GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 1977, 25 June 1880, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PEE PBESS ASSOCIATION SPECIAL WISE.] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, June 24. In the Legislative Council there was some discussion on a point of order raised by the Hon. N. Wilson, re the Secretary of the Wellington Racing Club placing a totalisator on view in one of the rooms for members to see. Sir F. Bell protested against the building being used for other than Parliamentary purposes. The Speaker said he and the Speaker of of the House had given the secretary permission. i Replying to the Hon. Captain Fraser, The Hon. F. Whitakbb said that Mr M'Neill, a late bankrupt, had been appointed Property Tax Assessor at Balelutha. He did not know if M‘Neill had got a certificate of discharge. Two motions by Sir F. Bbix and the Hon. G. M. Watbhhousb, re stock conversion and commission to Sir J. Vogel, were deferred to next day. The Brands and Branding Bill was read a third time and passed. The Thames Water Supply Transfer (Hon, F. Whitaker) was read a first time. Tho Deceased Husband’s Brother Marriage Bill was road a first time after a short discussion, in which the Hon. 001. Beett termed the measure obscene.

The Hon. Mr Mbnzies moved for a call of of the Council on July 16th, to consider the Deceased Wife’s Sister Marriage Bill. On this there was a long, disorderly, and irregular discussion, during which several members were called to order. Some emphatic expressions were used concerning mem3era (of whom there are now twelve) habitually absent. Ultimately, after two divisions, the call was rejected by 22 votes to 8. All the papers relating to the volunteer misconduct were laid on the table. The Deaths by Accident Compensation Bill, the Adulteration Bill, the Juries Bill, tho Cruelty to Animals Bill (Statute revision Bills) were passed through Committee and read a third time. The Council adjourned at 5 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, June 24. The House met at 2 30 p.m. NOTICE OF MOTION. Mr Seddon gave notice of his intention to introduce a Gold Duty Abolition Bill, also a Bill to legalise the payment of members of the General Assembly. DUNEDIN SANDHILLS. Mr Babbon moved that the reports of the Waste Lands Committee on the petition of the Mayor and 3400 inhabitants of St. Kilda be referred back for consideration. Ho explained that his object was to direct the attention of the House to the damage likely to result from the removal of certain sandhills. He suggested the building of a wall, should the Government determine upon removing the sand. Tho motion was negatived on tho voices. The Hon. B. Oliver promised to watch the interests of the petitioners in this matter jealously, and stop the removal on the slightest appearance of danger. THE “IMAGINARY SWAMP.”

Major Harris moved that leave of absence bo granted for a week to Mr Hamlin. Sir W. Fox asked for further information as to the nature of tho business for which leave of absence was sought. It had appeared from the public prints that he had gone away to the West Coast for the purpose of discovering an imaginary swamp, the existence of which had been already denied.

Mr Geobge insisted that it was improper to resist an application of this kind. It was customary for such applications to be granted on the simple assertion that it was required for urgent private business. It was understood that tho member had got into a swamp, and that was the reason of his absence. Mr Eeeybs pointed out that the Native Minister had followed Mr Hamlin in the Government steamer. Mr Hamlin would on his return give a faithful account of the real facts of the case, and that was more than they could get from other sources. He contended that that was sufficiently urgent business to warrant the leave of absence sought. The Hon. G. McLean complained that this action on the part of the Opposition was calculated to excite the Native mind, and that was what the country would say it any evil consequences ensued. Mr Andrews condemned the opposition made to the application, and at the same time

reprobated the practice o£ members absenting themselves without leave. Mr Hubbthousk said that the member had not, as alleged, gone on private business. He had gone on public business, and thought the application should bo amended accordingly. Instead of seven, he would suggest that it bo fourteen days, as he (Mr Hursthouse) knew the country very well, and believed that it would take fourteen days, and even then he would have some difficulty in finding a swamp. Mr Seddon argued that, so far as they could tell, a blunder had boon made in making the road through the swamp. The statement having been made, and contradicted by the Government, it was right and proper that the question should be set at rest. The Hon. Major Atkinson complained that the statement made by the Native Minister had, in his absence, been misrepresented. They hod further information that no road had been abandoned, and no swamp encountered. The Government had instructed plans of the road to be prepared for the information of the House. The name of Mr Orombie Brown, correspondent of the “ Lyttelton Times,” had been mci.t.oned. It was quite possible that they might have something to say about that gentleman before the matter was finally disposed of. There could be no objection to Mr Hamlin or any other member visiting the district. Major Habbis, in replying, stated that it had been alleged that a sum of £33,400 had been thrown away in connection with this road. It was bettor, for all concerned, that the matter should be put at rest one way or another. The motion was then put and agreed to. CIVIL SERVICE REPORT.

