HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2312, 1 September 1881, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wednbbday, August 31. The House met at 2 30 p.m. stonbwallins. The Spbakbb, before proceeding, announced that, in accordance with Standing Orders 51 and 71, ho would, at 730 p.m., proceed with the Orders of the Day, whether or not the question then before the House was disposed of. He would strictly enforce that rule in future, and it was through an error on his part that it had been overlooked heretofore.

Mr Collins immediately moved the adjournment of the House, saying that he had entered the House simply to support the present Ministry, believing them honest Conservative Liberals, who would stick to their colors and friends. He had evon voted for them in coses where he knew they were wrong. Now however he could no longer support them. They had deßorted their friends and their principles. He had hitherto taken no active part iu the obstruction, because he still hoped for some amicable settlement. Now however this was hopeless, and he felt bound to oppose in every way a Ministry which, having abandoned its friends, was content to live at the will of its enemies.

Sir G. Geey asked that they should be allowed till 7.30 to consider the ruling laid down by the Speaker, after which an opportunity should be given for debating that ruling. In reply to Mr Bryce, The Spbaxbb said that it was quite competent for mombers on the question of adjournment to discuss the position he intended to assume, and if possible to show that that position was untenable. He was quite open to correction.

Mr Httbsthouse gave the Government to understand his secession from its ranks, announcing that for the future he held himself froe to join whatever party he might think fit.

Sir G. Gbby contended that if the House had become unmanageable, and the Government desired to punish the members, then the duty of the Government was to dissolve Parliament, and [leave the country to settle the dispute. The Standing Orders ought not to be employed for coercing the House, or using the Speaker for such a purpose. The Hon. J. Hall called attention to the remark, and the Speaker repudiated the insinuation that he had been made use of for any party purposes or object. Sir G. Geby continued to say that he had not intended to impute any improper motive to the Speaker, nor did he think he had done so. All he desired was to prevent the Speaker being placed in a position which would countenance the impression that he was using his authority to coeroe the House. If the Government thought itself strong enough, let it attempt to suspend the Standing Orders ; or if it considered itself in the right, then let it dissolve the House and appeal to the country. Either course was open to it. He repudiated all intention, as had been imputed to him, of attempting to deprive Otago and Canterbury of what they were honestly entitled to. He proceeded to say that he had no desire to put the Speaker in a false position, but oimply to save him from committing himself to a wrong course. He then disoussed the two Standing Orders quoted by the Speaker, arguing that until a motion for adjournment was decided no other business could be brought on for that day. Down to the present day they had always followed a different course from the one now proposed, and a great crisis like this was not a fitting time to import new forms or interpretations into their modes of procedure. Mr Gisbobnb argued that the motion for adjournment superseded all other questions. He considered the question before the House to be whether a certain important step gravely affecting the interest of a large portion of the colony should be taken until the matter was relegated for decision by the electors. Government desired to inflict what he conoeived a great wrong, and then leave it to be rectified when the persons on whom the wrong was indicted were wiped out of political existence, and the situation of the wrong doers greatly strengthened by the consummation of the wrong itself. That, he contended, was the fair statement of the case. He blamed the Government for allowing itself to be led by the majority instead of leading the House. He fully believed that the Nelson men in their action bad the sympathy of the country. Sir W. Fox to some extent sympathised with the Nelson men, but he denied that there was anything noble in their oonduct. What they had been doing was to fight for their own seats with the distinot knowledge that they were sure of their seats if they could defend them. It was a purely selfish fight; there was nothing noble in it. They had acted their part tolerably well, not having shown too muoh temper beyond what was sufficient for virtuous indignation purposes. Their stonewalling proceedings were not dignified, nor did they tend to heighten publio respect for representative institutions. The coeroion spoken of was not for the purpose of stifling opinion, but simply to stop the [superfluity of speech. When they had to sit from 2.30 p.m. to 2.30 a.m. listening to their blow vapid utterances,

