GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXIV, Issue 2543, 2 June 1882, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

iPBB PEBBB ASSOCIATION.J LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thubsday, June 1. NEW MBIIBEE. The Hon. George McLean took the oath and his seat. pinanciae. An Imprest Supply Bill for £300,000 was passed through all stages. QUESTIONS. In reply to the Hon. Mr Dignan, The Hon. Mr Whitakeb said the Government would, when amending the Gaming and Lotteries Act, make provision to allow lotteries of needlework for educational purposes, In reply to the Hon. Mr Chamberlain, The Hon. Mr Whitaker said Government would contribute £250 to the London International Fisheries Exhibition in 1883, and would receive and forward all exhibits free. SECOND SHADINGS. The Affirmations and Declarations Bill, and tho Married Women’s Property Bill, were read a second time. The Council adjourned at 4.45. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Thubsday, June 1. The House met at 2 30. PETITIONS. Mr Daegatidle presented a petition, praying that the grounds known as Government House grounds, Auckland, be sat apart for Auckland College purposes. Mr Macandbbw presented a petition from Wi Parata, setting forth that he had been authorised to engage counsel and transact basinets for Te Whiti, and praying that ho (Te Whiti) might be allowed to appear at tho bar of the House by counsel. He gave notice of motion for to morrow that the petition be taken into consideration forthwith. NOTICES. Sir Gbobqb Geey gave notice that he would ask whether arrangements would bo made for the Attorney-General being made a member of the House of Representatives. Mr Pxkb gave notice of motion to the effect that members bear the expense of printing their speeches in ‘'Hareard,” and that the amount be deducted from their honorarium.

Captain MoKenzib gave notice that he would move that steps be taken for providing servants engaged on public works the same number of holidays as they gat in other colonies. Mr Fish gave notice that he would ask if provision would be made for enabling seamen afloat to exercise the franchise wiihin their respective districts. eepdies. The Hon. Mr Jownsxon, in reply to the statement made the previous evening by Mr Fish, that the driver of the engine, who was fatally injured at Eartigi, had been forty-five hours on duty immediately before the accident, said he had made inquiries into the statement, with the result that bo bad ascertained that immediately before the accident the man had been off duty for fourteen hours at Palmerston. Mr Fish said that his statement was, that ia consequence of an order to be ready at any moment, and the leaky state of the engine, this man had to be in attendance there on duty the whole of the fourteen hears. If tho Minister would inquire into that circumstance a different light would be thrown on the matter.

Replying to Mr Feldwick, The Hon. Mr Johnston said the report of the Commission on the Seaward Bush railway route had not been received, but farther information would bo forthcoming when the public works statement was made. Replying to Mr Seddon, The Hon. Mr Dick said that a paragraph in the “ Grey River Argus " of the 16 th May last, re the conveyance of the body of a miner from Bell Hill to await an inquest was incorrectly stated. The removal was not for the convenience of the coroner, but to enable the coroner to summon a jury, there being not sufficient residents for teat purpoe at Ball Hill.

Replying to Mr Hobbs, The Hon. Mr Johnston promised that an impartial inquiry should bo made into the cause of the diosatisfact on with the general management of the Waikato railway. Replying to Mr Wright, The Hon. Mr Rodlbston said it was not intended to throw open all at once the large area of Crown lands in Canterbury, withdrawn from sale on the 27th August, 1878. Their withdrawal, however, would be made from time to time, so as to suit the convenience of bona fide settlement.

Replying to Mr Dodson, The Hon. Mr Dick said a measure had been introduced into the Legislative Council to regulate fishing for imported fish in Few Zealand river*.

Replying to Sir Tomoana, The Hon. Mr Brvce eaid that Government had under serious consideration the Omaranui ease, and but for the so called late Ministerial crisis the Waipswa case might have been settled. He expected, however, that it would be accomplished in the terms already understood, at an early date. Replying to Mr Pearson, The Hon. Mr Johkbton said further inquiries would be made, and if found ceoessaryj further accommodation would be provided at the West Oxford railway station. Replying to Mr Sutton, The Hon. Mr Dior said that Government would consider what necessity existed for amending the Crown Redress Act, so as to give legal redress to persons having claims against the Government not arising out of contracts.

Replying to Mr Sutton, The Hon. Mr Dick said the Government was not aware of any necessity existing for amending the Registration of Electors Act, 1879, in the way of providing more complete rolls.

