PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume III, Issue 158, 22 January 1864, Page 1 (Supplement)

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Tuesday, January 19. Present—All the members except Mr. Ormond. The minutes were read and confirmed. Notices of Motion were given by Messrs. Tiffen, Colenso, Dolbel, and Fitzgerald. Mr. Colenso rose to ask “If the Government have, during the past year, been able to effect anything towards securing a portion to the Ahuriri Plains for the use of agricultural settlers.” Mr. M’Lean in reply, had to state that the Government had not been able to acquire any part of the Ahuriri Plains from the Natives. The past year had been the very worst for effecting any purchases. The question of title was somewhat complicated, by the feud between Te Hapuku and Moananui, and any attempt to purchase now might lead to a rupture between the two tribes. He had every desire to purchase, and the natives had been in communication with the Government on the subject, but any attempt to do eo would lead to new feuds. It was wellknown that the purchase of land from the natives required great caution; and he had abstained from the attempt, as it would most likely postpone a purchase from being effected. However he was anxious to do all in .his power, in securing the plains for the good of the Province. Correspondence in reference to Loan. Mr. Colenso, in rising to put the motion standing in his name, confessed he thought there was scarcely any necessity, after his Honor’s address yesterday, for bringing forward the motion ; but to avoid the necessity of asking for the correspondence hereafter, he would do so. There ought to be other correspondence than that laid on the table, —at least bo had heard so whilst in Auckland ; and ho should not be doing his duty if he did not press'for all correspondence in reference to the subject whatever should be laid on the table. He should move : “That copies of all correspondence with Inspectors or Managers Banks, and with loan or money agents (if any) respecting the Provincial loan, bo laid on the table forthwith.” Mr. Tiffen seconded the motion. The Superintendent, in laying the correspondence on the table would make a few observations on the' subject. The Council were aware that tenders had been invited for the ncgociation of the loan in the usual manner. Although there were three Banks, only two tendered. There were certain points, however, which the Government could not settle with the managers of the Banks here, and Mr. Ormond was instructed to confer •with heads of each Bank in Auckland, with a view to conclude- the ncgociation. He (the speaker) was not aware of any other correspondence than that already before them, excepting a letter from a private party, saying that he thought it would be much more advantageous if the whole of the money were raised at once in London, instead of part only. His Honor here entered into a statement of the terms offered by the Bank of New Zealand and the Union Bank of Australia, and he left it for the Council to judge of their respective merits. The terms of the Union Bank being considered by Mr. Ormond to be the most favorable, negociations were concluded with that Bank. If the money, when raised, was not required, or unproductive, a certain amount of interest could be obtained for it from the Bank. Ho would now simply lay the correspondence on ’ the table and members would be able to judge for themselves. Mr. Colenso, with the consent of the Council, withdrew the motion. Ahuriri Plains, Mr. Colenso, rose to move, pursuant to notice, — “That this Council resolves that his honor' the Superintendent be requested to use evbry possible fair exertion, —both positive and negative,—to reserve an 4, obtain «o much of that portion of the Ahuriri Plains, bbun'ded by the Ngaruroro and Tutaekuri rivers and by the sea and the-first hills,

as may not be required by the Maori proprietors 1 for their own use, for the location and use of agricultural settlers.”

