MR. STEVENS AT CHRISTCHURCH.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2231, 22 April 1881, Page 3

MR. STEVENS AT CHRISTCHURCH.

Mr E. C. J. Stevens, one ef the members fer Christchurch, addressed his constituents latt night at the Academy of Music. There was a fairly numerous attendance. iris Worship the Mayor occupied the chair, and in introducing Mr Stevens, said that they were no doubt aware that the meeting had been convened to bear Mr Stevens’ views on the subjects which were likely to come before the Assembly. He felt they would —as Christchurch people always did—listen to what Mr Stevens had to say with patience and interest. [Hear]. Mr Stevens said—Mr Mayor and gentlemen : I have asked the electors of this constituency to meet me to night in order that I might express to them certain opinions which I hold upon a variety of very important subjects—subjects which I think should not any longer bo allowed to pass unnoticed, nor without very careful consideration, especially in view of the approaching session of Parliament. In order to place before you moat satisfactorily the position of affairs in regard to the important subject of representation, I would like to ask your attention for a few minutes to the alterations which have taken place in the matter of the franchise. This has been greatly simplified, and we have now only the residential qualification and a small freehold qualification besides. In fact, I believe that we have now as simple a system of electoral franchise as it is possible to devise, unless you desire to da away with the property qualification altogether. I am not going into the question of electoral franchise generally to-night, because that is a mat'er which will shortly have to be dealt with by the various constituencies of the colony. I do not believe, however, that the people ©f the colony are prepared to part with tbo property qualification in favor of the one residential vote, and the one residential vote only. I think, as many others think, that there is a certain amoant of permanence and solidity resulting from the property qualification, and though it may ba considered advisable at some future time to make a change, I do not believe that at present there is any likelihood of any change being made. Those who hold different opinions on the matter will, however, he able to express them at the next general election. There can be no doubt that our electoral system wants reforming, and it is to be hoped that the Eegnlation of Elections Bill will be passed during the next session of Parliament. It is quite clear to my mind that before long we shall have to pass a measure regulating the elections. I have long been an advocate of an alteration in the hours of polling, and I have thought that the time of closing the poll should be eight o’clock in tbe evening, or even later. My parliamentary experience has taught mo that this change is necessary, and I hold that the hours daring which the poll is open should be extended, in order that every elector should be allowed every facility for recording his vote. The public should have every opportunity of expressing its voice, and the representatives who were returned by the public should ba bound by the voice of their constituents. I have done all I could in the matter, but I do not think that there will he a sufficient number of members in the House who will support me in getting the hours of closing the polling extended beyond six o’clock in the evening. The last thing I have to point out in connection with the electoral system is that the present Parliament will not be in existence after the end of February, if it survives so long. This was brought about by tbe passing of the Triennial Parliaments Bill, of which I have always been _ an advocate. After the close of the coming session, each Parliament will only be of three years’ duration, so that the electors of each constituency will soon be able to make changes in the personnel of their representatives if they think proper to do so. The present Parliament is nearly at an end, and in speaking as I do, in the face of the fact that there is another election before ns, 1 apeak to you almost as one that is dead—unless, of course, you may think proper to send me to Parliament again as yonr representative. [Applause.] Now with regard to the question of representation. It cannot be doubted that a change is necessary in regard to the distribution of seats. The fact is that the large centres of population have been practically unrepresented, and the time has now come when a change should be made. Some time ago a Bill was introduced into Parliament in which it was proposed that practically the representation should be on the basis of population; but that there should be a pull of 2b per cent against the boroughs. I objected to that at the last general election, and yon agreed with me. That Bill was brought down by tho late Government, and the present Government brought forward a measure which was of a somewhat similar nature. I did not agree with either of those Bills, for I have no sympathy with the view that when a privilege of this sort is granted it is to be limited. I say that representation should bo on the basis of population pure and simple. 1 do not think however that representation on that basis is likely to become an accomplished fact, because I know that there is a majority against it. This question has an important beating on this city. Eor example, last session I was requested to communicate with tbe SurveyorGeneral with regard to tho manner in which this electoral district should be laid out, and I made certain recommendations. I know that Sydenham was of sufficient importance to have a member of its own, and I recommended that it should have one. I recommended also that it wonld be well to divide tho city into north and south, each of which districts should have a member, and X also recommended that the other suburbs should be represented. I considered that there should bo two members for the suburbs, but cf course one had to take what one could get. It was decided that there should be one member for the city north of Worcester street, and one for the city south of that street. That, with one member for Sydenham and one

