Provincial Council.

Lyttelton Times, Volume VI, Issue 372, 28 May 1856, Page 6

Provincial Council.

Thursday, May 22. The Speaker went to prayers at 5 p.m. Mr. Ollivier presented a petition from the inhabitants of and about Christehurch, in favour of the Government clauses concerning the preemptive rights to be introduced into the Lands' Regulations. Mr. Hamilton presented a similar petition from Lylteltoii. Both petitions were read, received, and ordered to be laid on the table. The Pkov. Secrktart moved that the Speaker leave the chair, and that the house do go into committee on the clauses he had given notice of. Mr. Moorhotjse moved as an amendment that the question be adjourned to that day three months. One reason for asking this course was, that the General Assembly was now sitting, and it was extremely probable that they would be legislating on the Waste Lands. As their legislation would, of course, supersede any course that might be decided on by ibis house, he did not think that he was asking too much,-and he thought that the house would be fully justified in acceding to the postponement. Capt. Wkstenra seconded the motion. Mr. Oi/livier was at a loss to imagine from the statement of the lion, member why they should defer legislation ? Before he could accede to the proposal he must have more satisfactory reasons than those stated.

The house divided. Mr. Moorhouse's amendment was lost by 9 to 6.

The motion was then put that the Speaker do now leave the chair. Ayes, 11; noes, 4.

The Speaker then left the chair, and the house resolved itself into committee.

The Prov. Secretary expressed his regret that, having passed the Land Regulations but a twelvemonth ago, they should now be called on to amend some of the clauses. Yet, though it might be a subject for regret, it certainly" was not one for surprise ; fur, under the most favourable circumstances, it was extremely difficult in matters of legislation to be free from defects. Even in the acts of the Imperial Parliament errors were to be detected: our owu Constitution Act was a case in point. lie remembered well, when these regulations were discussed last year, that upou the subject of pre-emptive rights there was a feeling that they should be passed over. The only member of the house, who was desirous of thoroughly grappling with the subject, was Mr. Dampier, but, generally, this question was passed over very gingerly. In regard to these rights, the Provincial Solicitor gave it as his opinion that the contract, as entered into with the Canterbury Association, could only be preserved in its entirety, and that the person holding a right could only buy at £3 per acre, and in 50 acre blocks; and, as the equitable title was also to be preserved, that no challenger could buy for less, or in less blocks, or the equitable title would be violated. The practical effect of this was to lock up all the available land round Christchurch, as it was for some distance covered with pre-emptive rights. In this dilemma, he thought that he could not do better than come to this Council, and to ask it to confirm by their act what hejwas convinced was their intention when they passed the regulations,—viz., to throw the whole of the lands of the Province open at £2 per acre. Government now came before the Council and asked them to affirm what their intention really was, and, as it would have to be put into some form, they had drawn out two clauses, to be substituted for Nos. 67 and 68. If such had been the intention of the Council, they would affirm them by adopting the clauses; if such was not their intention, they would reject them. The clauses had been worded so as distinctly to bring out the opinion of the house. He had simply to propose the case, and to leave' to the committee the details. He was aware that it was the opinion of some gentlemen in the Council that there are certain legal rights, and that the house cannot deal with them. Others think that the Council have no power to legislate on this matter, as it affects foregone contracts. This difficulty has not escaped" the Government. Their legal adviser has given it as his opinion that there are no legal claims in existence, that there is not the shadow of a shade for these claims. (Hear, hear.) He granted that there was something of a kind of contract, —there was a power of first choice over certain lands, license renewable from year to

rear, to be limited to 10 years, or to be determined sooner, if the Canterbury Association failed. The Association had ceased its functions : it was dead, and with the parent (lied the offspring. Government, be it considered, had taken a very fair view of the case of these claims. They proposed to put the claimants on the same footing as others, and that this was a fair and equitable solution of the question. He moved that clause 67 be expunged, and the clause proposed be substituted. Mr. Bray would ask if the case submitted and the opinion upon it, is before the house, as it would be important for "the vnfoimation of the house P At present, the holder of a preemptive right held under the Imperial Parliament, now they objected to have their title transferred to a provincial ordinance. If these contracts were equitable, he would maintain them ; if not, abolish them. The lion. gentleman then continued to show the origin of these rights as a premium to men of capital to emigrate. That they were the cause or inducement of a great amount of land being sold in a short time; that the failure of the Association did not cause the agreement for these rights to fail ; that the agreement continues with the British Government ; and that neither the General Assembly nor the Provincial Council had power to deal with them. He should, therefore, oppose the motion.

