TRIAL Of P.C. WEBB.

Hokitika Guardian, 24 May 1917, Page 3

TRIAL Of P.C. WEBB.

Charge of Seditious Utterance. The Hearing Resumed. CHRISTCHURCH, May 2U On resuming this afternoon Sir John Findlay in opening the case for the defenoo said that accused’s case would bo a denial of the correctness of the words imputed to 'him, and a denial that what he did say wag seditious. Continuing Sir John Findlay said that an unqualified literal construction of “The War Regulations” would plao* in the hands of the Government an alrbifiary and despotic pdwer beyond the dreams of oven an Oriental Power, and abhorrent to the British pcopla’i idea of freedom. ADDRESSES OF COUNSEL.

At the hearing of the charges agam*t P.C. Webb M. P. to-day Mr. Raymond K.C. in opening the case said that if there was a seditious utterance having a seditious tendency then no matter wiliat the motives of defendant might jbo, those motives could not be taken into account. He was now regarding the matter from entirely the point of view of the safety of the State, and society. The utterance of a well intentioned man must be more fatal to the public that the utterance of an evil intentioned man, because the opinion of the formed would carry weigh# !where the opinions of the latter would not. He would not go the .question of motives, but would submit that they were perfectly irrevalent. Whatever the rights of the miners* might be. It was a question not of the right* of any individual, but of their duty to loyally observe the laws of the country and promote the interests of the

country in relation to its military and economic resources. This was clearly indicated : by the special legislation which had been passed by the Legislature under “The War Regulations.” Constable McMahon who took shorthand notes of part of Mr. Webb’s speech &aid h© had a certificate for 120 words a ininuto. fcSir John Findlay’s cross-examination was in the direction of establishing that Constable McMahon’s notes could not be accepted as a reliable report of the whole of Mr. Webb’s utterances. In opening for tlie defence Sir John Findlay said that according to the Crown’ ft definition of the War Regulations they were absolutely unqualified. Under such a definition a shrug of the shoulders was sufficient to have a man tried for sedition. If in the priv-

acy of his own homo he expressed certain opinions, he was liable to arrest and he hailed btfore a Court on a charge of sedition. Under Regulations 4 of the “War Regulations Act 1914” any utterance written or spoken in public or private against the Government, of New Zealand made the author liable to he sent to gaol for twelve months. That was* not the case under “The Crimes Act or common law of England. In New Zealand to-day unless the Court interpreted these regulations in a different light from the Crown, no man or woman in this country who criticised tho Governmeat was safe.

Further Particulars

Christchurch May 28 Constable MoMahoD, of Grsymontb, who reported the speech was crossexamined by Sir John Findlay very closely, and at considerable length with regard to bis shorthand notes. Witness considered 120 words a minute hia averege reliable speed. He would be surprised to hear that accused’s average in Hansard was 180 words per minute. Ha admitted that there were omissions in bia transcript. Sir John Findlay : “What v.aa your duty at the meeting ?” Witness: “To take a note of seditious utterance.” Sir John Findlay: “And what was not seditious in your opinion was not taken down fully ?” Witness: “No” Sir John Findlay : “If Webb used words not seditious, you were not primarily concerned with taking it down or transcribing it ?” Witness : “No.” John R. Wallace, editor of the “Greymonth Star,” who aleo took a note of the speech, said that Webb had used the words “The miners were fighting against conscription aud would go to gaol rather than shirk their duty.” Defendant had also said “They would gtrike a hard blow for freedom and liberty,” Sir John Findlay contended that if Regulation No 5 were right, it seemed that the Defence Department was too sacred for oriticiem even if free speech in Nsw Zealand perished. If Regulation 4 was to be literally interpreted, then the speakers at the meeting of protest in Dunedin including Mr Geo Fenwick* Dean Fitohett and the Mayor of Dunedin had rendered themeelves liable to imprisonment. It did'not matter how true the critioiam or how just the exposure, it was no defence if Mr Raymond’s contention was correot. Similarly under those regulations Dr Thacker could have been seat to gaol for his exposure of Trentham .as the death trap it wa3 at that time. Sir John Findlay contended that if Webb said no more than to explain what was the sentiment and the stand of the miners, then that was not sedition, Where a man was to be watched by the authorities, the watch-

ing should lake place by a man competent to repeat to the Crown law authorities the actual words ueed. How could hia Worship convict a man on such shorthand notes as they had from Constable McMahon ?

