PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 5, Issue 279, 16 June 1865, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

WEDNESDAY, 14th JUNE, 1865. The Council met at 3 o’clock. Present—The Speaker and all the mem* bers. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. PETITION. . Major Lambert laid on the table a petition from the inhabitants-of Hampden, praying for the completion of the road from Napier to Hampden, and moved that it should be read. Petition read and received. Major Lambert moved that the petition be printed. Mr, Colenso seconded the motion. Mr. Tiffen said that it was not required ; it was an entirely unnecessary expense. Major Lambert withdrew the motion. the ahuriri plains. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice, asked the Superintendent:— Whether the resolution agreed to by this Council on the 12th August last, recommending immediate steps to be taken to put a stop to illegal squatting on the Ahuriri Plains, was forwardedto the General Governmentif so, to furnish the Council with a copy of the letter accompanying the said resolution, and also the reply of the*Ge° neral Governments and all further correspondence that may have ensued on the subject. —Steps had been taken during previous sessions, iu fact, resolutions had been passed asking the General Government to prevent it. - The only action the General Government appeared to have taken was to issue a notice in the Government Gazette , calling attention to clause- 30 of the Native Lands Act. Meantime, from the action the squatters were taking—fencing, building, stockyards, milking-sheds. &c„ it appeared they were fully determined to hold the land against all efforts of Government to dispossess them. Mr. Tiffen laid on the table two documents, which he said said were the only two Inexistence having reference to the subject SURVEY AT WAIROA. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice, asked the SuperintendentWhether the mrrev of Ui« land at Wairoa, recently acquired, was put out to tender;—if hot, why the usual role in contracts was deviated from In tin* ease,

—He wished explanation of the reason why a sii?fuy bad been taken by private QGh|ract, finstdad of acting in thq •' flsual luaUiier, an<| patting it out to lensjeiv la 'Told. Land*Ar-gijiaiions it was stated; that the Government might, it; particular, cases, employ surveyors at the rate of 6d. per acre, but it was impossible that it could apply in the present case. Mr. M’Lean said that there was no other surveyor available. Mr. Fitzgerald had been formerly employed to define the boundaries of the same block, and now he had to divide it into sections according to a scale supplied by the Chief Survejnjr. He was the fittest man for the work, owing to his previous knowledge of the Lock;. Both other surveyors were in the employ of the Government, therefore they could have no object in ingMr. Tiffen said that if there were no surveyors available in the Province, competition might have been invited from the other Provinces. THE HUNTRESS. Mr. Tiffen asked the Superintendent:— Why the Huntress is not yet in a state of efficiency, seeing that she was to have been completed in September last; —to ask, also, for a return of her total cost to the present date, Mr. M’Lean said that the Treasurer could not at once prepare a statement of her total cost. A firm in Sydney had undertaken the work, hut-had afterwards written that they could not do it unless she were sent to Sydney. The contract was then taken by Messrs Vickery & Masefield of Auckland, who had been much longer over it than was expected chiefly on account of the difficulty experienced in getting the new boiler shipped. It laid 3 months’ on the wharf before it could be shipped. It would, be recollected that £IOOO was voted by resolution of the Council for those repairs, on the supposition that the old boiler would last a year o? two longer, but, upon-examination, it was found that it was so worn tuat a new one must be obtained. The expense of repairs up to the present time was £l6lO. GRANTS IN AID OF ROADS. Mr. Tiffen moved : For e Return of all sums paid by way of grants-in-aid of roads since last session, specifying the locality, length of road, and amount subscribed by private individuals. Agreed to. Mr. M’Lean laid the return on the table. ARTESIAN WELLS. Mr. Tiffen, pursuant to notice : That the Superintendent indemnified for the expenditure of £l5O as grant in aid towards an Artesian well in tiic government buildings reserve. —Artesian wells had been sunk with great success in Canterbury, in had occurred to people that such would be equally successful in Napier. A communication had therefore been opened with Mr. Triphook an old resident in Napier, on the subject, and he had sent up some valuable information, and was confident that the sinking of such a well in Napier would be successful. The cost including piping, would be 15s. per foot for the first 50, and £1 for the second, with freight of materials &c. added. He (Mr. Tiffen) would simply ask for a grant in aid, believing that private persons and insurance companies would subscribe liberally toward this object. Mr. Chambers of Te Mata, bad tried the experiment on a small scale at Te Mata, and the result was that he obtained 60ft. of water. He thought in a public point of view, the money asked for would be exceedingly well spent. Mr. Colenso seconded the motion, He agreed altogether in the necessity of the work, but not in the well being sunk in the government reserve. The water should be taken to the highest part of the town, to be available for the use of all. The attempt, if made on the reserve, would he feared, be a failure, for they would have to penetrate, not a mere layer of salt water, but an arm of the sea. Mr. Stuart was clearly of opinion that a more elevated site should he selected—the object being that the water should be raised to such a height as to supply all parts of the town. The importance of those wells would be appreciated by all who had seen the Artesian well in Paris, which supplied nearly all the houses to the south of the Seine. Major Lambert trusted the Council would not embark in any such speculation. He had no doubt whatever that Mr. Triphook imagined it would be successful; but the name of Mr. Triphook should remind them of the Huntress. He hoped they would not be drifted into another such speculation. Mr. Tiffen having altered the resolution by substituting the words “ be requested to place on the estimates” for “ be indemnified, ’• and Mr. Buchanan having moved the ommission of the words, “in the government buildings reserve,” so as to leave the site an open question, the amended motion was agreed to.