Mr, Baiikek thought that there had been a ,7 deal of dust thrown into the eyes of the public * on these matters. Lust session, it was understood that the legal rights and equitable contracts of the Canterbury Association were to be respecied, and these rights he was prepared to show were both legal and equitable. In the terms of purchase of 27th Sept. 1850, there was no hint that these rights ceased with the determination of the Association's powers. At that time the Association was acting as an agent or go between for the Government, in the sale of land, and the Government accepts all acts of parties acting with its authority, and adopts them for its own. There was much land in this place let by Mr. Sewell on purchasing clauses, which was somewhat similar in its effects to these rights, how woald the purchasers take it if the Church Property Trustees, to whom this land had now reverted, were to repudiate Mr. Sewell's acts, and to resume the land. It had been said that when Sir George Grey published the decease of the Association, all their rights fell to the ground: he denied this, as

the licenses still continued to be taken out from the Crown, and as Ion? as the Crown lasted they would last. He should oppose the measure.

Mr. Ollivier thought that the act of Parliament to which the hon. gentleman had refer-

red, was principally passed for the purpose of quieting the apprehensions of those who thought that the title to the land was not sufficient. The Lon gentleman went minutely at length into the question of the origiu aud history of these rights, from the Terms of Purchase, Acts of Parliament, despatches to Mr. Godley, and correspondence of Mr. Alston with the Home Government. In conclusion, he said, that never in the course of his life had he heard of clnims so monstrous, he had almost said barefaced, which out of a simple license to pasture would raise up'a title to the land for all time ; a license which Mr. Sewell had said was worth no more than the paper it was written on. As regards the dispatches quoted on the other side of the question, Mr. Sewell himself had acknowledged that he wrote them; and surely he must be aware what the intentions of the Association were. If as had been hinted these claims should be tried at Westminster, these were the very parties who would he called upon to,give evidence as to what the intentions of those licenses were. He considered that the claimants of

these supposed rights wished to shut upthc land

except at their own price; tliat they would even |. demand £10 per acre; and that if through f them we should lose our Waste Lands Bill altogether, let the consequences be visited on those who have iuterposed these difficulties of pre-emptive rights. For his own part, he considered the proposals of Government as a boon to the pre-emptive right holders, and he would like to see them meet it in a free and liberal spirit.

Mr. Moohhouse said that the pre-emptive rights date from ihft very origin of the Canterbury Association, even while yet it existed only on paper, and he considered that this colony owes its existence to the preemptive rights. The Association, finding the terms of purchase not sufficiently inviting to capitalists, put forward these pre-emptive rights as an induce-

meut for purchasers of land. The present attempt to destroy these claims he considered as very dangerous, it struck at the root of the quiet and peaceable possession of property. It would form a precedent for future proceedings; and by a clamour out of doors, this house might be induced some day to consent to a further encroachment on the rights of property. Bye and bye, a great public meeting might he held, at which members of that house might pour forth their eloquence on individual parties, Mr. Rhodes, for instance, and taxing him with being a great monopolist for the large amount of land he holds at Timaru and other places, would pTOpose that he should be compelled by these Ordinances to he dispossessed of his property. For his own part, he thought this would become a very popular doctrine, and an eloquent popu. lav leader could go forth from that house and by exciting the pressure from without, could raise up the cry of monsters of injustice against gentlemen, whose capital had enabled them to become purchasers of land to a verylarge amount. He differed from the Government when they proposed to have the power of altering existing contracts, although he thought that thepruposecl alteration was a g\-od one, and to the advantage of the pre-emptive right holder. The Provincial Council bad no power to alter these contracts. The General Assembly was the most proper tribunal; and it was not unlikely that this session they would proceed to frame laws for the sale and disposition of the lands; so that if the Government propositions were carried, it was not improbable that they would be nullified. He would ask the Government if they thought that they had a right to alter and modify these contracts, why not sweep them away altogether? As far as his own private opinion (ajiart from legal grounds) went, he would say, abolish these pre-emptive rights, sweep them away as a nuisance, an incumbrance, and a hindrance to the progress of the settlement. But he would entreat the Council not to stultify itself by enacting a law which would raise the laugh in England against them. He again said that personally be was adverse to the continuance of these rights; but his conscience would not allow him to consent to an illegal act, and therefore he should oppose the motion.

Dr. Donald thought that the arguments of the opponents to the Government were very meagre. He had expected to hear more from the legal gentlemen. He perfectly agreed in the opinion of the last hon. member, that it was dangerous to interefere with the rights of (he soil, but before they assumed that there existed a contract they ought first to prove it. These claims he understood to be only temporary, ceasing when the Crown stepped in on the failure of the Association, and that it rested with the supporters of these claims to prove their title.