altogether aimless and meaningless, day after day, then tome sort of oure or coercion became absolutely neoesaary. The moving of the previous question, as practised in the Lower House of Congress, was to his mind the most effective means for attaining the object aimed at. It was that any member might move that the question be now put, and on that there could no further debate, nor even on the propriety of the motion that the question be now put. A decision had to be taken at once. If introduced here it would tend to check the evil to which they had been of late exposed. He trusted that their late experiences would load them to consider this point seriously. Mr Macahbbew reminded Sir W. Fox that the form of putting the previous question without debate existed in the Assembly until 1863, and he believed it would havo again to be restored to their orders. He urged the Houbo now to prooeod to tho real business. He thought the Government was to blame for not bringing down its important measure earlier, but apart from that, he asked the Nelson members to suspend this stonewalling and allow tho House to proceed with the business. The Nelson members were really seeking to perpetuate an injustioe. Mr ShhbhAN said he had been an interested speotator of recent events. He had not yet ' taken part in the stonewalling, but he had some stone and mortar, whioh ho meant to use at the proper time. He reminded the previous speaker of a similar transaction which. i he himself took part in in 1875-76, and they t saw no great'evil in the course then pursued. ' They had then refused to listen to similar advice to that Mr Macandrew now gave the Nelson members. He thought the Nelson members deserved every consideration in the s effort in which they were engaged. He re- - minded Sir W. Fox of transactions of a not very sedate kind, in whioh ho took part before

he had seen fit to tone down to his present patriarchal propriety. He reminded.hunor other performances in which he had taken part, whioh, although not strictly speaking stonewalling prooesses.werenevertheless calculated to delay business materially, * ltfloUl ' any good result. He asked Sir W. Fox to recollect these faots. He wont on to argue that the motion for adjournment took precedence of all other motions or business, and contended that the interpretation of the Standing Order proposed might not improbably be attended by serious conseqnenoes to liberty of speech. Mr Andbbws quoted from the "Timaru Herald's" special correspondent's telegram, where it was stated that he had taken a position in the proceedings opposed to the interests of Ohristohuroh. He thought he had made himself dear that he supported the Bill, and how anyone could make such a statement as that in the telegram /oto"ed to he could nob possibly understand. He had all along gone on the assumption that the prinoiple that the Nelson men wore contending for was not a true one. They had for a long time enjoyed what did not belong to them, Bnd now complained at being asked to give it up. , Mr Wakefield oomplamed that tne method adopted by the Nelson members in moving the adjournment precluded members from expressing their views on the real question at issue. He had up to a oertain point felt some sympathy for them, but in view of their now tactics, by which all business had been shut out, that feeling could no longer be entertained. This action prevented the House from disoussing the real question at issue in a reasonable way. Ho supported tho Speaker's interpretation of the Standing Orders, and upon expressing a similar opinion on a previous occasion, he was told that the Speaker had considered the point and come to a contrary conclusion. Otherwise, he should himself have raised it. He referrod to previous instances upon whioh the view of the Order now oontended for had boon asserted and acted on. He controverted the opinion expressed that the Nelson members had shown a great amount of moral courago. Had they followed what he believed to be their own individual conviotions, and, despite the demand made by their constituents, refused to have anything to do with this stonewalling business, then he would have looked upon that as true evidence of moral courage. The Hon. J. Hall oontended that the decision arrived at by the speaker was a sound one, and wont on to oriticiso the Standing Orders in support of that view. He cautioned Nelson against committing itself to the tender mercies of its new found friends and allies, and reminded them that these were the men who in the past had proposed to treat them even more harshly. Mr Ballancb argued against the Speaker's ruling, and was interrupted by the 5,30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING.