Replying to Mr Te Wheoro, The Hon. Mr Bexcb said, so far as the enquiry was made before the Native Land Committee, it had not been shown that the petitioner Harte Wharoa had any claim. Replying to Mr DeLautour, The Hon. Mr Dick said that districts would be rearranged so as to modify the present arrangements for administering the Wardens’ and Magistrates' Courts, and to facilitate the business thereof, on the Otago Central goldfields. Replying to Mr Weston, The Hon. Mr Johnstokb said the propriety of reducing farts on the Government railways was under consideration, and would shortly bo decided upon. Replying to Mr Saddon, The Hon, Mr Eoixbstoit said there had been no undue delay in giving effect to the terms and conditions agreed upon for the use of the Kumara sludge channel.

Replying to Mr O’Oallaghan, The Hon. Mr Dick said it was not in the power of the Government to direct tha expenditure of the education voto so as to refund the 10 per cent, reductions made upon the salaries of schoolmasters.

Replying to Mr Daniel, The Hon. Major Aikinson said steps would be taken to provide for a more stringent audit of the books of the local goods department, Invercargill, than had been made since February, 1881. Replying to Mr Hamlin,

The Hon. Mr Dice said the Government would consider the question of refunding the unseated candidates for Franklin North and Wakanui their costs, the election haring been rendered roid by the acts of tho Government officials. It was not usual for Government to undertake responsibilities for us officials in matters of this kind. Replying to Mr Hamlin, The Hon. Mr Johnston said the post and telegraph office at Pukekoe would bo enlarged, fiest headings. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time : —Central Otago Goldfields Reserves (Mr DeLatour) ; to amend the Public Offenders Disqualification!! Act, 1876 (Mr Lavestam) ; Norm Timaru Cemetery Sale (Mr Turnbull.) SECOND BEADING. On the motion of Mr Swanson, tho Auckland Harbor Board Empowering Bill was read a second time. MOTIONS. Tho following motions were adopted : Mr Shbphaed —A return showing for each borough and county the expense incurred in the election of licensing committees. A return showing for each borough and county tho expenses incurred in taking tho local option vote nndor the Licensing Act. Mr O'Gaul AG han —For a return of the revenue, expenditure, number of pupils, and other particulars relating to the Agricultural College in Canterbury.

Captain McKenzie moved for a return of the revenue and expenditure under the various heads in the Matanra electorate.

Mr Ppkb, as an amendment, moved that the return be for “ each” electorate. After a brief discussion, the words “the ilataura” were lost on a division by 42 to 37. The original motion was then negatived on the voices. House rose at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. EDUCATION.

Mr Ppeb moved the second reading of the Education Act Amendment Bill. Iho welfare of the next generation was bound np with this measure, and it would be a national calamity if the measure were not adopted. He had no desire to disturb the existing system, but simply asked that other than public schools should receive assistance, provided they conformed to certain provisions provided for by the Act, such as qualification of teachers, standards, inspectors, As regards matters of religion, the Bill was liberal enough to meet the views of all classes of the community. He dwelt at some length on the importance of a diversity of system of education being provided for the development of the intellectual faculties. The consequence of educating all children under a particular standard was calculated to thwart that diversity of character upon which so much of the greatness of our nation depended. At present there were one-fifth o£ the number of children attending school in tho colony receiving education at other than public schools. Ha might find himself in a respectable minority to-night, but the time would come when they would be compelled to make a provision of this kind. They were doing an error in causing religious teaching to bo excluded from schools, and also in excluding the Word of God. Ho could not justify such a state of things to himself. He would bo told that religion should be taught at the fireside, but he reminded them that in a new country like this, they were all struggling to make a home, and after a day's struggle they were not in a proper frame of mind to go home and teach their children religious truths. They were told that this was an age of toleration. Now, he asked where was their toleration ? They said to the. minority you shall contribute to the educational system in operation, no matter how strong your conscientious objections maybe. He asked for fair play for that minority, and in committee he would be ready to accept any reasonable modification which might be thought expedient.

Mr Dodson seconded. He thought the concession asked for was only reasonable. With Catholics, this was a question of conscience, and ho thought they were as much bound to respect the consciences of that class as they were to consult their own. Despite ell that had been said iu favor of the present system, speaking of the place where he came from, he know it was not a, success. In the school at Blenheim he saw a whole host of perfect babies, and when he inquired what their ages were, he was told that their parents had stated that they were even five years of age. Each of these young things cost as much at children capable of receiving proper education. Again the system as it stood was demoralising the community. The parents cast the whole and sole responsibility of the child’s training, moral and social, on the school teacher. Again he complained that the school committee* were lax and partial in the discharge of their duty. The result of that in one case he knew of was that an objectionable teacher was kept in _ office for a period of two years, many children being kept away in consequence of this teacher’s irregularities. He also instanced the case of a Catholic school where the teachers labored day after day without aid, and he honored them for it. He considered it was not only right but their duty to give these schools a felt share of assistance.

