member of the House now could draw the line between what were, and what were not Native affairs, which even the mind of William Richmond had failed to do. There was not a question which affected Native affairs Avhich did not affect the colonists' affairs also. There was no use in pretending to exercise what they could not get, complete responsibility; but they were bound to give advice upon Native questions when European interests were at stake. We owed the most solemn duty to the settlers of Taranaki, not to give up our right to look after their interests; no, not even to Sir George Grey. Major RICHARDSON said if the resolution was carried, it would put it out of the power of the House to tell Sir George Grey when to strike and when to stay his hand. The resolution was most vague—a definition was required of what were Imperial interests. The Waitangi Treaty was the leven which leavened the whole lump, the bitter fruits Of which both the colonists and Maories were now tasting. Ministerial responsibility was utterly impossible in Native affairs. If His Excellency the Governor can keep from his Ministers any information which he thought might prejudice the public service, there might be the responsibility, but there would not be the power. He would give the fullest powers to the Governor, and the largest funds to carry out his plans for the better government of the Natives, but he would not assume any of the responsibility. The speech of Mr. Atkinson, which followed, though somewhat disjointed, and, apparently contradictory, was, in many respects, a remarkable one. We gathered from it that, in His Excellency's opinion, the Ministry were responsible for Taranaki affairs. It seems that the Taranaki members, on seeing that there was not one word, or the slightest allusion, in the speech with reference to that ill-fated province, had waited upon Sir G. Grey, and, from his remarks, they were led to infer that he considerd the Taranaki question was not on Imperial question, but one with which it was the province of the Ministry and that House to deal. " But if," said the hon. member, " the Taranaki was not an Imperial question, he was at a loss to conceive what was." [An explanation vouchsafed by Mr. Fox threw no more light upon it than to make the visible.] He could not understand what was the real position of Ministers, nor what were Native and what Imperial questions. The resolution was vague, and, in his opinion, would tend to hamper the action of His Excellency. If confidence was to be restored, it would be by Sir George Grey, and by men selected by him for this purpose and. for no other purpose. The reports laid on the table relative to Native affairs were most painful, and exhibited a state of things which required to be managed by one man, and by him only. Mr. J. C. RICHMOND then made an argumentative speech in opposition to the resolution, which he thought should not be mot by a direct negative. On the motion of Mr. Ward, the debate was adjourned until 12 o'clock on Monday next.

We cannot find room for even a brief sketch of tho speeches made yesterday in the House for and against the Ministerial preposition; the following is only a bare outline. Tho adjourned debato was opened by the Postmaster-General. He defended the course taken by Ministers, and said that the relations existing between them and the Governor were such as the resolution passed by the House last session indicated and justified. Tho resolution now before the House met each of the extreme parties—those who said there should be full Ministerial responsibility, and those who said there should be none—-half-way. He concluded his speech in picturing the disagreeable results which would follow if the resolution was rejected, and if tho irresponsible relations which formerly existed between the Governor and his advisers on Native policy were to bo again revived. i

Mr. STAFFORD recognised to tho fullest extent the complicated question with which thoy had to deal, and he did not consider that it waa a time to. criticise tbia or that native jwlioyi, U vaa not "what w«s to be done, or

