GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume VI, Issue 668, 10 August 1876, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

(Per Frcss Agency.) HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, August 9. The House met at 2 30. QUESTIONS. The Native Minister, in reply to Mr Taiaroa regarding compensation for stone taken for erecting lighthouses and buildings at Otago Heads, said the report upon the matter bad not been received yet, but had been telegraphed for. Mr Gibbs asked the Defence Minister if he would inform the House what had been dona towards a modification of the restrictions on the sale of arms and ammunition, which it was promised last session the Government would consider, with a view to something being done. The Native Minister said Orders in Council were being prepared, that he thought would meet views of hon members on this matter. SEPARATION. Mr Reader Wood congratulated Ministers that they had at last entered the lists, having been unable to strangle the debate without the House being able to give the question a fair consideration. This debate and others that must follow upon constitutional mat ters must be regarded as the death knell of the constitution under which the country had thriven- under which the fern and tussock had given place to the corn field and meadow. Even now, although they had been two months in session, it was impossible for any one to say what machinery of G vemment would supersede the system swept avi ay. He looked upon the two Bills brou ht down by the Government a? wretched half measures, that failed to grasp the question they dealt with in any comprehensive manner. Indeed any Go vernment ought to be ashamed of them. They were mere temporary ex pedients that enabled colony to get along by the device of Treasury Bills, Oa the

contrary, the resolutions proposed were the only way out of the difficulty that beset the colony. They met the financial and constitutional difficulties in a statesmanlike manner. There were only two courses before them—that originally proposed by the member for the Waikato, or that proposed by Sir G, Grey, Any intermediate course could only be of a time serving character. The member for Waikato demonstrated that there would be no difficulty in framing Bills out of these resolutions, and he felt confident that the hon gentleman carried conviction with him, and in fact established an outwork that would be impregnable. He was surprised at the way in which the Hon C. 0. Bowen referred to the arguments of Mr Rees by calling them reckless accusations. The hon gentleman asked him to show that Mr Rees’s accusations did not deserve such an epithet. He would narrate the particulars regarding the case of Mr Roberts, Magistrate at Tauranga—[The Native Minister— lt is quite untruej—and who was removed to the desert of Taupo. It was the most foolish thing a Minister could do. And it would be impossible under the circumstances to make any one believe that the removal was made from pure motives. Then as to reckless finance. Mr Rees said the Premier altered the balance by a stroke of bis pen, and that last year’s financial statement was wrong. Well, was it not admitted that a balance had been altered, and that last year’s statement was wrong? The'Premier himself said that it was only natural his colleagues should have over-estimated the revenue. Did not the member for Akaroa over and over again point out that the estimates would never be realised ? After this he would ask did not Mr Rees’ statements demand an explanation ? In discussing the resolutions, the Minister of justice glided over No 1 without saying anything to it. Attacking No 2, he said it appeared as if the person who drew up that bad murder upon his soul. The third he could not comprehend in any way; he could not discover upon what basis it was framed. Well, it was not upon population or acres—it was simply upon this basis, that they could not pay more than £200,000. It must be under that, or else the arrangement could not be made. He next took exception to the fact that no provision had been made for local machinery of Government, but their answer to this was that each island was to manage its own affairs. A panegyric upon the Premier (which sent that gentleman asleep) was the conclusion of a speech that was to have demolished the common sense speech of the member for Waikato. There was nothing to reply to. The keenest sword was as nothing against a feather in the air, and the keenest logic could not reply to arguments that did not exist. There was much, however, in Mr Button’s speech he heartily agreed with. He said if people were in favor of the change he would not object to plebiscitum, and then he added it was only wanted by Auckland and Otago. Why they constituted half the colony, and they were for separation as one man, [Load ap. plause from Opposition, and ‘‘No, no" from the other side.] The Premier had asked, if you separate, and one of jou fail to meet your liabilities, what are you going to do ? why the same thing might be asked of colony now. Everything that belonged to the colony was secured by the public creditor —land, customs, and stamps. If the Government would admit their own measures were wrong; and they would accept those of the Opposition, then they would errry them through for them. Last year Government had an unwieldy majority, stroeg enough to keep them in power, but not strong enough to pass any of their measures, and the member for Hokitika had said if the head and tail were so dissatisfied it would be better to let them go. That was what they just wanted. Let them go. They had been asked why they did not bring down a vote of want of confidence. Well, the reason was they were afraid they would have carried it. Had they succeeded they might have been asked their policy, and a vote of want of confidence would have been followed by their defeat. And the same might happen to either successors, because there was a large section of the House that negatived everything and created nothing. It was for these reasons that they preferred to bring down their resolutions as they did, and get the whole ground carefully examined. It had been urged that pressure had compelled them to go into greater expenditure then they otherwise would, and that Mr Macandrew was largely responsible for that state of things. There was no foundation for such a statement, on the contrary it was known that the friends of the Government had over and over brgged Ministers not to rush off as they were going, but they had the bit between their teeth and pursued their reckless career, not knowing often whither they were going. The hon gentleman proceeded to criticise the Premier’s reply to Sir George Grey, in complaining of the bold and meagre nature of