New Zealand Parliament. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. THURSDAY, 7th SEPTEMBER. THE LATE DEBATE ON SEPARATION.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 6, Issue 308, 21 September 1865, Page 2

New Zealand Parliament. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. THURSDAY, 7th SEPTEMBER. THE LATE DEBATE ON SEPARATION.

The following is a true copy of the speech of the hon. member for Napier, promised by ns in our issue of Thursday last, and which has been kindly placed at our disposal by Mr Colenso himself. We commend it to the careful perusal of our readers: — Mr Colenso said—This was one of the most important subjects that had yet been brought before them; one on which he could not give a silent vote; —one which he approached with sorrow, He considered this question of separation as the inevitable consequence of that ill-advised step taken by the Ministry last year. He would ask those who spoke so strongly against the introducers of this subject,—who it was that set the stone a-rolling ? and when did the crv for separation commence ? The House would pardon him if he reminded them that ho himself (with others) had predicted, in the session of 1863, that separation would assuredly follow the then removal of the seat of government. At that time he was against separation: he shrank from it: his word then was—(as those would recollect who were then in the House,) “The Colony one and undivided ! ’’—and such was the opinion of the constituency he had the honor to represent; as expressed by them (and advocated by himself) in a large public meeting held at Napier some eight months back. He feared, however, that such an opinion did not now obtain—at least not so largely. For his own part, he was obliged to own that his views had been changed,—and he felt that to do justice to the Colony and to the North Island in particular he must vote (if he voted at all) for separation; which, however, he did reluctantly. The hon. member for * (Mr Cos) had said,—“ The Auckland members alone have spoken; the other Northern members made no sign!” Hence he (Mr C.) felt called on to rise at this period of the debate and speak. He would, in reply to that hon. member, say,—look at and consider the position of the Taranaki members in that House. Taranaki returned three members, all of whom were in the Ministry ! (No, from Major Atkinson.) The hon. the Defence Minister said, No; but he (Mr C.) re-asserted it; it could not be denied: that was the reason of Taranaki “ making no sign.” Were Taranaki members free (as they once were,) no doubt Taranaki would speak. The Ministry had said, they considered this question as a want of confidence, or a ministerial question ; for this he (Mr C) was sorry—he, however, could not view it as such ; it ought not to be so considered by them. He called upon hon. members to consider the Province of Auckland, who now sought separation. That large province represented twothirds of the white, and three-fourths of the Maori population of the Island, and contained half of its area: and surely deserved far better treatment than it had.received from the present Government. In Auckland asking for separation, she knew what she asked for ; she had considered it well; and her people had considered it—hence those petitions, of which this House and Colony had heard, signed by thousands, and agreed to as by one man, for separation. And if this separation could be given by this House this night (which it would not) it would not be immediate and final (as some had supposed) but merely initiative and preliminary ; —there would yet remain much to be done—both here and at home with the Imperial Government —ere separation could be effected. Separation, lie confessed, was an ugly thing; one that could not be urged on its own merits. Of two evils they choose the least. Hawke’s Bay could not confide in the policy of the present Government, and particularly that of the present Native Minister. The House had to thank the hon. member for Dunedin (Mr Vogel) for his motion, which was the cause of the Hill newly introduced by the Colonial Treasurer, by which nine-sixteenths of the Customs Eevenue was to be secured to the Provinces. While he (Mr C.) thus spoke his thoughts of the present Ministry, he hoped he should not be misunderstood : ho bad a very high opinion of the hon, the Premier—his ingenuousness and good gentlemanly qualities are too well known to all; but history also told us of one of our British classic essayists (Mr Addison) who had held a high office connected with the Ministry of that day, but for which he was too refined. He believed that what the Colony wanted was men of sterner stuff—of the Oliver Cromwell type (hear, hear) to get them out of their difficulties. Above all he feared—in this crisis of the affairs of the Colony—anything like visionary theories, and dilletanti government, —of the Maoris especially. And he confessed he saw little or nothing really practical emanating from this Government, and this it was which tended to bias him towards voting for separation. He would psrtcdarly call the attention of Southern Members to what he had to say ; he wished they would seek fully to inform themselves as to Maori matters, as they voted upon them (in common with the Northern members,) and while such Maori matters were of little consequence, or “real bores” to them, they were really matters of life and death to Northern Island settlers; this, to the North Island colonists, was a great grievance. Practical men among them saw that they (the Northern members) could carry nothing: in fact that it was useless to attempt to do so : that they were even snubbed and twitted for speaking their honest convictions : and therefore they went in for separation ; so that they might be left to govern themselves before they became utterly ruined. He would put a case by way of illustration : suppose he (Mr C.) undertook the management of the gold fields, or the erection of the telegraph in the Southern Island; or (to bring it nearer home) the completion of the wharf, &c., here in Wellington ; did they think such would —such could be performed well and sat isfactorily ? Now that was much the case with the Northern Island and the Maoris: Southern men, who know nothing of the Maori, were set to govern them supported by Southern votes, at an enormous and never-ending expense, and increase of taxation. The North had no confidence in the present Native

