Tuesday, June 21,1851. Provincial Councils Bill.

New Zealander, Volume 7, Issue 555, 9 August 1851, Page 3

Tuesday, June 21,1851. Provincial Councils Bill.

The Council met at the usual hour. After prayors, on the motion oi the Attorney General of New Zealand tho Council wont into Committee on Provincial Council's Hill, The Title, i'roamble and first clause wero read and agreed to. Mr. Bui moved an amendment to tho second clause to the effect that tho members ao nominated by the Crown should he members holding office under Government. Ho objected to the principle of noinineeism which was not to be defended on the representative principle, though circumstances might exist in a new community which might cause for a time the postponement of the introduction of the representatives principle, but ho held in the abstract the two principles to be : inconsistent with each other. Although, under the peculiar cncuinstanco of the Colony, U was right that the Crown, as protector of tho native laco, should exeiciso the punciplo of nomineeiarn ta a certain extent, he was of opinion that all persons ao nominated should bo officers responsible to Government, as their position otherwise would bo anomalous and would prevent them from being usoful. In a Council composed wholly of nominees, the nominees of the Crown may ontoitain n fooling of responsibility to the community winch would not be tho case wlieie the repiosentativo principle exists. '1 ho ofhci.il membcia appointed by tho Crown may bo looked upon as icprehcnting the Government in tho Legislature, but while the Government could place no ro.lson.lble tiusl in members who t held no official situation, tho people be thought would look with jealousy and suspicion on so obnoxious a mixture of nomineeism and representation. There was a gieat difference between an official member uud a nominee, as m a small community it might prove highly inconvenient if the Government bad not the power of nominating il& officers to seats in the Council, ami on tins giouud.as well as for the reasons which existed with respfct to the Native i.ico tho practice might be suppoited. Tho Colonial Tri'asuuhr socom'eJ tho amendment and considered it absolutely necessaiy to tho practical working of the Council that the officers of Government should have sp.its in Council. Their position was such that they could not be called upon to bo elected in any colony, which would prove a daiisjoious experiment, the eflect of which was exemplified not long ago in Canada, when the populai administration proposed a bill of indemnity and compensation to labels. That bill had croatcd a feeling of surprise throughout the Empire, while riots, distress and losses ensued in that Colony and showod to what extontsuch evils might be produced. The Aitoiini y Geni val of New Zealand expressed his sin prise, not only that sucli an amendment had been proposed, but that it could be thought by any one to be calculated to add to the liberality of the bill. Many objections would no dougbt suggest themselves to the minds of lion, members why the amendment &hould not bo adopted. He would content himself by stating but one, wlneh however, was in Ins mind fatal to its adoption, lie believed that in New Zealand, as elsewhere, there were many persons who, in private life, by their chai acter, abilities, and fortune, would be able to exercise a powerful and beneficial influence in the Legislature, but who, fiom nat ural temperament or other causes, would be unwilling- to put themselves piominontly forward and resoit to the means necessary to secure a seat in the Council by popular election, but who, if they could othonvise obtain a seat, would not be unwilling to serve tho country by taking a part in its Councils. It was provided by tho bill that in the choice of the elective members oi the Council the utmost freedom of choice should be secuiod to the electors. Why, ho would ask, should the Ciown bo limited in the choico of non-elective members ; which would bo done if ting amendment wore adopted ! Why should the Ciown bo limited m the rango of its choice to some twenty persons in the pay and service of tho Crown, when theie were piobably in the colony five tunes that number of pci sods m piivate lifo, independent and unconnected with the Government, who, in point of character, talent, and property, bad at l^abt equal claims with officers of the government. For the lensous bo bad mentioned, behoving also that tbo amendment proposed by his lion, friond — that the non-elective members of the Council should bo the paid servants of the Crown — most injuriously impaired the liberality of the niouquro as introduced by the Government be (tbe Attorney General) must give it the most decided opposition. The Coloniil Secuutarv of Ni w Zealand thought there wero no good gi omuls for restricting the