On the House resuming at 7.30 p.m., the Spbaxbb ordered that the ordera of the day be called on. Mr Rbbves rose and said:— " I have a case of privilege." The Olerk, taking no notice, read the nrder of the day to go into committee on the Representation Bill, and the Speaker left the chair without noticing Mr Reeves. BEPBESBHTATION BILIi. In committee on the Representation Bill, Mr Seddon moved the following ua a new clause:—"From and after the passing of this Act the freehold franchise shall be abolished, and hereafter only persons possessing the residential qualification shall bo ontitltd to vote for the eleotion of members of the House of Representatives, or to become candidates for seats in the said House." Mr Rebybs moved—" That the ohairman leave the chair." He said when he attempted to address the Speaker before he left the chair he was not allowed to do so, although he rose to a question of privilege. It was known that a oortain transaction had taken place between him and two members of the other Chamber re their honorarium, and that a committee had been appointed elsewhere on the matter. It was most outrageous that ho should be choked off in the way he had been, when what he proposed doing was to move that a committee bo appointed to inquire into the circumstances of that transaction. He had no desire to obstruct business in any way, but the matter. was an important one to him.

Mr Shbbhan spoke in support of the motion, and complained that the proceeding now attempted to be taken was a startling invasion of the privileges of the House. He argued that the question was an urgent one, and one the House could not evade in the way proposed. The Hon. J. Haix opposed the motion, contending that it proposed a direct violation of the ruling of the Speaker as announced that afternoon. When they got out of oommittee it would be time enough to raise the privilege question. Mr Pitt spoke in support of the motion for reporting progress. He argued that the avowed object of the Government was to get them into oommittee, so as to keep them there for an indefinite period. Seeing that, he knew those on his side would not give way. In that case it was a mere mookery to say that the question of privilege oould be dealt with when the House re-assembled. It was cruel to keep a charge of this kind hanging over a member's head in that way. The Hon. J. Haxi denied the right of members to assume that the Government intended to keep the committee sitting as stated for an indefinite time. He was not aware of any such intention. Mr Speight supported the proposal for reporting progress. Mr Rbbves read an article from the Dunedin " Evening Star " re the honorarium transaction, which he said had only come under his notice that night. He said he thought that the scandal was gross enough to warrant the urgent effort he was making ; indeed, he thought the House would agree with him in thinking that he would be justified in going the whole length of asking that the printer of the paper be called up before the bar.

Mr Lundoh said that with all the respect he had for the Speaker he could not help saying that he was ashamed of the manner in which the Speaker had got into and got out of the chair that night. Major Habbis said that they had just heard that " Diok Reeves " had been mixed up with this honorarium transaction. He took that to mean that the Oolonial Secretar? as well as the member for Grey Valley He would, therefore, call upon the Hon the Colonial Seoretary, Mr Dick, to assist them in their endeavors to clear his character. The House divided on the motion for reporting progress:—Ayes, 21 5 noes, 42. The division list:—

Ayes Messrs Ballance, Colons, Gibbs, Sir G. Grey, Messrs Harris, Kelly, Levestam, Lundon, Ormond, Pitt, Beeves, Seddon, Shechan, Shephard, Shrimski, Tawhai, To Wheoro, Tole, Tomoana, Xurnbull, Weston. Noes—Messrs Allwright, Andrews, Bain, Barron, Beetbam, Bowen, Brandon, Brown, Bryce, Bunny, Colbeok, Dick, Driver, Fisher, J. T. (Heatboote), Sir W. Fox, Messrs Fulton, Hall, Hirst, H. (Wallace), Johnston, Jones, Kenny, Levin, Maoandrew, Mason, Montgomery, Oliver, Pyke, Beid, Biohardson, Rolleston, Saunders, Stevens, Studholme, Sutton, Swanson, Thomson, Trimble, Wakefield, Wallis, Whitaker, Wood, Wright. Pairs —Against: Messrs DeLautour, McLean, MoDonald, Murray, Atkinson, J. B. Fisher. For : Messrs Speight, Modb, Bussell, Bastings, Gisborne, Hursthouse. Mr Sbddon's new clause was then discussed. Sir G. G-bby moved that the Chairman report progress. Ho said that it was generally understood that Mr Wakefield bad a promise of the Public Works portfolio. His object in asking them to report progress was in order that the Government might have time to complete their negotiations. It was monstrous that a virtual Minister should be kept behind tho Government Benches when he ought by right to be upon thoso Benches. The country had a right to have a diversity of views represented in the Ministry, more especially when the Ministry was incomplete. The House had voted salaries for a certain number of Ministers, aid the House were entitled to the diversity of opinion whioh would (hereby be secured. There should also be a Maori member on those benches, As regarded tho Bill he was quite prepared to accept s distribution of representation strictly based on population, if each doctor in the oolcny was restricted to one vote only. If the Bill was remodelled in these respeots ho world, support it, and give his assistance to pessing it that very night. The Hon. J. Ham, said he would sonsider any reasonable amendment which would load to such a result. Sir G. Gbey accepted the Premier's offer to meet him in the direction indicated. Mr Sheeeait suggested that the Hour^