Dr. Waxxis asked at what hour previous to 12 p.m. on Friday, June 18th, ISSO, the Government supplied tho “ Now Zealand Times ” newspaper, and the “ Otago Daily Times ” and tho Christchurch Passs newspaper with copies of tho report of tho Civil Service Royal Commission. In explanation, he stated that the copies in question hod been obtained by the “Now Zealand Times,” “Now Zealand Herald,” “Otago Daily Times,” and Christchurch Pebbs, and published by these papers to the prejudice of other journals. The Hon. J. Haxx said that tho report became public property eo soon as it was forwarded to* the Governor, and before it was laid on the table of the House. It was forwaidod to the Governor at 4 o’clock on the afternoon of Friday, and was returned to him abeut 7 o’clock. Ho had not an opportunity of laying it on the table until a late hour of the evening. In the interim, two press reporters applied to him and obtained copies of the report. It was simply a case of vigilance on their part, and had applications been made to him by other members of tho prose ihoy, too, would have been supplied with copies. It was simply a case in which one or two press reporters were more active than their neighbours. Had all been equally active they would all have had copies alike. Mr Jonbs asked what steps had been taken to discover and punish the person who stole tho report of the Royal Civil Service Commission, as stated in the House on tho 20th inst. by the ?Jinistor for Justice. The Hon. J. Haxx replied that “ stolen ” was rather a stronger phrase than tho Government wished to convey. He would prefer saying that a report was obtained in a highly irregular manner by a member of the Press. He had questioned the Government printer as to how the report had been got hold of, and the reply he made was, that it could not possibly have been got through any laches in the office. If tho Government could find out tho offender they would certainly cause him to be punished most severely. questions. Replying to Major Harris, The Hon. J. Haxx said tho Government did not intend to grant fifty'acre sections each near Parihaka to one hundred or more men guaranteeing to reside on and hold tho same against hostile Natives. Any such guarantee would be completely valueless, and the Government wore hopeful of getting tho difficulty ended in a peaceful‘way. Replying to Mr Macandrew, Tho Hon. R. Olives said that tho Government had no advice of tho specimens of railway wheels cast from Taranaki iron sand and the specimens of forgings from scrap iron turned out at the Government workshops, Port Chalmers, and sent to Sydney Exhibition, having received favorable notica, or indeed auy notice at all. Replying to Mr Turnbull, The Hon. R. Oliver said arrangements had been made to employ otherwise unemployed men at the Fairlie Creek line. Replying to Mr Shrimski, The Hon. W. Roxxkbton said that no result had been arrived at in regard to the claim of Mr Thomas Bussell for a largo portion of land in Te Aroha Block, Replying to Mr Seddon, Tho Hon. J. Haxx said that the subject of reforming the divorce law had been a point referred to the judges, and they had reported in favor of such reform as to assimilate it to the law of England, and he could not say yet whether or not an amended Act would bo brought down this session. Mr Pitt asked whether attention has been directed to the judgment of the Supreme Court in Wellington delivered in the cose of Wedder v Finnimore, reported in tho “ New Zealand Times ” newspaper of April Ist last, and whether the Government will introduce a Bill during the present session to amend the Injuries by Dogs Act, 1865, so as to make the said Act better answer the purposes for which it was passed. Mr Eoxxeston replied that when the Dogs Registration Bill was before the House the subject could be better dealt with. NO-CONEIDENCB DEBATE, The debate on the no-confidonce motion was resumed by Mr Htjtohison who, in alluding to tho Civil Service Commission, said that he agreed with tho report re railway management, but the inquiries ought to have been conducted by the Government itself. These Commissions would cost a sum not less than £IO,OOO, and that amount could have been very well saved. It was not a large sum, but in the present state of the colony it should have been saved. Alluding to tho subsidies, ho acquiesced in their withdrawal, but did so simply because he saw no possibility of giving them. Government had been warned last year that the property tax as passed was an inquisitorial measure, but they had a majority at their back and they would listen to nothing. Tho schedules attached to the Act were completely unintelligible and no one, not oven the Government itself, was able to make anything out of them. They had cost a lot of money, but that was not tho worst feature of them. They caused a great amount of unnecessary trouble and vexation to the general public. Tho tendency of the tax was calculated to debar capital from coming into the colony,|and that of itself was a very bad feature of the Act. Referring to the Natives now in prison, Le protested against such monstrous injustice, and insisted that they should bo brought to trial at the earliest possible moment. The debate was interrupted by tho 5.30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. NO-CONPIDENOB DEBATE. The no-confidence debate was resumed by Mr Macandrew, who said that he would support the motion of tho member for the Thames. Until the public works statement was brought down, tho financial proposals could only bo discussed in a very general way. There ought to be no further borrowing involving a drain on the colony for interest. Existing loans involved a drain of a million and three-quarters, and that was a very serious matter. The existing .depression was traceable to that fact. It was calculated to dry up tho springs of industry. He could not agree with the opinion that public works should be stopped unless provided for out of revenue. He hoped that the Government would announce its determination of carrying out in its integrity the Railway policy of 1878, and that, too, without going beyond tho seas for assistance. Tho time had come when they had to face, not tho reckless policy of provincialism but one of rampant esntralism, one that he had denounced for years. Ho owned to having been a promoter of tho public works policy, but ho was not responsible for ital abuses. He never would have gone in for it had ho not expected it would have boon locally administered. They could stave off tho evil day, but he could not agree in tho gloomy tone adopted by the Treasurer, nor yet as to the means ho proposed to adopt for restoring the body politic. He appeared to think there wos nothing for it but to use i tho lance freely. He thought they had gone i far enough in that direction, and it was just , possible that they might kill instead of cure 1 tho patient. He thought that further taxation should not be resorted to. Ho believed in i the incidence of taxation being more equally ) distributed. An income tax|was spoken of,

