LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, September 21.

New Zealander, Volume 3, Issue 138, 25 September 1847, Page 3

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, September 21.

Present — His Kxcellency the Governor, the Colonial Secretary, the Attorney Geneial, the Colonial Tieasurer, Mr. Brown, and Mr. Merri- ! man. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. Brown rose to move, as he had previous')* given notice, for the copy of a despatch (Vo. 41,fiom Kail Grey to Governor Grey, dated luthFeb, 15 47, with all others named in the margin thereof ; am! also the copy of a despatch from his Excellency the Governor to the Bishop of New Zea'and, dated 80th August last. The hon. member übseived that in order to obviate the objection formerly raised by the Governor to the terms of his previous motion, on the giounds of its being too general, he had altered the leimts of it to its present specific shape. For the production of the document first referred to, Mr. Brown rested his application on the giouud that the despatches alluiled to affected not merely the pecuniary intetests of a large number of individuals, but likewise reflected injuriously upon their personal characleis ; and such being the case these individuals had a right to be put in possession of the charges made against them, that they might have the meant ot justifying themselves to her Majest\'s goverument,—such a request, he conceived, was onl> fair and honorable, and ought to be conceded to. He did not expect his motion to be seconded by any member of the council, — and he would go further, and say, that properly speak ing, it ought not to be seconded ; became if it were, the motion ought to be put to the vole, and if such vole were carried, it would lay the Governor under the necessity of complying with it; but he was aware that the Council had no power to compel production of any documents by shell means from his Excellency, It rested with him alone to produce ihe documents sought for, or to refuse them ; he therefoie now brought the matter forward more in the shape of a request, than a motion, and he apprehended that it could not be got rid of by want of the formality of a seconder. He included the letter written to the Bishop in his request, and contended that the paities interested had good reason to seek the production of it, because it sought by means of the influence, interest, or the position of the Bishop with the missionaries, to urge them to give up their lands, by means which were neither legal or authorised. If such an attempt were successful, it would seriously affect the interests of the other laud claimants, who stood in the same position with the mis sionaiies. The Governor — Can the hon. member give any authority as grounds for the grave charge he has just preferred t Can he make good his assertions, and prove that the Governor has ever made such an attempt to procure the Bishop's influence for such a purpose f Mr. Brown — Had said before that his information was so derived that he did not feel justified in making known his authority. What had came to his knowledge, had been imparted in confidence, and the steps he had taken were, in some respects, to enable the government to rid themselves of an imputation that certainly he believed to be not altogether groundless. The anxiety felt by the claimants in consequence of this proceeding was very natural j indeed, there was no use in being otherwise than candid on the subject — the claimants were aware as well as the Governor, that the Missionaries have a powerful influence at home, and have therefore the means of Jetting their voice be heard, and obtaining redress for any injustice that may be attempted towards them } but should t heir interest in the laii# question cease in consequence

of the means taken through the Bishop, by a species of clerical influence, — or by the more palpable methoil of threatening them with the displeasure of the society to winch they belong, unless they should submit to the demands now made upon them ; if under these circumstances, these missionaries should give up their lands, the private claimants, who were uninfluential persons, would sutler also,— as they would then be isolated, and without the means of obtaining justice horn the government. They might certainly get law, but not justice. The Attorney General observed that whatever might now be said to the contrary, their could be no doubt but that the subject was brought under the consideration of the Council, by the honorable member, in the form of a motion ; for as such it would be found to be entered on the Notice Book. Not having been seconded, the motion of course fell to the grouiid, and the subject matter of it could not now properly be discussed by them. The motion itself however, appeared to him, the Attorney General, to demand some observation from the Council. They would bear in mind, that this was in substance the same motion which had a lew days ago been moved by the same honorable member, and which had then failed for want of being seconded. "When a motion was particularly absurd — unwarrantable— or mischievous, it commonly met with its fitting condemnation in being allowed