should vote a handsome mm to have painted a grand historical picture oE the meeting of the hon. member for the Thames and the Hon. the Premier.

After the usual adjournment, Mr Spbight spoke at length in favor of a single vote. Ho was however willing that eaoh elector should have a choice as to whether he would have his vote for either residential or freehold qualification, but only one vote, and in only one district. He quoted figures to show that the proposed redistribution was not basod on a populatioa basis. The Bill was a delusion and a fraud.

Mr Beeves commenoed to speak at 11.30, quoting largely from statistics of neighboring colonies, and contrasting the figures with the proposals of the Bill. He spoke till one o'olook, when the committee divided on the motion that the Chairman leave the chair : Ayes, 4 : noes, 25. Mr Shbbhan then began to speak, and oontinued till 1.30 a.m., when he moved to report progress.—Ayes, 4; Noes, 25. Mr Shepherd having spoken, Mr Taiaboa moved that the Chairman leave the chair— Ayes, 4 ; Noes, 25. Mr Beeves was speaking and reading long quotations, and two-thirds of those present were sound asleep, when at 2.23 two smart shocks of earthquake ooourred. The effect was magical. The sleeping members jumped to their feet, and, headed by Mr Beeves, rushed frantically to the door, where they remained a few minutes peering up at the lantern dome to see if any harm was done. All being safe, they returned to their places, and I

Mr Rbbvbs resumed speaking, saying the occurrence was no doubt a dispensation sent in respect of froward paths into which Parliament was straying. He therefore moved to report progress.—Ayes, 4; noes, 22. Mr Shkkuan also improved the occasion, and moved that the Chairman leave the chair. —Ayes, 4 ; noes, 22. At three o'olock Mr Bryee took the ohair. Mr Rbbvbs, after speaking some time, moved to report progress.—Ayes, 4; noes, 21.

Between four o'clook and six o'clock five similar divisions took place. At the latter hour only twenty-three members were present, and most of them were asleep. Mr Lundon was, on the motion for leaving tho chair, proceeding to talk on the Bill generally when he was ruled out of order.

Mr Shbbhan disputed this ruling, saying Mr Seymour had ruled that the whole polioy of the Bill oould be traversed on that motion. The Aoting Chairman, however, refused to alter this ruling, and a motion was put for leaving the chair.—Ayes, 6; noes, 20. Mr Pitt next took a turn, and moved that progress be reported. He spoke for an hour and a-half, dealing with almost all the items on the Order Paper, in order to show why progress should bo reported. He concluded by stating that if the reasons he had given were insufficient, he would be happy to give further reasons on another occasion.

During his remarks a quorum had to be rung up on about fourteen occasions, and a division was taken at 9.30 a.m. on the question for reporting progress—Ayes, 7; noes, 18.

Mr Sbddon then moved—" That the ohairman do leave the ohair," observing that he could give good and sufficient reasons for the motion. He oontended that if it came to fighting and bloodshed they had quite enough fighting power on the West Coast to whop both Otago and Canterbury. If those who were seeking to deprive them of their rights had no scruple of conscience in using every means to force this injustice, they need have no scruples about using every means to protect their rights. He then began to go over the Hokitika electoral roll name by name, to show how the property qualification would tkffect each man.