Minister, Ho (Mr G.) could only judge of the sack by the “ sample” they had been favored with. Look at those Bills: —the Outlying Police, —the Native Commission—and the cumbrous Native Land Bills; were those such measures as in the opinion of practical men, who knew the Maoris and their wants, were likely to be productive of 8 "7 good ? Look again at the proclamations of this day, in which all murders and all other high crimes were forgiven— pardoned! Was that the way to benefit the North Island, and to govern the Maoris, —to bring about an end to such abominations, and to cause the Northern Island settlers and the Maori to dwell peaceably together P And then, most unfortunately, from what was supposed to bo the more practical part of the present Ministry, the measures were little better ; he instanced the Militia Bill, introduced by a practical man, but altogether unsuitable to the real wants of the Northern Island. That Bill, he believed, would, if it became law, be the cause’ of much discontent and evil, and of many leaving the Northern Provinces. In it, as in the Masters and Servants Bill, there seemed to be the same underlying sentiment, (if he might so speak), viz., a not knowing what was really required—and a thinking too lightly of the mass of the people. Then there was the Representation Bill; which, he thought, went to make matters worse; which gave to the House fifteen additional members and all to the Southern Island! Would it not have been better to give to the two Islands (seeing they were so nearly alike in area, and population, &0., &c.,) an equal representation in that House, or nearly so? Then there was so much of bitter feeling continually shewn by the Ministry against Auckland, and against all who supported her. The name of General Cameron had been mentioned during this debate ; he (Mr C.) would also state his opinion concerning the gallant old General. He well recollected when himself and the whole Colony was moved as one man to admiration at hearing of the brave bearing of the General at the heights of;Koheroa! There, when the bullets flew around his men like bailed they momentarily wavered, the old man waving his cap charged conspicuously at their head and they routed their foes. That dashing action caused him (Mr C.) and many others to lore the Gen eral; but he confessed he loved the old General yet more, when he read the manly, open, honest letter he had written to the Ministry concerning their strange and extensive proceedings (hear, hear,; He (Mr C.) fully went with the General in that matter; and he thanked God that they had had (at least) one honest man among them who had dared to teil the Ministry the truthful convictions of his mind. That was “ the head and front of his offendingand so he too was cried down. The whole, however, of that Whanganni campaign would yet hare to be enquired into, when new revelations would no doubt arise. As to Separation, he (Mr C.) confessed lie disliked it; ho should vote for it reluctantly ; but he saw no other way out of their enormous growing evils. Through Separation the Northern Island would look after her own peculiar interests, and the Southern Island after hers, —and both work for the best: through Separation the present nine Governments would be swept away, and a less expensive and far more suitable form of government —comprising two smaller General Governments with Municipalities for outlying districts—would be substituted. And he, further hoped, that the proposed Separation would, after all, be one more of name than reality. He knew, however, they would not carry it this Session ; they did not expect to do so ; still, it was only a work of time. It contained a living germ, a real truth, which could not die, would be sure to evolve, and therefore he should vote for Separation. (Hear, hear.)

