GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 1976, 24 June 1880, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PER PBES3 ASSOCIATION SPECIAL WIBB.J LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wbdnesday, June 23. In the Legislative Council, The Hon. Mr Menzies presented a Southland petition asking for a Special Committee to inquire into the rabbit pest. The Hon. Mr Taiaboa gave notice to ask how many Native assessors have been dismissed or reduced. The Hon. Colonel Whitmobb said he would ask the Government if they will place the Agent-Generalship on a more satisfactory footing and arrange new terms for future appointments to the office. The Hon. F. Whitakeb gave notice to introduce the Thames Water Bill, and the Hon. Colonel Bbbtt to move that all papers be laid on the table re late volunteer outrages. Sir F. D. Bell stated that the Weßt Coast Commission would send in their final report very shortly, but the work had been delayed through the wide nature of the researches to be gone into.

Replying to the Hon. Capt. Fraser, The Hon. F. Whitakeb said that the Government had directed Mr Binns, mining inspector, to report whether men have to be carried helpless out of the Shag Point Mine, owing to bad ventilation. On the motion for the third reading of the Impounding Bill, the Hon. Col. Whitmobb moved its recommittal to intert a clause for half trespass rates on unfencod land. After some discussion this proposition was rejooted and the Bill read a third time. The Hon. Col. Whitmobb moved the second reading of the Moorhouae Services Recognition Bill. The Hon. Col. Bbett seconded. Both gentlemen highly eulogised Mr Moorhouse's services and character.

A long discussion ensued, in whioh the Hons. Capt. Fraser, Mr Mantell, Dr. Pollen, Dr. Grace, Mr Buckley, Sir F. D. Bell, Mr Chamberlin, Mr Scotland, and others, ridiculed the paltriness of the proposed recognition, while speaking highly of Mr Moorhouse.

The Hon. Mr Buckley said that the framer of tho Bill must have meant it as a practical joke. The Hon. Mr Chambeblin said that Mr Moorhouae stated in his hearing that tho Bill proposed to give him a State pauper's ticket.

All spoke against giving the testimonial system the dignity of Parliamentary recognition, and several characterised the measure as an insult to Mr Moorhouae. The Hon. Captain Fbaseb said that Mr Moorhouae should bo given 5000 acres of land.

Tha Hon. N. Wilson spoke in fav:r of the Bill, and the Hon. Mr Mantell moved that it be thrown out, which was done by 19 to 9.

For the Bill—The Hods. Baillie, Brett, Dignan, LahmaD, Martin, Richmond, Whitmore, Whitaker, Wilson. Against —The Hons. Campbell, Chamberlain, Fraser, Grace, Hart, Johnston, Johnson, Mantell, Menzies, Miller, Paterson, jjPefcors, Pharazyn, Reynolds, Sootland, Waterhouse, Williamson.

On the motion to go into Committee on the Deceased Wife's Sister Bill, the opponents of the measure obstructed its progress by various means, asserting that it was attempted to bo hurried through while those most opposed to it were away, not knowing that it would be brought on. Ultimately, after much discussion, and half a dozen divisions, in two of which the Speaker was obliged to give a casting vote, the committal of the measure was postponed to July Ist, for which date the Hon. Mr Menzies gave notice for a " call " of the Council. The Council rose at 5.15 p.m. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, June 23. The House met at 2.30 p.m. petitions. A number of petitions from Otago and Southland, relative to the retention of the bottle license, wore presented. CIYIL SEBVIOB COMMISSION BBPOBT. Mr Macandbbw asked if the whole ovi-

denco upon whioh the report of the Boyal Commission on the Civil Servioe is formed will be laid before the House and when ; also, if the Government will be good enough to lay before this House a return showing the nature and extent to which the Commisaioner of Railways for the South Island is alleged to be a partner; also, whether or not before the report was presented, the Commissioner of Eailways had an opportunity of rebutting the charges and imputations made against him. The Hon. R. Olives replied that the evidence had not been received by the Government, and they did not know the intentions of the Commission on the subject, and they had no information as to the other queries put. Mr Bastion movod the adjournment of the House, and in so doing, insisted that it was of the utmost importance that the evidence in question should be produced. The Hon. W. Gisbobne B&id that Government should insist upon the production of the evidence taken by the commission. They had a most alarming report, and the country had a right to know whethor that report was baood on reliable evidence. Mr Macandbew said that if the statements made by the report were true, the South Island Railway Commisaioner should ho discharged. He thought they should insist upon the evidence. As to the rest of the report lie could havo written it iu his own office. The Hon. R. Oiivbr said that it was to bo presumed that some portion of the evidenca wo ild be produced. They had instructed the South Island Commissioner to make a full report, in which case they would have his statement on the point. Mr Speight said that this was one of the first results of Government by commission. The House ought at onoe to bo informed whether the Commission bad finished its work or not. Ho thought that Parliament was entitled to have every particle of the evidence made public. Ho hoped that they would insist upon every line of the evidence bei"g forthcoming. He was sure that unreliab'e evidence had been produoed, and they had a right to know that reliance was to be placed on the evidence as a whole.

