PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 17, Issue 1022, 20 May 1871, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

FRIDAY, MAY 19, 1871. The Council met at 3 p.m. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. Lieut.-Col. Lambert moved the adjournment of the house. It would be a fitting method of showing their sympathy and respect for a fellow mem ber now absent, who had sustained a severe domestic bereavement. The Council adjourned to 4 p.m. The Council resumed at 4 o'clock. Council Sitting-days. Mr A'Deane moved the suspension of Standing Order 2, in order to bring in a motion to the effect that Monday should be made a sitting day. Tt was very inconvenient to country members to have two bad days in one week, and his proposition, if carried, would still leave Saturday open. Lieut.-Col. Lambert seconded the motion. Mr Tanner thought the four days had always been found sufficient for the business. When he lived at Ruatani wha he had been in the habit of riding home on Saturdays, and back to town on the following Monday. Lieut -Col. Lambert said that every member did not possess such capacity for liding as the member for Havelock Some further discussion ensued, which, as ic assumed rather a personal character, was checked by the Speaker, who remarked that the members were too sensioive. The motion was at length agreed to, and Monday appointed a sitting-day. Place of Meeting. Mr Dolbel, pursuant to notice, mo\ ed— That in order to do away with the bono rarium of country member;', and to follow the economical policy proposed by the member for Napier, Mr S tton, it is resolved that the next meeting of this Council shall be held tit Waipawa Court-house, and that his Honor the Superintendent be requested to obtaiu permission f om the Chairman of Petty Sessions to occupy the building for the above purpose. —-He hoped the member for the town [Mi Sutton] would not be jealous at this attempt to carry his own policy a little further. The motive of that member in proposing the abolition of honorariums, was economy, and thus in their object the two propositions were identical, Waipawa was beyond a

doubt the proper place for the Council; it was a rising township, it possessed a Court-house suitable for the Councilchamber, and everything eke necessary. Mr Supton took objection to the motion on a point of order, which was overruled by the Speaker. Mr Colenso said the. Council would be obliged to acknowledge the justice of the proposition, and he could not help remarking how very effectually the member for Mohaka had turned the tables on the member for the town. The latter gentleman had no generalship- he rushed forward with proposals without reflecting upon the results which would follow if they were negatived. The present proposal, if carried out, would have one good effect—it would expelite the despatch of business. He did not think Waipawa would be more convenient than Napier for the majority of the members, or ho would heartily support the motion As it was, he recommended its withdrawal. Mr Sutton said the member for Mohaka might perhaps be following out; his policy, but he did not know hat he had initiated any The member for Mohaka at any rate had never had any policy except the Waitaha bridge. Tf the Council sat at Waipawa he ( Mr S ) would be little affected personally. He , would still be present in his place, and would not grumble Altogether, the motion before the Council was the most silly, absurd, and foolish proposition he had ever seen on the order paper * Mr A'Deane said the member for Mohaka must now have gained his object. He of course intended his motion as an argumentum ad absurdwn, and alter the siciia'ce which the member for the town had professed himself ready to make, the motion might very well be withdrawn. Lieut.-Col. Lambert said it was„no doubt very desirable to get t id of the honorarium, and the member for Mohaka deserved credit for so completely taking the wind out of the sails of the member for the town. Having done so, perhaps his best course would be to withdraw the motion. Mr DoLBiiL replied. The member for the town would not admit having a policy ; but if he had a file of local papers in his hand he could read a few extracts from that gentleman's remaiks on the hustings when he opposed T he payment of country members. If the motion wa* so foolish, why should the member for the town get so excited about it 1 That member, who lived opposite the door of the Council Chamber, actually reproached country members in the street with drawing their 12s 6d per day. Such conduct was monstrous. He had been recommended \erv generally to withdraw his motion, but he was half inclined to let it go tc the vote, by which means he could tesi the opinion of the Council on the subject. The member for the town had said that be was quite ready to go to Waipawa ; but he thought if the Council really sat there he would see things in a diffeient light. That gentleman's resignation would in that, case soon appear in the papers, and there would, be some new blood in the UounciL (Laughter.) Upon the whole, with the consent of the Council, he would withdraw his motion;. The question for withdrawal was then put, but Mr Sutton exeicising his right of the motion was put, and carried on a division, to the great amusement of the house and the public. The following was the division list :- Ayes, B:—Messrs. Doibel, A'Deane, Colenso, Kennedy, Rhode-, Lambert, Johnson, and Tiffen. Noes, 6 .—Messrs Sutton, Ormond, Russell, Tanner, Kinross, and Bridge. Limitation of Interest, Mr Colenso moved that the House go into committee on the resolutions standing in his name [as published in the limes of Monday last.] The motion for a committee being negatived, the resolutions came before the Council in the ordinary manner. Mr Colenso made a long and able speech, of which our space will only permit of a brief abstract. He said that one of his reasons for moving for a committee was that the resolutions might be taken seriatim, and discussed much more freely than in open Council, and another reason was that the Council might have the assistance of the Speaker in discussing the question,