I for the suburbs, ia what is now proposed m the Bill. There ought to be another member, but I do not think there ia any chance of getting one at present. We must be contented with what we can get in the meantime. I will now deal with the question of finance, but I will not inflict on you many figures, because I feel that that would not do much good ; but I am obliged to say a few words on the subject, because great financial changes have taken place. There have been very large reductions in public expenditure, principally in the reduction of salaries of civil servants, and in the withdrawal of subsidies from local bodies ; and there _ has also been a good deal of fresh taxation imposed. These are things which a public man has to express an opinion npon. I may say that there has been a general impression that the statement that when the present Government took office there was a large defieit was incorrect, but that ia not the case. It was said that matters were exaggerated, but that is not so. The thing was not exaggerated in the slightest degree. In fact, between ourselves, things were alarming in the highest degree, and the climax came sooner than 1 expected. There was the collapse of the land fund while the debt of the colony was accumulating. The fact is t 'at the colony was in a very bad state. I do not say who was responsible for this. I do not wish to praise or blame anybody for it, because neither praise nor blame will do any good now, and will not alter the state of affairs. I am happy to be able to say that the position has been met manfully by the people of the colony, and that the people did all that was neceisapy to keep up their credit. That well known poem, “ The Brook,” says — “ Mon may come and men may go. But I go on for ever.” Well, the colony is like the hrook—Governments may come and Governments may go, but it has got to keep its credit going, and it will doit. [Applause.] An impression has got abroad to the effect that the reductions which have been made in the Civil Service were unnecessary, as there would bo a surplus at the end of the year. But I say there will not be a surplus this year. There may be an apparent surplus—that is to s <y, there will not have been sufficient money spent to show a deficit during the past year, but it must bo remembered that wo have swept away nearly a million; or, more correctly speaking, .£992,000 of our debts, and we started clear as from the Slat March, 1880. It was known all along that there would be a deficit for the year. Any moneys that we had unexpended on the 31st March last will, of course, go towards clearing off the deficiency that appeared on the Ist of April. I reckon that there will be about £130,000 deficit for the year just ended. There is no doubt whatever that these three things—namely, reductions of salaries, withdrawal of subsidies, and increased taxation—were necessary. I do not think I am wrong in saying that these things had to be done. Mow with regard to the reductions. It has been said that these were unnecessary and injudicious, and that the expenditure should have been decreased in some other way. It has been said that officers who received large salaries should have been cut down, while those who only received small salaries should not have been touched at all. I do not understand the logic of that, because the civil servants in this colony are not at all highly paid; in fact, they do not receive such good salaries as many persons who are employed privately do. I do not see how anything but the all-round redaction could have been satisfactory. [An elector: Why not try the sliding scale ? ] Mr Stevens—l have heard a great deal about the sliding scale, but I would advise yon to take the estimates and go through them, and see how the sliding scale would work out. Of course it must always be borne in mind that the main object is to save money. With regard to the withdrawal of the subsidies to local bodies, I can only say that I approve of it, for I do not think that it is a wise thing that local bodies should depend on the revenue ef the colony for the money which they have to spend. I feel that, owing to the financial position of the colony, the time for the withdrawal of these subsidies has come. Now I come to the Property Tax I have heard that this tax is considered to bo inquisitorial, unjust, and iniquitous. Perhaps those who say so think they are right. I think I am justified in giving an opinion, when I tell this meeting that within the last month I have signed cheques for between oneninetieth and ol e hundredth part of the property tax of the whole of the colony, for property belonging to other persons as well as to myself. [An Elector—“l am glad it touches outsiders like that.”] A direct tax it is, no doubt, but I say that it is not inquisitorial, not unjust, and not iniquitous. Now I would like to know whether a person having to pay away such a sum. and who possesses a thorough knowledge of what affects the concerns of capitalists and every conceivable species of property, whether such a man’s opinion is worth anything or not. [A Voice — “ It ought to be.”] I quite agree with you. It ought to be. Now let ns inquire into the matter. So far as the charge goes that the tax is more inquisitorial than any other direct taxation, T would ask you to consider on the other hand what would bo the effect of an income tax? What weald you do with it if you hud it, and how impose it f Yon would have to take the property of the colony, which has been estimated at £91.000,000 in land and the stock upon it, as against £18,000,000 of mortgages and a variety of smaller amounts. You would not have a certain income to come and go npon, such as shares in a company, but would have to create a sort of fictitious income in order to tax it that is, it would be necessary to put a value on the property in the first place, then put an income upon it, and tax that. Now, the property tax proceeds on a much simpler method, by ascertaining the actual selling value of the property and putting a tax upon that. We tax mortgages, for instance, on their actual value. I am prepared to admit that there are certain inequalities in the property tax, which no one could absolutely foresee, and these ought to bo rectified as soon as possible. I do not for a moment mean to say that there are not some cases in which inequalities have been shown to arise through the imposition of this tax, but I should bo sorry to condemn it upon that Understand me, that I am not speaking in this way of the property tax in order to confer praise upon the particular exponents of the theory ; I speak as to the actual business working of the measure. The fact of it ia this—that every man who has got property in the colony over the value of £SOO, is under it made to pay, and the man who has not property to that extent does not pay. Is not that a fair principle ? Under the land tax a man who virtually has no property —who, to use a popular phrase, is mortgaged up to the tips of his ears—ia liable'to taxation for the whole value of his land, and the mortgagor has not to pay sixpence. In this case the tax falls upon the property holder for land (which, practically, belongs to the man who holds a mortgage over it, and who derives a large income therefrom, whilst at the same time the State affords him ample security for money he has invested. The land tax is unfair in principle. It belongs to a system known as political taxation, and is a most dangerous and disastrous thing to introduce into a new country. No one holding a large estate would ever be driven to cut it up by means of it. At the same time it crushes the unfortunate proprietor, be ho small or large, who has a mortgage over his property. Take, for instance, the case of a small freeholder who happens to be struggling along in the hope of making his farm profitable, the tax comes upon him and crushes out the last drop of life-blood in him. This, gentlemen, would have been the effect if the land tax had been continued, and that is why I opposed it and the late Government [Mr Clepbane—“ Do you mean to say that it is nob deducted from the rental ?”J I say you pay the whole tax npon the whole value of the land under the land tax. [Mr Clephane—“ It is net a fact.”] Very well, you are at liberty to enjoy your opinion But i can show you, nevertheless, the law on the subject. [A Voice—" Minus the improvements.”] Yes, minus the improvements. But I was not speaking of improvements, but of the land. [A Voice-" They have discovered a mare’s nest.”] There is nothing of that sort in the property tax. There are, as I have said, certain things requiring amendment, but we have already discussed that point and I will not pursue this branch of my address further Now, gentlemen, I want to call your attention for a few minutes to the system under an income tax. Under the property tax wo say to a man, we tax you exactly on what you have got in the shape of capital, no matter whether you make five per cent., ten per cent., or fifteen per cent., or whatever it may he. Now. under the income tax the position would be quite different. You w ould tax people ns they are taxed in England. That is, upon the dividends in the case of a company, upon the working income, and, in short, the profits of the business. But it appears to me that a system like thatlof taxing the annual profits, as compared with taxing that which actually belongs to you, and which you hold in the shape of actual value, is very undesirable, more especially in a new country which is not settled, and with manufactures and other industries rising up within its boundaries. It appears to me that it is infinitely better that the actual property should be taxed rather than tax the profits of a business which are liable to fluctuations. local industries would receive less discouragement from a charge of that kind placed up in the actual capital employed. The prop.rty tax also possesses another advantage—which i.-, that it does not require the annual revision which must take place under an income tax; and under an income tax the income from a business may fluctuate to such an extent that it is absolutely necessary to make an annual revision, as is the case in England. Under the property tax there is a triennial revision. As I have said before, the system pursued under the property tax docs, in my opinion, appear to be tha least inquisitorial in character. The farmer can write down for the information of the Tax Office the extent of his property, the amount of mortgage npon it, if any, and the stock upon it; so can any merchant, with very little inconvenience, provide a balance sheet, made np to a particular point, to ascertain what he has to pay for actual value, and tha same again with the storekeeper, &o. Now,