to drop for want of support — and any discredit which might attach to it, fell solely on the mover of it, and in no way affected the character of the body to which it might be addressed. But it was otherwise when a motion — thus already self-condemned— was again brought forward by the same member ; it then became necessary for members to express their opinion of the conduct of the mover of it. With respect to the motion just made by the honorable member on bis left, he, the Attorney General, thought that they had a right to assume that it had been brought forward in the expectation that it would meet with support from the Council, or at least, from some of its members. And he must ask what had the Council, or what had any of its members, done, that they should be supposed capable of giving their support to any such motion. The correspondence that had been moved for, was either public and official— or it was of a private nature. If of a public nature, had it reference to any subject then under the consideration of the Council 1 Nothing of the sort was contended for, even by the honorable member himself. What right then had he to call for its production ? Iv what part of the Constitution of New Zealand did he find that the Legislative Council had any authority given to it to interfere with the action of the Executive Government! Even it the correspondence moved for, had been of an official and public character, it would be obvious to the Council that the honorable member's motion was wlio.ly unwarrantable. But what if the correspondence was of an entirely private nature — relating solely to the affairs of the Church Missionary Society in England, and their agents in this country— what then must be thought of the motion : and what would deservedly be thought of the Council, if, without comment, they permitted motions to be made before them for the production cf private correspondence ? But there was another feature in the case which rendered it, if possible, still more open to censure. He could not say that the information on which the motion hid been made, had been obtained by a breach of confidence; but it certainly came before the Council under circumstances of suspicion. It would be remembered that, on a former occasion, the | honorable member, when a^ked for his authority, declined to give it on the ground that the information had been given to him in confidence. Now, if the matter was of a public nature, and could with propiiely b* communicated to him, what need of mystery— of secrecy— ov of confidence ! If private — was it respectful to the Council to call on its members to countenance a motion, appearing to rest upon a betrayal of confidence— and that too for the production of a private letter! But apart Aom all other considerations, the terms of the motion itself were most objectionable j for it cast upon a deserving body of men an imputation as unfounded as it was unjust. Referring to the terms of the motion, as originally worded (for the motions of to-day and of Tuesday last must be taken to be in reality the same), it would be seen to be in these words— for a letter from the Governor to the Bishop, " requesting him to use his influence with the Church Missionaries, in order to induce them to give up all lands which they hold over and above 2560 acres." He, the Attorney General, would not charge the honorable member with the wilful intention of damaging the Missionary cause— or the characters of the Church Missionaries : but the inference to be drawn from the terms of his motion, undoubtedly, was that every one of the Church Missionaries held, a greater quantity than 25G0 acres of land— and that in order to induce them to yield up a portion of these large possessions, it was necessary to exert the united influence of the Governor and the Bishop. The imputation, thus indirectly conveyed, he the Attorney General, need hardly say, was utterly unfounded. In bringing forward this motion, he would acquit the mover of intending any disrespect to the Council : but when they were called upon to support a motion, unwarrantable in its character — injurious in its tendency, and unfounded in fact, he thought that thoy owed it to themselves distinctly to disavow all participation iv it. Mr. Meiriman would go one step further than the Attorney General, and sa\, that the Church Missionaries were too lo\al a bo ly, to be even suspected of lelaing possession of lauds which had been illegally obtained. The Colonial Secretary could not refrain fiom giving his opinion on the motion (hat had been brought before the council, He could not help joining iv its condemnation, for he believed it to imply censure on the government, inasmuch as the mover's observations which accompanied it, went to accuse the government of using unfair, instead of legal means to ensure the accomplishment of an end desired. He believed that the motion was intended to make a bad impression against the government, without ' sufficient grounds being shown for its introduction to the council. Fro'ii the remarks which fell from the mover, it appeared that the chief object kept in view by these claimants wosjio arm a party of sufficient power to contend with the government for