He had not spoken on the subject 1o .any other members of the Council, m my ol" whom were very deeply interested in the subject of these resolutions ; he had thought it best not to do so. He begged to apologise for inserting figures where ic was customary to lea\e blanks to be filled by the Council He trusted that those member* who had read his resolutions would recognize the principle of equity whLh ran through them all. He believed that if the principles there laid down could be carried out, the Colony would be benefitted in a far greater measure than by the money it purposed borrowing—that was, if other provinces suffered in the same degree as Hawke's Bay. His resolutions would meet with opposition from both dis honorable and honorable motives. Jn the first place, they were a direct blow .at the rich man—the money lender, and the rich man had many friends. This class would oppose him. There were those indirectly interested, and altogether the name;- of those who would oppose him from dishonorable and interested motives was legion. Of those who would oppose him from honorable motives, there were those who believed that this scheme would affect the credit of the Colony, and those who believed the Colony could not do it—that such a measure would be ultra vires. He could not agree with either of these opinions There were others, who, while they would hail such an enactment, could not conscientiously give their support to it, having entered into engagements at higher rates. As to the power, he believed Parliament to be omnipotent in such matters, and English history would show that Parliament had often taken the matter in hand before, Up to the time of Henry VIII, it vvas illegal to charge interest, but during the reign of that monarch, it was allowed, and an act was passed, fixing 10 per cent, as the limit. When Kdward VI came to the throne, this Act was at once overthrown, and into -est again done away with. In the reign of James 1 it was again legalized. In .hi time of Cromwell it was reduced to 6 per cent, and this Act remained in force until after the llestoration. The next law on the subject was the famous statute of Queen Anne, reducing the rate to 5 per cent, and providing that all existing contracts above that sum should be null and void, and that .all lenders persisting in demanding interest above that sum, should forfeit three times the amount they had gained This ■'■ ct remained in force until a very recent date. Let no one, then, say that a Parliament would exceed its powers by legislating on such subjects. Some might object on the ground of the hardship to the lender of any legal inter ference. He would relate what took place in 1864, when the new tariff bill was under consideration. Merchants all over the Colony would have given almost anything to know what were the proposed provisions of that Act, but the Government took every means' if) prevont them. Steamers were laid under an embargo, and up to 4 p,m none but the sworn Ministers of the Colony knew anything of the nature of the propositions. At that hour members were informed that there was important work before them, and that thev might not leave the house. The ..standing orders were suspended, the bill brought in, discussed, committed, and passed through all its stages, even to receiving the Governor's signature, before midnight, information "was at once forwarded to all the Custom-house otiicers throughout the Colony. One man in Auckland had told him (Mr C.) that he had lost £9,000 by that night's work The whole matter turned upon the word " unanimously," It would be enough for him if a single member raised his voice against these resolutions. In committee many things could : have been alteied which could not be dealt with in the house. He had now to refer to some criticisms of his proposals which he had read. In the hr.-t place, those who ciiticised him did not appear to have read, much less have ' studied, the resolutions, He had been j accused of advocating repudiation-a most unwarranted charge One writer , had characterised the resolutions as "pre- , posterous." Before writing that word he should have referred to fiis diction- j ary. "Preposterous" meant something '

