PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 13, Issue 688, 3 June 1869, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

MONDAY, MAT 24. 1869. [Proceedings of this day continued from our y, PRIVILEGE. Mr Carlyon raised a question of privilege. On Friday he had gi Ve a notice of motion, which h a j vanished from the notice paper, ft complained also of the' minm* book and the report in the Times %, being inaccurate in stating that U amendment had been shelved by fk previous question; and stated \m belief that the previous question could not be used in that manner He moved that, a certain pass-age fo the minute book should be erased The Speaker said that the min.i% book, being daily read and confirmed by the Council, could not now b 8 altered. Mr Carlyon-maintained that bia motion had not lapsed, but gave notice of a similar one for next sitting day. THE FINANCE RESOLUTIONS. Mr Buchanan said it had been his intention to allow his resolution to lapse, and give notice of them for next sitting-(lny, a course which, it was quite competent for him to adopt. The Council would see that it was not for lack of expedients that he now allowed them to coma forward. As he regarded the resold tions, he was quite prepared to ac« cept them as decisive as to the financial policy of the Government, and if the Council rejected them, the Government would not meet with further opposition from him. He meant to make this a test-motion; and in doing so trusted that the member* would see the gravity of the question. There was no use in postponing the evil—perhaps he he should call it good— day in which the long-spoken-of changes were to take place—it was no use to shut our eyes to the fact that, the revenues of the province having gone, the G overnment \\ as being carried on on borrowed money. His first resolution was:—

1. That funds derived from the sale of land, purchased with borrowed money, ought to be devoted exclusively to the improvement of roids and' the construction of necessary public works. —When the Loan Act of 1863 was passed the preamble set forth that the money was to be to the purchase of land, immigration, and certain public works—it was certainly never contemplated by the Council chat any portion of the .£60,000 thence derived was to go to carrying on the ordinary establishments of the Province. This act was amended so recently as last session. The preamble of the amendment act set forth that there being a sum of £28,000 remaining of the loan, it was desirable to appropriate a portion of it in a manner different from that set forth in the oiiginal Act, and proceeded to specify the various public works, &c, to which it was to be des oted. Such being the case he could not understand the present course of the Government. If they had come down with a substantive proposition to repeal the previous acts, he could have understood them ; but as they had not done so the action he had taken was forced upon him. He noticed in the estimate of revenue £3,000 to be derived from rents and sales of land in the Hikutoto Block; refund of immigrants' promissory notes, £1,500, and other items of borrowed means to the extent altogether of £II,OOO, which were to be expended in canying on the Government. If this was to be done, let it not be done illegally and by a side-wind. Do not violate the existing Acts by appropriating to general objects funds set apart for special purposes; but repeal the Acts openly and in a straightforward manner. He now came to his second resolution : 2. That any interference by the Government with the purposes to which the balance £28,000 of the provincial loan has been appropriated, except by legislation of the Council, and repeal of the " Loan Appropriation Act, 1868," and of Hi© resolution on which it is based, is undesirable, as well as illegal. —Last session, previous to the Loan Appropriation Act being passed a resolution containing a lengthy string of objects to which the balance of the loan should be applied was passed by the Council. He did not know

that any blame attached to the Government for not carrying out their or icrinal intentions; but if these e ° a tions were not to be undertaken Jj e y should be discussed openly in detail, and not got rid of in this mysterious manner. His third resolution referred to immigration : 3 That all suras of money recovered on account of immigration be passed to a special funds »nd held unapplicable to expenditure for general purposes.

would find, on referring to the proceedings of last session, that it tfiis decided that the repayments by immigrants should be set apart + o form the nucleus of a fund for immigration purposes. The Council might now he of opinion that this was not desirable; but if so, let them record j, distinct vote to that effect. The Government had contrived to get their financial schemes into such a maze that it was almost impossible to find a clue. If these resolutions Tvere adopted the Council might have Home idea how to proceed for the future.