possession of the lands they had illegally acquit ed; but such a course was most unfair; for, instead of bringing these claimants forward in a body, the ends of justice and equity could only be met by a stiict review of every claim upon its own particular merits. For these and several other reasons, be condemned the motion, and was glad that the council had not allowed themselves to become identified with it. Mr. Brown replied that he wa< well aware that h'n motion implied censure upon the Government— but he had brought it forward to give the Government an opportunity of clearing themselves from that censure, which he regretted was so well deserved. It had been said that the motion was irregular; but he would refer to the practice of the House of Com mons iv similar cases, and contend that when any

member of thai hou»c thought proper to call for the production of any oflici.il document, he did nut n - quire a 6ccotuter to such a motion, and if it w*s deemed consistent with the welfare of the state, tho document was at once produced. It was optional w.t'i the heads of departments in that house whet'ie'* u> produce papers called for in this way— aud Hi, Excellency could use the same disci etioit in the Council. It had also Lceu said that the letter refene I v j was a private communication j but the mere term < of " private and confidential" (if written upon it) did not conslitue it a private document. It related to public matters, and was a public document to all intents and purposes, and calculate.! to produce an impoitant effect upon a large number of the community. He did not expect, however, from what had already taken place, that the despatch would be produced : hut he considered it his duty to take the best means in his power to obtain it, The Governor said I hat perhaps it was now hti place to offer some remarks upon what had taken place in the council on the subject of this molion ; and he viould first observe that the mode adopted in colonial legislatures in bringing forward requests such as iiud been referred to, was in the form of an address from the Council to the Governor, — who, it was quite true, might or might not comply with it, — as his own prudence might guide him. In this instance, the members of Council had not in any form, thought proper to make themselres parties to this procedure,— for indeed from the manner it which it had been brought before them, it was not entitled to their respect* He was sorry to say that a breach of confidence had been committed, — In the first place, by the publication in this country, of a despatch, obtained in an irregular way, and published without the concurrence either of the noble lord at the heud of the colonial department, or of his own j and secondly in the construction which had been put upon the terms of a letter written by himself to the Lord Bishop of New Zealand. In both cases, the manifest intention was to raise an outcry agains 1 the government, and to cause distrust aud suspicion to be entertained. He had no doubt but that a small party of the colonists were discontented. But for what gi eat principle were these individuals con I ending f They were not standing 1 up for any great political or religious principle— but merely for the advancement of their own selfish interests }— and by their continued system of intimidation, aud threats of prevailing disaffection, they hoped to drive the Government into an acknowledgment of theirillegul claims. He called upon the Council, as the law-givers of the colony, not to lend themselves to the furtherance of the designs of men whose selfishness had blinded them to the general interests ot Urn colony. The a legation of disaffection in the country he denied— an 1 he helievad it hud been made iv order to intinndati. A solitary instance had been slated on a previous day, J»ut no name had been given, he believed, for very good reasous. He was not aware of any cause for discuii'eut, but if any did exist, it was the result of the agitation of a few individual laud claimanli, who felt aggrieved that the Government did not give them possession of all that they desired ; he, however, was aware that on a former time disdisrotitent did prevail in the colony, whub resulted in intimidation— to which, the Government, being weak, was obliged to submit; and was forced to adopt measures, the evil coiuequenee ot whioh have since been felt, and are still felt in the colony. The Natites were allowed almost without restriction, to dispose of their lands,* which were greedily purchased l>y the people, many of whom gave guns and powtltr, wh'ch were in exchange uted against our troops, and became the instruments of much bloodshed. He had been charged with disturbing titles to land. Now nothing had been moie constantly his aim and desire, than that all titles should be to adjusted, that they would stand on clear and unquestionable grounds— and he could confidently call upon any one to come forward and point out any instance in which he had unnecessarily disturbed any titles. No edict had been issued, but the Courts of the country had been appealed to when the validity of titles was on good grounds suspected. He was willing to test all queationable titles