PARLIAMENTARY.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2290, 4 August 1881, Page 3

PARLIAMENTARY.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, August 3. The Legislative Council met at 230 p.m., and resumed the discussion of the Licensing Bill in committee. Amendments of a minor naturo were very numerous, and there were two divisions on proposed amendments. The first was on clause 145. providing a penalty for publicans harboring prostitutes, whioh was moved to be struck out, but the clause was retained by 17 to 11. The second division was on an alteration in clause 189, the words, " to the knowledge of such person," being struok out by 14 to 13. By this amendment publioans are made punishable for selling adulterated liquors either wittingly or unwittingly. At 5 p.m. the Bill was finished except the postponed clauses and the new Club clauses, which were postponed till next day, and the Council rose.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wednesday, August 3. petition. The House met at 2.30 p.m. Sir W. Fox presented a petition from certain members of the Law Practitioners' Society in Wellington, protesting against the Law Pxactitioners Bill before Parliament. NOTICE OB MOTION. Mr Finn gave notioe that he wouljl move an address to the Governor asking that a further sum of money be placed on the estimates for volunteer purposes. The Hon J. Hall announced his indention of moving that in future the House sit at 7.30 p.m. on Mondays, and that one of the private members' days in each week be given for Government business. questions. Replying to Mr Reeves, The Hon. T. Dick said the Government was now aware that Chas. Ryland Tylden had been bound over to keep the peace. The affray was a trifling one, and one whioh did not affect his oharacter in relation to his recent appointment as a justice of the peace, and Government did not intend to take any I further aotion in the matter. I Replying to Mr Hutohison, The Hon. W. Bollbston said that the award of 1834 acres to Hone Pihama was made in conformity with a promise made by the late Sir D. McLean, and the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners, and the award of 763 acres to his hapu was made in respect of a similar recommendation, which indicated the land as being situated between oertain boundaries. At one time it was supposed that that land was of greater extent, but the Natives themselves quite understood this was the land to be given. He was in a position to give a flat denial to the rumor that Hone Pihama and Major Parris, the special local commissioner, had a joint, interest in the land awarded to the former, and he deprecated the action of the hon. member in putting such a question upon th& order paper. Replying to Mr Finn, The Hon. W. Rollbbton said that Government was not in a position to say that it intended to relinquish negotiations in respect to the purohase of Native land on the East Coast. The law directed how theße announce ments should be made, and its provisions would be strictly conformed with. Replying to Sir G. Grey, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that tho 10 per cent, reduction was mr-de for July it accordance with a resolution of the House. If the estimates as framed were paesud by tho House, then that amount would be refunded from the 30th June. Roplying to Mr Finn, The Hon. W. Rollbeton said that airections had been given to pay the costs awarded by Judges of Assessment Courts to euccesiful objectors to Government valuations. Replying lo Mr Bryce, The Hon. J. Hall said that the commutation of Wh»repari'B,;tbeCtir.tham Island murderer, sentence" had not been reported to the Secretary of State. NEW BILLS. The following Bills were introduced and

read a first time :—Kafcanui Harbor Board Borrowing (Mr Shrimski), Railway Oomtruotion and Land ; to Amend the Canterbury Bivera Act (Mr Hall). steam: communication. Mr Macakdeew moved—" That a cocmittee bt appointed to consider and report as to the best means of establishing a direct steam service between New Zealand and the mother country, the committee to consist of Mr Bain, Sir G. Grey, Messrs Hutchison, Johnston, Montgomery, Oliver, Pitt, Bichardson, Beeves, and the mover." He thought that the colony could well afford a service of the kind indicated ; indeed, he thought the time had arrived when the colony could not afford to do without it. A direct line like this would be a great incentive to the right class of immigrants being imported into New Zsaland. The great difficulty we had to contend with was the length of the gfa voyage. If they could reduce the time to thirty or thirty-five days that difficulty would be practically overcome. On the other hand, it would open up direct communication with the home market for their produce. The Hon W. Johnston said that Government had no obiection to the motion, and were quite alive to the importance of direct communication being established. The motion was put and carried. THE LKGISLATIVB COUNCIL