Mr J. Evans Bbown moved as an amendment—“ That the Bill be read that day aix months.” They had been told that a large sum of money was being spent, and here they were making a proposal to increase that expenditure, It would bo better to take a division on the motion at once, and allow them to proceed with the more important business.

Mr Babbon thought the Bill might be made a useful measure. He looked upon this as a legitimate outcome to the proposal to introduce religious teaching ia the State schools, and he would suggest that the debate should be adjourned until, say that day month, so that they might sea what became of tho Bible in school proposals. Mr RmHEEXOBD supported the motion. A large section of the community who could not conscientiously take advantage of the State Schools came to them having erected their school buildings, and being ready to undertake certain conditions, and merely asked them for a small grant iu aid, Mr O’Callage an also supported the Bill. He considered that one portion of the community did not receive its fair share of the rote.

Mr Dahxeii also supported the Bill. Catholics were only asking a fair share of the money they contributed to the State. Was that not a fair request ? They were in the minority, and asked only for fair play. Mr Bbaoken would oppose the Bill if it were calculated to damage the existing system, but the Bill did not interfere with the present secular system. Catholics never would be got to send their children to the State schools. He thought they were wrong, but still they were bound to respect their conscientious scruples. Where the interests of the minority did not clash with those of the majority, it was their duty to concede what was wanted. Ho would not give a farthing to support sectarianism. All that was asked was that assistance should be given for the education of their children according to a particular standard. Mr Johksxon said the Stale schools were cntside the Catholic body. They only knew them ss a system to which they paid tribute. Catholics had paid £69,000 for schools and school buildings, and at their own expense were educating 6000 children. That was a heavy burden to impose on a section of the community. The experience c£ the last five years showed that Catholic children could not take advantage of the State schools. It was extraordinary that a section of the community should have to come as suppliants to be placed on a footing of equality with other sections of the people of the colony.

Mr Sxkwabd said that it had been ascertained that a large majority of the people of the coloay were in favor of reading the Bible in schools. How was it. then, that the present secular religion was established ? It was in the hope that all sections of the community might use the schools. Well, they now found that the Roman Catholics would not take advantage of Slate schools. Such being the caeo, it was evident that Catholic children could not take advantage of their schools. In that case they had a grievance, and having a grievance they had a perfect right to come to this House and seek redress. What did they find ? They found that the Catholics had established schools of their own, and they gave so much a superior education to that of State schools l bet the other classes sent their children to them. All that was asked was that tha House would deal justly by a section of the community. Mr Wesxon bore testimony to the great efforts made by the Catholics for the education of their children, and he was in a position to bear personal testimony to the efficiency of the instruction given in the schools established, but when they were asked to place tile Catholics in a different position to the members of any other Church, then he put down his hand and said ho could not possibly acquiesce. Ho asked if they could not meet for the education of their children on a common ground ? If once they placed different religions on a separate platform they would have bigotry arising oonpled with religious rancour and animosities. He desired to boo equal advantages to all; but once they put one religious body against another, they would return to the old times of priestcraft, when there was no individual liberty. If denominationaliem were encouraged, they would not sea a school at all in many places. Every denomination in a scattered district would not ha able to support their separate schools. Hence there would bo no school at all. The after consequences of such a system would be most disastrous, and <ne of which they would have goed cause to be ashamed. Could it be said that their children could not all meet together for a few hours on ono common platform. It was open to the clergy of any denomination at certain hours to impart religious instruction, and that should ba enough. It would be impossible to satisfy the claims of all denominations for schools, and they could not safely inaugurate a system of this kind. He hoped present arrangements would not bo disturbed, and that they would ro: prevent the children of every religion standing side by side. He would votoagainet the Bill.