Sir John submitted that the case had already broken dowD, as MoMahon had admitted that he bad left out and altered words. If his Worship held that the strict interpretation put by Mr Raymond upon the regulations was correct then he (Sir John) would leave that Court satisfied that New Zealand was no longer a place where a man with freedom of spirit would care to live. Several experienced pressmen were called and examined as to their opinions of the value and reliability of Constable McMahon’s shorthand notes.

Th© case was adjourned till 10 a.m to-morrow

Accused Gives Evidence

> Christchurch, May 24 The trial ol P. C. Webb, M.P. for alleged sed.tion, w ,13-resumed this morning. Accused went into the box and was examined at coju’derable length by Sir John Findlay. He detailed hia interview with Sir James Alien regarding the Blackball strike, which commenced last November. He told Sir J. Allen then that the miners desired to be allowed to appeal by constitutional means against conscription. Sir James Allan told him that it was quite constitutional and legal to advocate the repeal of any Act of Parliament, so long as it. was done aiopg constitutional lines. -- He communicated this to the Miners Union, which advißed the men to go baok to work. Siuce theD, be had addressed a hundred meetings in opposition to aocsoription. He had Sir J Allen’s approval and consent to the liberty of apeeob, along constitutional linFS, regarding the Act. Government bad

never intimated that he was not at liierty to do so. When he spoke at Gieymonth on April 19 b, he was still under the impression that Government had no objection to bis advoo.scy of the repeal of tho Act, along constitutional line?. '' «*• * ■ ■Kv-^r Webb’s Evidence Continued »n—f-i Christchurch, May 24 Webb, ooutinning bis evidenoe, said in went to the West Coast with the Minister of Justice with the object of removing the restriction of the coal output, and settling the trouble. This restriction had been adopted because the S’ate had refused certain things the men were asking for. They had worked for three days, night and day, and the Minister finally concluded that the requests were reasonable and concessions were made, and trouble was averted in New Zealand. His help had beeu invoked by the Government for the settlement. In each spseeh agaias’ the Act be advocated its repeal, bai he said if Government had to enforce conscription it should take over the responsibilities of ibe men and provide for them in a proper manner. “I thiuk,” added Webb to Sir J. Findlay, “that you voiced the same opinions in your speech at Hastings.” To this Sir J. Fmc'liy replied—“l must admit it, but I hope it will not be used against me on my trial.”

Under Cross-Examination.

Christchurch, May 24 Webb continuing his evidence explained the various references in his Greymouth speooh. He said his allusion to tbe miners fighting for thousands who wete not sbla to fight for tbemeelve?, was a reference to the dependents o f the coneoripLcd mtn. It, would have bean ridiculous to have made a statement bearing the inference given it in the charge. Cross-examined by tho Crown’s counsel, Webb said he osrtainly thought any Government should prevent rebellion, and speeches tending to trouble in wartime. He did not think Government was entitled, at Buy time, to infringe the liberty and freedom of speech, or prevent people from honestly criticising the maladministration of the Government or the military forces. He hoped to have the Conscription Act repealed by constitutional means. Counsel asked—“ Were you ever on a platform appealing for recruits ? ” Webb replied—“ Never. If I were responsible for inducing one man to go to the front, and leaving dependents here, I would fee' morally obliged to take over that man’s responsibilities.”

FIRST CHARGE CONCLUDED.

