PARLIAMENTARY.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2304, 23 August 1881, Page 3

PARLIAMENTARY.

«. [PBB3B ASSOCIATION TBLKGBAM.] HOUSE OF BEPKESENTATIVES. ' n Monday, August 22. ]> Tho House met at 7.80 p.m. COBBBOTION. Mr BICHABDBON correoted a statement whioh had been published to the effect that a Royal Commission had been appointed to enquire into tho circumstances attending the late railway accident at Knitoke. The fact was, that he had been Bimply asked, along with the two members for Wairarapa, to anquiro into the cause of tho accident without eny such Commission having been constituted. MB PTKB'S MOTION. On Mr Pykb being called on to move " That it is not within tho power of Mr Speaker to omit or mutilate a notice of motion presented by any member of this House, unleoH tho same shall bo of an improper or offensive character," ho said that as ho had no wioh to delay the business, he would withdraw the motion. At the same time ho desired to state that in tabling tho motion, which had been altered, ho was perfectly in earnest.

The Spzaob said that he was most averse to interfere with tho latitudo given members in relation to notices of motion, but tho House looked to him to permit of nothing unsoemly appearing on tho order paper. Boforring to tho motion complained of, he stated that ho had spokeu to Mr Pyke on the subject, and before taking upon himself to alter tho same he had offered the motion back again to tho hon. member, so that he might romodel it if he saw fit. His reason for interrupting Mr Pyko on Friday was that ho was satisfied that no breech of privilogo had occurred, and he was unwilling to waste the time of tho Houao. The motion was withdrawn. MISCELLANEOUS.

On the motion of the Hon. J. Hall, tho Timaru Harbor Board Act, 1576, Amendment Bill was introduced and read a first time.

A message from tho Legislative Council was read on tho subject of the amendments in the Gaming and Lotteries Bill. The Hon. T. Dick oxpluined that tho Counoil had consented to the excision of clause 15, but also insisted on tho now clause 9 inserted in the Houbo being Btruck out. This was tho clause intended to affect bookmakers, but the Council feared it admittod of wider application, und he thought that the Counoil's concessions and termß should be accepted, and moved that tho Council's amendments be agreed to. Mr Bbown and Sir W. Fox objected to clause 9 being dropped. Messrs Bowen, Whitaker, and Seymour supported the Hon. T. Dick's motion, which was carried on the voicoo. BAILWAY CONBTBUCTION BILL.

The Hon. J. Hall moved the sooond reading of the Railway Construction and Land Bill. Ho said that a total of 1287 miles of railway had been completed in the colony. What remained to be done was to complete a gup of 215 miles in the North, and 104 in the South, to complete the main through lines. The railways already made paid 3J per cent, which was a strong inducement to get these gaps filled up. They had also been a means of opening out many important branches of industrial pursuits. Agricultural development had been promoted to an extent that would not otherwise have been the oase. The time had now arrived when the area of available agricultural land would hare to bo extended, and that could only be done on advantageous terms by extending the means of communication. There were three ways in which that could be done. The first was by doing as they had hitherto done, the Government to borrow the money and make the lines. He did not mean to say that they were not to borrow more money, but that course would not meet all the requirements of the oase at present. Another method was by guaranteeing interest to companies undertaking the work. That was objectionable, aa it tended to extravagance, both in making and management. For that reason they did not think this system desirable. Then again, as against both of these methods was the fact that they were debarred from going to the money market for a given time. The third made was the one proposed in the Bill. It had been largely resorted to in America. Some large lines had been completed, and were still being undertaken on this principle. In Canada 25,000,000 acres of land had recently been devoted for this purpose. In Now Zealand land was more plentiful than money, and when they gave land they knew exactly the extent of their liability. By giving lard they became no poorer, and if the work was a success they woro a great deal rioher by making the land that would Btill remain accessible more valuable than the whole area was before. Then it brought foreign capital into the colony, and would give commercial men at Home a more direct interest in the welfare of the colony. By that means an additional colonising agency would be established at Home, and that whs, to his mind, a very great desideratum. In America that was found to be the case. The companies at Home circulated their prospectuses and resorted to other means for making the colony known. That it would not be dignified for the Government to do. Then this system would chock the construction of mere political railways. These companies would not invest their money for political purposes, but would do eo on a purely commercial basis. The present time was a most favorable one, as there was a large amount of capital seeking investment. These were the modes which weighed with the Government in bringing down the proposals in , the Bill. In referring to the provisions of the Bill, he pointed out that it. proposed to loavo the final adoption of tho contract to the House. Contracts of thia kind tho Government deemed too important to admit of their final disposal being left wholly in the hands of tho Ministry of the day. The borrowing powers and other provisions from existing Acts were inserted in the Bill itself, in order that companies might be enabled to bavo the whole schomo before them, and all their powers and privilopes embi died in the one measure. The lands to be dealt with were to be, aa much as possible, eitua'.ed along the lino of railway, the limits being within fifteen miles on each side of tho line. In America the limit was twenty mile.?. There ■was also power asked for tj deal with lines already partly made. It was asked to hand over the work so accomplished to any company willing to undertake ar.d carry out their oomploti-in. There was no provision in the Bill that the land should be settled, but it would bo the duty of tho Government to see that a stipulation of that kind was made in any contract entered into. He commonted at length on clause 99, pointing out thai 30 per cent, of the cost of the line in land meant at the valuation made before the line was constructed. When constructed the land would bo greatly enhanced in value, and Government thought such enhanced value would be quite a sufficient inducement for undertaking the work. He recited the othor provisions, stating that in committee Government would be prepared to accept any reasonable amendment. It had been suggested to him since the Bill had been framed that it wculd be wise to allow land ownern along any proposed line to rate themselves for the payment of intorest. There could, he thought, be no objection to that proposal, and in committee a suggestion of the kir.d would secure consideration.

