GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 2004, 27 July 1880, Page 4

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PER PRESS ASSOCIATION SPECIAL WIRE.]

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Monday, July 26, The House met at 2.30 p.m. NOTICES OB MOTION. Mr Babeon gave notice that ho would ask •whether the Government intended to reserve Crown lands in accordance with sections 350 and 351 of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1876, for the more adequate endowment of those boroughs which have been unfairly treated in that respect. Mr Thomson gave notice that he would ask a question as to when it was proposed to bring the session to a close, and what Bills it was proposed to pass before the prorogation. Mr Seddon gave notice of motion affirming the desirability of a Commiasion_ being appointed to inquire into the administration of the goldfields and the laws relating thereto. MISCELLANEOUS. Mr Shbimski presented two petitions from Otago against tho abolition of the bottle license. Mr Ebetes presented a petition from brewers against the imposition of the beer tax. ... Mr Ballanob presented a similar petition from brewers in Wanganui. The Hon. J. Hall asked leave to move "without notice that the second reading of certain Bills on the Order Paper should obtain precedence. In answer to questions put, The Hon. W. Eolleston said all that was aimed at was to get certain Acts distributed over different periods placed on the Statute book in a consolidated form. Mr Oeobgb said that the present would be a suitable opportunity for the Government to state what Bills it really did intend to got passed this session, and what they proposed to drop. The motion was put and carried. THE SESSION. The Hon. J. Hall moved that for the remainder of the session Government business take precedence on Wednesdays. He said they expected to get through tho estimates by Wednesday, and the public works statement would be brought down early next week. Government hoped that they would be able to get through the business by the end cf August. What the several Bills to be proceeded with or dropped were he was not then prepared to say, but would do so on an early date. The consolidating measures already referred to would provoke little or no discussion, and to get them disposed of without making an inroad upon their time he would probably ask that they be taken at a morning sitting of the House. Mr Muebay hoped they would not be asked to go on with the public works estimates until after the public works statement was brought down. That course would be necessary in order to enable them to arrive at a correct conclusion in regard to the working of the railways. Mr Macandbbw moved as an amendment —“That after the Orders of Day on Wednesday next Government business take precedence on Wednesday for the remainder cf the session,” The Hon. J. Hall refused to accept the amendment, and pointed out that a certain motion would involve a large amount of discussion, thereby wasting a large amount of valuable time needlessly. They had now arrived at a period of the session when they must draw a line between important and unimportant business. He referred more particularly to tho motion that the names of Sir Geo. Grey and Mr Hamlin be omitted from the Native Affairs Committee. The debates on these motions would open up discussions on the whole subject of the constitution of the committee. Mr Speight said it was important that these motions should bo discussed, and he dissented from the opinion that a waste of time would be involved. Mr J. B. Fishee supported the same opinion, and moved that the business be adjourned to enable these motions to come on at onoe. The Speakbb ruled the motion irregular. Dr. Wallis charged the Government with having wasted the time of the House, and now that the session was coming to a close they wished to rush the business on with undue haste. If it was necessary Government should have more time. Ho suggested that they ehould sit on Saturdays. Sir Geo. Geey denied that the motion in question would entail loss of time in debate. He thought that the House should give him an opportunity for relieving himself from a sessional duty he felt that he could not discharge with justice to himself. The House divided on the amendment. Ayes, 28 ; noos, 37. The original motion was then put and carried. TBBABUBY BILL. The House went into Committee on the Treasury Bills Bill, and on resuming it was reported without amendment, read a third time, and passed. MISCELLANEOUS. On the motion for going into Committee cf Supply, Mr McDonald moved that a auty of Is per bushel of 601 be be impoeed upon all maize imported into the colony. The Hon. Major Atkinson said that he could not consent to the proposal, but ho would have no objection to the matter being referred to the Agricultural Committee, Tho motion was withdrawn. Sir G. Geby referred to the Patoiere block transaction. He stated that it was proposed to dispose of that land unlawfully. Ho quoted at length from tho corresponderce on tho subject laid on the table, and said that the land was Crown land, and the Native Minister was entering into private negotiations for the sale of the land. He was doing an act that was clearly illegal, and he called upon the Government to aid in an enquiry that clearly ought to he made, and if it was shown to be a transaction wrong in itself and hurtful to the public, they should refrain from completing it. Government could not be aware of the sense of wrong that existed in the minds of many people in Auckland in relation to this matter. On the motion for going into Committee to-morrow, he would move that a select committee be appointed to enquire into the matter. The Hon. J. Bbyoe said that he would aid the hon. member in his endeavor to secure a committee of enquiry in every way that lay in his power. There were two Pateteres—proclaimed Patotere and unproclaimod Patetere.