THURSDAY, Uih SEPTEMBER. MAORI MURDERERS. Mr Couenso moved, — “ That in the opinion of this house it is most desirable that it should be fully informed as to the reasons why certain persons of the Maori Race, guilty at various times and in divers places of the barbarous murder of more than twenty English Settlers (comprising men, women, and children), were declared, in a Proclamation dated the 2nd instant, to bo fully pardoned;—seeing that such murderers were specially exempted in the Proclamation of October 25th, and again in another of December 17th, 1864; that against some of them verdicts of “ Wilful Murder” have been returned by several Coroners’ Juries; and that this House is in possession of no papersnorinforraation which, initspresent opinion, could have sanctioned such a proceeding.” Ho rose as an advocate for innocent blood, and in doing so he was supported not only by the law of his country, but also by proclamation from different Governments. There was a vengeance which had always been looked for, and that was retribution for vile crimes committed. In the proclamation which had been issued within the last few days he was struck with the great difference between it and former proclamations. In the proclamation of the 2nd September, the Governor said he would not punish any except those who had been engaged in the murders of certain six natives and six Europeans, all others were to be exempt. There were some fiends in human shape who had committed most horrible murders as recently as 1862, and the proclamation assured them tiiat they would never be punished. Then in 1863 a proclamation was issued stating that all who committed crimes, .especially murder, would be punished. Here were contradictory proclamations which would make the natives laugh at us. In a proclamation as late as October, about 18 or 20 persons were mentioned' as not to be forgiven, and now this last proclamation stated that they were exempt from punishment. A proclamation had also been sent out as late as. December last, since the Weld Ministry took office, stating that pardon would be withheld from the murderers of women and children, and the traitorous murderers of unarmed men. He would like to ask the hon. the Attorney-General whether in law justice could be put aside by proclamation ? At the time that this late proclamation was written declaring pardon to certain murderers, those very murderers were before Bir George Arney

the Chief Justice of the colony, for the murder of Job Hamlin. Were these murderers to be set at large at once on account of this proclamation, as the murder of Mr Hamlin was not mentioned therein, although the accused murderers might be convicted of the crime ? Would not this last proclamation have a tendency to incite the natives to fresh crimes, when they saw that murderers were going unscathed. Then as to the outlying settlers they would see that they had lost the protection of law by this proclamation. What would they think at home, when they heard that the murderers of innocent men, against whom verdicts had been found, and, who could be identified, were to be thus allowed to go free and unpunished ? This was not the way to produce peace and happiness in the country.

Mr Creighton seconded the motion. The Hon. the Native Minister said that the Government would ask the House to give the mo,tion of the hon. gentleman a direct negative. The Government did not see fit to take any exception to the course he had proposed when making his statement of the native policy—when he stated •his intention to give this amnesty and pardon. The Ministry accepted the entire responsibility of this and every other proclamation which had been .issued since they took office. This was a difficult question to deal with as to who were to be pardoned. If they were to carry out the suggestion of the hon. mover of this motion, they would have to hang one-half the native race, for, in the eye of the law, half the native race were accessories to murder. After a careful consideration by the Cabinet, they came to the conclusion that no more could be included in the proclamation as not worthy of receiving pardon, than those they had mentioned. He was not aware that any other women and children had been murdered than what had been mentioned in the proclamation. The hon. gentleman had asked whether the proclamation was legal. Of course it was so. When the country was in a state of war these atrocious murders would always take place. The cases that they had mentioned in the proclamation were those which had no excuse whatever in saying that the murders had been caused by war. The Government had done what they had thought right on the subject; perhaps they ought to have added more names to the list, that was a matter of opinion. With regard to the policy of peace, there was this difference from any other that had been made. This was an absolute declaration, the others were all eocting nt upon some action of the natives. After taking the very best advice that they could, they were induced to issue this proclamation in the hope of assuring peace in certain parts of the colony at present disturbed. They had dealt with the difficulty to the best of their abilities, aud to remove the fears which operated on hundreds and thousands of natives who were afraid to come in for fear they might be tried as being the accessories to various murders. Mr Gi.edhill having made some observations. Mr John Williamson said that he thought the excuse of the hon. the Native Minister could hardly be received. What he should have done before was to have brought down the names of murderers to be included or exempted from the proclamation in the shape of a resolution, so that the matter could be properly discussed in the House. He would vote for the motion.