how,, but who was to do jt< : . The hoa, g«te -.. tlemau that.; had , beca made with,,referee .$© hjinself.aiid his &&*, '••< leagues when %y sety tb,a charges brpugh* against them. - : , With reganjlto the House, It was ono capable of being twisted to suit any purpose,, and, Z while.>.. recommend- th ing a movement, it did not indicate which, way to go. It had much surprised Mm that no hpii, member |'saic| anything of JkoS resolution v 'bu't j Ministers, - while iiihad JtafafcV freely criticised and condemned on; the opporfa site of .the'.House,, He considerable length upon the Colonial #ecjcs- - , definition of i . imperial and * colonial questions.. No principle* would have his support , which would j rid the, G/Oveijnor: ;o£i» accountability, to that gentleman, at considerable length, commented■ j severely upon t&e conduct of ;3M[mistors, native policy,'and the present George Grey. lie doncludod.an abje ; aii<k* eloquent. speech by reiterating his dissent. from, the! toirmp of, the resolution before the • House. ' , . :• ~ Dr. FEATHi^STpNthenaddreased.*he t . House at some length,, and with-great; abjlijjf« If the ministerial resolution was .not, carped," they bugbt to resigntheir, seats, though hfa for one, regretted topt his'hop., friend had ./»*,; readily fallen into tpe'trap so cleverly set &)& L him by the hon. member,for;*Cheviot..(Hr^; •• Wield), In attempting to define the relations between the Governor and .his Ministers in native affairs, he had attempted an impossibility. No sucK task, hai ever been, at-ji tempted by any BKnistrybefore, here,,or:.ih • England. The responsibility of Ministers, in. the mother; country wasj notsanctioned hy law., but was the result of a tacit understanding between the Crown and Parliament. K : thp relations there had there was a greater reason why be so in a colony—the Crown Being sible to ho but a/colonial Gjoyenftr being T responsible to the ImperiarauthOntiefiii;" .'s&',' difficulty to define greater in a colony inhabited bya hativelrace,'' just emerging from barbarism!; and hence lie' regretted that, at the invitation, of the'member for Cheviot, Mt. Foi' shoutd" have ' attempted so childish, so utter, an ' In 1856 he '(fyXSEj while native affairs were withdrawn from tfyeT administration of responsible | ministers; res-, ponsible government was a sham' and a delu-; siori. He had maintained, thai'it wouMpe, sheer madness to entrust native affairs, to a Governor who,'just arriving '.in the"country,.' must be ignorant .of the whole subject \ and if native affairs withdrawn consideration' of thp House, * there t was. pjjT necessity "for Ministers to make conversant with them; and how, under' thjq" c . system, native affairs had and native interests neglected, the" testimony of the late' Governor and hisTtfi-"""' nisters. After, praising Archdeacon"Hadfield, for recommending native aftpirsta D(£ placed under the administration Of responsibly r ." advisers—painting' in Claude colours'the,', state of the natives when Sjr Georgiai' ; Grey r "; 1 eft the colony, and j in\ colours aa. b lack * as\ midnight their state On his return again,to. the colony—he appealed. W the senie* 1 of' generosity and of justice of 1 Wmbera not .to abandon Sir George Grey,'who had sacrificed' somuch for thd colony, but to give hjra the* assistance of responsible ministers to conduct' native affairs. 1 • f ; * " Ty u -7>" v -'"t. « r 1 " *" { '"