Dr. Wallib moved—" That the time hag come when members of the Legislative Council should be elected by the people of the colony." He argued that the nominative system gave the Ministry of the day an opportunity for acting oorruptly. They were enabled to appoint their own partizans to the Upper Chamber. For example : The Grey Ministry were in a manner forced to appoint no fewer than nine councillors to enable them to carry on the business. The result was that it was not the wealth or yet the intelligence of the country that was called to the Upper House, but the most subservient partizans of a particular Government. In that way the Chamber was in danger of becoming crowded with political partisans. Then again, he objected to its present constitution, insomuch a« it was a life-long appointment and it enabled Ministers to appoint their own particular friends and reward them with a small pension for life. It also tended to create an aristocracy, a class with all the feeling of the aristocracy. Their life-long appointment gave them a complete control over the legislature, and he thought the time had come for the step proposed by the motion. Mr Bbid supported the motion. At the same time he thought that certain modifications in the proposal were desirable. Mr Bussblli did not think it was a question which wag exercising the public mind to uny great extent outside Parliament itself. He looked upon the system of nomination as being the right one. At the same time he did not agree with the nomination being for life. The chief features of the Upper House were calmness and deliberation, and if they did away with its nominative character these characteristics would be destroyed. They could not poieibly withstand pnblio feeling and opinion for any great length of time. Were they to retire after, say, a five years' term of office, he believed that an arrangement of the kind would be .more in accordance with the publio feeling. The Hon. J. Hail regretted that the question would not receive that full discussion and consideration it deserved. The original appearance of the Order Paper rendered it most unlikely that this motion would oome on so early. He did not think it would be well to abolish the second Chamber. It was moat desirable that there should be such a chamber, as a check wag absolutely necessary for the successful working of their institutions. As to the best mode of providing for that Chamber, the body, nominated ag it wag, had from first to last done good service. Still, he did not think that the nomination lor life wag the beet course to follow. The members were apt to get out of harmony with the times. He agreed that the nomination system wag liable to abuse, although he did not mean to gay that it had been abused. It was not a burning question, and ag such they were in a condition to discuss it calmly, and he wag glad that the matter had been ventilated. What they wanted was the best men they could get for the Legislative Council. There were many men who had all the requisite qualifications for efficient councillors, who yet lacked tha ability to make themselves popular enongh to secure the popular vote. He would, therefore, say that it would be unwise to resort to <* system that would put both Chambers too much on a par, and thereby exclude that class of men from the Legislature. He thought the councillors should be elected by the House, and by ballot. Ex- Judges cf the Supreme Court, ex-Ministerg, and many men in private life were the class of men who would be most eligible for the Council, and by the means he proposed men of that class would stand the best chance of election. The whole question was one for ventilation, in order that the point might be carefully considered, and in that view he suggested that the motion should in the meantime be withdrawn.

Sir G. Geby cited the case of the Provincial Council, whose legislation was perfectly satisfactory, and yet it was done by a single ohamber. So long as they had two chambers they were bound to have hasty and imperfect legislation, as the one ohamber always, to a certain extent, left the care and consideration to the other. In fact, the effect of two chambers was to ore ate a careless one, the feeling being that the check would be found in the other chamber. He insisted that it was the duty of the Legislature, to be guided by a well expressed popular opinion, and therefore the argument against legislation being swayed by the popular opinion was completely answered. He insisted that the real state of matters was that the Upper House had stood in the way of good legislation. They had all along moulded the land laws in the interests of the squatter. It was wrong that there should be a second chamber to which a defeated candidate, who was useful to a Government,might be called. It was unjust and antagonistic to common sense. Was it right that a gentleman like the Premier should be allowed to resign his position :n that chamber when he thought fit, and yet the Crown was bound to retain him, if he thought fit, a member of that ohamber for life. In an arrangement of that kind there was a disparity which ought not to exist. Ho one could call it a healthy state of things. Such a state of things ought not to be allowed to exist for a single day. He understood that the Premier intended to introduce a Bill to modify the constitution of the Upper House. That was what he led the country to expect, and he called upon the Government to make good that expectation, and he was sure they would all aid the Government in the endeavor. Col. Tbimulh thought that a committee of the Lower House could oarry out, under certain conditions, all the functions now done by the other chamber. The debate was interrupted by the 5 30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. TIMXatT HABBOB ENDOWMENT. The House went into committee on the Timaru Harbor Board Endowment Bill. The Hon. W. Rollbstow oppoiod clause 3, providing for a landed endowment. Mr Wakefield defended the clause, contending that the work was of colonial and not mere local interest. The Hon. J. Hail Baid that some two years ago the Uouse was perfectly inundated with Bills of this kind, and it was then decided that these landed endowments would not be listened to. All the other places had taken the hint, and they had been troubled with no more of these applications. If they were now going to depart from that determination, then the course was for them first to affirm tha principle. By following that course they would all be enabled to start fair, and Timaru would get no advantage over the other harbors.

