GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 1978, 26 June 1880, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PES PBESS ASSOCIATION BPBOIAIi WISE ] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Pbidat, June 25. In the Legislative Council, The Hon. Colonel Bbbtt gave notice to move for a Seleot Committee to inquire into the volunteer outrages at the late Southern Be view. The Hon. Captain Peases gave notice to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the working of the Otago Industrial School, and to ask the coßt, and what the Government are going to do with Government House and grounds at Hokitika. Papers and the report of the enquiry re volunteer outrages were laid on the table, and on a division they were ordered to be left to by 15 votes to 11. The report stated that the misconduct had been greatly_ exaggerated, but that several men had resigned, and four others had been dismissed.

In reply to the Hon. Colonol Whitmore The Hon. E. Whitakbb said the Government were considering the whole subject of the Agent-Goneralship, and before they oame to any decision as to the terms on whioh future appointments will be made Parliament will be consulted. Boplying to the Hon. G. M. Waterhouse, The Attobnbt-Gbnebal said that the agents were not authorised to convert any stock outside the last loan. Before any further conversion is authorised, the whole matter will be discussed and settled by Parliament.

Sir E. D. Bell asked if Sir J. Vogel was to receive any commission on the conversion of the five million loan.

The Hon. E. Whitakbb said no ono had got any commission for the conversion, and before any commission was paid it would have to be debated and authorised by Parliament. Sir E. D. Bblii then gave notice to ask on Tuesday if it is the intention of the Government that for any future inscription of stook Sir J. Togel shall receive anything. A return was ordered on the motion of the Hon. Mr Taiaroa of all the Native assossors dismissed or reduced, and also a return on the motion of the Hon. Mr Peters re the direction of the Ashburton and Mount Somers Bail way. The remainder of the sitting was occupied in Committee on the Babbit Nuisance Bill and the Fencing Bill, on both of which progress was reported. The Council adjourned at 5 p.m. HOUSE OF BEPBESENTATIVES. Fbidat, June 25. The House met at 2.30 p.m. PETITION. Mr Eklly presented a petition from Taranaki re the modification of the property tax. bbpeesbntation bill. The Hon. J. Hall gave notice that he would move next sitting day for leave to bring down the Representation Bill. OITIL sbrvicb bbpobt. The Hon. J. Hall laid on the table the original copy of the evidenoe taken by the Civil Service Commission. He explained that the Government had not yet had time to get the evidence copied, and he hoped that great oare would be used in its perusal. Mr Maoansbbw suggested and Mr J. C. Bbown moved that the evidence be copied. The Hod. J. Hall pointed out that the evidenoe was very voluminous, and he hoped the House would not insist upon getting it printed. Messrs Geobge and Mubbat spoke against the printing, saying that they believed the cost would not be less than £4OO or £SOO. The motion was withdrawn. QUESTIONS.

Mr Seddon asked whether in their proposed scheme of local finance, and when the Bills on that subject are introduced to the House, due provision will be made to empower the Local Board of Public Works to maintain or provide moneys for the County Councils interested to maintain the following arterial roads in the Middle Island, such roads having been constructed in lieu of railways, and being of benefit to the colony at large, (1) road from Reefton to Greymouth ; (2) road from Greymouth to Okarito ; (3) Ohristchurch road, from Hokitika to Springfield. The Hon Major Atkinson said that until the Bill was brought down he could give no definite reply. Replying to Mr Stevens, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that the time for making returns under the Property Tax had been extended to August Ist, and that a notification of the fact would shortly be made through the newspapers. Replying to Mr Beeves, The Hon. W. Rollbston said that it would be inconvenient to make any general rule with respect to the periodical removal of wardens and resident magistrates once at least every three years. Replying to Mr George, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that he did not expect to retrieve any revenue from the extra Customs duties on imported beer for the financial year 1880-81. NEW BUM. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time :—Gold Duties Abolition (Mr Seddon), Registration of Dentists (Mr DeLatour), Heathoote Bridge (Mr Hall). no-confidence debate. The debate on the no-confidence motion was resumed by Mr Reeves, who said that he came up with the intention of supporting the Government, but on reading these proposals he was constrained to go into Opposition. They had the material resources of prosperity within themselves if they had only men of ability and mind to administer their affairs. He condemned the property tax, and did not expect, when it was spoken of last year, that it would ever have been brought into operation. He admitted the depression, but contended that a better plan to meet the emergency might have been devised without resorting to the proposals made. A half - penny duty on wool would have realised, without any expense whatever, £150,000 per annum. He would make no distinction whatever between washed and greasy, and by that means additional labor would be employed, as all the wool would be washed in the colony. Another impost he would propose was 5s per ton on coal, which would give a sum of £40,000. That would tend to develope their own mines. The stamp duties should be increased, and the education vote reduced. Their standing army was a direotion in whioh reductions might be effected. Instead of a guard of honor in front of Government House, an old cripple woman might be got to do all that was required. He characterised the District Public Wcrks Board as an absurdity. The proposal to abolish the subsidies was unfair, inasmuch as that they were promised for a period of five years, and local bodies had entered into engagements on that understanding. They had been promised a Redistribution of Seats Bill, and he hoped that the Government would make it a condition that immediately on its passing the Parliament should go to the country. Were the mining industry better looked after the revenue would be largely increased. He sympathised with the Government in its emergency. It was being torn limb from limb by its own supporters. Captain Russell oriticised the inconsistencies of the previous speaker. He was a protectionist in the one breath and a freetrader in the other. With muon, that tho member for Clive said last night he could not agree. With regard to the proposal to reduoe the Civil Service estimates £200,000, he believed that they should be reduced, but that proposal was too sweeping. He contended that the thanks of the country were due to the Treasurer for his courage in having given them timely warning of the state into which they were drifting. The financial proposals were on the whole for the welfare of New Zealand. He approved of tho property tax. It was a slur on the industrial pursuits of the colony to say that this tax would hamper their progress. He was opposed to the beer tax. He thought that they would have done better if they had stuck fast to the property tax, and not imposed a duty on beer. Respecting the proposal to abolish the subsidies, he reminded them that the first duty they owed was to the foreign creditors. After that they must look after the local creditors, foremost among whom he ranked looal bodies. Mr Stewaet said that the debate had shown how very little could be said in support of the Financial Statement, and how successfully it could be attacked, on all hands. The more he thought over the financial proposals the moro inexplicable they appeared to him to be. He believed that the country in its various resources, with anything like deoent' management, would be one of the most prosperous in the world. If their resources were properly developed, the result would be

that they would be able to pay their debts twenty times over. The talk about repudiation was out of the question, and need not for one moment be seriously considered. The objectionable features in the property tax were that it was essontially inquisitorial in its eharaoter, and there were no proper safeguards for secrecy. Even the persons exempted had to make disclosures just as fully in. regard to their means as thoae who came under the provisions of the Act. Then, again, the tax struck at their manufactures whioh produced no incomes equally with those prodncing fixed incomes. A tax of that nature was calculated to retard enterprise. Then, again, this chopping and changing of the taxation session after sesßion was a most objectionable thing, and ono which would be disastrous to the country. He did not agree with the theory that shipping should not be taxed. He voted last session against the shipping, with the view of crushing the Bill, believing that it wan upon the whole an objectionable one. If this tax was insisted upon they might just as well proclaim the entire colony a shcop run, for sooner or later it would revert to that state. He would heartily support any effort to reduce the Civil Service. He only hoped that the reports of the other Commissioners would be as able as the Civil Service Commission Report. The members of these Commissions appeared to have been selected from only one side of the House, and that fact had done moro than any other thing to bring reflections on the Government. He hoped that the Government would see its way to make material alterations in their proposals. He was totally disinterested in the result, still that would not deter him from expressing his opinion freely on the point. Any reasonable proposals, he believed, no matter from what source they emanated, would meet with the hearty support of the House. Mr Mason argued that in the present state of the colony it should not Bpend money in education beyond the primary stages, up to say the fourth standard. Mr Huesthouse spoke in opposition to the amendment of no confidence, his remarks being interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. i EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. NO-CONPIDENOE DEBATE. The debate on the no-confidence motion was resumed by Mr Httbsthousb, who said that the country had been living in wanton extravagance for