Mr. CRAOROFT WILSON liftd; b«|iy ( ' struck dumb by the eloquent declamation''of the last speaker, which he thought contained ; three fallacies. The first was ill supposing;/ that Sir George Grey needed advice; Wo' second was, that if they rejected the rejoin- " tion he would be prohibited from 'asking ifcf' ; and the third was* in" supposing the Maories to be British subjects. He thought that"the' highest compliment they could'-' Excellency was to ask him to take all power relative'to native affairs into his" r bwn" handlii" He said his constituents were grieved fl&'jffiM® heart's core when they thought of the state J their fellow-settlers, in Taranaki were in, and: they were convinced that one man, with'lin-"' divided power and was wKat ; was required to remedy the mischief they * deploredi They wished the (^yerhbr'to' exercise his unfettered discretion- on 'Maori*'-. questions, and to see in His ExceDehcy'*' speech, in opening the "next session, the' 1 words—" Taranaki avenged If those words were in the'next speech wrtfi which His Excellency favoured' the* Housey h.is constituents would be perfectly" satisfied,' 5 Mr. CARLETOK said, therja wer^.'^^ v parties inthe House, and division the resolution WOuld not be'faithful represent tation of the "views. of tfiose a v . After.. giving the history of. the secure', responsible government''by 'the' lie' expressed his 1 conviction, that' if of the Stafford Ministry of tSSB : bidbeetf allowed to run its "natural the. Affi, which was the keystone of the arch had ! noi been disallowed—the unhappy war,' ai\a. ths. unhappy divisions have obviated.' remedy which Fitzgerald suggestod7^ u stopn{rig r '&e;«ip~\'' lies"—was one Which" responsible, ment Was supposed to render'unne6esfeary; and-., it was a remedy that could' hot be for; it had been found, in practjee, that could not succeed in stopping the supplies in: a paltry Provincial Council..'; Tlie' reniedfj' moreover, would be worse than'the disease,' He objected to the parthership imolwd resolution, unless provision were made it&, eventual dissolution. Be objected.'-."to : the.' resolution, also, because the medium cpbrge,' it suggested implied a' divided He would waive' theserobjections 'to give, Ministers an opportunity of putting, selves rights haying goneSvto'ng owing to no. fault of their own. ■•••'""'■' , ' ! " * Mr. DOMETT the idea, of ' the ( Home Government permitting the House to. take the whole of native into its hands. He did not'so much 6 to the resolution itself, as to the arguments, that had been used; ih favour of it. ' TL?, \ '.' - Mr! WATT would be equally sorry the resolution carried, and to see the Ministry" defeated upon it, and would, were'he'not 6c>; young a member, to get oyer the. move the previous question.' He said' jthe■ Ministry was not the same Ministrythat was in office at the close of .the last session,and'ne; thought some information slibuld havl vouchsafed why Mr. Mantcll, whose vote had, put the Ministry in office, haT

The debate was resumed at 7 o'clock. Mr. CARTER labored under great difficulty when he considered the eloquent manner in which the subject before the House had beer, spoken to by various hon. members; but representing, as he did, a constituency immediately interested in the matter, he could not consent to give a silent vote. He .some, remarks- which had fallen from the hon. member for Timaru, (Mr. Jollie) to the effect that individual Europeans who went to reside amongst the natives, did SO at their own peril, and that he (Mr. Jollie) had no sympathy with them. As regaaded the resolution, he would, for his own part, like to have seen something more definite, and he thought that Ministers should have given some clearer exposition as to military affairs in the colony. He believed that the money question had a great deal to do' with the resolution j more, in fact, that hon. members admitted. In the event of this resolution not being passed, he considered that the colony would be placed in a very awkward position. There were in that House three different parties, each recommending different courses. He made allusion to the time when the members of that House clamored for ministerial responsibility, and to the indignation with which the information was received by-them when a Bill was introduced into the House of Commons taking from the colony all responsibility in native affairs. He reverted to the time when they had an irresponsible Government, and when the funds of the Native Department were expended in a wasteful and extravagant manner. He had heard members from the South say that were willing to vote large sums of money, but without ministerial resposibility. This would be saying to the Governor, in effect, " We expect you to do all the work yourself." If that House now neglected to bring into subjection the native race, they would lose a grand opportunity, such a one as might never occur again. The natives were just regaining confidence, and if a resolution of the Ministry in whom they had that confidence were rejected, what would they think? The hon. gentleman concluded his speech by expressing his intention to support the resolution. Mr. CURTIS moved the previous question, which was seconded by Major RICHMOND; Mr. J. WILLIAMSON rose and delivered an able and logical speech in support of the motion. He said he had patiently waited for some hon. member to propose an amendment, but nothing of the sort had been done. He freely criticised the speech of Mr. Stafford, and also the conduct of that gentleman upon previous occasions. He referred to the opinion held in England about the New Zealand war. He believed that the Natives were gaining confidence, and he thought it would be a great calamity if Ministers were removed at present. He had officially visited Coromandel in company with the Colonial Secretary, and he noticed with satisfaction the great deference paid to that gentleman by the Natives. A portion of the press had made statements to the contrary, but he could bear testimony to the fact. The Natives at Coromandel had asked for gunpowder and firearms in exchange for their land, but Mr. Fox had sternly refused this. When Governor Grey arrived at Auckland, he thought he had come to work with men elected by the people of New Zealand, and, when he took into counsel the men whom he found in power, he became aware that their views coincided with his own., Considering the circumstances under which Sir George Grey came here, would it be right to say "Here is the money, do the work yourself?" Would the Governor thank them for that? If he (Mr. Williamson) was the Governor, h!e would not.

