GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 2008, 31 July 1880, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PER press association special wieb.J LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, July 30. In the Legislative Council, The Oaraaru Harbor Board Bill, Nelson Gas and Waterworks Sale Act Amendment Bill, Wanganui Harbor and River Conservators Board Grant Bill, Fire Brigades Bill, Hospital and Charitable Aid Endowment Bill, Otago Rivers Bill, Otago Harbor Board Empowering Bill (all from tho Lower House) were read a first time. The Hon. W. H. Reynolds gave notice for tho appointment of Committee to enquire into the cost, with a view to its reduction, of the officers of tho House. Tho Hon. Dr. Grace asked if the Government intended to dismiss three Wellington constables of very long service without giving them compensation. The Hon. F. Whitaker protested against the question. It would, he said, be impossible for the Government to carry out a policy of retrenchment and economy, which was imperative and on which Parliament insisted, if at every step they took they were to be met and embarrassed with questions. He presumed that if the officers were entitled to compensation they would get it. If they were not entitled they could not get it unless Parliament specially voted it. The Hawke’s Bay and Marlborough Rivers Act Amendment Bill (Hon. Captain Baillie) was read a first time. The Treasury Bills Bill was read a third time and passed. The debate on the cost of Education was continued.

The Hon. W. Chamberlain said that the educational burden was out of all proportion to the strength of the country. He thought they were getting a huge army of teachers, who would, in conjunction with the army of civil servants, be ultimately stronger than their masters. He advocated the re-imposi-tion of fees, and the keeping of children away from school until seven years old. The Hon. Mr Lahman thought the educational expense most extravagant, though he did not wish the system to bo impaired. He saw no necessity for the Central Board. The Hon. Dr. Menzieb also supported the imposition of fees. The Hon. J. Williamson '"said that it was high time they cut their coat according to their cloth, and began an economy and reform that bad long been wanted. The Hon. G. M. Waterhouse said that they spent 25 per cent, of the revenue on education, while in England it was not 4 per cent. He hoped that the long discussion which his motion had evoked would cause the Government to consider the question with a view to economy and reform. During the recess, or next session, a parliamentary inquiry into the subject would be imperative. This ended the discussion, and the Council rose at 3 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, July 30. The greater portion of the morning’s sitting was given in our issue of yesterday. The remaining business was as follows : The following Bills were read a second time Banks and Bankers’ Bills of Exchange Procedure, Mercantile Law Chattels Securities, Building Societies, Animals Protection, Married Woman’s Property, Protection of Aliens, Marriage, Juries, Cruelty to Animals, Deaths by Accident, Compensation, Adulteration Prevention, Thames Water Supply Transfer, Fisheries Bill. The above Bills, with the exception of the two last mentioned, were considered in Committee, read a third time and passed, as was also the Census Bill. The House then adjourned. AFTERNOON SITTING. The House re-aseembled at 3 p.m. petition. Mr Stewart presented a petition signed by 350 employes connected with the Locomotive and other Railway Departments, praying for a reconsideration of the determination to reduce their wages. notice op motion. Sir G. Grey gave notice that he would direct the attention of the Government to the inequalities existing as between the North and South of NewiZealaud in the matter of University education. MAORI PRISONERS DETENTION BILL. The Hon. J. Bryce introduced the Maori Prisoners Detention Bill. He asked them to pass it through all its stages without discussion. The prisoners were part of an organisation setting itself up against the authority of the Queen. That was why the arrests were deemed necessary. He hoped that the House would see its way to pass the measure without discussion. He moved its second reading. Sir G. Grey asked if intimation had been given to the Natives of the penalties they were subjected to under this Bill. It not, he asked if such intimation would be given. The Hon. J. Bryce said that no notice had been given to the Natives, unless the arrests made could be taken as such notice. He would, however, take care that an intimation of the provisions of the Act was given. The motion for the second reading was carried, and the House, went into Committee on the Bill. Mr J. B. Fisher and the Hon. W. Gisborne pointed out that the Bill, as worded, Would bring under its operation Natives charged with all manner of crimes—murder, felonies, &o. —offenders never contemplated by the framers of the Act. The Hon. J. Bryob admitted the objection, but did not see how it was to be obviated. Sir G. Gbby suggested that the provision should be “all arrests'made by the police, subject to the approval of the Native Minister.” The clause was amended so as to make it read “ arrests made by authority of the Government.” Sir G. GebT protested against the amendment as made. He considered it unconstitutional and unlawful, and was sorry to see it persisted in, when a few minutes’ reflection would be sufficient to convince the Government of the fact. He did not desire to embarrass the Government, but ho wished to record his solemn protest. The Bill with amendments was reported.