Proclaimed Patetere had been applied for by private individuals during the hon. member’s term of office. It was unreasonable to say that this was Crown land. Advances had been made upon it, but the purchase was not completed. Was it reasonable to say that a block comprising hundreds of acres of land, upon which au advance of say £2O had been made, was Crown land. He denied that he had entered into any private correspondence on the subject. All the correspondence he had was conducted perfectly openly. Mr Sheehan said that if the correspondence was gone into fairly it would be shown that Government had not acted unwisely in this matter. The fact was they could not secure the land themselves, and it would have been madness for the Government to keep the land locked up for au indefinite period. He would be able to show that private purchases had been going on all over the country. It was distinctly stipulated by the Native Minister that the proclamation should remain upon these lands until the Government advances had been repaid by the Natives themselves. He was sure from what his colleague (the member for Thames) had said, that he was not in possession of all the facts of the case. All the correspondence on the subject had been fairly and openly conducted. Ho would be able to prove that he had done good work in acquiring these lands. He did not believe the association by which the land had been acquired would make 5 per cent, on the purchase, and the Maori sellers would have the best of the transaction. The facts of the case wore that the people of Auckland had been endeavouring to acquire these lands since 1872, and it was a gross injustice to the people of the Thames to think of acquiring land that wos locked up. The motion for going into Committee of Supply was then put and carried. Legislative department—Vote general expenses. Item —Librarian, £3OO. Mr Gibbs moved that it bo reduced £3O. The vote was passed as printed. The House adjourned at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Item—“ Hansard ” Reporters, £2500. Mr Andrews moved that it beetruok out altogether. Messrs Pyke and Sheehan spoke against the motion, contending that amongst farmers and miners it had a large and appreciative circulation. Sir W. Fox spoke in favor of “ Hansard ” being condensed, and referred to the English “ Hansard ” to show that members are not allowed the space given to members of that House. The Hon. Major Atkinson suggested that the vote should be passed, and that the question of the reduction of the expenses should rc-mainover until the report of the Debates Committee had been received. Mr Bowen eaid that, apart from the copies of “ Hansard ” given away the circulation was very small, and that afforded a very fair criterion of the value of “ Hansard.” It was a well known fact that many men in the House simply talked to their constituents, but that was not talking to the country. It was a well known fact that what the country demanded was the speeches of leading men. That was evinced by the fact that the newspapers only gave space to those men. If the English papers reported members at length it would be impossible to carry on the business. The item was passed. Item —Committee reporting, £650. Mr Bain proposed that it be reduced £l7O. The item was passed as printed. The vote as reduced was passed. Class 3, Treasury Department, £8402. The vote was passed as printed. Property tax, £28,418 6a Bd. The Treasurer said that he 'proposed to reduce this vote by £2OOO. Mr Seddon proposed a farther reduction of £7OO. The vote as reduced by the Treasurer was carried. Miscellaneous Services, £12,650. The item Audit of County and Eoad Board accounts, £2700, was struck out. On the item Expenses of investment of sinking fund consolidated loan, £6OO, a division was called for, and ultimately it was carried on the voices. The vote as reduced was passed. Class 6, Commissioner of Customs, £42,622. The vote was reduced by £2OOO. Miscellaneous Service, £2OOO, was passed as printed. Marine and Harbor, £46,221 7s lOd. The Treasurer proposed to strike out the item Expenses of weather report and storm signals, £IO7O. He proposed to amalgamate the duties with those of the geological and meteorological department. The vote was further roducad by £SOO, and agreed to. Class 7, Stamp Department, £6160. The vote was passed as printed. Lands and Registry, £17,600, and miscellaneous, £25, were passed without alteration. Minister for Education, £297,730. The Hon. W. Eolleston compared the cost of education here with that of other countries. The cost in this country compared favorably with the relative cost in England, and also it was very considerably less than it was in some of the other Australasian colonies. He also compared the standards, to show that in this colony they were not more ambitious than in other colonies. He contended that Now Zealand was not disposed to drop behind other places in the matter of education. People in this country were not going to be satisfied with a miserable provision in that respect. What they demanded was a progressive system. It was said that the £400,000 spent last year was out of proportion to our resouioes. He would ask were they to rank behind other colonies. He recognised that the educational system must to some extent suffer in general depression, still the public mind would not tolerate a serious break down in that respect. The system had taken a firm hold on the minds of the people. He gave his opinion from observations in going about the country. He recognised that economy was necessary. During the last three years there had been an increase of 8000 of annual attendances. He would ask the committee to agree to a reduction of £32,000, and would assure them that these reductions would_ be made in a direction which would not impair- the general efficiency. A large saving would be made on the allowances to local committee!'. It was also proposed to omit public libraries, which he believed would be provided for by individual exertions. A new feature in the estimates was the provision made for the deaf and dumb. That provision was made simply as a temporary expedient. When the inmates increased some permanent provision would have to be made. Mr McOaughan maintained that the country could not afford a continuance of the present extravagant system of education. It would be wise to retrench considerably on this vote. Self-existence was the first duty of the people, and after that to provide for the cultivation of their minds. The country was in a deplorable state. Everything was going backwards throughout. The compulsory clauses should be removed, and if the people thought it good to send their children to school and pay fees let them do so, if not let them stay at home. He proposed to reduce the vote £50,000. Mr Johnston did not think that results were commensurate with the cost. He would ns far as he could reduce every item which would possibly stand a reduction. The Hon. W. Gisborne said that the system they were aiming at was far too_ high, and if they went on as they were going the system would break down. The State had no right to absorb the whole system of education. It J had a right to say that every child, where parents were not able to pay for its education, should receive elementary training, but if they attempted more they would have to take the whole system into their hands. There wore people in every district who were well able to pay for their education, and yet they were taking advantage of this free system. The fact was they were educating people to depend upon the State for their education, andjif that were carried to its extreme results, then, as a matter of fact, it was bound to break down. The reduction proposed by the Minister of Education would have the effect simply of suspending the functions of local Boards, and by that means the whole system would become centralised. . The Hon. W. Eolleston made an explanation to show that that was not the tendency of the reduction. It would point in the direction of reducing the expenses, but it would_ in no way go towards crippling, or yet tending to supersede, the operations of tho local Board. Mr Pyke characterised tho present system ■of education as a pauper one. It only benefited the wealthy and the residents in large towns. He contended that tho community were anxious to pay fees, and that a quarter