years past, and it was the duty of Parliament to cheok its further tendencies. They set a bad example to the country by the extravagant manner in whioh they conduoted their business. He referred to the mace and its empty dignities as utterly worthless, and made similar remarks about Bellamy's. He contended that if they wanted such luxuries they should pay for them out of their own pockets. The proposals of the Government were no doubt highly unsatisfactory. Any proposal to impose fresh taxation was, as a matter of fact, highly unsatisfactory ; but thoy were absolutely necessary for the credit of tho national character. He advocated abolition of tbe Mines, Marine, and Weather Reporting Departments, and that the honorarium should be reduced to bare expenses. He quite believed in primary education, but he was opposed to large tracts of country being set apart for the purposes of secondary education. They did not want that system of education whioh taught the son of a ploughman that he was destined to-be a telegraph clerk, but to teach him to become a more intelligent farmer. The army on the West Coast, he contended, was absolutely necessary. It was much cheaper to maintain a standing army than an army engaged in battle. All the mover of the amendment had told them was that the members bow on the Government benches were a very bad lot. No doubt they were, but then Sir G. Grey ond his followers were much worse. Sir W. Fox said that the whole discussion went to show that the ship was in the breakers, and that it was time that they put about. That was not a time to wrangle, as they had been doing. The first question was this, was further taxation necessary. They , had members of that happy temperament who thought it was not. According to hia reading of the faots put before them, it was ' absolutely necessary to impose further heavy taxation. If they had the sensation that the creditor was at their door, and they could not meet him, the feeling produced was a most alarming one. It had been said that it would take a great deal to make this tax palatable. He would answer that it would take a great deal to make any tax palatable. The land tax was an unfair tax, because it was a penal tax; it was imposed upon a class of whom the framer of the tax had the utmoßt detestation. Sir G. Grey exultantly told his constituents at the Thames that its effect would be to burst up the large estates. Under the property tax it was not the poor struggling tar d owner, for that was indeed a struggling class at present, who had to bear it. There was other property, and under the property tax that property was made to bear its fair shore of the burden. One reason of the unpopularity of the tax was that it had been grossly misrepresented for party purposes. He said the Act was not understood, and in the absence of that understanding the Act itself had been most deliberately and shamefully misrepresented. He quoted from a newspaper article in support of this statement. A portion of the press set about deliberately misrepresenting the true facts of the case. Then again thoy had been told that under the Act every man's circumstances would be known and that there was great danger of these being made public to the prejudice of the person taxed. The provisions of the Act itself showed that this was utterly erroneous, and that no suoh danger could possibly accrue. The examinators were all sworn to secresy, with heavy fines and long terms of imprisonment for breach of faith, indeed he could conceive nothing being rendered more secure against exposure of this kind. The member tor Olive made a speech last night which made them all stare. He stated that the country could not stand this tax; it would grind them down to the dust. Now tbe fact was that two-thirds of the population would not pay a sixpence under the tax. The member for Clive stood up last night the advocate for the rich man, and he was sorry to see it. He denied that the tax would have the effect of stopping landed improvements. The settlement of the waste lands was, no doubt, a method for relieving the present depression, but then that was a slow process, and any attempt at force in that direction would bo a very groat mistake. Trie fact was that the arguments of the member for the Thames were, that every man should have a home carved out for him from the public estate and the moment he gets that home he bscomes a public enemy. The nearest approach to barbarism was to place a man without experience on a small farm on bush land. There was no man more in favour of settlement on the waste lands than himself, when the man was suitable and the conditions right. What he reprobated was the making of this settlement question and the talk about smiling homes and happy families in the bush, a mere clap-trap election cry. It was monstrous and cruel to the very lastdegree. Nasty insinuations had been made againßt the Public Works; scheme of 1870. He would not shirk the smallest responsibility he had for that scheme. It was not that scheme that was responsible for these difficulties. Had it been carried out under the conditions upon which it was laid down, instead of having everything to regret they would have every cause for rejoicing. The mishaps of the Bcheme had arisen since its first initiation. The origin of the scheme in its