Government in its choico of members. Tho decision on all questions was left to the conscience and judgment of membois, and the Government on tho other hand might refuse to send ngain to the Council members whom they might disapprove of. Many persons well qualified to have seats in the Council might shrink from becoming candidates, and he might refer to two classos, clergymen and officers of the Army, some of whom might 'even be preferable as members to officers of Government. The duration of the Council being so limited the electors equally witb (he Government might if they pleased change their mombeis. The Amendment was suppoitod by Mr. Dillon, the Colonial Secretary of New Minister (itid Captain Smith, Hit Gnonr.E Gnr-Y wished to make Home explanation, as he thought tho whole subject waa miauuderstood by hon. members when they asserted that the principle of nomineeism was repudiated every whore, even in England; the opinion was gaining ground among gicat thinkers that that principle ought to be admitted, and he thought it would have weight with some members in that Council, to cite tho opinion of Carlylowho advocated this view, his idea being that a large class of pc sons of reflection, of much knowledge, of much vnuio might assist to guide in tho deliberations of the Councils of the nation li the Crown possessed tho right of exercising this power. If thoughtful and philosophic mi (ids consideied tins principle applicable in such a countiy as England, it would be found still more necessary in New Zealand, Tho establishment of a larger franchise introduced the democratic principle to the fullest extent, and that in a country where there is so laige a native population, which was a further reason that Government t-houhl bo enabled to call poisons to the Council who might assi«t in directing it, as well at least as for a fow years to guard against the risk ansing from an opposite course. It was within the knowledge of the Attorney General that it had been under discussion whether this was not a moro liberal form than that of tbo Auatinhtm Colonies bill to restrict the Government fiom selecting more than one half the number of members nominated by the Ciown fiom Government olliceis. All he asked was to be allowed to select poisons who oan assist in dnecting and guidang tho Councils at least for tlio next few yeais. Another objection to tho amendment was that it would have the eflect of lObtncting the Bill in its operation. If it v»as intended to bo applied in provinces whcio the population was limited, it would be essential not to call u large staff of officials into existence which would be the efloct of the amendment. Tn a nf>w country where ability wa>> of gieat value, it would be necessary for the Government to offer Lit go salaries to secuie the sin vices of pei sons of ability. Another attraction offered by the moa*>uie as it stood wat-, that it cannot be faaid to establish tho pnnciplc of nomineeism in its fullest extent. For m the General Legislature to be called into existence theie would be no nominees. After the most ciiicful consideration tho clause as it at present stood appealed to him the best anangenient he could piopose. The A i loiiKi v-Gi nliial for Nuv Munstlu observed that tho amendment seemed to bung lorwaul the question, whethei tho Council .should be purely representative or not. Now it was impossible to make any assembly purely lepresentative, at least none such bad ever yet exited, as it had lutheito been found impossible to prevent all kinds> of influences fiom counteracting the unbiassed choice of eh'< tola. I'ioof of this existed in the man} calls f<u the ballot as a pioteclion to voteis, Nnimiioi'ism hud been di'iiounewi m unmeasuied tetiun, but it might be jusinieil by the smio ai "Uinents that had been used in dele/ice of the existence of lotten boiougln, which had afloulfd means of eniianc" to the House of Commons to some of the biightesl intellects that f\m* iuioiin il (be Jiiili-.li l'.ulnme»t. Though schedule A in the llofonn Act abolished sixty rotten boiou<;hs, luttcn boioughs fitill existed; and it is a question iinii>ti<; -.( many noil mfonncd people, uhethci u would be tthe to abolish th^m. The mover of tho amendment had admitted th.it Nominees might possibly act independf ntly, b.Jt he (tho Attoiney-GeiuM.il) would go furtliM, and s;iy, that tho delegates of the mob, or the puppets of a faction, pledged on certain points, and