Mr Ojrmond said that in the first place he -vished to account for his apparent discourtesy in opposing the request of the mover of these resolutions. The meeting of the General Assembly was close at hand, and if the discussion of these resohitions was deferred to next day it would add two days to the length of the session. The Council would agree with him that in this present crisis it was of great necessity that the representatives of the Province in the General Assembly should he present. At any ordinary time the Government would at once have acceded to the member's request. No doubt, taking these resolutions in the abstract, it was difficult to say anything against them—the principles were those which evervone would uphold; but the mover could not escape from the consequences which would result from their being agreed to. To have been consistent, however, the hon. gentleman who introduced these resolutions should have done so when he first entered the Council, for nearly all the lands in the Province had been purchased with b>rrowed money—borrowed by the Province of Wellington at the time it included Hawke's Hay. He knew of no scheme better than that of the Finance Committee, which had been original 1 y submitted to them by the Government. If these resolutions were adopted, the Council would have to initiate an entirely new scheme of raising money for the immediate requirements of the Province. He took a more practical view of the matter than the member for the Country District. By the scheme proposed by the Government we would be able for this year efficiently to perform all public works, and carry out our other requirements, but if we adopted the hon. gentletleman's ideas we would have no other means left open to us but direct taxation—taxes for police, for jails, road taxes, and many other-. His own opinion was that of all things, direct taxation was the most to be avoided in the present state of the Province. As for the .£28,000 which had been devoted to specific purposes by Act of the Council, he would remark that the Superintendent had to da. 7 given notice of a bill to repeal that act. So far as regarded immigration, he believed a rcheme was about to be instituted by whioh the General Government would| take the entire control of immigra-l hon for the Colony, and our wants in. that respect would then be provided for without any expenditure on our part. Putting aside the impossibility of the propositions now before them, he thought we should, &s long as possible keep the taxga tnerer from the door. He wouldj n»o\e as an amendment— That all the words after " That" in the first "le be omitted, and the following inserted : " in *«eopinion of the Council the recommendations: Wntained in the report of the Finance Committee ar e ia accordance with the requirements of the Evince, and that the necessary steps should be Wen to give effect thereto." Mr Tanner, agreed with the memfor Porangahau in all the points' tahadspoken of except the last. He' thought the land revenue this year, *oald fall very short of the estimate, ! ail d though we had borrowed money ® kll back on this year, it would

soon come to an end, and what should we do for the next year 1 As for the second resolution, if nothing more than the principle was involved, the Council would no doubt very readily affirm it, but the consequence must also be considered. There was no question of the correctness of the principle, but it must give way to expediency, to which the Province had often been compelled to bend. No doubt the money set apart by the Council to special purposes had been diverted to other objects by the Government, and this course was one which could hardly be defended. It reminded him of the clerk or apprentice who takes his master's money from the till to use it for his own pressing necessities, with a perfectly honest intention of replacing it beforej it can possibly be missed, and who has not been able to do so. He did not wish to say that the Government were exactly in this position, but: thought the principle on which they, had acted was the same. He trusted! that this would not be made a precedent, and that the Government would guard as much as possible; against applying special funds to general purposes. As regards the immigration fund, he did not like to see it interfered with, though he thought at present there was little need for ic. The member for Porangahau had suggested that the General Government were likely to take the subject in hand; bur he thought if they did this small Province would get a very small proportion of. immigrants. It would goto the wall altogether. He wa* not prepared to support the motion of the member for the Country Dis tricts. Mr A'Deane could not give a silent vote on this subject. He thought that the principle of the resolutions was strictly correct. He had felt very strongly on the subject of the third resolution —the impolicy of usino- immigration funds for general purposes ; but he now thought that the General Government, in taking the matter into their own hands, had made a step in the right direction This fact, as referred to by the member for Porangahau, had removed his strongest; objection on this point. He thought that in their financial poliey they had taken the only course open to them, and however he disapproved of the principle, he was perfectly sure there was little use in making them promise never to do it again. He should support the amendment. Licut.-Col. Lambert would only speak a few words , but he would commence where the last speaker had left off. He did not approve of staving off the inevitable change—we had better come to the point at once. The Governnient were evidently opposing the member for the Country District by a side-wind. The loan had been raised for specific purposes,' and none of the speakers had attempted to deny that it. had been improperly and wrongly made use of. He maintained that without expressly repealing their former Act jtheCouncil would stultify themselves by authorising the manner in which it hid been expended. The parallel di awn by the member for Te Aute, of the defaulting Bank clerk, was very much to The point; and the Cotmcil knew very well how such a clerk would be treated. It seemed as if the object of the Government was to hoodwink the Council, and [dispose of the public money without I its knowledge or authority. As for 'the statement of the member for Po'rangahau ahout a General Government scheme of immigration, that was merely hearsay, and he did not attach any weight to it whatever. J He would support the resolutions of the member for the Country District, with which he fully agreed in every respect. Mr Buchanan - said he had not expected +o find the Government meet his resolutions in such a way as they had done ; it was simply placing the matter in a false light. For a Government to bring in such an amendment to the motion of a private member was a course he had never before seen adopted, and was unworthy of the member for Pora ngahau. The statements about direct taxation were disingenuous. There had not been a word from his