under the income tax, the process ia widely different. I know a case in point which occurred within my experience, in 1874 whilst I was in England. I happened to be in a considerable place of business in London, and had a conversation with the proprietor on the subject of the income tax. Ho said to me, " They have put me down under the income tax at so much per year.” I asked him whether he was going to pay, to which he replied—“ I do not like it, bnt the assessor says if yon have any objection you will let me see your books, and then I shall be able to see what profit you have made.” Now, gentlemen, I ask yon as a practical question, which is the most inquisitorial—the system which directs you to put down the value of the property, and accepts your valuation, unless there is conid durable reason to believe yon have been misleading—or that which says, if you do not accept our valuation of your income—whatever it may be—it will be necessary to come and look at your lodger? [A Voice —" They are both the same!”] Are they? Well, I have been in business for many years, and I don’t think they are [Mr Treadwell —“In one case yen do not show your hand, and in the other you do.”] To candid men, showing their hands may not be objectionable sometimes. With regard to the cost of collecting, any tax must necessarily cost a good deal to collect in the first year of its imposition. Yon have no experience of the other—that ia the income tax. T on have no experience of it in the colony. I will not judge unfairly of that; but I do not see how it ia possible that the asssessment and collection of the income tax could he less than that of the property tax, when the latter is once set fairly in motion. Of course there is one point in tbo income tax which is not contemplated by the property tax at all; and I have heard a great deal of discussion about it—namely, the tax on what ate called professional incomes. [Hear, hear.] Now I have never heard professional incomes properly defined, [A Voice — " Income without capital.”] The property tax does not say anything of the kind. It simply says if you have capital derived from any source whatsoever, you shall pay a certain rate on that, but you shall not bo taxed on what you may make out of it, or on what you may earn professionally or in other pursuits. In England, persons are sailed npon to pay on their incomes, less a certain exemption, that is up to a certain sum. Bat its application to this country must be differently viewed. It would be f und inconvenient, and the expenditure on collection and amount of dissatisfaction that would be involved are impossible to conceive. The mere fact that it has been accepted in certain parts of the world—chiefly in the older countries—gives it a certain recommendation to the minds of some even in this colony. Bat, for my own part, I think it would be very undesirable to attempt anything of the kind, unless the time should come when it would be absolutely necessary. Now, gentlemen, I wish to say a few words on the question of the land fund. In the financial system of the present Government it has been excluded from the ordinary revenue, very properly so, in'my opinion, and ought not, therefore, to bo used for ordinary expenditure except in the last extremity. So far as we know at present, and fortunately, owing to successful sales on the West Coast of the North Island, there has been a considerable increase in the land fund—something more than £t 00,090 over the estimates of last year. [Applause.] Wo come now to the reduction in the salaries, and I may say that this was one of those things I should have opposed, but for the fact that the step proposed to be taken was absolutely necessary to help our finances. Indeed, a step of that kind is ono which is felt to bo most painful; indeed. I do not hesitate to say that I know of nothing more painful that conld be thrown upon a public man than that of having t > vote for a redaction of salaries. Nothing bnt a sense of positive duty would make any man do such a thing, unless the salaries paid were extravagant, which, by the way, they aro not. But the position of affairs financially in the Government was plainly such as to render the mo.t rigid economy a work of actual necessity. Therefore we had to see where we conld reduce. Unhappily in the business of this colony the burdens of the State are so enormous that yon cannot possibly get away from the fact that about one-half of the who’e of tha ordinary expenditure of the colony is gone in interest for loan. | Mr Treadwell —Yon brought it upon us ] I do not know what you mean, sir, by that remark. [Mr Treadwell—l mean that the representatives of the people have done it.] If yon speak in that general way I have no objection. I suppose you mean that all Parliaments during the past fifteen years have been desperately wicked? [Laughter ] [Mr Treadwell—" they have, sir.”] That is very likely, and so they always will be. [Renewed laughter.] I can assure yon, gentlemen, I do not believe you will ever have a Parliament that is not—oven if yon were to put in the gentleman who has been good enough to interrapt me. [Laughter and applause.] You are governed by Parliamentary Government. Snob is your pleasure, and yon will have to put up with it, however bad it may be. Your only plan, and indeed yonr duty, is to make it as good as you can, [A Voice—" Kick them out.”) That is the plan ; nothing like it. At the same time, I am not altogether sure that there are always as good fish in the sea as are taken ont of it. I am sorry to say that next year the finances will show an increase in the interest required to he paid—that is, it will reach more than a million and a-half instead of a little over £1,400,000 as it has been this year. That is, you may say, we shall have to pay away in interest on the debt ef the colony an amount representing one-half of the ordinary expenditure. This is in a general way. I do not pretend to speak exactly. I only profess to give a general idea. But anyone can see for himself the exact position if he chooses to examine it. And it is with regard to the general expenditure only that I desire to express myself on this point. It is difficult in approaching any item of expenditure to effect a reduction. For example, the whole country is covered with that which the public desire should exist, viz., police, Resident Magistrates, Courts, &c., telegraph offices, and post offices, some of which are _ self-supporting. The question arises, what is to be done to reduce expenditure? Will you give up any of these institutions ? You say “ No ” at once, and yon do not intend to give up the carrying of mails between the colony and England, because if you did no mails would come out—that would be the upahot of the matter. And there are other items of expenditure, more or less large, which it would be equally impossible to get rid of. Therefore, as I have said, when approaching this important question, it is difficult to see where expenditure can be saved. Parliament last session had to meet the difficulty and cut down the various items of expenditure wherever the slightest _ shadow of extravagance was made manifest or the smallest indication of luxury perceptible. Wherever such appeared off it went mercilessly, and it is only to regretted that we had to reduce the pay of public officials in order to save a very serious disaster to the colony. [Applause and interruption.] But, gentlemen, there is one item of expenditure, a very large and important one, which I grieve to say I fear ia in very great danger—and that I value more, perhaps, than anything else in the whole budget—l refer to education. [Applause.] I heard during last session of Parliament, and have heard since that period, whispers of very serious danger threatening the cause of popular education in the colony. I know that a large portion of the public of this colony—bnt I trust and believe not of this part of it—entertain a feeling of great dissatisfaction at the cost of State education, and a load murmur of disapproval as to the present system has made itself heard for some time past. I have heard that education ought not to be free for one thing, and I have heard, on the other hand, that the expenditure ought to be cut down. Now, gentlemen, ! have had a good deal of experience in watching the way in which the education of the country is conducted under th j Act of 1877, and I say that if there be one thing more than another I should lament it would be to see the system of education we now have in any degree impaired. [Applause.] It is all very well to say it is expensive. Of course it is. But what can bo expected. The question is—ls it too good? [Cries of " Noand a Voice—“ How about the High School ?”] Never mind the High School. I will talk about that presently if yon like. I am now discussing the primary education of tha colony. [Hear, hear.] I was for some time chairman of the committee of the largest school district in the Canterbury distrust—namely, that of East Christchurch, and from my own experience I can confidently say that the education imparted is not too good for anything like an enlightened community. [Applause.] Not in any respect are the children taught more than anybody ought to know. [A Voice—" They do not teach half as much as they ought ! ”] Very good ; and that is an excellent reason for not making it any worse. [ Laughter and applause.] I say this, that to fall suddenly upon education as the one thing to make up the deficiencies in the public finances would be a most unfortunate and disastrous policy, and it is one which I am not going to accept. But I think we might do this—we might follow the course wo have already begun, that is, do the same work and educate the same number of children at a somewhat smaller cost. [Hear, hear.] I have always, ever since I have been a representative of this city, refused to agree to an imposition of school fees. I have done so, not to please any number of people, but because I do not see any reason in it. How do you pay for education now? Why, ont of the consolidated _ fund. That is the revenue of the colony, which is contributed to by .everybody in the community, and I do not know of a better resting place for education than that. I disagree with paying a certain amount of the cost of education by capitation. I do not seo why the whole of it should not be paid from the source I have referred to. It is useless to say it could not bo afforded. It will have to bo paid by somebody, or you will have to go without it. Gentlemen, I am of opinion that the last thing wo should do would be to surrender the grand system of education which wo have only enjoyed for a limited period.