in the same way — but, notwithstanding nil the allegations which had been made by selfhsh men, whose avowed object was, to band together a paity strong enough to force the government iuto an acknowledgment of their illegal claims, he never would tacitly consent to oppress the natives by allowing titles to those gentlemen over excessive quantities of land, nor would he incur the certain loss.of valuable lives and the expense of Briti-h money in offering protection to them. He had spoken thus plainly for the sake of his ovvu honor, and that of the government to w bich he belonged, for the insi. nuations that had been thrown out were most derogatory to the honour of the government of this country, and he felt it to be his duty to repel them. It had been stated that these individuals wished to secure the assistance of the Church Missionaries, to fuither their design*,— but he could assure them tha'lneitl.e" the C.iuivb Misfcion Society at home, nor it* agent* here, would unite with such petsons for such objects; and how ever specious, and however loud might,, be their professions of desire for the protection of the natives, it would at once be discovered that the sole reasons for these professions were purely selfish, — merely to secure the influence of a respectable body iv order to advance the interests of some ten or twelve persons in number. His most earnest "'desiie ha-l been to bring these claims, old and new, to a final a ljnstmenf, for he knew that their settlement was of great importance to the welfare of the country j ha had acted to the best of his ability with a sinceie desire for the interests of all patties,— he might have erred,— he did not pretend to infallibility, but if it was shewn thai n any case he hud acted unfairly, he was teudy to make ever) reparation in his power. Mr. Brown replie.l by stating that he had no desire in bringing forward the motion, to damage either the Missionaries or their claims. He knew too wel the nature of the despatch to the Bishop, to have made any mis-statement of it. He had slated that great anxiety was felt about the uncertainty as to land titles— and he had good reason for what he said— for every one he spoke to expressed the greatest distrust. He had taken the only open and honorable course to enable the Government to explain the matter by moving for a copy of the despatch, but the Government had not ventured to bring it forward. He hal uo desire to continue the lubject further, as he saw it could do no good, and would merely remiud th« Council that the whole discussion had been cau«ed by the Government refusing to give any information as to what titles wect to be enquired into. siuc« tlut had been refused, he had no alterntUiY^Utt

but to move for the whole correspondence on the subject. The mutter must now he left as he had found it, and the excitement would of course be continued. If the Council thought that he had acted wrong, he was open to any censure they thought fit; and although he might be censured hy the Council, still he conceived that he had only done his duty in the steps he had taken. The Governor said, thai as the lion, member had 6poken lour times, w lior< i as he should have onl) spoken twice, perhaps he might hu allowed to make an obbervution. If any persons felt aggrieved ok the subject of their lands, he believed it to be their duty to apply to the Government. It was the duty of the subject, if he felt any grievance, to appeal to the Crown. He could not conceive that such adegiee of disaffection existed as had been stated — unless, indeed, some had been fomented by the representations of a, few individuals. Let those who think themselves aggrieved come to the Government and complain, instead of sending through the hon. member who appealed to b« their agent in the Count il. He was not ceitain that this motion had not dune harm. Hie actions in Council would be more narrow ly watched from home, after so bold an attempt had been made in that Council, to ioice t|ie Government into a recognition of such a principle regarding land. The Attorney-General said, that if this discussion or rather the bringing forward this motion, had been mischievous in some respects, yvhich he by do means intended to diny, yet he thought that it had not been altogether without advantage. It now appeared, from the admission of the honorable member, him* self, that his motion on (he subject of die Church Missionaries, had been brought forward by him with" no view of promoting the interests, or of in any way benefiting the members of that body, but simply for the purpose of strengthening a political party, consisting of a few of the large landclaimanls, for whom the Church Missionaries, according to the candid, but unwitting 1 avowal of the honorable Member, were lo be made the cav's-paw. Being now put upon their guard, as to the nature, and real object of this proceeding, he, the Attorney-General, hoped that the Missionaries would take good care not to allow themselves to be in any manner identified with it, as \velln> to escape irom the unseemly position in which it had been intended to place iheni. *E|ie Registration Bill was committed, and considered,-— after which the Council adjourned.