His Honor had said it was impossible for the Government, to lay hold of any of the plains ; but how was it private individuals could deal with them. If the Government could not do what private persons could do, they must be very weak. In drawing the attention of the Council to the terms of his resolution, what did he mean by a negative exertion. Why, that the law should be put in force to punish all offenders, so that the land might not be monopolised by sheep-farmers and others to the exclusion of the agriculturist. The Government had allowed persons to get hold of the plains, without trying to prevent them, although they had the power to do so. The more he heard of what Was going on, the more iniquitous did it appear. He found Magistrates, Members of Council, Members of the Executive, and others all going in for a slice. And did the Superintendent do anything to prevent this? If the Government could do nothing at the present time towards purchasing, they might take the other position, and try and prevent its illegal occupation. He (Mr. C.) had been informed that the person who had been appointed to lay information under the Native Land Purchase Ordinance, had been so appointed to prevent a dispute likely to arise between the natives concerning the illegal occupation of a piece of land up the country. He had been informed that a member of the Executive had been trying to acquire a piece of land for himself. The Council would therefore see the necessity of voting for this resolution, for if the plains were all taken up by squatters, Hawke’s Bay might as well have a stone hung to its fneck, and be thrown into the sea. He would rather see re-annexation to Wellington than the plains go in this way to the squatters. Notwithstanding this great evil staring them in the face, the local Government was either not sufficiently alive to its duties, or it was so influenced by the interests of its friends and supporters that it would not act. Many persons had spoken to him in Auckland as being dissatisfied with the climate and soil, andasked him questions concerning this province. Many would have been inclined to settle in this province but the accounts they heard of the land monopoly, illegal occupation of native land, and other mismanagement, deterred them from so doing. Whilst in Auckland, he had made an attempt to offer some of his own land for sale, but the agent to whom he spoke to on the subject said it was of no use to put such land as he had spoken of in the market, whilst Government did not interfere to prevent illegal occupation. This motion, was nothing new to them, for he belived the settlers were of one mind on the question, and he hoped the Council would pass themotion,andendeavorto check the career of the squatters, for so surely as these plains were allowed to be leaseh, so surely would they be lost to the Province altogether. Mr. Tiffek seconded the motion, and in doing so, remarked that he only wished the area of land was not more extended than that named in the motion. The Superintendent at one time appeared to have set his head against the occupation of Native land, and he regretted that that was not the case still. (Mr. T. here read extracts from several letters written by Mr. D. M’Lean in 1850 and 1851, shewing how that gentleman was opposed to such occupation.) He quite endorsed those sentiments. He would refer to the dispute concerning the occupation of the Roukawa block, and the consequent appointment of a person to lay information under the Native Land Purchase Ordinance as tile title was disputed, and occupation thereby rendered dangerous. His honor had also told them that it would be dangerous to attempt to deal with the natives for the plains, as the title in this riase was also disputed, but the very person who had leased the Roukawa block had not only leased a large slice of them, but bad also sublet a portion. Such conduct was atrocious, if he might use the term, and if allowed to go on, they would not be able to purchase an acre for agricultural purposes. He knew of certain lands which could have been bought formerly for 2d. and 3d. an acre, and which were now letting for something like £SOO a year. Was it likely it could be bought now, when let for such a rental. It was the interest of all freeholders to vote for and support this motion.

Mr. Bousfield rose to support the motion. He ■was appointed some two years ago to lay informations under the Native Land Purchase Ordinance. At that time the breach of the Ordinance was just beginning to take place, and he made strong representations to the Government for the Ordinance to be put in force, but ineffectually, and the example set by the few had been followed by the many. Most of the land was now in the occupation of squatting gentlemen at a high rental, at such a rental, indeed, that if the Government were to ask it, they would be laughed at. It had been said that some gentlemen had taken land in this manner unwittingly ; but still, at the same time they unwittingly pocketed the profits arising therefrom. The evil had become very great, and it was the duty of the Government tb take steps to put it down.

Mr. Fitzgehald said he could not give a silent vote on this question. He did' not agree with what had fallen from the member for the town, that because the Government could not buy, whilst individuals could lease, it was therefore weak. There was a great difference between leasing and purchasing. With regard to squatting he would allow it in remote districts, and would like to see it legalized and occupants taxed, but he would not allow it on the Ahuriri plains. The Superintendent felt bound to make some remarks on the expressions which had fallen from some of the members opposite. It had been said by the member for Napier that the Province had got a bad name. But ho would ask how it came about The present Government could not be charged with having occasioned it, for it was the first to make provision for reservingthepubliclands from sale. [“No,” from Mr..Colenso]. With exception of a small reserve. With respect to the resolution itself ho agreed with it, but none of the members who had spoken had pointed out what was to be done by the Superintendent in the matter. The power for action lay with the General Government, or with the persons to whom those powers were delegated. He agreed with reserving

these plainsfor Agricultural purposes, but how was it to be done, when they did hot belongto them ? Something had been said as to the action he had taken under the Native Land Purchase Ordinance. He had endeavored to support the law, and had it hot been for him, he believed that both plains arid hills would have been taken up by squatters. He denied that the Government had done anything to depreciate the interests of the Province, and thought that members could not throw blame on the Government for its bad repute. There were times of depression, especially in the time of war, which would most likely deter people from settling, but it would, doubtless, be succeeded by a reaction. This was not the only Province, where illegal occupation of native laud had taken place. It had occurred in Auckland, although, perhaps, not the same extent; and, in fact, everywhere in the Island, except Taranaki, and even there to a limited extent. It was an evil which had grown, and which was one of the greatest difficulties the General Government had to deal with. He foresaw the difficulties which have since arisen when the system first began, and he drew up a code of Regulations for the payment of cattle and stock generally running on native lands, so as to obviate the leasing system. He proposed then to the then Superintendent (Mr. Fitz Gerald) and Mr. Colenso, but they were not approved of by them. He was as much averse to the present system as the members who had spoken. With regard to the correspondence referred to by the member for Te Aute, he acknowledged he had written those letters, and he had not altered in his opinion. The previous Government had hot been able to stop it, although they took strong measures to do so ; and was it expected the present Government could do so ? Ho agreed with the terms of the motion, but it had not been pointed out how it was to beaded upon. He did not believe the General Government had the power at present. An Act had been assented to by the Queen, for direct leasing and purchasing of native lands, although it had not been brought into operation in any part of the colony'yet. He, therefore, thought no blame could attach to the Government for not having taken action in the matter.