Sir G. Obey took it thai if this Bill wan given effect to the whole future of tho colony was to bo changed. It meant that they were to establish a community of tenant! under foreign landlords. The greatness °f a nation was the pledging of tho national credit, and the creating of a national debt for useful public works. Ac they grew in strength and population their debts should increase in proportion. He quoted from a speech addrewed by himself to tho Cape of Good Hope legislature in 1856 when introducing a scheme of public works. Tho mistake they were making was not allowing local bodies to borrow to the full extont of their ability for public works. Ho contendedjthat it was their duty to ruiee by borrowing such money as wss necetsary to complete their public workt', end a grant portion of this could be raised in the colony. According to the Premier'* own showing tiioy had only about a fourth of the work to do in order to complete their through trunk line. Tho Promier had also Dialed three meanß within their reach for completing that work, but there wore others. One error ran through the whole of tho Premier's remarks. On the first head ho assumed thiat the money must be borrowed outside the colony. He contended that a largo proportion of the money could be raised within the colony. The Premier objected to tho guarantee system on tho score of encouraging extravagance, but he wag satisfied if the guarantee was moderate, that it would be an inducement

toward* e. There was still a fourth method th 9 Premier had not touched on at all. It had been already proposed by himself when in offici. "- t waa l ' lat knd should be sold and tht cost construction paid out of that. The fab ** waß nofc to De B °l°- until the linos were fiv ' ahod ' or Partly finished. Had that plan, prsn>, IBed h ? hia Government, been carried otat E 3& oh oi the d ™ treßß and stagnation which h»<3 oreyailed would have been prevented, and r'ft. 'ulted in settling a large population on the Isuk '' who would have found employment on th«*. " works ln the meantime. Ho objected to the proposals made, because no analogy ez»/ od between this place and the United St*t, ,B - Th fre thoy had largo tracts of country * ' h,cn dld not exist hore. All great writers - on tno subject objected to this modo of «o>B»i' ru °t- I ing public works, and said it was the gravest j curse whioh had befallen Amerioa, and k>though Canada had lately gone into tlio I method that was no reason that they should fall into a similar course. The Premier had told them that in disposing of the land: in this way they made themselves no poorer. He said that in giving the land in that way they would make their population beggars. Those companies would sell the land at enormous profits, at a price people could not afford to pay, as they would bo held by sbsenteo proprietors who cared littlo for the colony, provided that fney got a Urge revenue from those to spend at home. Ho also denied tho statement of the Premier that if the system as proposed was a success tho colony would be enriched. They would, no doubt, establish a colonising agency at Homo ; but what would its objects be ? They would be either to sell the land at an unorrnous price in England, or else thoy would Bend out immigrants as tenants, farmers paying rentß to landlord who engaged themselves and their rents at Home. They would simply intorost themselves to tho extent of interfering with their legislation, and getting tho Imporial authorities to interfero with their internal affairs, if they conceived these were injuring their interests in the colony. Then, again, he said that everyone of these railways would bo political railways. For all he knew, there might be many persons in this Hi'uso even now who were to got valuable appointin entj from companies about to take up these railways, and outside Parliament there might be many such influences at work, especially in regaTd to the elections. The proposed system would, he believed, be initiating the grossest system of corruption that had ever been attempted in New Zealand. If abundance of capitbl was seeking for investment, why not CO into tho market themselves and complete these works. They were only restricted from borrowing till the end of next year. Meantime, they could go on at a very trifling cost and completo the survoys. He had thought tho question out clearly, and these were the conclusions at which he had arrived. Mr Bichabdson said that tho alternative schome mentioned by the previous speaker failed because the money could not be got to go on with it. At tho Thames, Sir Gh Grey had told his constituents that u proposal of this kind would be made, and he blamed him, if he was not satisfied with it, for not having brought up his alternative proposal and joined it in issue with the proposal of the Government. That would have been a wiser oourse than the one he now proposed following. In estimating the percentage paid by the railways, he reminded them that in many instances they had so to speak preceded settlement, and in others they had good roads to compete with. Such being the case they could not only look upon the return as being good, but also as giving good promise of what would yet be the case. He could Bee no reason why they should not put these companies on tho same footing for constructing these works as the Government was in. Having once concluded an agreement on a prudent basis, such a one as would be passed by that House, ho could not see why any further security should be required. Ho also pointed out that the lands as provided for in section 77, should be set asido when the survey was made, otherwise speculators were liable to get the lands for their own purposes. Ho hoped that tho rating clause alluded to by the Premier would be introduced, and he counselled them, while protecting the public interest carefully, that they should also be careful to make ths conditions imposed on the company as light as possible, otherwise he felt it was just possible that there would be a great deal of trouble in getting companies to take up these proposals. Mr Bastings urged the necossity of completing the main trunk lines, even if some of the railways already made were to be sold to raise tho money required. He believed that a syndicate could be formed to buy them. As for the present Bill, he was certain that there would never be a mile of railway made under it. The Bill was a blunder, and never oould be made to work. He pointed out that the land was not to be tho property of the company until after the work was completed. That meant that the company would have no security to offer in raising money to undertake the work. Then, again, the delay required by bringing tho matter before Parliament would leave things so uncertain that no company could possibly get money. The technical difficulties of the District Bail ways Act, which had been the great drawback to that, were roproducod here in their very worst form. The Bill could not possibly be made into a practicable measure. It ought to have been framed by a committee of men who had had experience in the defects of the District Railways Aot, not by theorists and lawyers. He suggested that it should bo referred to a committee of the class of men he indicated.