the proposals, saying that every single measure of importance ever introduced into the British Parliament had been brought in in the same meagre way, so as to allow the House to debate the principle. Take the case of their own House and the abolition resolutions of 1871. In that there were three resolutions, but the second and third were mere surplusage, having nothing to do with the first, and yet the Premier had the effrontery lo speak of the telegraphic brevity of Sir G. Grey’s resolutions. While agreeing in the main with Mr Whitaker’s exposition of their policy, he did not think the parly would be bound by his statements. With regard lo Lieutenant-Governors appointed by the Crown, he believed it would be preferable to have Presidents elected by the people. The Premier had by anticipation conjured up a landed estate for the North Island, Well, £200,000 had been spent oil that object, and £300,000 more at the back of it, and yet the land fund of the North Island was as bad as it was before. He wondered how either the North or South Island members could have ever been deluded in this manner. But the fact of it was the astute Premier pldycd one against the other. ' The hon member then analysed the ten years tables drawn up by the Premier, which waste have left il 6 colony after the expendi'ure often with a balance of £29,000. The money had been spent, and instead of profit there was a serious loss. In 1873 the members of that House paid little attention to financial matters Fortunately it was not so in the Upper House, and when the Colonial Secretary was challenged regarding the position he said that things were going on all tigh', and informed them that in 1877 they would have 750 miles of railway. What was the result ? why, they were indebted

eighteen and a half millions, and instead of three and a-half millions of debt and 750 miles of railway they had only 550. In 1873 he begged the House to pause, telling them that the Premier’s figures were calculations, and were delusive. It was useless ; they believed the Premier in preference to him. The hon gentleman gave figures to show the relative positions of the North and South under the new adjustment. The people of New Zealand had conflicting interests, which, together with their topographical and political situation, made centralisation or any strong nationality im possible. Could any particular place or centre in a country like that be called a capital ? How different was it with New South Wales and Victoria, and other countries. There Sydney and Melbourne were the natural centres—here we had a capital not made by nature, but by resolution of that House, but the title was defective, and hence the jealous fear of the people that they would lose it. But their resolutions were as parchment if they did not accord with the will of the people ; he wanted to know how they were going to impose laws for Otago and Auckland if the people would not have them. It could not be done unless, in some way, perhaps, as Spam governed the Netherlands, or England imposed a Government upon Ireland, contrary to the wishes of the people. He asked the House to leave them free to choose their own form of Government. In the course of his speech the hon gentleman gave the following figures as the calculation upon which the arrangement between North and South islandshad been made:—North Island, Customs revenue. £600,000 ; land fund, £130,000 ; total, £730,000 ; interest on colonial debt, £190.000 ; provincial debt, £67,000; total, £257,000, thus leaving a balance of £257,000 with which to carry on affairs. South Island—Customs revenue, £961,000 ; land fund, £799,000 ; total, £1,760,000. Interest on colonial debt, £625,000 ; provincial interest, £151,000 ; which taken from the revenue left a balance available of £994,000. Mr Stafford pointed out that until the member for Waikato gave them some outline they had nothing to go upon, and so elastic were the resolutions that had it not been for that explanation they might have been carried out in almost any direction. He regretted, however, that the explanation had not come as it ought to have come, from the member for the Thames, and it was due to the House, not they should come from him, though no doubt the relationship between the two hon gentlemen was so close it might almost lead them to accept the explanation as authoritative. When Mr Whitaker moved his resolutions Sir G. Grey said everyone had made up his mind how he would vote, and it was useless discussing the subject, but he might as well have said the same with regard to his own resolutions. He had been appealed to as a Canterbury members to vote for the resolutions, and before going further he would inform the House he refused to be regarded as a Canterbury member. He claimed to be a member for Timaru, and to have the right to view every question coming before that House from a colonial point of view, instead of as a Canterbury representative. Why, he had been elected by Timaru to represent them as against the injustice of the rest of Canter bury. He deprecated these territorial meetings they had seen that session, and though he had been induced to attend one of them he sincerely regretted it. He deeply regretted to see the members from Otago not taking that position whicn those members’ influence and intelligence gave them a right to take. If they chose there was nothing to prevent them taking a high colonial position instead of always endeavoring to segregate the province of Otago from the rest of the colony. He was very glad to hear the member for Waikato say he intended to bring forward again next year the question of land revenue being made colonial revenue, and he would promise him a larger number of votes than he had on last occasion. The member for the Waikato told them he had always been a separationist, but he had been long at the head of a Ministry without proposing separation, though he did do so in 1866, and was beaten by two to one, and ever since he had slept, politically speaking. He would tell the hon member now that he was well aware that his resolutions, lost the other day, were a fact—a real scheme —while those they were discussing were pure sham, because they broke down, when examined, in every detail. He warned the hon gentleman that under the proposed arrangement they would nqt get rid of their mutual liability, regarding their provincial debts that detail was to be determined yet. [Mr D. Reid — It has been determined —take them.] Why do you not make it appear so as not to mislead people? But there were other liabilities to he provided for, such as immigrants on their way out, railway plant ordered, shipping, and other charges ; not one of these things were ever thought of. The hon gentleman proceeded to show that various