Mr. FITZHERBERT said that the question was one which could not be passed over with a silent vote. He thought that his hon. friend (Mr. F.) had committed a blunder in bringing this question before the House, at the invitation of the hon. member for Cheviot, in matter more remarkable for its ingeniousness than its truth, the result of which would be useless for any legislative purpose, though the subject would have done well enough for a debating club. When the House flared up at the very idea of legislative interference by the Imperial Parliament, the hon. member the leader of the Opposition drew up aperies of resolutions, which received the common support to combat the common enemy—lmperial legislation. The joint resolutions of both Houses, passed in 1860, set forth that the Native Secretary should be a member of a responsible ministry. What had been done in the meantime to produce this change of opinion? What alteration has taken place in the circumstances of the Colony to produce this change of opinion? The sum of £IO,OOO was voted in 1857, but with the proviso that that sum was to be spent by the Governor in Council; while today they desire to hand over the Colony, and the whole Native race to a Governor-dictator. If it was expected that the hon. members opposite expected to secure the confidence of the House without an explanation of this inconsistency, they would be greatly mistaken. The resolution unanimously passed last session was identical in spirit, and almost identical in language, with that now before the House. The motives of the human mind in opposition were so multifarious that it was difficult to arrive at a right conclusion as to the cause of this change. It was a difficult problem. A peace Governor was sent out, the late Ministry were turned out, and it was necessary to devise some machinery by which a peace Governor could work with a war Ministry, and it was accordingly resolved to have no responsibility at all. If this was not the right solution of the problem, it rested with the hon. members opposite to solve it. There are three elements in the compound question now before the House. Thoro is tho Colonist element, the Aboriginal element, and tho Imperial element. With regard to the Colonist view of the subject, he took the view of the Canterbury Press; with regard to the Imperial, there was a good deal of the £ s. d. in its aspect, which was somewhat repulsive. John Bull is supposed to bo a very Btolid individual; but he is extremely averse to be "Jewed," and in this way they would view this repudiation of responsible government. With regard to tho Native aspect, Sir George Grey wanted not so much their money as their cordial cooperation. Though he might have suspended tho Constitution; he had only to lift up his little finger, and this power would have been granted him. It was a system of irresponsibility which had caused the Taranaki war, which was itself a very strong case in support of tho resolution. A legislative assembly never voluntarily denuded itself of power, and if this were to do so it would be an epoch in history. Mr, Fitzherbert spoke at great length, and his speech produced some applause and provoked much laughter,

but the above is its substance, without the gloss with which he artistically adorned it. Mr. WELD referred to the speeches of Dr. Featherston and Mr. Fitzherbert, which amounted to nothing more than the desire to have the control over a department, not of a policy. The Government had put themselves in a humiliating position. An hon. member said—No; but he could not say what was humiliating to him. He did not value consistency above any other virtue, nor would he allude to the numerous inconsistencies of which Dr. Featherston had been guilty. There was something higher than consistency that he valued, and that was truth. They had no real power in Native matters, and he would not take the responsibility, until he had the power, and could pay the expense. He severely criticized the speeches of the two members above mentioned, and in doing put life into a sleepy House. Mr. GRAHAM said that he represented an important constituency not quite so largo as that of Mr. Gillies, but half the floating population that gentleman represented might be at Coromandel, and therefore he had a right to be heard. If they refused to aid Sir George Grey, they would be shirking their duty. He had travelled through the disaffected part of the country and if the Native policy was carried on successfully he believed that the Natives would soon bo qualified to have seats in the House. He should vote for the resolution.