of a million a year was being waited in giving people what they did not want. The whole vote should be struck out. Mr Montgomery understood that the £32,000 was to bo saved by the various Education Boards exercising greater economy, and the lessening of high salaries, and not that the School Committees wore to be all crippled. [Mr Bolleston —" Hear, bear.”] He thought that the education vote was about the list one which should bo struck out. The present system was most valuable. Ho hoped they would not make any distinction between rich and poor. They had boon told that Otago paid for the children of the poor. He deprecated that as tending to class distinction, and would wish to see the necessity for it obviated. He regretted very much that the Minister had spoken of reducing the vote, and trusted that the House would recognise the fact that teachers should be men of superior attainments, and such being the case, it was necessary they should bo well paid. Ho believed, however, that reductions could bo made in the higher paid class of teachers. There were now 75,556 children being eduo*tud. The expenses might bo saved in School Boards.

Mr Bowen said there was no desire to crush out private schools, and as a matter of fact that had not been the case. In 1877 the charge per head was £4 8s Id ; now it was not more than £4 11s 6d. It was satisfactory to find that despite the fact that they had the disadvantage of contending with what was the establishment, of a new system, the cost had not risen too much. Then, again, it had been shown that the rate would bo brought down to £4 or £4 Is. Ho could say that through the country the system worked well. Mr Turnbull thought that reductions could bo effected without impairing the efficiency of the system. He complained that the system was not compulsory, asserting that until it was made compulsory its tendencies wore to create class distinction, and not, as had been asserted, a fusion of the masses. Then, again, the system was an unequal class one. One class was able to keep children at sohool till a child was fifteen or sixteen years of age, whereas another class could not afford to do that. He would like to see how that irregularity was to be remedied. Then, again, he looked upon the system as being extremely toppressive as regards the Roman Catholic denomination.

Mr Saundees said that the idea wag to make the schools acceptable to all classes of the community. He trusted that a narrow sectarian view would never be tolerated. Once leave the teaching to the priests of any denomination, and they would do away with everything like nationalism, and return to a deplorable state of persecution. He had done as much as ho could to make the system acceptable, and hoped never to see it in the hands of paid teachers of religion. If it was necessary he would say put a duty on tea and sugar, but do not let the system of education suffer. It was of far more importance than a central system of railways. If they were not going to educate their children, then he would say that it was far better to suspend the political system of free institutions. He agreed with the reduction proposed by the Minister for Education. The great object with them should be, that if they sink one class they should sink all as a matter of policy. It was of the uttermost importance in providing for education that they should confine their endeavors to preliminary education. They did more harm than good in attempting to interfere with the higher branches of education. The expenditure on the Deaf and Dumb Institution was commendable in itself. He did not believe in children being sect to school at too early an age. A child at eight years, in robust health, would do more than a younger child cramped up from the age of infancy. He hoped they would feel it their duty to keep up a system of national education, and do nothing to educate the children of the rich at the expense of the poor. At 1 a.m. progress was reported, and the House rose.