Mr Reeves concurred, adding that it was understood that the Commissioners had resigned, and every opportunity should be given tho officers whose characters were assailed to clear themselves of tho aspersions thrown on them.

Mr Mttebay pointed out that the House was prejudging a case that waß still under consideration He could well understand that much of the evidence was given in a confidential way. He would suggest the appointment of a committee to inquire into all the facts of the case and report whether or not the report is fair as based on the evidence adduced. Colonel Thimble said that after the labors of the Commission had been concluded, it would be time enough to call for the evidence. Theyohad enough before them, however, to insist upon the Government making great reductions. Mr Moss said that there was a -.tatement made in tho report not only affecting the professional, but likewise the personal character of men in responsible positions. He thought, seeing that there was no evidence in support of the report, the report itself should be thrown out of doors. He knew of his own knowledge that secret evidence had been taken, evidence which would not bear the sorutiny of public opinion. The Hon. J. Hail thought that it was a pity this disoussion should be revived at this particular moment. It would have to be discussed, and when all the documents were laid on the table that would be the proper time. He apprehended that the evidence would be forthcoming, as he had no reason to doubt that all the evidence on whioh the report is based would be forwarded to the Government, who would lay' it on tho table. Instead of disparaging the Commission, he thought that the country was deeply indebted to it. He did not say that the Government agreed with all that was Bet forth in the report; still he would say that it contained many valuable suggestions. Mr DeLautoub said that the report had been in a manner tampered with. It had been published on Saturday morning in Wellington, Auckland, Chrietohurch and Dunedin, so that it must have been forwarded by telegram not later than ten o'clock the previous evening, hours before it was laid on the table of the house. He moved as an amendment to the motion for adjournment —" That a copy of the evidence be furnished to the officers whose conduct is impugned."

The Speakbe ruled this out of order. Mr Sbddon said that the service was as corrupt as shown by the report. Time after time the Government had been challenged in connection with the civil servioe, and now that they had got a report on it the House appeared to regret having called for it. The evidence might be published, but the names of the witnesses should he withheld. Considering the state of the colony, and the heavy burden of taxation they had to face, it was monstrous for members to take up the position they did on this occasion. Economy must be practised, and now that they bad a report in that direction, he quite concurred in it.

Capt. Russell spoke in favor of the evidence being published. He was glad to hoar what the Premier had said. He hoped that ho would now tell them that every tittle of evidence would be published. Those who gave evidence and wore afraid to have

known, were cowards. The Hon. B. Oiivbb said'that as soon as the evidence was sent them he would furnish a copy ta the officers implicated. He had now reason to believe that the evidence would be forthcoming from the Oommiesionera. Mr Stbwabt quoted Parliamentary authorities to show that the Government was not bound to produce the evidence sought. So far as he could see it was a matter entirely for Ministers to say whether it would be to the public interest or not whether or not they would produce this class of evidence. He could imagine cases where opinions would be withheld if it was known that superior officers were to have full information on the point. Mr Andbbws supported the proposal that the evidence be published.

Mr Hutchison did not see what the evidence would do towards assisting them to understand the report. All the work was being made about two Bailway Commissioners and some others. Now, these were highly paid men, and was it beoauee they wero badly paid that this work was being made about the evidence. If that was the way they were going to carry out their professions of economy, he pitied the country. He bad a very strong opinion about the necessity for retrenchment in the Railway Department.

The Hon. G. McLean said this was just a sample of what they might expect if the Government attempted to interfere with the Civil Service. They should back up the Government in its endeavor to economise. Ho believed that the Bailway Commissioner of the South Island would come out of the inquiry better than they imagined. In thiß cato the parties concerned could very easily clear themselves withont all this trouble. So soon ao they touched the Civil Service they were howled down. It would turn out that the railways service had been a sort of relief for the destitute. It had not always been the fault of the Railway Commissioners, but men had been thrust upon them by other influence.