lips about; additional taxation of any kind; he did not expect it. It did not follow that if these resolutions were carried ont direct taxation would e to be resorted to instanter —in fact, he thought he could see very plainly how it could be avoided, and he utterly disclaimed having ever intended it. The Government proposition was merely to enable them to hold on as long as there remained a little moisture in the orange they had been sucking for years —that was its meaning, and nothing else. Both sides of the house fully agreed with the beauty of the principles contained in his resolutions, but every one seemed to fear their effects. His own idea was that if anything was good in principle it was also good in practice. If these resolutions were affirmed, what would follow 1 Simply that the loan would be appropriated to the purposes tor which it was borrowed, instead of being applied to purposes unsanctioned by the Council. The only principle which actuated the gentlemen opposite was the one of which we had often experience in prayers in the Scotch kirk, —"O Lord, bend us peace in our time." Only let them have peace while the money lasted, and after that the members might tear each other to pieces, or impose whatever taxes they liked for anything they would care. If we were in difficulty the best plan was to face it at once. How long was the settlement of the difficulty to be deferred 1 For the last two or three years excuse |after excuse had been made. Sometimes it was that alterations would be made by the General Assembly ; this year direct taxation would result if any modification was made in the Government scheme; and next year it would be something else. In fact, like Micawber, the present Government were just waiting for what may turn up. So far as assisted immigration was concerned, he did not think the principle good, but while the law existed let them abide by it. He hoped that gentlemen on both sides of the house would vote against the amendment, whether they opposed his resolutions or not.

The amendment " That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question,' 1 was then put and negatived on a division, the ayes being Messrs. Buchanan, Carlyon, and Lambert. The resolutions were then shelved by Mr Ormond's amendment being carried. WAYS AND MEANS. The Council vent into Committee of Ways and Means, Mr Sutton having been elected Chairman of Committees pro tern. Mr Buchanan said that the Revenue Sheet should be taken into serious consideration. The Land Revenue of £5,500 he thought was an over-estimate, for he did not bslieve more than <£4,000 would be derived from that source. The Loan, lie had no doubt, would be still further trenched upon during the ensuing year The estimate of receipts from immigrants during the year was £1,500; but he did not think that with all the pressure the Government might bring to bear, more than £I,OOO would be obtained. Then there was the refund fiom the General Government for the survey of native land. He hoped they might get it, and also that surveys in future inio-ht be more reliable than the trigonometrical survey, which, it was well known, had been tested and' found utterly worthless. If it was! not so late, in the session, he would 1 have moved that the papers be laid on the table. [Mr M'Lean : That! survey was tested hy an able survey or, and found perfectly correct.] 1 I After this statement by his Honor he; felt it his duty to move foi the papers, I which he would do on the following day, when he hoped he would satisfy the Council of the correctness of his statement - that the verification base, on being tested, was *bimd to be utterly worthless. He thought that lh:-re was far too much rose-color in the estimates, that the statements were hardly fair; and considered that £9,000 would be the extent of the revenue for tlie ensuing year. Yet for this they intended to maim tain establishment sufficient for a Province with a revenue of £90,000.

The Council then adjourned till 7.30. In the evening sitting some further business was done in Committee, and the House adjourned to next sitting-day.