Mr Dunoak ipoks ia support oi the Bill, arguing that it was only fair, and drew attention to the amount contributed by the Catholic portion of the community. Mr Bhbbhan insisted that our educational system was one whbb ought to recognise no distinctions. Ho was himself a Catholic. The cause of education had its best friends in the Catholic religion. His election turned on the votes of Catholic?, am 1 ha was ashed if he would vote on this Bill. Tho reply he made was “No,” and he repeated that he would not be a consenting party to alter tho present system of free, secular, and compulsory education. The result would be to get the Bible introduced into the State schools, and leave tho Oatholio schools where they were. He respected the Colonial Secretary for tho answer he gave tho other day that he would not consent to any alteration of the Act as it stood. They had all come from countries which had been kept back by religious differences. Hero they wore building up a great State, and let them do nothing that would disturb that. Years ago they had none of this cry about denominationalism, and what was tho result ? They all mot on any common platform and made friendships, which survived in riper years. It was very like an attempt, on the part of the priesthood, to reduce their own hours of labor below the eight hours’ movement, and cast their duties on the State. The moment they carried this Bill they would have a number of independent schools governed by their own denomination. Ho would oppose the motion, believing that the salvation of the State depended upon the Act remaining as it was. What ho would like to see was that all the systems should bo fused into one. He meant by this that all tho re serves should be thrown into one common fund, so that one district would not have any advantage over that of the other in educational matters. As it was, these endowments were being used for the purpose of keeping up schools for the wealthier classes. Mr M. W. Qrben spoke against the Bill, which, if even carried, would have tho effect of making a break up in the educational system. The aim of the State ought to bo to build up a united system, and not open, as it was proposed to do, the doors of denominationalism. The previous speakers had shown conclusively that the class room was the best place to lay the foundation of such a unity. It was not because Roman Catholics wore opposed to sending their children to tiohool that they were not sent. It was because of the outside priestly influence bronght to bear on them. It was the influence of priest-craft that kept the children away, and that was an influence that essayed to raise itself above the State and hold np the excommunications of the Church as a terror to those who dared send their children to tho State schools. In the schools that would be established under this Aot a moat pernicious class of books would be taught—books calculated to widen the breach and destroy all chance of unity amongst the various denominations. He thought the State did right when it assisted in teaching nothing but what would tend to make good citizens.

The Hon. W. Bolleston had listened to Mr Sheehan with a great deal of interest, and Be agreed in mnch that be had said. It was upon this question more than any other that the building up of a nation depended. What was asked was something that would deprive them more than anything of the opportunity of becoming a united people. The question had been settled by the people themselves. He watched the late elections closely, and he said this was looked upon by New Zealand as a settled question, not to bo reopened except after a direct appeal to the people upon it. He regretted the divoroe of religion from education. His theory was that there was no incompatibility between religion and science; on the contrary, he argued that the more they educated the human mind the better they enabled that mind to grasp the caving troths of religion. It was perfect mockery for them to say that they were going to leave the religious training of their children to the schoolmaster, or the casual visits of the clergyman. Thera was no ground for making this a party question, and he would vote against this Bill or any other which proposed to a r the present system, without a direct appeal to the constituencies,

Mr Shhphabd said that the system as it ■tool was very imperfect, and it was their duty to bring about a better state of things. He would support the Bill to the second reading, believing that in committee alterations might be proposed to make it a workable measure.

Mr Joyce supported the Bill, and quoted from “ Hansard ” to show that many of the Arguments used on the present occasion were those expressed by him when the present Act was passed. Mr Fulton objected to the Bill, because it would have the effect of destroying the present national system. He hoped that the day was not far distant when higher education would be free to all.

Mr Shbimbki spoke against the Bill, adding that if the reading of the Bible was introdnoed it would only be fair that the Catholics got what they asked for under this Bill, Children, he contended, should be all educated under the one roof, so as by that means to promote union and harmony among them as citizens. They all deplored the persecution of the Jews, and this Bill, he contended, was designed to promote transactions of that class. He trusted no attempt would be made to introduce the Bible into schools, as he felt the present system would be demoralised and broken down.