Mr Babbon said that considering the nature of the charges made against the South Island Commissioner, he thought it was but right that they should have full details. If that oharge was at all correct he should not be kept one day in the service of the Government. The posilion of affairs was most urgent, and that was to some extent an apology for the debate, whioh was otherwise irregular.

Mr Johnston thought it was improper for the Government to lay the report before Parliament until they had the evidence. Mr Pxkb also supported that view of the question. They were sitting there to some extent as a jury, and in that capacity it was necessary that they should have the whole of the evidence before them. He contended that the report itself showed that it was defective. It admitted that the subject had not been dealt with exhaustively, and he quoted the remark made about the cost of Arrowtown Gaol, which he, speaking from his own personal knowledge, knew to be wrong. Unless the evidence was put forward, the report was nothing else than waste paper. If the charge made against the Mouth Island Commissioner was false, that officer would be entitled to the largest possible compensation a court of law would award him. The Hon. W. Rojkleston said that he had no doubt but that the evidonce would be produced, and that the fullest possible opportunity would bo offorded the officors implicated to rebut the charges made. The report in a garbled form had been actually stolen, and in that form it appeared in print some

days before it was Bent in. The Government was not responsible for that. Sir Geo. Geey denied that the Opposition was standing in the way of making retrenchment. He took it that a fair inquiry should have been made into all the accounts of the case where charges were made against officers. Tne service contained men of high ability and integrity, and these aocusations would tend to damage the oharacter of the sorvice. If names were withheld, an injustice would be done to the service. Everyone would be blamed for the objectionable evidence given, which would have the effect of wholly disorganising the sorvice. Such being the case, it was to bo hoped that the evidence would be forthcoming. He was glad to hear that the Government was not privy to the premature publication of the report, and that its publication was facilitated by a fraud. The Hon. Major Atkinson was glad that the House took suoh deep interest in the charaotor of the Civil Service, though the debate had proceeded on a false issue. Did anyone know whether or not the Commissioners did not give a copy of the evidence to the officers implicated. They were bound to assume that the Commission had done its duty, and the report was based on the most decided evidenco. Under those circumstances this was a covert attack on the Commission, and sot an attempt to defend the Civil Service. It had been reported that the Government was to be attacked in respect of the disclosures in the report. In that case it would appear that the Government was to be placed between two fires. His opinion was that it was the persons connected with the service, and not the service itself, that the Opposition was so solicitous about. The purport of the report had got into the papers, and it was their business to get the report itself placed before the country at the very earliest moment.

Mr Montgomeb? said that they had got out of tho Government that the report was stolen, and that the theft had been made for publication purposes in the Government newspapers. He hoped that the evidence would be published. Had the Minister for Public Works made his reply as full as the Premier subsequently made it, all this debate would have been avoided.

The motion for the adjournment was then put and negatived on the voices. Dr. Wallis gave notice that he would ask the Government to state for the information of the House, at what hour copies of the Civil Service Report had been furnished for transmission by telegraph to the " Auckland Herald," Ohristchurch "Pross," and "Otago Daily Times." and given to the "New Zealand Times."

Mr Jones gave notice that he would ask what steps had been taken to discover and punish the culprit who is alleged to have stolen a copy of the Civil Sorvice Commissioners' Report, as stated by the Government.

The Hon. W. Gisbobkb asked whether the present report of the Civil Service Commission is considered by the Government to be an ad interim or a final report. The Hon. J. Ham, replied that the Commission had been returned, and that therefore it had no longer an official existence. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Richmond, The Hon. W. Rollbston said it was not tho intention during the present session to amend the Education Act, with a view of charging fees for those attending Government schools, or reverting to the old provincial system of household rates, so as to recoup in some measure the sum of £297,730, which the House is asked to vote for this year's expenditure upon education. Replying to Mr Stewart as to whether the Government will support an amendment of the law, so that persons sustaining loss from the ignorance or careleasneßß of telegraph officials may obtain compensation, The Hon. J. Hall said telegraphic regulations all over the world protected themselves against such loss, and it would entail a much heavier charge for messages if such a responsibility were to be accepted. Replying to Mr Allwright, The Hon. R. Olitbb said that effeot had not been given to the committee's report of last session on railway free passes. NEW BILLS. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time : —The Hospital and Charitable Aid Endowment Bill, Committee (Mr Stevens), the New Zealand University and University Colleges Bill (Mr Tole) , the New Zealand University Reserves Bill, the High School Reserves Bill, tho Cemeteries Bill, the Canterbury Rivers Act Amendment Bill (Hon. W. Rolleston), the Beer Duty Bill (in oommitt ee), the Deceased Persons'Estates Duties Bill (Major Atkinson). NO-CONPIDENCB DEBATE. The debate on the no-confidence motion was resumed by Mr Thomson, who contended that it was the people of New Zealand, and not any particular Government, who were responsible for the present depression. He never was a supporter of Sir Julius Vogel, but he was alive to the faot that had his policy, as originally propounded, been carried out in its integrity the depression would not have been so keenly felt. What he proposed was the expenditure of a sum of £8,500,000, extending over a period of ten years, but that was very soon departed from. He knew that they had been going on recklessly spending borrowed money without the slightest regard to the purposes for which it was expended. He charged the Government with attempting to effect an apparent saving by transferring sums to next year's account. Retrenchment, he admitted, was a difficult question to deal with, but what he complained of was- that they took credit for making savings in the expenditure whioh were not actually the case. The debate was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. KO-CONPIDBNOB DEBATE.