Mr. Russell said lie would have supported this resolution but that he thought any resolution on the subject just now to be premature, as he believed the General Government intended to legislate upon the occupancy of native lands, and that the plains in question would be specially exempted, should the Native Lands Act be proclaimed in this Province. The Ahuriri plains would no doubt bo reserved for an agricultural population. He would ask the member for Napier if the Government would have been able to purchase under his monasticsway. No man had thrown more difficulties in the way than he had. (Mr. Colenso : “No.”] Why, he (Mr. R.) himself received a letter from Mr. Colenso in 1816, statiim that he was opposed to the natives selling their land, because it would cause disruption, demoralization, and decrease. The way in which the squatters had been persecuted was cruel. They (the squatters) had done more towards raising the position of the natives than had ever been done under the monastic sway. The squatters were the great pioneers of the country, and but for them Napier would never have been what it is, nor the Province either He would ask tho member for To Aute whether he had not said to him (Mr. R.) that he did not think the Province would be large enough for his own flock and Mr. R.’s ?-(Laughtcr). With respect to the resolution, he would support any attempt, to acquire tho plains, but the acquisition of land generally should be on a different principle in future. Ho would hare the native placed in a different position ; he must be made a British subject, and his property be respected and not be abused. Referring to the distinction between the squatter and,the working man, he would like to know to whops the working man was indebted for the makink of the Province? What would Napier be but for the squatters ? Had they not, in these trying times, stuck by their propcrey and saved the Pro° viuce? Yet a fuss was made about a paltry sfockade at Wnipukurau. He would tell them that he was going to make a motion for the removal of Government to that district.-(Laughter). It was beautifully situated for the purpose,—much more so than the town of Napier. It was well known he had consistently opposed tho occupation of these plains. When the first mill was erected by the first superintendent upon them succedcd in ejecting him. Had not Mr. Colenso clung tenaciously to his property at the Waipuna—(Mr. Colenso, “ No.”) —to his two trades—half-a-dozen for anything he knew ? He would only say further that if the resolution had been brought in at the proper time he would have supported it. Mr. Rhodes was of opinion the Government had no power to prevent the illegal occupation of these plains, and if they passed the resolution, it would have very little weight. Ho perfectly agreed with the motion ; bat ho thoughttheCouncil might pass a resolution that no allowance would be made for improvements made by squatters on native lands. lie believed the day not for distant when the General Government would take land from the natives whether they liked it or not, in order to locate Military Settlers thereon, but tho Government would, no doubt, pay them for it. Claims would no doubt then be made by squatters for improvements. But in the March sitting, resolutions might be brought forward to prevent occupiers of native land receiving anything for improvements. Squatting might not be such an evil as members opposite imagined, as they were the pioneers of settlement. He agreed with the member for Napier generally, but he thought there was a persistent persecution of the squatter. He thought it popular clap-trap with the working men to abuse the squatters. Mr. Edwabds heartily concurred in the resolution, and should support it. This squatting was a gross evil, and if there w'ere any laws in existence to stop it, by all means let them be exercised. If there were not, no time should be lost in gettingjjone passed to meet the case. Mr. Rhodes would explain that when the prosecutions took place under the Ordinance, he was a member of the Government, They were commenced with perfect good faith, and an intention to carry them ont; but there was some hitch which prevented tho Government from doing so.