making certain professions, without making which pledges ami professions they would not be elected, might be much more depondont, abject, and slavish than Nominees of the Crown, and that Buoh Nominees might act from the most conscientious motives. The mover of the amendiceut had lost sight of the fact that the Couucil being only one «bnmber would oomprise both the constituent purls of the British Constitution, llio Lordo as well os the Commons, and viewed in this light, Nominee 1 ) would be a useful cheok on the representatives of the people. After a further discussion in which Mr. Bell, Mr. Wakefiold and Sir. George Grey joined. The Colonial Sicuktaiiy of Npw Munstw said he considered any analogy incorrect between the nominee! ma Colotiy, ftud the old system of nominees in the Home of Commons, and that it removed aome of the objections against nominees that the latter were to few in number. There was a difficulty in straining an analogy between England and <jo small a Colony ; for example the celebrated Huiko was c member for a nominee borough and yot he was almost always oppoifid to the Government. These nominees repieaented unoh a variety of interests as to take away in a great measure th« odium of che practice, while nothing of the kind existed in this country where wo hate nothing in the shape of old prejudices and interests to-fall back upon. His Excellency had referred to Carlyle, but while he was ready to admit the great authority of thnt writer ho doubted if he would propose nomineeiam in a new Country. If he could persuade the mass of the people tointroduco it well and good, but ho thought he would not attempt to establish it by irresponsible power. Sir GioiiGi. Guuy obsorved the question as raised wa9 not one of Nomineeism, but one of the restriction of tho power of Government in the selection of members. He. had hcaid nothing to alter his opinion in favour of the clause aa it stood. It should also bo remembered tint tha British Government does at prosont, and must for a long time, assist in paying a considerable portion of the expenses of this colony, and ought therefore- to h.ivo an influence in its Councils. He thought if the Bill trore not passed in that form, it would not ultimately be approved of, and that it would be better, at least for the next two or three years, to allow tho clause to stand a1?a 1 ? it is. The Committee then divided, when there were- for the amendment 6, against it 8; — majority against amendment 2. On the sth clause, defining the qualifications of electojs having been lead, Mr. Bi i r. uimovingan amendment, admitted that the clause established a liberal franchise, but that it was insufficient to cany out the principle proposed by Ins Excellency. The fact was, that in ao young a community and with so small a population, the franchise would' practically exclude a large propoition of the most intelligent voters. A groat number of houses even in Wellington it would be impossible to rate at the yeaily value of £10, while at Nelson a great number of por3ons would be excluded, many of whom were voters in England: nnd the operation of tins clause was still more glaring in the country districts. Tho lion, member rofei red to a memorial from Nelson in support of his statements, and said that any_ attempt to deprive such a class ftom a participation in electoral privileges would put an end to all fairness of representation. The men who were living in mud hovels were the thews and sinews of tho colony, and to their exeitions was owing tho gieatest part of the cultivation in the country. He would therefore propose that the franchise ho reduced to £5 in town and country, and that the word tenement be substituted for house. Mr. Dim on supported the amendment and thought the substitution of the word tenement would meet the difficulty. Mr. Cautiey opposed the amendment and showed that its effects would be to placo the town and country voter on the s.une footing. Ho consider"d the country population to bo increasing so mpidly in wealth that by the time the bill came into operation there would be ' very few persons disqualified by the clause. The Atiornky Ginlrai, of New Zealand said the amendment raised two distinct points, it proposed to lower tho franchise and to substitute tho word tenement for house. From his expeiienco of tho Northern Province he would assert theie was not one intelligent, respectable, industrious man who had been two years in the colony, living near Aucklund, in such a position aa was described by the hon. member. (Hear.) The effect of reducing the fianchise would be tOßubjoct the Bill to disallowance thiougli tho offorts of a party at home who interested themselves in. affairs, a soit of Fourth Ebtate, working without any responsibility. After some fuither discussion Mr. Bell's amendment wns witlidi.iwn and an amendment by Mr. Cautiey substituting the word tenement for house carried. The Coi,ONiAi,TitEABunEßinoved anamendrnenton the 7th clauso, to the efl'ect that the non-elective members of the Council appointed by the Governor should be civil oflicerfl of the Government, or naval and military officers on full pay. Tue amendment was not seconded The Committee adjourned after the consideration of the I'ith clause.