We have done our best to establish a system of education which will make this colony prominent among the nations of the earth long after ibe soil is closed over our heads, and edu cation of no concern to us. Let us guard it. therefore carefully. I say that tie system now established in ihs colony will in future years, and even in future generations, do more for this f country than any conceivable thing devised. X think I it ay venture to give you the assurance that so long as I may be a public man I will do everything, so far as my intelligence and observations carry me, not to impair the present system of education now existing in this colony. [Applause.] [Mr Oliver : Don’t forget the Fire Brigades Bill.] No, I will not forget that; but I am now speaking of largo colonial questions, and I think you will agree with me that it can scarcely be called such. [Laughter ] There is one thing I forgot to mention, gentlemen, and it relates to the advocates of the income tax. There are some people in this country who advocate an income tax, in order to make it come on the bondholders of the colony. Now, lam of opinion that it would be a and an issentialiy improper thing. It would, in fact, be a breach of faith. Nothing will induce me to support any proposition of the kind. Now, I propose to say a few words on Vntive affairs. I view with great satisfaction the improvement which has taken place in regard to Native affairs in the North Island. The expenditure in the Native office has been considerably reduced; and, no doubt, properly so. Bnt, beyond making that observation, I do not care to dwell mnch upon it, because the item is not one which requires much discussion. It is, however, satisfactory to know that Native affairs generally are in a satisfactory and less threatening position than they wore some time since. The land is being sold, the Natives »ro less troublesome, and I believe that all danger of an outbreak, so long ns a reasonaable force is kept up, is at an end. The work that has been performed by Sir William Fox and Sir Dillon Bell, Commissioners, is of inestimable value. The worth of their labors will be felt in the colonv for many years to come, and I may say that I believe the upshot of the matter will be that the most fortunate results will enane. At the same time, I do not mean to say that some expenditure in providing for the public safety must not still be incurred. All the men I know who understand anything about the matter say that some degree of force must be kept np, and I think, therefore, we may consider that it will be necessary to maintain a certain degree of armed protection, however much we may regret it I do nut wish, gentlemen, nowto go farther into this question nor to dwell upon it, bnt I will ask yonr attention for a low moments while I address a word or two to yon on the subject of the Native lands. This is a question of very great importance, and one which interests as here in tha Middle Island as much as it does the North. My view as to what is the proper thing to be done by the Government in dealing with these Native lands is this—that every facility should bo given for the settlement of the North Island, which, gentlemen, is what we, as well as the rest of the colony, are interested in, by allowing the individualisation of titles by the Native owners who might desire to do so; in fact, allowing the Native proprietors to deal with the land alter this has been done as they pleased, without the necessity of the interference of the Native Lands Court or the Government. That simply means that the Natives would be enabled to sell or lease it to anyone they pleased. [Heir, hear.] Mj reason for arriving at this opinion is that I have seen so much —and no doubt everyone who has taken the trouble 13 watch the course of events has done so likewise —of the interference by Government with Native lands having the effect of keeping back the settlement of the North Itland. And I say this—that, in the interests of thejMiddle Island, as well as a matter of general expediency, it is absolutely necessary that every facility should be given in the way I propose for the settlement of the K orth Island. I would allow nothing to stand between the Natives and anyone who might desire to purchase the land after the individualisation of the title.