Decision Temporarily ReservedChristchurch, May 24 x The Court reserved its decision in respect to tb6.Greymouth charge, until after the charge dealing with the Taylorville speech being heard this afternoon. WEBB CONVICTED EWE? On Greymouth Charge Sentenced to Three Months Christchurch, May 24 Wtbb was comcnitteci on the Greymouth charge and sentenced to three months’imprisonment, to date from

the time of hia arrest. Tht second charge is proceeding. THE COAL SOPPLY. Sir J- Allen’s Opinion. Christchurch May 24 Sir Jaa. Allen states that the West Coast miners probably will continue to work, He thinks they will play the game to the eod. Arrangements have been made for importing about 30,000 tons of coal per month from Newcastle, but an absolute necessity for economy still xist«.

Fire atMillerton Weltport, May 22 At 7,30 on Sunday evening, Mr T. W. Hodgson suffered a severe loss through having his five-roomed house and wash-house at Millertou destroyed by fire. Everything in the house was lost, including a lady’s gold wristlet watch aud a rifle, valued at £6 10/. Mr and Mtb Hodgson were visiting the parents of Mr Hodgson at the time of ih9 outbreak. They had left on the premises only a small fire, with which to dry some pit clothes. When the fire was discovered by neighbors it had too great a hold for them to save anything. It was fortunate that ths wind was not blowing ia the opposite direction B 3 the adjoining building, owned by Mr T. Gook, must then have been endangered. It it was, that building narrowly escaped. Insurances are £SO on the furniture and £llO on the house. Mr and Mrs Hodgson are heavy losers by the fire.

A Fatal Accident

Westport, May 22

Michael Dwyer, a member of a well known Charleston family, w&b accidentaliy killed on Monday morning, near MoMay’s siding, Cape Foulwind line. With hia brother-in-law, Robert Pollock, and Walter Low*on, deceased was engaged by the Pnblic Woiks Department falling a tree in the work of forming a road. The tree came down in an unexpected diieotion and fell on the bead of Dwyer, wbo was so severely injured lhi>t he died about 20 minutes later. Deceased was about 40 years of age. Deceased is a brother of Mr P. Dwyer of Thompson Street, Greymonth. May 23

At the inquest evidence was given that the meu forming a road for the Fublio Works Department, and in doing so, had to remove the stump of a tree some 20ft in length. They bad undermined it, and Politick went to cut away the remaining roots, at the same time warning the others to eland clear. The tree, instead of falling in the direction in which it was leaning, slipped down at tha root, and swang round in another direction, the top of it striking Dwyer on the heed whilst he was engaged removing a load of sand. First aid was quiokiy rendered, but ho passed away some twenty minutes after tbe accident. The Coroner returned a verdict of accidental death, no blame being attachable to anyone.

Appeal by Public Trustee.

Wellington, May 23 Before the Third Wellington Military Service Board the Public Trustee appealed on behalf of five members of ,tbß staff on the ground that if the. men are taken away some branches of the work of the Trust Office will broak down. Tbe Public Trustee (Dr Fiicbett) snd that ha gave an understanding that if the cases were adjourned for three months be would have others trained to take up the work these men were doing. Captain Baldwin, military representative Raid ths;t Dr Fitchett had said something similar three months ago. Dr Fitchetfe replied that an effort was being made in the direction indicated, but the system tried had rot. been successful. The board decided that it had no recommendation to make.

Harbors’ Conference Wellington, May 23 The Harbor Board has decided to reply to the secretary of tbe Harbors’ Association that the Board does not consider it advisable to hold the seventh Harbors’ Conference this year, and to forward to the executive of the association, oopies of remit* adopted by the board since last conference School of Pharmacy Wellington, May 23 The Pharmaoy Board Conference to-day considered a proposal for tb e establishment of a school of pharmaoy in Wellington at which student* should be compelled lo attend classes in technical subjects for six month?; but to take other subjects at the university. The confereoce thought that the Government should subsidise the school, and the principle contained in the proposal was affirmed by a small majority,