jv t COUNCIL VACANCIES. Mr. , Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved:— ’ , - ' A

Aiiat nis Honor the Superintenuent be requested to lay upon the table of this ■ Council a' return, specifying :■ —1. The dates when the*vacancies to seats occurred since the present body was first elected. 2. The constituences for which vacancies happened. 3. The cause of the vacancies. 4. The dates on which pcw s?uts,fac..tihfi ...seats w.crs issued. 5. The dates on which the said writs were returned, duly endorsed by the Eet urning'Officer. Mr. Edwards seconded-the -

Mr. M’Leao said.that tliO, return was in course of preparation, and would be laid on the table shortly. ' J •' Agreed to. ARMS AND AMMUNITION TO NATIVES.

Mr. Buchanan, pursuant to notice, moved : . ’ ' U.

That his Honor the Superintendent be requested to lay upon the table of this Council a return showing,—l. The date of every order given by any member of the Provincial Government within the period from Ist January to 10th June, 1865, for the Bupply,,whether on loan, as a gift, or by purchase, of arms and ammunition to natives of this province, or resident in districts on its immediate borders. 2. To whom such authorities were addressed. 3. In whose favor granted.: 4. The particulars in full detail of the articles authorised, whether arms or ammunition—comprehending under the latter term made-up cartridges, loose powder, percussion caps, shot, and lead for melting.

—He thought that, in ther present disturbed state of the country, it was desirable to know how far we were furnishing the means for our own destruction. He brought two motions forward, in .consequence of reports he had heard in various directions.

Mr. M Lean said it was not customary for officers of the General Govermneut to give information of the kind called for. He had made such issues as a General Government officer and to the General Government alone he was responsible. It was always his wish to give such information as he could to the Council; but he should'-certainly not give them any in this case. He trusted to the good' sense of the House to bear him out in this.

Mr. Tiffen moved as an amendment that, the resolution be moved that day 6 months. Mr. Curling seconded the amendment. He thought it would be most injudicious in the Council to interfere in this matter. He cordially approved of the measures adopted by Mr. M’Leau for the protection of the province. ,

Mr. Colenso would ask whether the issues of arms referred to had been made by Mr. M’Lean as a Provincial officer, as a Gene al Government officer, or as a private gentleman. Mr. M'Lea.v. —Those issues were invariably made by me as agent for the General .Government, and neither as a Provincial Government officer or private gentleman. Mr. Buchanan, in reply, said that the member for Waimarama had expressed approval of the steps that had been taken for the protection of the province. Did he really know what these steps were; or was he not one of those who thought thatanything emanating from government must be good and right ? His (Mr. Buchanan’s) motion had reference only to provincial officers; still, there was reason to believe that it was on account of Mr. M’Lean being an officer of the province that he was entrusted with the agency of the General Government. There was a close connection between the two, and it was not always easy to draw the line of distinction. The araendmant of Mr. Tiffen was then put and affirmed. A division was called for and resulted as follows : Ayes,—ll. 1 Noes,-—3. Messrs M’Leaa Messrs Buchanan Ormond Stuart Rhodes Edwards Kennedy Dolbel ’ Tuke Curling Lambert Tilfen, Richardson Colenso, Mr. Buchanan pursuant to notice, asked the Superintendent the following question Out of what funds —whether those of the Provincial or those of the General Government—has been defrayed the expenditure incurred in the late treating of natives, and conferring on them presents whilst in Napier. Mr. M £ Lean —lt is a General Government matter altogether. Mr. Buchanan.-— Am I to understand that it has been paid for out of the General Government money ? Mr M'Lean.—Yes. BREACH OF BRIVXLEGK. Major Lambert called attention to a letter that had appeared in a newspaper published that day, purporting to be signed by a member ot that Council. He would move that the clerk now read the letter.