[A Voice not even Russell. [Another Voice—“ >or Whitaker.”] No, not Whitaker. [Laughter and cheers.] As I have said what 1 desire to see, and what I think is for the general benefit of the colony, is the settlement of the North Island'as largelyand closely as the Middle Island already is. [Cheers ] And the proposal to which i have referred will. I think, do this more effectually than anything else. Gentlemen, it really makes little difference either to you or to me whether a man makes a good bargain with the Natives for any land he may happen to want or not. We should rather feel inclined to say Heaven speed him, and that he might get on to the land and settle it ns quickly as possible [Hear, hear.] Let ns get a large population oom ortably settled on the North Island, and wo shall then have no talk’abont Patetere, and an end will be most effectually put to- that terrible obstacle which has existed for years the power of interference by the Government with the sale of Native lands. [Ex-Judge Weston—You will, I think, Mr Stevens, have a great many more difficulties in the way than have ever existed if you allow the whole of the Native lands to be of as you propose, without making any provision for reserves, &o.J I thank Mr Weston for his interruption. I did not say that all the lands were to be sold. What 1 said was that I was in favor of allowing the Natives who might desire to do so to individualise their titles, and then to sell or lease as they pleased, without the necessity of going to the Native hands Court or the Government. Of course I meant, when I said this, that these rules should be irrespective of any reserves which it might be considered necessary to make for Native purposes. [ExJudge Weston so.”] Well, I am obliged to y.u for enabling mo to explain what I _ meant. Therefore, gentlemen, holding the opinion I have stated to you as to the method of dealing with the Native lands, I opposed the clause in the Government Bill of last year which made it compulsory on the Natives to coma in to the Native hands Courts to sell their land. Those who voted with me voted for it being made permissive—that is, we voted for [the word “ may” instead of the word “ shall,” and the Bill was dropped. Now, gentlemen, I wish to say a few words with regard to the Hospital and Charitable Aid Bill. Wo had been going on for some time without any law applicable to or governing hospitals and other institutions of a similar nature and scope. At present some of our hospitals in the large centres of population— snch as in Christchurch, for instance —are managed by Hospital Boards, and

I may say that for myself, as, I _ believe, for many others of the public also, 1 have for years past been anxious that something should be done with to this subject, so that the hospitals, &c., might be placed under some definite system of Government—that by Boards being admittedly a temporary expedient. The Bill brought forward by the Government, though not everything I could wish, yet I think would have been fonnd adequate to supply that legislation with regard to the government of the hospitals which we have seen the want of. It is to be regretted, I think, that owing to the want of push on the part of the Government, they failed to get the Bill through; but there is this to be said, that in bringing in a Bill of this kind there was a far greater diversity of opinion on the subject than on many others we discussed during the session. At the same time, I hope we shall be able yet to carry a Bill for the management of hospitals and the general conduct of the charitable aid system. [Cheers.] The subject, gentlemen, is one of very great importance, and so much did 1 think of it that I was of opinion that hospitals, &c., ought to be supported by some considerable endowment of land. [Hear, hear ] I have spoken on this subject frequently before, both here and in Parliament ; and last session I was invited by several prominent members to take in charge a Bill with this object. I suppose this was because not being of very strong political proclivities it stood a better chance of being carried than if it were introduced by a stronger party man. I drew a Bill, anl one of the provisions was the setting aside of one million acres of land as an endowment for hospitals &c., not necessarily reserved entirely from sale, but if the land was sold or leased, the proceeds accruing from it should be devoted towards a fund for supplying the large and annually recurring expenditure under this head. We had a very long debate on it, and it met with some opposition, but ultimately wo carried it. I believe that this Bill, had it come into force, would have provided permanently for the settlement of a very serious public difficulty, and constituted a revenue whereby these institutions would be supported, if not wholly, at least in a large degree. Besides, gentlemen, we looked upon it that we had pulled out of the fire a large portion of the public lands for an important public purpose. [Cheers.] Well, gentlemen, t am sorry to say that when the Bill reached the Legislative Council they threw it out. Not only so, but it met with most determined opposition, and w r as thrown out by the largest majority recorded against any measure that session. Now, gentlemen, I am not going to say one word against the Legislative Council because they threw out my Bill. The Legislative Council is a very important and very useful chamber of the Legislature, it has dene a great deal of good in the past, and perhaps may do more in the future, [a Voice—“No, no. their time is past.’’] Ihe great point for regret is that I don’t think a Bill will pass with this provision, and it is hard to say what is to bo done in the matter, unless the necessary amount is voted annually out of the consolidated fund, which simply means halt starving the institutions. [Hear, hear.] I really don’t know what is the best course to pursue. [A Voice — "Try again.”] Now, gentlemen, I think as I have referred to the vaiions subjects of interest to you, I will bring my remarks to a close, more particularly as I expect—nay, hope—that a largo number of questions on many points will be put to me, which I shall he pleased to answer. Cut let me eay this, that I have the highest possible opinion as to the future of the colony. [Cheers.] Though I