against nature or against reason, and the term would certainly not apply to his resolutions. In an early number of th° Herald a writer said that a news paper wouid always be either a blessing : or a curse. Well and uprightly con- ' ducted, a great blessing ; but in the i hands of venal hacks, one of the curses ! of civilization. This last remark had I been fully verified by an article on his | motion in a local paper called the Daily j Telegraph. He could point out a strange coincidence in this case. The I resolution.* had been a week before the j public, but it was not till yesterday ! evening that anything on the subject appeared in that paper—long after it had been noted and remarked upon by both the other papers The director of tha f paper had nothing to do but to seek out subjects on which to viite, yet had passed this matter over in silence for a week. Was he all that time hatching the article, or did it arrive by the Waipukurau mail the previous evening ? The coincidence of the arrival of the mail and the appearance of the article was at least peculiar. The i gross perversion of facts and the low ! scurrility it contained were so manifest that he had no need to speak further of them. Mr Rhodes seconded the motion. The speaker had gren a long dissertation on parliamentary precedents, as though they were necessarily worthy of being followed—forgetting, apparently, that in the reigns of some kings worth 1 ess paper and even base metals were made legal currency One cele bra ted king, for revenue purposes, adopted the ingenious expedient of drawing, one by one, the teeth of a wealthy but unfortunate captive, and compelling him each lime to pay handsomely for being allowed to retain the remainder. Yet, if the honorable member proposed the re introduction of the tooth drawing system, there would not be the remotest chance of its being adopied. The member meant well, no doubt, but had taken a v j ry mistaken cour-e. The value of money, like any other commodity, must find its level without auv legislative interference. To hi:-- own knoAvledge, many compromises had been made between debtors and creditors. Capitalists had in many instances reduced their interest to 5 and 6 per cent., and he knew of no instances where more than 8 per cent, was charged. He would oppose the motion, as being thoroughly unpractical. Mr Bridge said that if the mover had considered the result of the-e resolutions in the old country he would not have brought them forward. English capitalists would at once conclude that a community which would repudiate private obligations would do the same with public ones, and our credit would be accordingly damaged. He would next, perhaps bring forward a measure prohibiting foreclosure by mortgagees. Mr Colbnso protested against being so misrepresented. Mr Keslvedy could not look at it otherwise than as repudiation, and would oppose it. Mr Tanjter protested against this view of the matter. Repudiation was not in any way iir-01-ed. It was quite within the province of a Parliament to fix a rate of interest. Repudiation, if there was any, would be the act of those who took advantage of the law to get out of prior obligations. Those liable to heavy interest found it no joke, and the member for the town need not have apologized for bringing this matter forward. He had acted for'the benefit of his fellow-men, and their thanks were due to him ; more especially as he had himself set the example of lowering interest. He seemed to have forgotten the case of mortgages, in which ample security was generally given for the high rates of interest originally agreed on No law could affect these agreements. Besides, the principle should work in both diie<-tions. If from the discovery of a gold-Held or other un foreseen cause, properly were suddenly to rise in value, would borrowers consent to have the rate.- of interest proportionately raised ? Oerta'.nly not He agreed with the resolutions as far as clause 4, but no further As for the 2 per cent to the Provincial O»overnment on all money borrowed, if ii were possible to obtain it, that would indeed be a panncea for our difficulties. We might then have a railway to the 70-

milf bu-h, and till the bush with insectivorous birds The inenher who brought in this proposition always reminded him of'a very plucky school-boy, who lined to be the only one who could ask the master for a half-holiday, or bring forward any other proposition attended with considerable risk. As for the statement by the member for Clive, that 8 per cent, was the usual rate in this Province, he could promise that gentleman plenty of applications if he would only lend money at that rate of interest. Mr Si'TTOX said the proposals were simply absurd. What had the Provincial Government to do with moneylending 1 The matter was quite out of the province of the Council. Nothing would prevent lenders getting 20 per cent, if the borrowers would only pay it. Mr A'Deane snid he was sorry that members had entered so much into discussion on the subject when the mover had wished it to be simply accepted or rejected at once on its merits. The motion v-as then put and negatived on the voices, and the Council adjourned to 7 p.m.