The House divided—Ayes, 36; noe», 19. The clause was passed. On the question that the schedule he adopted, Mr Whitakebprotested against the puDho estate being disposed of in this way. He said it was evidently the idea of those who had supported this Bill that they would be able to introduce and carry a Bill for a similar purpose. Ho eskcd them to remember what would be the effect which a wholesale scramble for harbor endowment would bring about. He hoped they would pause before repeating a demoralising proceeding of that kind. On the suggestion of Mr Shkkiiak, Kr Tur-bull who was in charge of the Bill, agreed to accept the first part of the schedule alor>e. reducing tho endowment from 100,000 to 50,000 acres. Tho schedule was amended accordingly, and on the question beine pi-t The House divided —Ayes, 33 ; noes, 22. The Bill was reported withfameiidmeistG and ordered to be considered en Wednesday.

POBTPONBSIBNT. The Duration of Parliament Bill was postponed for a week. SECOND BEADING. Mr "WbSTON moved the second reading of the Offences Against the Persons Act Amendment Bill. Mr Da Laittoub invited the House to consider the Bill carefully. The tendency o£ introducing the lash as proposed wan to brutalise instead of repress crime. They should refrain, as fur as powiblo, from interfering with the criminal law until that reform now going on in England had further developed. They should not follow that development strictly, but simply should look to it for their counsel and guidance. He hopod that the motion would not bo pressod. Mr Fulton agreed with the clauses of the Bi!! objected to by the previous speaker. He knew trom experience of such cases as a Magistrate, that it was an exlroinoly difficult thing to get a woman who bad beon brutally assaulted to give evidence. The lash was the only adequate punishment that oould bo awarded to this class of oowardly assailants.

Mr Stkwabt agreed with the principle of the Bill, and not the details. Alluding to the age at which consent might be given by females, namely, thirteen years, he said that it was well known that in the ooloniea, girls of twelve or thirteen years of age were upon the streets. In that case it would be competent for such females to turn round and get a very serious punishment inflicted on the men whom they had solicited. He suggested that the age should be restricted to ton years. Those cases between husband and wife, if enoouraged, would lead to endless strife. A married woman had Buffioient protection under the Married Woman's Protection Act; and if cruelty was persisted in she could easily provide for her protection under that Aot. In many oases it was the husband who required protection. It was absurd to debar a husband simply because in a hasty moment he might happen to be guilty of an indiscretion. In nine cases out of ten these things were fomented by third parties, and after the law had been set in motion the chances were that no one was more sorry for it than the wife herself. In that way, if this Bill passed into law, the domestic comfort of many would be liable to be irretrievably destroyed. He could aeo no neoessity for this special legislation and punishment. He said that a Bill in the other Chamber had been promoted with the view of providing stripes as a punishment for another class of offenders. He thought it would be better to deal with the whole question of whipping in a general measure. Sir G-. Obey thought it would be well to gather experience in this matter from the past. At one time death was looked upon as the only proper penalty for almost every oflonce. Then again the lash was looked upon as the only proper penalty for a great number of offenoes. After the struggle of years these punishments were all but abolished, Wiat he did implore them to do was not to introduce the punishment of flogging. If they allowed it to creep in it would be again resorted to in all its horrors. Ho hoped they would pause before taking a step of this serious nature. If once a legislature embarked in a course of this kind, it was generally found that it went on from step to step until the thing was resorted to almost under every circumstance.