other financial obligations had not been considered or provided for in any way. It appeared to him that the accepting of these resolutions by the colony would bo like progressing with one hand tied up. Touching our relations with our public creditors, he would be prepared to go in a direction already suggested—that was, jn making the land fund of the colony show to a greater extent than it did here to form an asset of the colony. As to the content and happiness referred to by member for Waikato ks prevailing when the colony was governed as two provinces. If ever there were a people more likely than any other to leave all forms of Government alone it was the population of a colony. Bat what wi a the fact '? Why, reference to their library would show that the very greatest dissatisfaction prevailed against the ruling form of Government : and if that were the best form of Government that could br devised, why did ihe G vernor set to work and frame a constitution the very opposite to that under which they were said to derive so much happiness. The hon gentleman then proceeded to show that Mr vyhitaker’s comparison between the proposed’ federalism and that of Canada was wrong,' and that the machinery proposed in Ric'one case bore no earthly resemblance to jlie other, inasmuch as the Federal Pariia Inftnt of Canada dealt with no fewer than fvveiity-eight different subjects, and actutllj hduld put a stop to local works provided b was for the benefit of Canada as a whole Had Now Zealand a largo enough territory, he would be willing to accept for New Zealand a government the same as was given to the Dominion of Canada, but there was no ii<ce‘si f y for it. Ho disagreed with M> Wood’* argument that the topography of (j.ilony was against its unity, because tb ■ immense coast line of its hays and indenta-

tions actually facilitated communication between the people of the different parts of the colony. It was wrong for the member to speak as if the different parts of the colony bad power to govern themselves as they liked. They were a people who had always been under one system, and he hoped they always would, There was a foreign country that had not been cited as an illustration. Did they find any remnants of provincialism in Italy ? Did not the Italians of their own free-will form a Government which managed the affairs of Italy from one centre, and had begun to restore some of the ancient glories of Italy that had been utterly lost while they had been puny, | quarrelling, and inefficient states. The arrival of 5.30 interrupted the hon gentleman. Upon the House resuming at 7.30. Mr Stafford continued for an hour and a half. He did not agree with the member for Waikato that there was such a necessity for immediate change. Individually, he was satisfied to fall back upon the Abolition Act of last session. He twitted Sir George Grey with offering to spend money in defence of the old provinces last year, yet now he was anxious to destroy them. He would prefer absolute Colonial Separation to that, and then each country could work out its own destiny. Under the present proposal however, there must be an immediate difference over Customs. Where were the powers between each island to begin and where to end? There would be various differences between the two islands as to ocean postal services, andjtelegraphic.communication’with the other colonies would be affected. Besides, they had not provided for all the financial as between the one and the other. Neither was there any provision for liabilities in course of creation. The arrangements proposed would be nothing like sufficient to provide for immigration and public works, and harbors especially. These alone would absorb the whole of the imaginary balances. How were they going to define the different powers between the two Legislative Assemblies 1 What Auckland might consider absolute liberty would be considered slavery by Wellington, Marlborough, or the West Coast. It was very well to talk of the extravagance of the Ministry, but it was the demands of the people that caused that extravagauce. What had they seen in the past, but the extravagance of the provinces. If Auckland was not extravagant it was because she had not money to be so ; at the same time she had been notoriously guilty of great extravagance. She borrowed half a million for a railway between Onehunga and Mercer, which was never made. He was certain that under these proposals the large centres of population would dominate over the country. One error in the past was making the land fund arrangement of 1856 permanent. Another error was that the public works scheme had not made the land fund part of that policy, and that the provinces should cease from that time. He regarded Ipmself more as a member for the colony than as a Canterbury member. The relations of one part of the colony with the other parts of the colony made them so closely associated and so dependent upon each other that any segregation must bo regarded as a national calamity. Mr Stout supported the resolutions, and combatted the principal arguments of Mr Stafford and others opposed to the resolutions. Things had come to such a pass that a change was absolutely necessary. It was impossible they could put up any longer with a set of men at the head of the administration who had-so systematically broken all their pledges. He wondered how any body could support the present Premier, who retained power only by broken pledges, expenditure and promises that had never been, and would never be fulfilled, or a Ministry guilty of the grossest extravagance, and utter want of foresight in the administration of affairs. Ho assured the Ministry thatthe Otago people would not put up with being ruled from Wellington. They came of a race that would not stand it. Mr Eolleston made a discriminatory speech as to, the present position of affairs and the proposals of the Opposition, and announced that considering the wishes of his constituents, and the crude and unsatisfactory nature of the proposals of the member of the Thames, he could not support them, though strongly in favor of Provincial Government, He thought it \yould be advisable in order to allay the present dissatisfaction that the offices of Superintendent should be non-political, Mr Joyce, who followed, declared himself an ardent provincialist, and said though he was with those who were supporting these resolutions, ho would have preferred seeing a motion for repealing the Abolition resolutions of last session. He did not wish the public works stopped, nor believed it possible to do so, and believed they could be carried on twice as far without danger to our credit, so great were the resources of the colony. The debate was adjourned, on the motion of Mr Ballance, at 12.35.