but that was little better than the obnoxious property tax. If the expenditure was in excess of income, then the former must be i curtailed. The question should be,_ how can i wo best reduce taxation instead of increasing it. The Government should leave parish i business to be done by those best suited for the work, and confine itself to federal purposes. He believed that taxation was not only enough, but too much. The localities should be left to raise the tax for their own local requirements- This was to some extent what was proposed to be done, but then it was proposed to empty the pockets of the districts. He had hoped that the property tax would bo abandoned altogether. Two years ago the beer tax was denounced. It was the utter incapacity of the Treasurer which made him now resort to it. He hoped that the property tax would be abandoned. The amendment was not a desire or intention on their part to unseat the Government j they were not bidding for office at all. It was a false issue put forward by the Government, and it complicated the debate in a manner that should not have been done. So far as he was concerned, he wished the mind of the Government to be disabused on that point. He wished all hands to work the pumps in order that they might save the vessel. Had he been consulted he would have advised the Treasurer to frame his statement something after this style. (A written scheme of finance, in the shape of a financial statement, was read by the hon. member). They had been told that it would take a million of money for salaries and wages, but a much lees sum should suffice. They were asked to vote £378,000 for a standing army. Such a proposal was absurd. Ho agreed that the land revenue should not bo considered as consolidated revenue. It should be devoted for the purposes of the districts from whence it was derived. With regard to the local public works board he agreed with what had been said in condemnation of the proposal. The land fund ought to bo devoted now entirely to the construction of railways. He referred to a statement made that the £5,000,000 loan was negotiated on unfavourable terms simply on account of the late Government. But for the indecent haste the present Government exhibited in storming those benches, the Loan Bill would have been passed early in July last and got home in good time for negotiation. Fortunately, the present Treasurer’s budget speech of October last did not reach homo until about a month after the loan had been negotiated; otherwise he questioned if it would have been negotiated at all. Another cause of the unfavourable terms on which the loan was negotiated was the urgent telegrams that were sent home that money must be had. The late Government had provided against a similar emergency, and were prepared to follow a very different course had they remained in office. Much that was said by Messrs Wood and Saunders might well have been left unsaid. He challenged them to propose that the estimates should bo sent back for reconstruction. If they did that they would bo the saviours of their country. He demurred more particularly to Mr Wood's talk about repudiation and the flippant manner in which it was uttered. There wore some things which ought not to bo hinted at, even in jest, and one of these was repudiation. When he heard him speak thus he could not help saying to himself, Are those the dootrinoo of the future AgentGeneral of New Zealand ? Ho next referred to the imputations made against the late Government in connection with immigration. Great pressure was brought to boar on them to bring out immigrants, in token of which he read a communication on the subject from municipal councils and employers of labor throughout Otago. These communications wore dated January, 1878, and of course they could not bo given effect to in much loss then twelve months. As a member of the Government whoso conduct was impugned ho was not at all ashamed of the number of immigrants they had introduced. What they wanted even now was mouths to feed. What ho would now advise was that the estimates should be taken back and remodelled. No doubt a number of Civil servants would have to be dispensed with, and he saw no reason why they should not be settled on a decent piece of land. They cannot find work otherwise.