Mr. Packer perfectly recollected tbese preemptive rights from the very beginning ;he remembered them in the Canterbury rooms, London, when it was generally understood that they conveyed no title whatever to the land, but were simply as a place for the farmer to turn his sheep and cattle on, so as to farm his freehold to the best advantage; and as a security, in case the holder effected any improvements on these runs, he had the option of buying the land instead of losing his improvements. As a first purchaser, also, he had only 16s. Sd. per 100 acres rent to pay, while others had to pay 20s. It was never for one moment contemplated that these holders were to keep the land until it was worth £20 per acre, and then to come in and buy it at £3. The new regulations had for its object to throw the land open to all, to allow the small man to acquire land; but owing to the proceedings of the pre-emptive right holders, the sale was virtually stopped, for all the land within any reasonable distance of the settled districts was covered with these licenses. It was an understood thing that these runs were solely for pistoral purposes, Now, he would tell them how these purposes were followed out. The other day, the lion, member for Christclmrch, Mr. Barker, comes before the Land Board, and wants to lay down a pre-emptive "pastoral right,-—where, think you? Why, on the Shag Rock. (Laughter.) And he is very much aggrieved when he can't have it. Another gentleman, who has a great many bullocks feeding on everybody's land but his own, comes for a pastoral run, and lays his pre-emptive right on a part all wooded, no doubt to feed his cattle on the trees. He had some small sympathy with those who had lionestly put these rights on the hill

sides and places where they could solely be used for pastoral purposes, but none for those who had obtained this land, and did not use it themselves, and were letting it out again at a great profit. They were never intended as a means of investing capital. The holders now found it very painful to give up these imaginary rights. The prospect was delicious! Only to think, the Shag Rock ! —a great sea port! What a spec! And now that there was an investigation into these matters, and a proposed just modification of them, they cry out, " Oh, you can't touch us; let us go the General Assembly. "

Mr. Mooehouse said that the question really could only be decided before a proper tribunal. The Provincial Council might be a judge of facts, but they were not of law. He acknowledged the right that a public meeting had to form an opinion on political facts, but he could not allow them to have a power of judging of law ; and, to the lawyers at last 3 this case must be referred.

Mr. Thomson said that he had attended public meetings, but he would never allow public clamour to influence his opinion against his honest convictions. He had at one meeting seen the hon. gentleman who spoke last, and who was taking as one-sided a view as any man there. As to the Council being judges of law, he presumed that the Government, before puttingforth these clauses, had taken the opiuion of their legal adviser.

Mr. Beay : Where is it? It is not before us. The Prov. Secretary : It is not usual to lay consultations before the house.

Mr. Dampier bad hoped to have had the question brought before the council more as a matter of legislation, on a broader basis. The hon. member went at length into the legal po'nts of the case.

Mr. S.Beaely had understood from Mr.Felix Wakefield's that the pre-emptive rights would have something of the nature of parks when planted and improved. As for compensation, it was a question entirely for the public to consider.

Mr. Rhodes expressed an intention of supporting the government. Mr. Bowen agree 1 mainly with the legal members who had spoken, but at this moment feeling it very important that the lands of the province should not be locked up, he should support the government. Mr. Bray moved that the house do adjourn until the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor be obtained'on a case to be submitted to him. Mr. Barker seconded it.

The House divided, when Mr. Bray's motion was lost by 11 to 7.

It was then moved that the chairman do report progress. This was lost by 12 to 6.

Mr. Hamilton said that they were fortified with the opinion of the Provincial Solicitor that the claims had no right in law, though they perhaps had some in equity ; that they conveyed no lights to the soil, and he thought that sufficient had fallen from speakers that night to convince any one of that fact. He considered that they were conferring a boon ou the holders themselves. He defended the government from the charge of imaiorality in breaking contracts, as there really existed none. As to the great amount of litigation wilh which they were threatened by one hou. Member, lie (Mr. Hajmilton) considered that one case tried before the Supreme Court would decide every claim.

Mr. Mookhodse moved that the Chairman report progress.

The motion was lost by 12 to 6

The Provincial Secretary said that he had not heard a case made to night by the legal gentlemen for these claims; which were merely right if pre-emption wasuow k sought to be turned iuto an indefeasible title ; but which really was terminable by effusion of time, and the termination of the powers of the Association. When the power to grant pasturage liceusesdied, then the right to grant the pre-emptive rights died also. In their desire to be just, the government had let ihe holders of these claims continue their powers of pre-emption on the renewed footing rather than to seem to set aside a supposed contract. Captain Westexra, in allusion to some remarks of the Provincial Secretary on the opinious expressed at public meetings out of doors, said that he was surprised to bear opinions in praise of public meetings from the hon. gentleman, as during a former part of this session, when the Public House Bill was.iv pvo-

gress, he bad expressed opinions entirely opposite to those he had just stated. The House then divided on the government clause, when it was carried by a majority of 11 to 7. The Chairman reported progress. The Speaker resumed. The House adjourned till Friday.