Mr. Bhodes seconded the motion. The Sx j eakeb presumed, as the name of the printer was attached to the paper, the subject could be taken into consideration. ■Mr, Bcchanan.—Perhaps the best course would be to call the printer to the bar of the house.

The letter which was published in our last issue, was here read by the Clerk. Mr. Colenso rose, to a point of order. He hopod the gallant Major was prepared to show that the letter was written by the member for Napier. Major Lambert would easily overcome so simple a difficulty, by asking the member himself, whom ho was sure would speak the truth, Mr. Bcchanan objected. No person was bound to criminate himself.

Major Lambert would not wish to criminate the member for Napier. He simply wished to prevent the degradation of the council. He would ask the member for Napier if that is his signature. Mr. Stuart was quite willing to answer the question if it could be shown that be was bound to do so otherwise he considered it a piece of impertinence. (Order.) The Speaker deprecated the use of such an expression.

M . Buchanan said that the circumstances should be considered. He submitted that a fair course bad not been adopted with reference to his colleague. The proper mode of procedure was to call the printer to the bar of the Council, and question him as to the writer. Mr. Ehohes suggested that the matter should drop at this point. The writer was evidently ashamed of what he had done, and disavowed it. Mr. Colenso rose to order. “ Ashamed” was not a proper expression to apply to any member. The Speaker sa : d it was not so bad as impertinent, hut he hoped members would abstain from using expressions that were likely to be offensive. Major Lambert was no lawyer, and be was glad of it. He had never doubted that his object would be attained on his putting a straightforward question. He would be perfectly satisfied if the Council would express such an opinion as would prevent the writing of such letters for the future. Mr. Stuart said that, if using the word impertinent he had given offence, he was sorry for it ; but he would remark that that word, according to Walker, simply meant something not to the point. Mr. Buchanan said that the expression had not been used offensively, but in a le-ml sense, in which sense it was perfectly justifiable. The Speaker.—Does the gallant member wish to pursue the subject? It so, I apprehend the best course will be to have it out with the printer. Major Lambert.-TUc matter rests with the Council.

Mr. Colenso thought the Council should thank the member for Waipukuraufor bringing this matter forward ; at the same time, before doing so, he should have been prepared to shew that the letter in question was written by a member. Had the question been put to the printer, in all probability the required information would have been given. As it was, he had nothing to stand upon. A letter might appear to-morrow signed W. Colenso ; some people would think it a fine lark to do so; but was he in consequence, to be held answerable. If he bad made such an accusation against another member without proof, he should certainly deserve to have been called something more than impertinent. Major Lambert did think this: if a letter appeared signed W. Colenso, and he (Major L.) asked if he was the writer, be would receive a straightforward reply. The matter dropped. THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. Mr M’Lean moved :—- Ibat a select committee be appointed to examine the public accounts of the province, from the Ist Julj 1864, to the 31st March 1865. Such committee to consist of Messrs Tiffen, Colenso, Kichardson, Lambert, and Kennedy. Mr Colenso in a short speech moved as an amendment:— That the letters and figures 31st of March 1865.” should bo altered to 30th “June, 1865.” Mr Ormond did not think it necessary. He would defer the alteration for another quarter. Mr Colenso said that in either caseitwould be the sain . The Speaker then put the amended motion which was carried. NGAHURORO BRIDGE. Mr Rhodes pursuant to notice, moved That the Superintendent should be authorised by this Council to take immediate steps to secure the erection of the Kgaruroro bridge, particularly the taking advantage of the present winter season