The Hon. B. Oliver congratulated the last speaker on his skill in manufacturing financial statements. Had he exercised his undoubted ability in that line when he was in the Government it would perhaps have been better for tho country, and undoubtedly it would have been to tho advantage of the Government of which|ho was a prominent member. It was plain that there was no proper understanding or agreement amongst those on the Opposition side. It was not the finance of tho colony that they had been considering, but a general system of doing everything, down to governing the universe. It was a most disagreeable duty to be called upon to engage in this unseemly fight, to simply defend tho Government benches, without any colonial advantage or benefit being gained for the colony at large. He contended that a property tax was more in the form of an all-round tax than anything that could bo devised. It was not only a land tax, but it doubled tho taxation under that tax. He defended Mr Eaader Wood against the aspersions oast upon him. In reference to his remarks re repudiation, he felt quite cure that the members never seriously contemplated any such thing. The member for Port Chalmers was somewhat unintelligible when he spoke about no more borrowing and tho energetic pushing on of the public works policy of 1878. He quoted from a speech made by the member at Port Chalmers, in which he said that ho (Mr Maeandrew) had often thought that it would have been much bettor if the £5,000,000 loan had missed fire. He did not see how he reconciled that statement with what he had just now said about the negotiation of that loan. The present Government would gladly quit the Government benches if they could do so with any approach to honour or a sense of duty. They would bo only too glad to leave [then ; of that he could assure them.

Mr Osmond criticised the speech made by the member for Port Chalmers, Had the principle laid down by Mr Macandrew re railways have been applied to Otago many of the non-paying lines in that province would never have existed. His proposal about placing disbanded civil servants on the land was utterly impracticable. Referring to the scheme of finance for local bodies, the argument in favor of the retention of the subsidies was solely based oh the assertion that they wore promised for a period of five years. With another argument of this branch ho had more sympathy, namely, that it would cripple these bodies to take them away. It was one of those things, however, that would have to bo done, or else they would have to face a crushing burden of taxation. If outlying local bodies were to exist at all then the proposal of the Government was the only one that could bo given effect to. He thought that thoro ought to be no exemption from local taxation. The Natives belonging to the district from which he came did, he was sure, recognise the advantages they gained from local works, and would not hesitate to pay the tax. It was a proposal he was sure which they could not refuse to entertain. He strongly condemned the proposal to tax Europeans to pay the Native rate. He did not concur in the constitution of the proposed Local Works Board. When the Native Minister made statements about the misapplication of certain suras of money, tbo Government ought to be prepared for the fullest possible investigation, and ho hoped that the House would insist upon such being done before they separated. The beer tax, as proposed, was too high, and he thought one half the amount would bo enough. Then, again, ho disagreed with the property tax. It was driving capital out of the colony. Men desirous of making improvements were staying their hand, consequently labor was made scarce. The outcome of this state of things would bo that the population would go from the colony. If the persons who had been brought out at a large cost to the colony were driven away, he would ask in what condition they would bo loft. lie felt that the majority of the House and the majority of the country wore opposed to the tax. Ho'oounsolled them to find some moans of taxation leas ruinous. The tax he would propose was an income tax. He believed that was what the country desired to have. The proposed reduction in the expenditure was altogether inadequate. The plan was to vote for a lump sum being taken off the estimates, say £200,000. He would support such a vote. It was not a trifling reduction which was wanted. The first great step was to make the Civil Servants feel that it was not the Department alone that they had to deal with, but with the colony. His only object was to strengthen the hands of the Government. Ho believed that the colony would insist upon economy of this kind. Ho would ask, was there no other means for meeting their difficulties than taxation ; no means of increasing the revenue