The Hon. W. Rolxhstow hoped the clauses providing for flogging would be passed. If the BUI was not passed it might fairly be taken as a symptom that the House meant to deal lightly with scoundrels. Ho would make the age of females consenting 14 instead of 13 years. It seemed to him that the experience of their magistrates like the member for Oaversham should not go for nothing. He would support the motion. Mr Spbight pointed out that the Bill proposed to place in the hands of J.P.'s the power to inflict the punishment of flogging for being guilty of a momentary fit of passion. The Bill would defeat its own ends. They were going the wrong way to put a stop to the abuses practised upon women. No wife who had the slightest regard for her husband—and no matter how much she might be abused, she invariably retained some feeling of that kind—would ever think of exposing her husband to suoh a debasement as that proposed by the Act. In that case this Act provided the very means likely to defeat the ends of justice. A law like this meant the breaking up of the domestio peace, and they should pause before adopting it. As regarded the consent of young girls, he thought that it was a retrograde movement altogether. The Bill suggested to him the idea of being a hideous measure, one that would be most prolific in domestio misery. Ho would feel a burning sense of shame were he to be a party to a measure ol this kind.

Mr Stevens agreed that the offence of wife beating was bo prevalent in the colony that it was evident that the existing penalty was insufficient for its repression. There were several offences for which the lash was provided, therefore it was no novelty. He argued that the offence of wife beating was far more brutalising to the rising generation than the punishment proposed by this Bill would be to the wife beater. The offence was one demanding further legislation, and he held that the penalty proposed was the direction in which they should go. Mr Mosa said that the last speaker made out the argument used by Sir G. Grey, namely, that as flogging had been already introduced into their legislation it was no novelty, and might well be still further extended.

Mr Eeid would vote for the second reading, in the hope that the third clause would be struck out. The clause ought to be made general and not restricted to wife or female with whom the man cohabited. If it was thought advisable at all, a fact which he disputed, tho punishment was far too great. Mr Babkon supported the clause. The offence was a dastardly one, and the punishment was not at all too great. Mr J. B. Fibhbe said that punishments of this kind would have the effeot of defeating the very purpose for which they were intended. Once a punishment of this kind had been inflicted, all ohance of reconciliation between man and wife must be at an end. Then, again, the effect on children was equally debasing. Beturning to the clause regarding the consent of young persons, he reminded *;hem that in the colony girls of fourteen years were in many instances fully developed women, audit was nonsense to say that they were not capable of being consenting parties. If tho Bill went into committee he would move that the lash be only resorted to on conviction under indictment. Whipping was a degrading thing, and ought not to be lightly resorted to. Mr Botvisn thought that the lash should only be resorted to under an indictment, and not for a first offence. There was nothing but whipping for habitual wife abuse. In such a case he could see no reason why the; should have the least consideration for the offender. It seemed to him that the tendency of the day was to entertain a sentiment for tho feelings of criminals to the detriment of the well behaved classes of the community. Where a girl was known to be a prostitute some exceptions should be made, but in other coses he believed tho punishment was well earned. Mr Pybtb considered the Bill one for the protection of wife beaters. He regarded with disgust tho man who would bo guilty of such conduct, still he could see that a punishment of this kind rendered the man's condition irretrievable. Such being the caso, it was not for a moment to be supposed that any woman would expose her husband to such consequences. An assault might consist of a man shaking his fiat in the woman's faoe, and for suoh an offence the man could be had up and flagged. Suoh a proposal was ridiculous. Colonel Tbistblb agreed in the opinion that the lash should only be applied on conviction under indictment, and on a second or subsequent offence. There were, ho argued, many criminals who could only be reached by physical punishment, and offenders of this class for the most part belonged to this category. He did not look upon the prematurity of children in these colonies as any plea for making the age younger than that proposed by the Bill. Mr TUKNBtrLIi would support the motion, but at the same time ho would see that certain modifications were provided for.

The Hon. J. Hall said that he would support tho motion. Ha paid great deference to what had been said by Mr Fulton. Wife beating wan an offence which was on the increase, and it wan necessary to do something for its repression. The punishment provided for would, he bolioved, have that tendency. The Bill required amendment. Whipping should only be for an aggravated asoault, and onjthe understandicgthat it would be amended in thiM direction ho would support it. Mr Levebtait and Mr Lltndon opposed the Bill.

Mr Wbston replied. Tbo second reading was negativ.d or a division by 23 to 19.