On the motion for the third reading, Mr Montgomery regretted that a Bill had not been passed months ago proclaiming this a disturbed district. The measure was one the necessity for which should not have arisen. Sir G. Grey also protested against the measure, which with a few* minutes delay could have been made more perfect than it was. He was sure that it would create a bad effect on the Native mind. Mr J. B. Fibhkb also protested against the Bill. It did not matter what the nature of the offence was, every Maori offender could claim to bo arrested under this Act, and its effect would bo to defeat the ends of justice. Mr Reader Wood said that it was a false position that the House took up to say that they had passed a measure not on their own responsibility, but on the responsibility of the Government. The position was one which was not tenable. He had no desire to throw obstacles in the way of the Government, but he

considered this the moat impracticable measure that could well be imagined. He alluded to the fact that an inquest bad been held the other day in Dunedin upon one of these prisoners who died of consumption. Surely men so situated, sick unto death, ought in the interests of humanity to have been sent home

to their own districts. Referring to the debate which took place on the subject a few days ago, he said that debate was far more creditably conducted by the Maori members than by the Europeans. Major Tk Whkoro said that he had no wish to embarrass the Government, but he disclaimed all responsibility for the measure. In further support of that position, he would, call for a division on the motion for the third reading. The Hon. J. Bryce said the Governmec had shown every proof that they wore prepared to accept the very fullest They had arrested these men without a warrant, and that showed that they were rot at all disposed in any way to shirk respoisibility. Those men were actively in oppositon to the Queen’s authority, and had ben arrested as it was not known what form bat opposition might assume. Referring to the remarks of Mr Reader Wood, he said -hat that member was a free lance, and glorid in vagaries of irresponsibility. He vontired, however, to say this—that if the fate o the Bill depended upon his individual vote he dare not take upon himself the responsbility of voting against its passage. The House then divided. Ayes, 41 ; noos, 24. On the motion that the Bill do now oass, Mr Speight protested against the oassing ef the Bill. It was an admission thit they were unable to govern the Natives by the same law which governed the rest of tie community. It was an Act which would yet be looked upon os a piece of barbarism. Mr Pyke denounced it ns a cruel ind unconstitutional measure. He dematded of the House, of the country, and of the imperial Council that such laws should not )o passed as applicable to the Maoris. It was a disgrace to their civilisation. Mr Moobhousb considered bat the Government were acting right in proposing the Bill. He was prepared to accept his full share of responsibility for the measure. Ho followed his leader in the House, but took care beforehand to satisfy himself that his leader was a man capable of leading. Ho had 1 been told, and quite believed it, that the : measure was necessary ; hence his ditermina- 1 tion to vote for it

Mr Tawhai gave his reasons ftr voting against the Bill. The measure aad been hastily drawn up, and not transited into the Maori language. That was sufficient justification to him for recording bis vots against it, Mr Moss said that the construction he put upon this Bill was that they would not be able to amalgamate with the Maoris. It was an exhibition of weak and vacillating policy. Mr Pitt kaid that this was not tho time to discuss such nice distinctions as to whether this is legal or that was constitutional. Tho public interest demanded the passage of the Bill, and in bringing it forward he believed that the Government was actuated by feelings of humanity for the Natives thimaolves. Mr Sebbon complained against tho Government, first of making assertions and then asking the House to vindicate its coiduct. Sir G. Grey said that the House misunderstood the nature of tho Bill. Ont member had said that the next thing they would hear of was that women and children of the Native race would be arrested. The fact was that this Bill conferred such powsr on the Government. A greater outrage on constitutional Government had never bsen perpetrated. He asked the Government even yet to consider what it was asking, ior it was awful to think that women and children should be torn from their homes »nd thrust into prison as this Bill authorised. He asked them to spare him, and others wto thought with him, the shame and disgrace of such a measure.