have not sketched the position of the co'ony in the highest possible colors, I believe most firmly that we have entered on a brighter, more stable, and better state of things. [ H er.r, hear.] Depression of some kind of conrso we must expect for a time; but, gentlemen, I feel sure of tbis, that we shall be all rignt ultimately. All wo want is, what I firmly believe we possess :n n very eminent degree, good plucky hearts to face our temporary difficulties, \Ve have a o rand country; a splendid climate, unequalled by any other in the world ; cheap food, and though porhats we have not a large amount of pocket money just now at our disposal, I believe we are yet going to be a groat and powerful colony. [Cheers.] We have had large burdens thrown on ns. but the expenditure has been largely on account of public works—works intended to open up and increase the facilities of communication possessed by the country. Added to this, wo have spent some two millions in emigration since 1871. Then there are water races and other works which have been executed at the public request. It does not become us therefore to cry over the result. The public works have largely benefited the country as a whole. Perhaps they would have done more so had th»y been carried out more gradually. Ido not say they would, but perhaps if they had been constructed so as to extend over a longer period of time, wo should have been better oil; but the fact was they ran away with the country. You will all, as Ido myself, remember the clamour which was made some ten years ago for expenditure on public works in various localities. Well, now we have had the expenditure, and we have got to pay for it. The facilities of communication have, as I said just now, been very largely increased and improved. At any rate we have got something out of the expenditure,and the colony is going ahead. I believe that we shall now no longer bs under a cloud, bnt that the scale will be turned, [c heers.] Gentlemen, I have touched on the subjects which are likely to occupy onr attention next session. After that it will bo for you to say what are to be the subjects of policy and who are the men you will send there to carry it out. [Cheers.] An Elector—Mr Stevens, yon have not touched on the subject of the West Coast Kailway. Mr Stevens—No, because I felt sure that I should have to answer a number of questions on the snbjoct. However, since yon have mentioned the subject, I will ray a word or two on it. When the late Gov. rnment took office, I may say that I took groat interest in the matter. In 1878 I communicated with the Chamber of Commerce here, and also saw the then Minister of Public Works in conjunction with the other Canterbury members, and I think throe West Coast members. We first discussed the matter in onr private meetings of members, and afterwards had an interview with the Government. Out of that interview with the Government sprung, 1 believe, the survey, with the result of which yon are all acquainted. That rut-, ey, I believe, did not result very satisfactorily— at least so far as the opinions of those interested in the making of the line are concerned. It is, I think you will allow, perfectly evident now that the Govern, ment have not the money to undertake the work. It is also evident that no farther loan can be obtained from England at present, because, as you are aware, the loan agents gave a promise when the last loan was raised that the colony wonld not appear on the London money market as a borrower for three years. Therefore, we cannot raise any money in England until December, 1882. Thus we come back to see what facilities the Government can give a company. I may say at once that I see no reason why the Government should not give—under proper conditions, of course —concession of lands to a company or individuals who may embark in such a work. [Cheers.] While I say this, let me also say that 1 hold the opinion that the Government should not give all the land in any particular district, bnt should reserve some, so as to be able to get something out of it. Beyond this general opinion Ido not feel inclined to go, because wo have not yet heard the result of the survey of the engineers who have gone out, ns it wore, to test the work of Messrs Thornton and Browne generally. I may say I am favorable to giving concessions of land for making railway lines such as that proposed But, gentlemen, you must not lose sight of this fact, that yon cannot confine this principle to any particular locality. Ton must expect, if this general principle of concession is agreed upon, to have applications from elsewhere. Nor must we say any more about property holders haying large estates, because the company as proposed will hold a great estate, and bo enabled to do as they like with it.

An Elector —Will yon support the Bill if it comes before tbe House ?

Mr Stevens —It is customary, I believe, for a public man to see a Bill before saying whether he will support it or not. The Bill in question I have not seen, probably because it is not in existence. Therefore, I cannot say whether I shall support it or not. I have told yon that 1 generally support the principle of giving concessions of land for making such works. [Cheers.] ITherefore, I think I have satisfactorily answered tho question. I don’t know what more 1 can say. [Cheers. J Hero is a question which has been sent to me: “ Will you next session support a Bill for putting a bridge over tho railway across Madras street?” Now, with regard to this, let me jnst say at once that I am in favor of connecting tho south of Christchurch with Sydenham. [Hear.] But it appears to me that as to where the bridge should be is not a question for a member to answer. It is purely a local question, and should be settled by the two local bodies interested. [Cheers.] I am prepared, as I have said, to support the connection of Christchurch South and Sydenham, bnt whether the bridge should be in Madras or Manchester street is not for me to say. It is a question which does not come before the Parliament, bnt would be left to the Minister for Public Works to settle. But as I have said, it seems to me that the best course would be for tho Sydenham Borough Council and the City Council to mutually agree as to the site of the bridge [Cheers.] An Elector—Are yon cf opinion that a centralising system of Government is good for the general interests of the country? Mr Stevens —Let me at once say that our system of Government is not centralism In no country is local government more in force than it is here. You have your Municipalities, your Boad Boards, and small boroughs can ho constitnted where required, with but little trouble. Every day local government of some kind is being carried out here. 1 here are, it is true, some thinkers who are of opinion that some subjects which are now dealt with by the General Government might with advantage be, so to speak, decentralised and dealt with by other local bodies. Some, for instance, are of opinion that a largo department, involving heavy expenditure, like the police, might be more economically carried on if decentralised and placed under local control. Bnt it must be borne in mind that all the money went into one bag, and that some ono must pay again. There was the very large and important question whether the efficiency would not be impaired and the money frittered away by passing through a number of departments. I am not in favor of a wholly centralised Government, and do not believe that such a thing exists in New Zealand. Mr J. Lee here rose to ask a question, when cries of “ Sit down ” arose.

Mr Lee, indignantly—l will not B'tdown, sir. I am an elector and a ratepayer, and I have a right to ask my representative his opinions on certain subjects. Mr Stevens, will yon tell me your opinion of the Drainage Bill they are going to introduce next session ?

Mr Stevens —Will you mention any part of it, Mr Lee, or else I shall have to make a speech on the Drainage Bill. Mr Lee —Well, do yon think it right that a small holder should be compelled to put down a connection from his house to the main sower at a cost of some .£2O or £3O ? Mr Stevens —I should like to taka time to consider the Bill, and look into it before giving an opinion npon the subject. An Elector—Will you urge upon the Government to give the subsidies to the local bodies, so that they can provide work for the starving men who are unable to go out to seik work ? Mr Stevens—Let mo just point out to you this : that the Government have no power to pay these subsidies at all without the permission of Parliament. You would he asking me to urge the Government to do what is illegal ; ■what, in point of fact, is contrary to the law. [Hear, hear.J It wonld be simply absurd for me to place myself in the position of asking the Government to do what is contrary to law. The Elector—Why was it not illegal before ? Mr Stevens—lt was legal because the law provided that these subsidies should be paid to the local bodies, but that law is not now in existence.