conception was grand, and the man whose namo was associated with it deserved the highest honor. He next referred to the question of retrenchment, but would not rush at it like a bull at a gate. Still he thought the Government had a heavy duty to perform. They would have to harden their hearts for the occasion. It would inflict hardships on many deserving men, but still it would have to be done. Members would have to approach the question without selfish motives. It had got to be done, and would have to be done without the slightest hesitation or reservation The large expenditure now complained about as going on on the West Coast, was the appropriation of the gentleman who now complained loudest. He regarded it as a judicious expenditure, and thought that it would prove to be the key to their future relations with the Natives. Ha next referred to the Boyal Commissions. From what was said by some members one would believe that this was a now feature in constitutional Government. There was nothing new in it. It was what they did every day in that House in the appointment and work done by their Select Committees. If work of this kind was left to the Gevernment it would never be done. That Btock of evidence on the table—the Civil Service Commission evidence —was a complete answer. Let tho House wait till it saw tho work done by these commissioners, and then form their judgment

i accordingly. Gentlemen had given their time to the work absolutely without remuneration, and then they had, as they had already seen, imputations made against them. He referred to education. He counselled the Government not to endanger the great system of education they had been at so much trouble to build up. IHe did not say that it was perfect in all its parts, but he said, Stick to it, and they would yet have cause to be proud of its results. Mr Stetbns said that the public debt of the colony had risen from seven and a-half millions in ten years to something like twenty-seven and a half millions of money, the annual charge having risen from £474,000 to, in a very few weeks at least, £1,535,000. That itself showed that the time had arrived when the position of affairs required f to be looked into. When the incidenoe of taxation was somewhat thoughtlessly changed in the year 1877, they wero warned that when revenue began to fail then education was the first thing that would be attacked. That prediction had come true, as the spoech o£ the member for Port Chalmers and other members showed. Ho asked the Treasurer to disabuse his mind of the idea that the depression was merely temporary. The value of land had depreciated, the demand for their produce had sunk, and he did not see that they had anything to look forward to for a very considerable time at least. Very shortly they would have to pay interest in London by draft. For the past nine years they had not required to do that; they were able to pay interest out of loans periodically raised in the London market. They would soon begin to feel the ovil effects of this drain on their resources. The question, as suggested to hia mind by the suggestions made by the member for Olive was this : Were they going to exhaust their landed estate or loave it until it was completely exhausted. That was what his proposal about selling the landed estate amounted to. Ho at least would be no party to anything of the kind. He would like to know what was to be done in the matter of retrenchment. They had heard a good deal about retrenchment from time to time, and yet he had found that very little was ever done. He did not agree with the manner in which the Government proposed to make its reductions. Ho did not think that the proposal made for reducing' the estimates by a lump sum would do. He thought that each class should be carefully gone znto, and close investigation made with a view of ascertaining what reductions could possibly be made. If a lump sum were taken off, then the whole odium of dismissing servants would fall on the Government. He objected to thot, and thought it would be much better for the House to accept its full share of the odium. He then proceeded to review the property tax question, contending that the provisions of the Act were simple and satisfactory compared with that of the income tax. The one, he contended, was far more inquisitorial than the other. Referring to the beer tax, he said that it should bo reduced one-half, and the duties on tea and sugar reimposed. To test the opinion of the House on that point he would move, at a proper time, that these duties be reimposed. So far as local finance was concerned, he did not see his way to assent to the proposals for borrowing out of the loan. He did not agree with the power to rate up to 2s. He would propose instead that no limit should be stated, but that it should bo left to the ratepayers themselves to say what amount should be raised every year. He blamed the lato Government for the loss incurred in connection with the late loan. He asked the Government not to fetter itself in the matter of the loan agents, as the correspondence would seem to propose. He hoped that the Government waß honestly influenced with a desire to curtail the expenditure, and if they wero honest ho was sanguine that they would achieve what never had been done by any previous Government.