and reducing liabilities. He believed that there was. They were told that they bad thirteen millions of Crown lands. Are they lands which it is to the interest of the colony to conserve for settlement. It would be advantageous no doubt that large portions of purely pastoral land, which would not be of use during our own lifetime or that of our children, should be made to bear the burden of the present emergency. What was the advantage of holding that estate ? It appeared to him that it was a mistake to hold these lands at a time like this. The land itself was not bearing its fair share of the burdens. Before many years were over the increase of population would put the colony into its proper position, and the estate was undoubtedly the direction to which they aeould look in existing emergencies. The next point referred to was the railways. As a Government, he did not think that they were ever likely to make these railways pay. Being in that position, the question arose whether or not it was worth while keeping these linos. The country had come to the conclusion that they could be worked better by private companies. They could bo sold under conditions of settlement along the line. A change in that direction would obviate much of the odium at present cast upon them. The disposal of these lines, coupled with the disposal of the public estate to which he had referred to, would relieve them of onehalf of the public debt, and thereby enable them to carry on the work of settlement more efficiently. He then came to local Government. Was it cheap or was it efficient ? It was neither. He had worked for abolition, and he now confessed that to some extent it was a mistake. What they should have done was to insist upon a modification of provincialism. He believed that they would yet have to reverb to a modified system of provincialism. As abolitionists, they had not sufficiently appreciated the geographical difficulties of governing this colony. Ho referred to the Civil Service report as pointing out ways in which a simple form of Government of this kind might be adopted. It pointed out that no General Government, however efficient, could do ample justice in governing from a common centre like Wellington. Whatever form was substituted for the present form of local government, it would have to be purely administrative. Ho believed that it would not be long before effect was given in the minds of the publio to the views he had now expressed. Re a modified provincialism, he trusted that his suggestions would be carefully considered before the Government attempted to give effect to their financial proposals. Ho had said enough to show that it would be impossible for him to vote for the amendment.

Mr Shephard thought that the Public Works Minister had addressed the House as a lot of refractory school children. With Mr Macandrew’s views in borrowing he did not agree. If tho railway liabilities had been localised as originally intended matters would not have got into their present slate. Tho country was getting alarmed with these proposals, and ho agreed with tho last speaker that a feeling was abroad in favor of some form of provincialism being restored. It was most disastrous to think that no fewer than 11,000 of the population was engaged in the public service. It was in that direction that retrenchment must bo applied. The whole service would have to be remodelled. Ho condemned the property tax as being bad in principle. The proposals of Mr Ormond about selling portions of the waste lands might also be adopted in the present pressing emergencies. He deprecated party feeling. He desired to see the country governed in a way to restore prosperity. He was compelled to vote for the amendment, as ho could not deny that the proposals were not as a whole calculated to promote the welfare of the country. Mr Sutton was not satisfied with the proposals, but at tho same time he thought that the Government as constituted was bettor able to administer the office than any other Government likely to be formed. The Civil Service had outgrown all reasonable proportion, He could corroborate much that was contained in the Commissioners’ report. He saw no reason why Native lands should not pay the same as European lands. He did not believe in Government by Commission, but he quite approved of the appointment of the late Commissioners, and hoped that the Government would lose no time in acting on the Civil Service report. The House adjourned at 12 30.