for getting the heavy timber repared. This is all the more necessary, as the Bridge will open up the newly acquired native Lands at Clive, will much enhance their value, and induce the class of men we so much require in the' province (small farmers) to settle, and cultivate the block at once. The motion, after some discussion, was adjourned. Mr Rhodes moved ; That the Council do now adjourn till to-morrow at 3 p.m. Agreed to. Council adjourned at 5'5 p.m. THURSDAY, 15th JUNE. The Council met at 3 o’clock. The minutes of the last meeting were being read, when Mr Buchanan objected. It was stated therein that a certain letter had been written by one of the members. This bad to be proved before it was inserted in the minute book. Mr Colenso did not think any alteration was needed. It would suit very well as it was. The Speaker thought that it needed some alteration. Mr Stuart suggested that it should be altered to “ alleged to have been written.” The Speaker then altered the sentence and the minutes were read and confirmed. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Major Lambert rose to a question of privilege. It was a painful subject, but he considered that it was only his duty to bring it again before them. Yesterday, when he brought the sutject before them, he fully expected that the member would own tbe letter ; but as he did not do so, and he (Major L.) could not prove it, the matter dropped. He was now prepared with proofs, which he would lay before the Council. That (Thursday) morning he had, in company with another member, waited upon the editor of the Hawke’s Bay Times, and asked him if he had any objection to inform him if it was Mr John Meliss Stuart who bad caused that, letter to be printed. He replied that it was not that person who had brought the letter to him for publication ; but he believed that it was he who had written the letter. He showed the letter t o me, and I recognized the signature. The member who accompanied him was prepared to swear that it was his. I have a bill in my possession signed by him (laughter) and the signature is iu the same handwriting. I asked the editor if ho had any objection to furnish me with the name of the person who brought it, and he replied that hn hud. These were his proofs, and it remained with the Council to decide whether or not they were sufficient. If they failed, much as he regretted it, he should be forced to summon the printer before the bar of the house. He would also draw attention to the language now uted in this house. Impertinent was not a term to he used in the house. He thought that the hon. member’s best policy would have been to have owned the letter and taken his dressing—a very light one, by the way—(laughter)—with a good grace. To return to his subject : this was the second day of the Council, and only yesterday a member had said that certain members deserved to have their faces slapped. Such language Mr Buchanan ; I rise to order. The hon, member must not refer to past debates. MajorLAMBRT : Would you be good enough to sit down wheu I rise to order (hear hear.) Mr. Colenso was extremely sorry that this had again been brought i efore them yesterday, when he spoke upon the subject, he was in hopes that it would be the means of putting an end to a very unpleasant debate. He did not blame the member for Waipukurau for bringing the subject before the house ; but he thought he had shown a want of discretion in again bringing it before them especially'wben the matter was no further advanced than it was yesterday. What proof was there in the facts the members had adduced ? He and another member had seen a signature which they imagined to be that oi Mr Stuart; ut there was no proof. Before a Bench of Magistrates it could not he accepted. What use would it be to say “ I think it was so,” “ most likely it was so,” or “ another person told me so ?” He did not like the letter himself, but he thought that it wovfid be best for all parties to let the matter drop. It certainly did not need a fresh stirring up to-day. Mr Stuart would apologise. He bad done so yesterday, but would do so again if he had hurt the hon. member’s feelings, he certainly had not intended to Jo so. He would, however read tbe definalions of “ impertinent,” from the latest edition of Webster’s Dictionary. [The first definition was “ literally, that which is not to the point;” the last, “ intermeddling.”] He said, that if this word was considered by the Council unpar-

liamentary, there was scarcely a word in the English language that would not come under the same denomination.

Mr BudsANAN would much like to be in formed from whom'the intermeddling first proceeded. Who constituted the member for Waipukurau the Lord Chesterfield of the Council? -Was he Master of the Ceremonies ? Was he to stop freedom of speech ? If he thought he was, he would find himself much mistaken. He might also inform the gallant Major that he had gone astray. “It was irregular to sit down without a motion, as he had done. , Major Lambert was sorry to take up the time of tbe house ; but from the manner in which he had spoken it would seem to be a matter of life and death. He did not set himself up as the Chesterfield of the Council, but he would continue to *• intermeddle” where the interests of the house were at stake. Mr Buchanan : What is the question before the house ? The Speaker : A breach of privilege. Major Lambert : —lf the house is still not satisfied, I shall have no alternative but to bring the printer before the bar I trust the house will protect me from this course. I must call attention to the manner of the hon. member on the opposite side. His manner is—l shall not say offensive—but positively intimidating, when he rises and thumps the table. If such proceedings continue, no man of any self-respect will remain in the house I for one will resiga, if it is not put a stop to. Mr Ormond said he felt ashamed—positively ashamed—to rise in the debate now proceeding. Asa member of the Council ever since it was a Council, he could say that he had never seen it lower itself as it had done to-day. He rose, not to take part in the debate, but to move. That the Council proceed to the consideration of the orders of the day. Carried.

[Tbe remainder of this day’s Council proceedings, will be given in our nest issue).