They had hints from a very good quarter that they could not take effective action in the matter. Mr. Colenso replied. He had taken down a few notes, but he would commence with the last speaker. He was sorry to hear the member for Clive express himself as he had done, at a time when the General Government were striving to make the Queen’s svrit run through the length and breadth of the island, by telling the Council it was not possible to put the laws in force, even when magistrates themselves were culpaplo. The Assembly had passed certain laws, and yet they were told by a member of that Council they were inoperative. With regard to what Mr. Fitzgerald had said as to the unreasonableness of expecting the Government to purchase, because private individuals were able to lease, he would tell them that what he meant was that the Government should be able to do something to prevent leasing. The question had been asked by the Superintendent, how illegal squatting was to be prevented. Why, he could name many ways by which they might, but he would not say they ■ would be restrained. What was the use of the Land Purchase Ordinance, or what was the use of the appointment of ah officer to lay informations under it, unless he was able to put it in force. Was ho put there to do his duty, or merely for a scarecrow? Surely the appointment was hot a mere sham. The Government might, moreover, have brought in a better bill than the Loan Bill—they might have brought in a bill for the taxation of squatters, and it would, no doubt, have been passed by the Council. But they had done nothing of the sort; hor had they even communicated with the General Government, informing it of the likelihood of the plains being taken up by squatters. Mr. Fox introduced a bill into the house, he remembered declaring that the future occupation of native land should be a misdemeanor, until certain objects had been accomplished, when he, (Mr. C.) insisted upon its being retrospective as well as prospective ; and in doing so he remembered the sons of Colonel Russell, for he did not see why the big sinners of the past should not bp punished, as well as the small ones of the future, and it was, he believed, through what he had advanced, that the bill did not become law. The Superintendent had asked how they could .reserve what did not belong to them. It was not this tho resolution aimed at, but it sought to restrain persons from tho occupation of the plains. It was not the action of the Government that was complained off but its inaction. The Government had done nothing to prevent the occupation of the plains—that was the complaint. His Honor had drawn their attention to a code of regulations drawn up by him in 1859 for the purpose of depasturing stock on native land; but they could not be put in operation whilst tho native Land Purchase Ordinance stared one in the face. Surely they could not override an Act of the General Assembly. As he had been asked by his Honor how this illegal squatting might be stopped, he would ask him why he did not put his regulations into force. Under the last Government there had been no leasing of the Ahuriri plains—it had only occurred within tho last few weeks. The member for Waipukurad had spoken warmly on the subject, and had charged him with being eternally set against tho squatters ; but he could tell him that he (Mr. C.) had always supported them. He had done all he could for them ; and what he had written in their defence had long been in tho archives of Hie colony. 11 e had also been taunted with having thrown obstacles in the way of purchasingdand from the natives ; but he could inform them that the first overtures for the purchase of land in this Province had been made to him, and he even undertook, upon certain conditions, to purchase the land from Cape Palliser to Ahuriri. But.ho would have had the whole—not a part; and this might have been accomplished, if population, hail been kept away for two years, until the bargain was completed. Had his offer been followed .up, none of the troubles which have followed would have been heard of. The squatters had called the Pioneers of tho Province, —and. were not the whalers pioneers also. [Mr. Russell.; No ; the Missionaries.] But they (tho whalers) gave place to the squatters, and the squatters in turn must give place to better men. Something had also been said about the unreasonableness of opposing the Government in the suspension of the standing rules; but was it unreasonable, he. would ask, to object to hurry everything through in one day, simply because a member of the Executive wanted to go back to his shearing ? The member for Waipukurau had also gloried in having ejected Mr. T. H. Fitz Gerald from his mill.pn the plains ; but why had he not tried to prevent the rich squatters from taking possession of the plains, as well as the poor man with his mill ? A return of persons squatting on native lands w.as, laid on the table of the House last session,, but he found but very few set down for the Province of Hawke’s Bay. The whalers and other small holders seemed to be well looked after, but he did not see the names of the big ones: The total, sum set down as rental in this return was £2,200, although probably more than £IO,OOO .was paid in the shape of rent annually. It was in tho power of the Government to publish the clause of the Native Lands Act, which rendered all claims for compensation by squatters for improvements null and void. It was in tho power of tho Government also to communicate with and inform' the General Government of the real state of mat-, ters in this Province ; and if these measures hail no effect, they might then bring in a bill to tax persons illegally occupying native land. The Supekintexdent said the Government wished particularly to reserve the plains in question for agricultural settlors. He was not, strictly speaking, opposed to the motion, but he thought it would meet the wishes of its promoters wore he to communicate with the General Government in order to ascertain their views oh tho subject, and what their intention was with respect to the Native Lands Act. Ho thought this would bo sufficientatpresent, and assured the Council they might, safelyleavethe matter in their hands, without the necessity for a division. The Council, however, divided and the resolution was carried. The division stood as follows :—.

Aifiss.~7. Noes—B. Mowers. Bousfield Messrs. Curling Colon so Kennedy Dolbel M’Losn Edwards Russell Fitzgerald Smith Rhodes Tuke Tiffen