Mr Stafford said that this wasa most important question, not only as a question of policy, but also as to the question of the power of the Executive to arrest the progress of law. If the Executive could arrest this progress of justice, they could also set at liberty those who were under a writ of habeas corpus. With reference to the policy of omitting certain names of murderers in the proclamation, he thought some were as well left out. The natives did not attach much attention, except for ridicule, to these proclamations. They had too many to pay attention to. Within the last thirteen months there had been no less than seven proclamations, and some of them were contradictory. He thought that in the last proclamation sufficient attention had not been paid to the murders committed, and the exemptions made. The hon. the Native Minister said that he was not aware af any other murdered than those spoken of. He could mention others, that of the boy Meredith, which was one of the first murders in the Province of Auckland. He thought that this proclamation was an unjust interference in the course of the law.

The hon. Attorney Geneeax said that to the best of his judgment the power of the arresting of prosecutions was vested in the Crown, so also it had the power of stopping the execution of the law. He objected to the form in which this motion stood. He would not think it wrong if an hon. gentleman had brought forward the circumstances of a particular case, and asked the opinion of the House us to how the Government had acted, but he objected altogether to a motion of this kind, which put the Government on trial that the House might determine on the policy adopted by them in a number of cases. In a proclamation of this, bind they should endeavour to confine themselves to those cases were the natives would concur in the necessity of liaving the perpetrators of this deed brought to justice. Mr Creighton said that he was sorry that this had been made a Ministerial question. The motion had not been brought forward with a view of hospitality to the natives. With the permission of the house he would go through a list of the different murders of unarmed people which had taken place in the Province of Auckland, and show several not mentioned in the proclamation —they were barbarous and treacherous murders. (The gentleman then went on to mention the murders of the Merediths, Hunt, Cooper, Calvert, Scott, Armitage, Strand, Copeland, Johnston, Job Hamlin, the boy Watson and M’Lean, Jackson, and Fahey and wife.) The hon. gentleman pointed out that a Coroner’s jury bad found a verdict o£wilful murder in all these cases, and yet the Government had said that they had investigated all of them, - The speech of the hon gentleman was here interrupted by the SfEakeb announcing that it was time to go to the Orders of the day. : The debate, therefore, was adjourned until next day.

Penny Savings Bank. —We perceive that th e Victorian Government have organised a Penny Savings Bank, which will he worked in connection with the Post Office. The rules were published in a Gazette recently, and the people are availing themselves of its benefits. Such institution have elsewhere been found to be of lasting benefit to the working classes. Is it not possible to establish one in New Zealand ?—aye, in Napier? The Trial op Me 0. O. B. Davis, for seditious libel, had not terminated up to the time of our latest advices from Auckland (16th.) His Honor the Superintendent left for Wellington in the s.s. Lady Bird on Saturday last. A Gazette was published the same day appointing J. Rhodes, Esq., Deputy Superintendent.

We observe that the residents at Hokitika have resolved to present our old friend, the “ inimitable” Thatcher, with a gold watch'and chain, before his departure from that place.

An extensive land slip took place on the 13th in Willis street, at the back of the Independent Office and Mr Houghton’s shop, but fortunately little damage was done. It is calculated that about three hundred and fifty tons of earth was displaced. —Evening Post, 14th September.

Me Vogel, while replying on the 14th to the debate on his motion, to the effeet that the House had no confidence in the Native Minister, stated that he did not bring in the motion as a want of confidence question ; and since the Hon. the Premier had stated to the House that he hoped to labor with Mr Fitz Gerald in the service of the community, he would not ask for a division. The motion was then put and lost.

At the sitting of the House of Representatives on Friday, September 8, Mr Brodie asked if the Government were prepared to make any expression of sorrow for the death of Dr Macadam, who bad died while in the service of the Colony ? The Attorney-General replied that there could bo no doubt that Dr Macadam was a man of high character. He did not know whether his death was accelerated by entering on the service of the New Zealand Government, but that Government, as well as that of Victoria, must feel that in being deprived of his services a great public loss bad been sustained. Governor Grey and the Wereroa Pa. —The Sydney Punch says:—The Governor of New Zealand claims the exclusive glory of having taken the Wereroa pa. We understand that when that apparently impregnable fortress was taken, its only occupant was an old native woman, who had been left by the evacuating, to chaff the invading party. Would not the victory, consequently, be more properly described as taking the Wereroa Ma?”