Mr Thomson resumed the debate. He was not anxious to see the Governmentjdriven from their benches. The principle of making districts answerable for the deficiency on the working of district railway lines ought to have been insisted upon. It was the only plan that would prevent an indiscriminate scramble for these lines. He did not think that the property tax was needed. The land tax yielded £IOO,OOO, and had it been raised from a halfpenny to one penny the amount yielded would be £200,000. He criticised the proposals for local finance. The Treasurer had promised to bring down a system that would not • only be satisfactory but likewise of a permanent character. These proposals were neither. They were not satisfactory, and as for permanence he doubted if they would ever see the light of day. He deprecated the proposal to knock off borrowing altogether; thereaction would be too great. They should borrow.i say half a million a year, and that would prevent the reaction from the late borrowing system being felt so severely. That would be enough to enable them to go on with really judicious works without tempting them to embark in reckless undertakings. He had every faith in the future of New Zealand, and if they came to a standttill, an adverse influence would be exercised on their securities.

The Hon. F. Whitakeb moved that the House adjourn. The importance of the question at issue, coupled with the state of the House, justified the proposal. It was well known that certain festivities were going on, which was the reason that so many were absent.

Major Habbis opposed the adjournment, and Mr Maoandbbw supported it. Mr TtTENBULii objected to the adjournment, and, speaking to it, proceeded to discuss the main question. He blamed the Government for not bringing down more information, so as to enable them to go on with the debate properly. In grappling with the difficulties into which the colony has fallen, the Government had not shown sufficient courage. Instead of talkine so much about these difficulties, if they had set about quietly to rectify the evil, they would have done far more real good. The public credit was a very delicate thing, and was easily destroyed. He blamed the Treasurer by his injudicious alarm for having injured the publio credit. Anv number of promises were made about steps being taken to oounteraot the evil, but as yet he cDuld not see that any thiDg had been done towards redeeming those promises. He did not propose to follow the course pursued by so many members of calling out in dolorous accents. What he proposed doing was to assist the Government in doing that which they had so long neglected doing, viz., to rectify the evil as it existed. If the Government would only bring down bold measures they would all be prepared to assist them. The first means for re-establishing matters involved the question of taxation. They should first of all deoide upon a permanent form of taxa-

tion, and for that reason he advocated a land tax in preference to a property tax. The former was a more permanent subject for taxation than the other. The property tax itself would be much more acceptable to people if its imposition on maohinerry were not enforced. In the- way of retrenchment, be said that Ministers had acted rightly in reducing, or at all events in proposing to reduce, their own salaries. It would have been more graceful had they taken that step months ago. They should, however, commence at the top of the tree. They should cut down the Governor's salary, say £SOO or £6OO per annum. If they could not do it with this Governor they Bhould make arrangements for the future. He would not be in favor of a single servant being dismissed ; it would be a cruel step. What he would counsel would bo to reduce their salaries upon a graduating scale, to commence with £BOO men, and cut off 10 per cent., going down to £2OO salaries, deducting say 2J- per cent. He asked the Government not to add to the general distress by dismissing these men. They had all been equally culpable so far as he could see. They should give them fair warning, but should not push things to an extreme at present, and aggravate the general distress by throwing them out of employment altogether. That was his opinion, despite all that was suggested by the Civil Service Commission. He had hopes that when the provinces were abolished a national spirit would spring up. Par too much was expected at the hands of the Government. The children of the colony were nursed in a Government cradle, educated at the expense of the Government schools, supported and fostered in a Government office, and buried in a Government coffin.

The motion for adjournment was then put and carried, and at 10.20 the House adjourned.