Mr Gisbobne would support the Bill, expressing his strong belief iu its principle. He considered that, the principle, if carried out, would not only secure for them their railways, but it would be tho means of greatly enhancing the value of tho publio estate. He quoted from United States Acts on the subject to show that it was absolutely necessary to provide for the settlement of the land, and not allow it to be held by the company for more spooulativo purposes. In criticising the various schemes for construction mentioned by previous speakers, he said that tho one before them was tho only one which bad the merit of not requiring them to borrow money in order to provide for ourrent expenditure in one way or another. The great question t.lv>y had to keep in view was, as to whether these lines were to be completed now or be indefinitely postponed. If they got them completed by companies a great step would be gained in the right direction.

Mr Maoandbew wondered at the hallucination which seemed to exist that this Bill was not one to borrow money. If the colony did not propose to borrow, tho companies would, and the practical effect would be the same. The Bill was an excellent specimen of tho way how not to do it. He was certain that it would be a dead letter. He would never be a party to borrowing another penny outside the colony for publio works. They could not bear the drain of interest. This now amounted to £4OO a day. To complete the present railways would cost £6,000,000, or.d it was proposed to give away £2,000,000 of land, which was really equal to money. That was paying too dear for their whistle. The country wanted railways, and they offered it a Bill that would never constrct railways. It was giving a stone where bread wbs required. If the policy of 1878 had been carried out, the policy alluded to by Sir G. Gray, he believed they would now have admitted it to be the correct policy. Mr Letin said that the lifo of tho colony depended upon the completion of these works, consequently they must either go into the money market and raise fresh loans or elss resort to aome such scheme as this. He admitted that the Bill had defects, but he believed it could be turned out of committeo a good workable measure. Ho thought clauses 13 and 14 were too stringent, and then the House might leave tho Government to complete the agreement under wise and prudent restrictions, without the delay incidental to tho proposed reference of the contracts for approval by the House. He also objected to clause 85, as to the valuation of the land by the Survoyor-Goneral. The company, he thought, ought to have somo say on that question. Tho 30 per cent, cost might, under certain circumstances, be increased, and clause 90 should have its first sub-seotion struck out. The fact of £50,000 having been subecribed for one of the works proposed should Bhow how well the Bill would operate in raising money within the colony itself for publio works. With certain modifications, he was convinced that the Bill would successfully accomplish the objects aimed at. Mr Olitbb supported the Bill, and affirmed the principle of settling the waste lands by means of companies at home, having direct personal interest in the welfare and progress of tho colony. He acquiesced in the Premier's views regarding the most approved method for constructing snob, works, arguing that the case of India proved that the guarantee system was a complete failure, despite the observations by Mr Maoandrew to the oon-

trary. He reminded them that when that gentleman was Minister for Public Works he proposed that these works should be oarried on at the rate of £2,000,000 per annum. To carry out such a proposal tho colony must have gone into the money market. He also reminded them of the Tapanui railway job, promoted by Mr Maoandrew, and which was carried out on the