The following written questions were banded up to Mr Stevens (1) Did yon or did you not vote for the 10 per cent, reduction, and on wbat principle ? (2) Why have the men on tbf> Canterbury railways been reduced Is p»r day instead of the 10 p r rent reduction? (3' Exulain as to the slicing scale ? Mr Stevens —bet me deal with the questions ns they have been written. First then the reductions wo.-e absolutely necessary in all departments of the service. Of coarse when you have a deficiency you must c:ver it some way or other. The deficiency, after the property tax is all collected, will yet show r. large sum, and therefore the necessity cri es for some new form of taxation, or a reduction in the expenditure of the colony. There is no duty which a public man has to perform so distasteful as to reduce the salaries cf those in the public service, hut the necessities of the colony were pressing, and are still so. No one feels the reduction of the salaries mere keenly than I do, and 1 would rather do any thing than this, but as a public man wl at wts I to do under the condition of affairs? It wonld not bo right for me to vote against my conscience when I knew that the condition of the colony called urgently for those reductions, simply that I might stand up here and tell yon that I

voted against the .0 per cent, redaction. I folly believe this, that persons in tbo public service will take the reduction of th'ir salaries as a sacrifice necessary for the welfare of the colony, and stick by the country. As rngards the sliding scale, I believe there was only one proposition of the kind brought forward, viz., by Mr Reader Wood I think. I may imy {hat I have worked it out, and find that it conld not bo made to produce the same results as the reduction carried out. Really I should like to know in what the sliding scale ot reductions consists ? An Elector—Begin at 25 per cent, with the large salaries, and come down to 5 per cent, for the working man. [Cheers.] Mr Stevens —1 don’t think that is right or fair at all. How would it work with men who have perhaps been thirty years in the service ? It would bo extremely hard on these men, after having worked themselves up in the service to have 25 per cent- taken off their salary. It wonld ruin many of them. Mr Oliver—The phrase “ working themselves up” is objectionable. It should be scratching backs, or having a friend in Parliament. [Cheers ] An Elector—There is the superannuation allowance, which might b-paid to those men, so that others might get a chance Mr Stevens—But why should the country pay superannuation allowances to men who have yoars of work yet in them, and thus have to pay other men to do their work ? An Elector—l should like to ask yon whether this 10 per cent, reduction is not aimed at wages all over the country ; in fact, is it not the old contest of capital and labor ? [Cheers.] Mr Stevens —No; I certainly do not believe that it is a contest between capital and labor at all. There was a certain expenditure in the departments cf the Government service going on which the Government found it was absolutely necessary to reduce. Had they not done so there would have been no other course but to have issued short dated debentures. [A Voice—- " Abolish some of the offices.”] The Government have done this already with many offices. Not only so, but there is a Commission now at work to'see what further savings and reductions of offices can be made. An Elector —Would yon bo in favor of having the railways carried on and managed by a Board of Governors in preference to the present system ? Mr Stevens—l do not think there is much to be said practically in favor of this. Theoretically there may be something in it, bnt I do not think it would work. You would first have {• consider bow the Board should bn appointed and to whom it would be responsible. Ministers, who now as the railways are State property manage them, are responsible to theParliament for their conduct. If you are going to have a Board of Commissioners like directors of a company you must decide as to their responsibility, because they might on the question of tariff rates, &c., give quite as much offence as a Minister, and then who wonld decide the point f It seems to me to he a very difficult question to deal with. The public would have to consider whether they would wish to hand over the management of their railways to an irresponsible Board, or, if not, to whom should it be made responsible. It would, to say the best of it, be quite an experiment, and there is no knowing how it would work or turn out.

A n Elector spoke of the hardship of his case in having been discharged from the railway after a service of two years and four months, with a good character. Mr Stevens—l think your case as yon told it to me some time back was a very bard one, bnt it was not the only hard case by a good many that I have had brought before mo from the railway. The Elector —Is there no remedy for this P Mr Stevens—Can yon suggest a remedy P The Elector —Yes ; a Board of Enquiry should be appointed before whom all these cases of alleged hardship could be brought with regard to railway employes. [Cheers,] Mr Stevens—That is J just what I have been trying to get for years. I have urged its adoption over and over again, and have appealed to the Government to carry oat the proposal. I still think tbis would be the only true remedy for any case of hardship like the one yon have referred to. So far back as 18771 was a me . ber of the Railway Management Committee, where I urged the advisableness of this proposition being carried out, bnt the committee did not agree with me. [Cheers.] Mr J. R. Oliver—l want to ask yon about the land. I think you said in yonr speech that you had advocated a withdrawal of the revenue arising from the sole of Crown lands from the ordinary general revenue.

Mr Stevens —Tea. Mr Oliver—Don’t yon think that the sale of Crown lands should be stopped, and the lands leased to the people ? Mr Stevens—The House thought it was a dangerous principle to allow tho lands to be tied up by leasing, as proposed in the Hospital Bill, and therefore they cut it out, substituting sale, the proceeds to be applied to the institutions. ... , Mr Oliver—Don’t you think the sale of Crown lands tends to the monopoly of the land of the people by capitalists ? Don’t you think the land should be for the people f Mr Stevens —Let me first observe that this would not be the land for tho people. It would be for revenue and endowment for nil time. The fact is, that when a man wants to get a freehold for himself ho forgets all about political economy. I think that everyone hero has on ambition to get a freehold, [Cheers.] The feeling of the country is against tying up land by giving leases instead of affording opportunities for the people to acquire freeholds. 1 Cheers. 1 Mr Oliver—ls this conducive to good government ? Mr Stevens —Ton must remember this, that if you convert your people into freeholders yon give them a strong hold and interest in the country and its welfare. If you stopped the sale of freeholds you would at once create on aristocratic class who would not sell their land. Now land passes from hand to hand as readily as any other commodity. I don’t think it right to do it here. Perhaps if you were to start in a new country it might do. Mr Oliver —Don’t you think it is disgraceful of the Government not to pay over the subsidies to the local bodies that have contracted debts on tho strength of receiving the subsidies. Mr Stevens—As I said in my speech, I always disapproved of those subsidies, more particularly when tho country is in debt. As regards the question, I may say that in my opinion the Government had no chance of paying these subsidies. They would have perhaps done so had they known how to. I may say that 1 have received several questions with regard to the Licensing Bill. I have very little to say beyond what I said on this subject at the general election. With regard to tho separation of family hotel licenses from general hotel licenses, that depends upon the carrying of clause 31, to which we have not yet reached. As regards the question whether I am in favor of increased power being given to suppress illegal sale of liquor on Sunday, I am of opinion that ample powers now exist. lam not in favor of the extension of tho principles of local option to the existing licenses, but to tho now ones which may hereafter be applied for. Mr Clephane desired to ask Mr Stevens’ opinion as regarded the present electoral law. Did he not consider it would be fairer to have it on the residential qualification—that was the man voting, and not tho land ? Mr Stevens said that he thought it bettor to retain the property qualification, as he believed the general opinion of tho country was in favor of it. He was on several rolls, but he found it rather a nuisance than otherwise, and ho was not prepared to admit that anyone could ever u«e a number of votes without considerable personal inconvenience. Ho was prepared to admit that there was argument in favor of the other view, but he did not think the time had come yet. He believed that the people valued their property qualification, and did not care lor the change. Mr Clephane desired to say that he thought property was very largely represented in both Houses. Mr Stevens thought that the X 25 qualification would not have the disastrous effect which was anticipated. If it were XSODO qualification it might bring in the property qualification to the detriment of the man. Ho could not see that property was too largely represented. As regarded the holding of all elections in one day, that would simply limit voting. He did not believe that if the residential qualifications were to be brought in next election that it would make throe members difference.