Mr Petrie opposed the Bill on the ground that there was nothing in the State school teaching to prevent Catholics availing themselves o£ it. As a matter of fact, be was aware they did largely avail themselves of it. This was the thin end of the wedge, and if once introduced it would snnder the whole of the present system. He acknowledged, with the previous speaker, that the introduction into the present system of the Bible into schools meant the demolition of the system, and opened a door for the introduction of a measure like this. He denied that the Bible in school requisition was a fair exponent of- the popular feeling, as it had been signed in many instances thoughtlessly, and without due cause. If the Bill were agreed to they would have their schools in large towns at once broken up. Not only would he vote against it, but on the West Coast it was made an election test, and the popular voice was deoidedly against it, and la favor of a secular and compulsory system. Mr Turnbull said that every session would see this Bill introduced, and would find large support accorded to it. He denied that the present was a free, secular and compulsory system. How could it be free us long as they drew its coat from those who oonld not participate in its advantages. Mr Pish considered that, in the estimation of the public, this question had been finally settled, and argued that some of the sentiments expressed that night in favor of the BUI would have ensured the rejection of those who spoko them. They had been told that only one denomination would take advantage of the Bill. He denied that. They had other denominations besides the Catholics who would take advantage of it, and by that means the existing system would be broken -down. The doorway of the present system was wide enough for all, Roman Catholics included. He went on to argue that concessions had been made to make the system acceptable to the Catholics, and that they had no substantial cause for ejecting it. He denied that the Roman Catholics had any grievance. The real ground of their objection was that they considered no educational system was complete unless it embraced religion. Viewed in that light, what was asked was that they should give State aid towards teaching religious creeds. It was no argument that a seventh of the population wanted the thing. It was just a question of being governed by a majority or not. He warned them against attempting to interfere with the present system, otherwise they might destroy it altoether.

Sir Qbohwb Gees’ thought the Bill should 'be almost unanimously rejected. The State Hid we will teach no religious error, and the only way to do that was to teach no religion. All the effect of this Bill was to destroy the Christian religion. The Bill said every sect should have the same right of aid from the State, Mormons, Chinese, and various sects lately risen in America, also the freethonght movement. Then it was nonsense to say that a new country should attempt to foster such system. Every form of religious vice, every form of religions error, for that was what they were asked to assist by this Bill. They had been told that a diverse system of educational training was necessary for the common welfare. Now they had met a diversity. Oatholies had set up one system, and as other de-

nominations increased in wealth and numbers, they would do tho same thing. What was asked by this Bill was really to destroy that diversity, and the prospect they had of its spread. If the intention was only to aid the Oatholio Church, Ist a Bill be brought in restricting it accordingly, but do not allow this wide door for evil to be open. Mr Wait said he would support the Bill with certain amendments. Mr Lbyestam opposed the Bill as a denominational measure. Tho Hon. Mr Dios said the present system was a valuable one for the colony. The proposals of the Bill would have the effect of destroying that system in the country, and the schools would be broken up. As it was, they had difficulties in some places to get enough children to keep up a school at all. If these schools ware divided that division meant their destruction altogether. They found that they had not only Catholic children, but also Catholic teachers, and, in one case at least, a Roman Oatholio Inspector. That showed that the argument as respected Roman Catholics was unfounded. Ho objected to all the educational endowments being made into a common fund. Ha agreed with Sir George Grey, that it was incumbent on them to be careful to teach no religions error. As Minister of Education, he desired to see the Aot carried out in its entirety. Ho also hoped some day to see the Word of Truth road in their schools -without comment. That, at all events, was his opinion, and ho would support any proposal of the kind that might bo put forward, although be did not expect to see it carried this session at all events. Bather, however, than accept this Bi-1, ha would forego the Bible in schools and everything tending to denominationalism. Mr Monro moved tho adjournment of the debate.

The votes were—Ayes, 14; Noes, 63. Mr Pykb replied, and the House divided. The following is the division list:— Ayes, 26—Messrs Bracken, Buchanan, J. (Napier), DoLautour, Dodson, Duncan, Feldwick, Johnston, O. J. (Te Aro), Johnaton, W. (Manawatu), Joyca, Mackenzie, F. W. (Mataura) M'Donald, MTlraith, O’Oallaghan, Pearson, Postlethwaite, Fyke, Rutherford, Shepherd, JStevens, Steward, Sutter, Tairos, Te Wheoro, Tomoana, Turnbull, Watts, Noes, 47 —Messrs Allwright, Barron, Beetham, Brown. (St. Albans), Bryce, Buchanan, W. O (Wairarapa South), Cadman, Oonolly, Dargaville, Dick, Fergus, Fish, Fulton, George, Green, J. (Waikouaiti), Green, M. W. (Dunedin East),. Grey, Hamlin, Hobbs, Hurst, Hursthouse, Kelly, Levostam, McMillan, Mitchelson, Montgomery, Morris, Moss, Muuro, Peacock, Petrie, Eolleston, Seddon, Sheehan, Shrimski, Smith, Sutton, Swanson, Thomson, H. (Christchurch North), Thomson, J. W. (Olntha), Tole, Trimble, Weston, Whitaker, Whyte, J. B. (Waikato), Wilson, J. G. (Foxton), Wright. Pairs Ayes Messrs Hall, Bathgate, Daniel. Noes —Messrs Levin, J. McKenzie, Maoandrew. Tho House rose at 1.15.