1 principle of land being appropriated to pay tho cost. Ho said that if it was objected to otherwise, why not allow the Wellington, West Coast line, Canterbury Interior, and Otago Central to be gone on with under this Bill, and allow its general applications to stand oyer, if they were considered improper. He argued that the reservation of minerals was an improper one, and contended that the difficulty couid be got over by a reservation that J minerals subjectly discovered should pay a J royalty. Altogether he thought tho Bill | could bo made a good workable measure. I Mr Moss thought the Bill was of no use so I fhr as the North Island was concerned. Under | thflbe circumstances the prospects of progress | would be confined to the Sonth Island. They ! had plenty of Maori land in the North, hat he • knew of yery littlo Crown land. He should like to seo a statement of the Crown lands, so as to ascertain where the railways were likely to be made. He also objected to the Bill, insomuch as a large company would stand a very fair chance of becoming muoh stronger than the Government, and in that case, instead of the Government keeping the company in check, the company would be able to keep the Government in chook. He did not think that any large sum of money could be got in the colony, and he asked them to conßidor what that meant. It meant an enormous drain upon the country to meet the annual charge on loans and additional loan. There were large districts where the publio works scheme did not apply, and he was afraid the Bill would only aggravate the evil. He desired to see some special provision made in the interests of these districts. He would, for these reasons, oppose the motion for the second reading. But he did eo reluctantly, as he looked on the Bill as one of importance for some places. Mr Collins 'supported the Bill. He believed it was the only chance there was for railways being provided for some parts of the colony otherwise neglected. At all events it would prevent one part of the colony being charged for railways made in another. Mr DkLautotjh reminded thorn that the three railways specially alluded to were lines that a Boyal Commission had reported should nois be made at all. The inducement that a company would have would be tho grant made out of the public estate. The argument that one district would not be made to pay for railways in another was utterly fallacious. The land was to be appropriated for the purpose of construction, and then the lines were to be undertaken by companies, and, of course, if they did not pay they would revert back to- the State. In that case, the system of one district paying for railways in another would be aggravated in its worst possible form. He believed that the true polioy would be to refrain from further borrowing until the works already constructed showed a margin sufficient to justify the resumption of these works. Mr Beid supported the motion, hut regretted that the Bill had come at such a late period of the session. He did not think there was sufficient time to consider it fully, and he would not be sorry to see it held over till next session.

Mr Lbtbstam would vote against tho second reading. Under the Public Works polioy as originally propounded a main trunk line was to be made through the North and South Islands. If that was done he would suoport the Bill, but until it was done he would not do so.

Mr Sbddon objected to the Bill, arguing that the proposal was altogether at variance with the polioy enunciated by the Government laßt session. The proposal was one which would suit some districts, but others —for instance the West Coast, it would not suit at all. He pointed out that, while the ostensible object of the Bill was that the lines to be formed should aot as feeder lines, the Welling-ton-West Coast line would direct the traffio at present going by the Government lines on to the projected company lines. He also pointed out that the reference to Parliament would entail a delay of twelve months before anything practicable oould be done, and by that time the oolony would be free to go into the money market on its own account. In that case it would be better for the colony to carry out the original policy and complete, at all events, the main trunk lines. This was a departure from the Publio Works policy, and as such it was a fitting subject on which to go to the country upon. Mr J. T. Fisher contended that the question hod been already before the coußtry, and that they were in a position to decide upon it. Had a policy of this kind been inaugurated ten years ago it would have been much better for the colony. He would support the motion.

Mr Shbfhars objected to the principle of the Bill as antagonistic to the spirit of the public works policy. The Bill itself was an extravagant measure, proposing as it did a bonuß to induce companies to undertake the works which it was the duty of the State to do. He hoped and believed that the Bill would not pass. Mr Gibbs also opposed the Bill.

Mr Weston spoko in favor of the proposal mode by Mr Bastings, that the Bill should be referred to a committee of practical men to put it into shape. He strongly urged the necessity for passing the Bill. The Hon. J. Hall replied that he could not agree with all the objections stated to the Bill. It was not to be expected that the proposal to deal with railway works on a new principle would meet all parts of the colony. He would be prepared in committee to accept amicablo amendments, and before propsing to commit the Bill would carefully consider the proposal to refer it to a Select Committee. The House divided—Ayes, 31 ; noes, 5. The Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed to-morrow. The House rcse at 1.20