In reply to another question, Mr Stevens said ho had no reason to believe that the property tax was going to be brought down to X3UO so as to catch the working mar [An Elector—“ Are yon sure ?”1 Well, if the gentleman had a seat in the House he would know that no one could be sure o£ anything. An Elector—Will yon vote for it ? Mr Stevens —Theoretically there should bo no exemptions, bnt practically I don’t think wo should lower the exemption. Ido not think it right that all agricultural implements should he exempted from the property tax. 1 think that all machinery should stand on the same level, bnt I do not know bow much would bo realised from it.

An Elector—Will Mr Stevens say whether he is in favor of all machinery coming in to rob men cf their labor not paying aJ valorem duty. Mr Stevens—l am a free-trader. [t he questioner—“So am I.” | Of course you might have an import duty on machinery imported, bnt it wonld make it more costly for thu purchaser who got it from tbo importer. That 1 enpi-OPO will be admitted.

The Questioner—l think that if it was dene it would meet this unemployed difficulty, which year after year arises, i he poisons who have machinery for carrying out local industries have to pay tbo property tax on it. Will Mr Stevens sapport a proposal to tax ail imported machinery both under the property tax and the ad mlor-m duty ? Mr Stevens —I should not bo prepared to support such a proposition without looking into the

matter and seeing how it worked, especially •with regard to those farmers who are just starting. An Elector—Will Mr Stevens tell ns how the property tax reaches the wool and grain which loaves onr shores ?

Mr S'.evens —Tho farmers and wool growers pay on their property iu the wool and in the grain ; on the land which grows the grain and tho sheep which produces the wool. The Elector—Tos ; but he does not pay on grain or wool, lam in favor of a laud tax and income tax. Mr Stevens —Yes; I ace yon want tocatch tho wool and tho grain. Yen are arguing in favor of an income tax, but I do not agree with it. Ido not consider an income tax advisable hero. An Elector—Are yon in favor of an absentee tax ? Mr Stevens —They pay a tax because they pay tho property tax. The Elector —I would levy a tax on the people who live out of the country and on the country Mr .■•tevons —They pay on all their property. An Elector—l should like to ask you whether joa consider it right to keep the Maori prisoners in prison for so long without trial. Mr Stevens —I think that sentiment must disappear iu face of a great public emergency. I think tho safety of life and property in the North Island was dependent on the passage of tbo Bill, and I quote a higher authority than myself—tho late Native Minister. He said that the peace and safety of the North Island was dependent on this Bill being Sasaed. Mr Eolleston I can assure you oes nos fear to meet Parliament, and I suppose the release of the men from Lyttelton shows that these are not considered to have any element of disturbance amongst them. As regards Mr Bryce’s retirement, I may say that X hailed his presence in the Ministry with a groat deal of satisfaction. But I cannot go with Mr Bryce in tho course ha proposed. Parliament had risen with the idea that the rGConlmendations of tho West Coast Commission would he carried out, aud I think it would have been mo-t unfortunate if Mr Bryce’s views had been carried ont_. I think his ideas wore dictated with a sincere wish to do the beat he oonld, but I think ho was mistaken. As regards tho Maori dual vote, 1 will never be a party to giving the Maori a greater power in tho matter of voting than tho white man. I consider that the pro£erty qualification, as a general rule, had better s retained. Mr B, Cass asked Mr Stevens whether he was aware that the principle of direct alienation by the Natives had conduced to the acquisition of large blocks of land in tho North Island by large capitalists. Did he not think that his views on this question were open to serious reconsideration ? Mr Stevens said that ho did not advocate immediate alienation of tho land. _ What be proposed was that there should be individualisation of title at tho Native request, and that there should be no Government interference. In fact, that tho Native should, after his title had been individualised, bo left to do as he liked So important did ho consider this question that, oven if there was one or two cases in which tho lands fell into largo hands, the result, as a whole, would bo good. What he wanted to see was that tho North Island should be settled, and this ho thought would bo done by allowing the land to ho sold without Government interference. In reply to other questions, Mr Stevens said, as regarded the Fire Brigade Bill he understood that objection was taken to the power of levying a rate. He thought it was important that the firo brigade should bo kept on, and thera appeared to be some difficulty in doing this unless some means woro adopted to raise tho_ necessary funds. Let them observe this, that it was not the introduction of new taxation, but it simply gave a permissive power to the local Councils, who were representatives of the people, and could be got rid of at any timo if they so desired. As regarded the subject of education he had given as emphatic a declaration os could be given of his opinion. [Cheers.! The following resolution wan proposed—“ That the thanks of this meeting be accorded to Mr Stevens for his lucid statement this evening.” Mr J. Leo seconded the motion.

Mr Noall moved— ’* That this meeting desires to express its confidence in Mr Stevens as member for Christchurch in the General Assembly.” This was seconded and carried by a large majority, only two hands being held up against

it. Mr Stevens thanked the electors for their renewed confidence, and proposed a vote of thanks to the Mayor, which closed tho proceedings at 10.30 p.m,