TUESDAY, MAT 25, 1869. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present ; —All the members except Colonel Whitmore. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. UNAUTHORIZED EXPENDITURE. Mr Ferard moved— That a select committee be appointed to consider and report to the Council as to the propriety of the various items of expenditure incurred, without the appropriation of the Council, since the passing: of the "Credit Act, 1868;" and also to examine and report upon such of the items of expenditure defrayed out of monies voted for contingencies during the present financial year, as may seem to them to require the attention of the Council. Such committeeto consist of Messrs Ormond, Buchanan, Lambert, Locke, and the mover. Report to be brought up on Thursday next. —The idea of this motion*" had occurred to him last session, when, just at its clo«e, the general desire being to terminate the business as quickly os possible, they were suddenly asked to pass a Credit Act. No time was allowed for consideration of the items, the members of the General Assembly being so anxious to leave the Province to attend to their legislative duties. Itj was with a view of preventing a recurrence of these proceedings that he now brought forward this motion, for he held that the Council did not perform its duty if it omitted to examine strictly into those miscellaneous expenses by which so large a sum of money was annually made away with. With the ample sum yearly voted for miscellaneous contingencies he could not but think that much of this illegal expenditure might be avoided, and that the matter should be well looked into. The Government owed a late servant c£3l for the preparation of certain addresses, and he wished to know whether it had been paid or not. Mr Sutton seconded the motion. Mr M'Lean said he had no objection to the items being subjected to the strictest scrutiny. The various items had, however, been published quarterly in tbe Gazette for ihe information of members and the public. He would suggest that his own name should be substituted for that of the member for Porangahau. Mr Ferard said that if the Superintendent's name was to be inserted, he should prefer it substituted for his own • but he thought it a most extraordinary piece of taste for that gentleman to ask to have his name , placed on a committee to examine into and criticise expenditure he had himself incurred. Mr Ormond said he had more work now than he was able to attend to and enough to keep him employed till the end of the session, and he hoped the Council would take his name off the committee. Mr Ferard said that as the Council generally seemed to take no interest in the matter, he would ask leave to withdraw the motion. Leave being granted, the motion was withdrawn.

CREDIT ACT. This bill was brought in by Mr M'Lean, read a first time, and ordered to be printed. The second reading was fixed for Wednesday. HALTING-PLACES FOR STOCK. Lieut.-Col. Lambert moved— That his Honor the Superintendent will be jpleased to inform the Council what land or lands I have been purchased on the various roads for the ■ purpose of halting-places for bullock-drays, cattle, sheep, &c.; and if any bush land has been secured , near Te Aute, for the purpose of obtaining timber j for repairs of bridges. ;—His Honor had last session promised to carry out these objects, the !desirability of which was generally 'admitted. Mr M'Lean said that no land had been as yet obtained for these purposes. Mr Locke had attempted to acquire several suitable portions, but in some cases the natives had no title, and in others they placed too high a value on the land. Lieut.-Col Lambert said it was much to be regretted. Mr Ferard could see no more reason why the Government should provide halting places for stoek than houses of accommodation for footpassengers.

Lieut.-Col. Lambert rose to order. The reply having been made, it was not competent to continue the discussion. Mr Buchanan apprehended that the notice on the paper was simply a question, on which discussion could not he taken. Mr Ferard maintained that he was in order The member for "Waipukuraii had not given any time for members to speak on the subject. The Speaker ruled that the member tor Waipukuraii having spoken in reply, the member for the Town was out of order. The gallant member should have allowed a little more time before replying. Mr Ferard would submit to the Speaker's decision; but was not to bo deprived of his right of free speech in this manner. He would give notice of motion on the subject for next sitting-day.

Heavy Ratn has fallen during the last 24 hows. The s.s. Ahuriri will not leave for Auckland till 1 o'clock to-morrow morning. Strangers in the House.—ln the Provincial Council on Friday evening, in committee on the Artesian Well Bill, Mr Rhodes drew the attention of the Chairman to the fact that .strangers were in the House. [The Chairman (Mr Sutton) said he had no power to interfere with them, when Mr Rhodes moved that the Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again presently. This was accordingly done, and on the Speaker resuming the chair, Mr Rhodes drew his attention to the presence of strangers. The Speaker,, of course, had no option but to order the public to withdraw, which they accordingly did, testifying their displeasure at the member for Clive as they left by hissing and other signs of disapprobation. There was no apparent reason for this singular course, and we believe that after a sharp discussion with closed doors, the Council decided by a vote upon the admission of the public, who had, however, by this time almost entirely dispersed.