The Hon. J. Beyob said that a responsibility rested on the Government, but a greater responsibility rested on the Opposition for what they had done. The member for the Thames had painted all the horrors of imprisonment, yet matters in that respect would not be in the slightest degree changed if his proposals were carried. It was only mere talk and nothing more. Such talk wag only calculated to inflame the Native mind, and confirm them in their evil courses. He was both disappointed and ashamed at the action of the Opposition, and if evil resulted heavy responsibilities would rest npon them. The Spbakeb said that he regretted that the Bill had not been translated into the Maori language. It was an infraction of the rules of the House, which he would look into. The motion that the Bill do now pass was carried. The House adjourned at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. PETITION. On the motion of Mr Swanson, the petition of Michael Doyle was referred back to the Waste Lauds Committee. IMPREST SUPPLY. An Imprest Supply Bill for £250,000 was introduced and passed through all its stages. THE PATETBBB BLOCK. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Sir G. Qbby moved the appointment of the following as a committee to inquire into the Patetere block transaction Messrs Bryce, Jones, Kenny, Shephard, Thompson, Wood, and the mover. The Hon. J. Bbycb demurred to the proposal, and suggested that the first committee should be named with Messrs Pitt and Sutton in place of the two gentlemen who declined to act—Sir W. Fox and Mr Stevens. He questioned the sincerity of the member for the Thames to have this matter gone into fairly, judging from the names proposed. Mr Macandeew said it was a most invidious thing to single out the names of individual members in that way, and he contended that the names proposed were just as impartial as those proposed by the Minister. Sir G, Qbby said that he never thought of making this a party committee as shown by the names originally proposed. He was ready to accept the name of Mr Pitt, but he could not accept Mr Fulton, as he had seen a disposition on his part to incline to party connection with committee work. After the point had been further discussed, Sir G. Gbby intimated that he would accept the names suggested by the Native Minister.

Mr Wood said that the Government was making a great mistake to make every question of this kind a party question, and although they carried their measures by two to one they showed a great deal of anger against that one. He was glad that he had nothing to do with the committee, but he objected to have his views and motives thus unfairly canvassed. The real fact was that there was no party at all in the House. Party meant combination for the purpose of asserting some great principle. He saw it stated the other day in a Dunedin paper that the basis of the great Liberal party was the payment of members. This was an instance of what their party questions consisted of, and that was no party question at all. The motion as amended by the suggestion of the Hon. J. Bryce was put and carried. LOCAL GOVERNMENT. On the motion to go into Committee of Supply, Mr Moss said that their revenue should enable them to meet all their liabilities ■without making all the panic that had been made about monetary affairs. Then they proposed the property tax, which in its present form ho apprehended would be most obnoxious. If they arranged it so that it would be locally applied, it would be popular. To do that, it would bo necessary to enlarge the committee. With only a month or so at their disposal, it would be impossible to face the work of extending local self-government. That was what they had to face, but he was afraid that all the Government desired was to relieve themselves as much as possible of work, and get the members away home. He looked upon this question of local government as a most important question, and one which they ought to face at once. He believed that this was one of the principal questions which was _ at the very root of all their difficulties. The resolution he wished to propose was “ Thataßoyal Commission should be appointed to consider the most suitable form of local Government for this colony, such Commission to consist of nine members, to bo elected by the registered electors of the several provincial districts.” He felt strongly the importance of this question." If they could separate local from general finance, a very great work would be achieved. They would get rid of much of the log rolling and other difficulties they had at present to contend with. He would say let those local