Mr. FOX commeuced his reply at halfpast eleven. After somo preliminary remarks, he said—To Mr. Fenton, not to Mr. Richmond, was due the two great principles which lay at the basis of a sound policy iu Native affairs. Sir George believed that the true art of governing the Natives was by treating the Natives with justice. First principles wore like a naked skeleton, the Statesman must look at the living body. It was said the resolutioh was hazy, and so was sometimes the moon, and sometimes the man who looked at it. Sir George Grey had never taken a step without consulting his Ministers. The whole amount of presents bestowed upon all tho Natives in 16 years had amounted to little more than £20,000. They had corrupted the Maories by giving them 6d. a year, and therefore we ought not to have ministerial responsibility in Native affairs. This, said the hon. member, was the logical deduction. The Governor was better able to work out tho Native problem by the aid of his responsible Ministers than he could single handed. It would take ten Sir George Grey's. In reply to Mr. Carleton he said there was no other ministerial memoranda than those before the House. He was not aware that Sir George Grey had sent home any despatches that ho had not shown his Ministers. The memorandum written by him (Mr. Fox) with reference to the undesirability of suspending the Constitution, was written at Sir George Grey's own request. Tho speech occupied an hour, when the question was put, and the House divided: — Ayes, 22. Noes, 22. Bell, F, D. Atkinson, H. A. Brandon, A. de B. Butler, W. Carter, C. K. Colenso, W. Eyes, W. H. Curtis, H. E. Featherston, I. E. Dick, T. FitzGerald, E. Gillies, T. B. Fitzherbert, W. Jollie, F. Graham, G. Mason, W. Graham, B. Moorchouso, W. S. Harrison, 11. F. Mantell, W. It. D. Henderson, T. Nixon, M. G. Fox, W. O'Neill, J. Munro, J. Richmond, A. J. ORorke, G. M. Richmond, J. C. Renall, A. Russell, T. Rhodes, W. B. Stafford, E. W. Saunders, A. Wilson, J. C. Taylor, C. Williamson, James Taylor, W. W. Weld, F. A. Williamson, John Wells, W. Wood, Reader Watt, I. N. Ward, C.—teller. Richardson—teller. Pairs. Carleton, 11. Domett, A. The SPEAKER gave his casting vote with the noes, which put the Ministry in a minority, and " shelved" the resolution. In tho early part of the day the Miuistry had been defeated on a motion of Mr. JOLLIE for a nominal return of Europeans in occupation of Native lands, when, iu opposition to the Government, the return was ordered by a majority of 22 against 19.

The Wellington correspondent "f the Nelson Colonist concludes his report of the debate as follows: " When the House met oa Tuesday morning, Mr. Fox stated that although the House refused to divide upon the motion which the Government had introduced, the Ministers could not conceal from themselves the fact that a large portion of the House had differed from the views held by Ministers, and that the Ministers could not depend upon the cordial support of tho House upon what they considered the cardinal points of their Native policy—under those circumstances they had considered it their duty to tender their resignation to His Excellency, who had been pleased to accept the same. And then, as a last stroke ofj minhterial irony, he apologised to the House for not having recommended the Governor to send for Mr. Curtis, although he had moved the previous question, but had recommended him to send fur Mr. Stafford. " It is perfectly well known to both sides of the House that Mr. Stafford could not form a ministry. Mr. Fitzgerald was soon afterwards sent for, but it is understood that ho will not take office. " Mr. Dick, Mr. Gillies, Mr. Mautell, and Mr. Moorehouse, although voting against the putting of the question, ara supposed to be generally favourable to tho Fox Ministry; indeed, so strong is the conviction upon all well-informed and unprejudiced minds that the exclusion of Mr. Fox from the Ministry would have a most injurious effect upon the Native mind, that no Ministry will be likely to stand in which he does not form a part, and it is not very likely that he will form any secondary part. The accession to office of any of tho late Ministers would undoubtedly be regarded by the Natives as a reason for withdrawiug all confidence from the pakeha runanga."