Mr Tawhai protested against the proposa to tax Native lands. He would give his idea of the cause of the present financial distress. It arose from the policy of the member for Rangitikei, who in 1862 commenced borrowing to destroy the people of Waikato. They had gone on borrowing ever since, but where was the money now. Not a penny of the twentyseven millions had been spent in his part of the colony, yet now the people there were to be taxed to pay interest. The colony had actually borrowed from them, for they had contributed more to the revenue than had been expended in their district. He complained of the reduction of Native officers' salaries. A standing army was kept upon the West Coast; they could save money by abolishing this army and the Native Lands Court too. If they wanted to tax all Native lands they had better get an army of 24,000 men and the money to pay them. If all the Europeans were to be blamed for the present state of affairs they had better hand over the government to 'the four Nativo members, who certainly had done nothing to cause the present distress. The Hon. T. Dice said that if the Government tried to follow out the advice they had got he wondered what would come of them. The position taken by the Opposition at the outset did not correspond with their after remarks. If the hon. member for the Thames had said "we will endeavor to assist you with our counsel and advice," the thing would have been different. The position they took, however, at the outset was very different. They set out with a spirit of hostility, although they were more conciliatory afterwards. They tell us that they do not want to supersede the Government. He could well understand the moaning of that: it meant that they were to incur all the obloquy of reducing the Civil Service, and then the Opposition would tako advantage of the weakening of their position, thereby occasioned, and step into their places. They had been told that they were driving capital out of the country. He quoted from a speech made by Sir G. Grey, and asked if that policy towards capital would suit. That was a policy no thinking man could agree to. He quoted from a speech delivered by Mr Maoandrew at Port Chalmers, in which he said that he regretted that the £5,000,000 loan had not missed fire. What would have been their position had that loan missed fire. Their commercial credit would have been ruined. It would have solved many difficulties, but it would have been by hiding their dishonoured heads. Fast events'had put them in a position that would not allow them to blow. They had to retrench, and that was not a very satisfactory state of things. In 1866 he was Superintendent of Otago, and he had retrenchment forced upon him. That was on the eve of a superintendental election, and the result was that the member for Port Chalmers oame forth from obscurity, and defeated his election. He then left £37,000 in the Treasury, and Mr Macandrew promised to make that fly, and it did fly. That would show them that he was alive to the consequences of a retrenchment policy. Still as a Government they were determined to retrench. They had no fear of the results. They were confident of their ability to carry through the polioy, and carry it through successfully. He looked to members on all sides of the House to aid them in their endeavours. The member for Olive had heaped up a funeral pyre to consume the Ministry, but it was of green wood and would not burn, and it had since been pulled to pieces. The Government would have reduced their estimates had they not been waiting for the report of the Civil Service Commission. They could not now, in the middle of the session, give the proper time to revising the estimates. They must trust the Government to do the work during the recess, or put others in their places. They would not take back the estimates to re-model them without time for fair consideration. He believed that the report would greatly assist them. The service was undoubtedly greatly overgrown, and not properly controlled in various parts of the colony. There was too much centralism, and their policy would be to give local bodies as much control over their financial expenditure as possible. The present system of local government was unsatisfactory, unworkable, and exponsive. It was a mongrel system. Their policy was to give the fullest possible local control. If good land could not find purchasers, how did Mr Ormond expect poor pastoral land to sell. They were not in ouch a panio as to sacrifice the public estate to rich men who wanted large sheep runs. If supported by the House ana country the Government would carry the colony safely through all its difficulties to a position of permanent prosperity without such sacrifice. They were now face to face with the difliculties resulting from ten years of reckless spending. Leaving aside all who wero responsible for that, they should now unite in helping the Government to overcome these difliculties, or else take their places on those benches, when he would bo willing to aisist them. Mr J. T. Fibheb produced the resolution of a public meeting held at Lincoln in Canterbury, demurring to tho property tax as unfair, and acquiescing in the withdrawal of the subsidies. Tho Maori lands exemption

was most outrageous. Now was the time to reduce the public service. Government wanted twelve months to do that, but he would say do it at once. Now that the Government could not borrow they proposed to give the local bodies these powers. He would remit the tax on beer, and put it on brewers' sugar. Mr Sp bight moved the adjournment of the debate, and the House rose at 12.20 a.m.