e bodes be so constituted that . they a wold not be responsible to the House, but e to he people amongst whom they resided. It 0 wa one of the most important question to Y wlioh their attention could possibly be o dieoted. He hoped that the House would 0 viw it as such. . The Hon. J. Hall said that Government j aould have had intimation that a question of 9 » much importance was to be introduced, so B hat they could have come down prepared to ay what they thought of the proposal. ) Speaking on the spur of the moment, ho ; would say that if such an inquiry was to be 'made the House of Representatives was the [ beat body that could be got to make it, therefore the proposal of a Royal Commission was not one that recommended itself at first sight. Ho did not follow Mr Moss with his statement of finance, and ho did not at first sight think that the proposal was one that would recommend itself to the House. They had been taunted with Government by Commission, and this was a proposal to perpetuate that system. Mr Macanbbew said he was favorably impressed with the general ilea, but was not prepared to discuss the question at present. Ho would suggest its postponement. It was plain that the House was breaking down with its own weight. They had been eight or ten weeks in session working night and day, yet they did not seem to get through the work. He did not like Royal Commissions, si ill the general proposal was one which might well bo considered. The motion was withdrawn, on the understanding that it would be brought on again. COMMITTEE OR SUPPLY. The House then went into Committee of Supply. Government Insurance department, £26,925. The Hon. Major Atkinson proposed to strike out £SOOO for separate Government Insurance offices. Sir G. Geby said that they had placed themselves in this position in relation to this department:—They were to carry on the affairs of a concern the advantage from which secured no corresponding advantage to the State. Then again it secured a very considerable amount of patronage to the Government, and that was a dangerous thing. By this means private enterprise was deadened. Vast sumo of money would eventually come into the hands of the Government to be lent out, and in that way they would raise vast interests which Ministers could not properly control. Then again the risk of loss was continually increasing, for what ? They were to get no advantage to themselves. If the scheme produced anything for the colony by way of reducing taxation, he could understand it. Who was to recoup them for the expense of the very discussion going on. They were there doing the duties of a Board of directors, not at the expense of a company, but at the expense of the taxpayers. Matters of this kind should be left to private enterprise, and the Government should merely overlook the safeguards provided for such companies in their dealings with the public. The Hou. W. Gisboenb bore testimony to the efficient manner in which the department had been worked, and showed that it had been self-supporting. It had not only had a moral effect on the community, but had been beneficial in providing for those who might otherwise have been chargeable on their charitable aids. Private companies of this kind had occasioned serious loss from becoming insolvent, but iu the case of this department it was not possible to get into that state. It was the last department that should be interfered with, inasmuch as it tended to diminish pauperism and encourage provident habits. Mr Hurst maintained that this was not legitimate work for the Government. It was an institution that owed its origin to a time when they were literally intoxicated with the expenditure of borrowed money. He thought that the time had arrived when the affair should be narrowed down, or rather relegated to the management of some private company. Mr J. B. Fisher agreed that the department was not, directly speaking, a proper one for a Government to undertake. He showed that the Government interfered far too much with the social relations of life. Six months after a child was born, the State vaccinated him. A few years later it educated him, and then when ho went into business and failed they relieved him of his liabilities and started him afresh with a Government certificate, and finally, when he died, they provided a public trustee to administer his estates. It only remained for them to establish a butcher’s and baker’s shop and a clothing establishment, and then they would have crushed out every possible avenue for private enterprise. Mr Ballance spoke of the department as having been an unqualified success, and urged its being made more popular amongst the working classes. A large amount of money that they kept within themselves would go out ot the colony altogether if the department were abolished. As regards the objection made to it in respect of the patronage it created, he thought that the House was perfectly able to look after that to see that it was not wrongly exercised. The Hon. Major Atkinson said that the discussion was no doubt interesting, but no practical result could possibly come out of it. He confined his remarks to replying to the proposals made for the reduction of certain items in the vote.

Mr Andrews thought that the Government had done well in establishing the department, but he doubted whether its management was altogether satisfactory. Colonel Trimble and Mr Maoandbew supported the vote. They said that so far from abolishing the department they would extend its functions by compelling men to assure their lives, much on the same principle as they compelled men to educate their children. Mr Turnbull moved that £IOO be deducted from the salary of the Commissioner. Ha said the question was not what other Insurance Societies paid, but what was the work done worth. He contended that £7OO was quite sufficient for the office. Mr Murray said that political institutions were inadequate to the conduct of private business, and the debate showed more and more that such was the case. He quoted statistics to show that the department had been worked at a greater cost than similar private concerns. It was unfair that the colony should be taxed for the support of a department from which it could derive no corresponding advantage. Postmasters were employed doing the work of the department without the department contributing towards their salaries. He would support any proposal to reduce the operations of the department. Mr Baebon was disposed to retrenchment, but as regards this department he thought it would be unwise to reduce it.

Mr Jones moved that the item local agent, Wellington (also Registrar of Births, &0., £140), £l6O, bo struck out. The reduction of £SOOO, proposed by the Hon. Major Atkinson, was agreed to. A reduction of £IOO in the item Oornmis sioner, £BOO, proposed by Mr Turnbull, was negatived on a division by 27 to 14, The total vote was then agreed to, and the House rose at 12.45.