GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 405, 29 September 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. [Bx Electric Telegraph ] {From a correspondent of the Press.) Monday, September 27. The House resumed at 7.30. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. Hon Major Atkinson moved that the House go into Committee of Supply. He did not know whether it was the intention of the Opposition to take the debate on the financial statement that night. The Government were quite ready to go on with it, but they understood that some of the members of the Opposition wished to take the debate on a subsequent occasion. If that were so Government were willing to agree. Government wished to go on with the Estimates, as it was getting late in the session. A discussion ensued as to what course should be pursued. Mr Murray asked whether there was any truth in the statement that Ministers did not intend to proceed with the Representation Bill till the end of the session. The Speaker ruled that the question could not be put without notice. Mr MURRAY then moved the Committee of Supply be postponed until the Representation Bill is brought down. The Speaker ruled that the Committee of Supply could not be indefinitely postponed. A long discussion ensued, and eventually

Mr Sheehan moved—“ That the measure promised by the Government for the amendment of the representation of the people in this House be forthwith brought down,” simply for the purpose of giving the Government an opportunity of answering the questions put. Sir D, McLean—l may state it is the intention of the Government, after the Abolition Bill has been read a third time, that no time shall be lost before the Representation Bill is brought down. Government are quite as anxious as any member that the Bill shall be brought down as early as possible, but the Abolition Bill has already taken up a great deal of time, and we wish to have that Bill finally disposed of, and we promise that when it has been finally disposed of, we shall lose no time in bringing the Representation Bill down. Mr Fitzheebert said the Bill was a very serious matter, and he could not conceive why it,should not have been brought down at an earlier period of the session. Nor could he see why the House should be kept from seeing the Bill till the very last moment. An hon member had made a distinct statement to the effect that he had been informed that it was the intention of the Government to hurry through the estimates before bringing down the Representation Bill, which would be at the end of the session. To that no satisfactory reply had been given ; but now another story was told to the House —viz, if they would do what was right and pass the Abolition Bill on its third reading, then they should be favoured with a sight of the Representation Bill. What was the reason of this ? Surely the longer a measure was before the House the better it would be understood, and this was an important measure, which should be understood. It seemed to him that Government were not treating the House with sufficient confidence, for a great many rumors were flying about with respect to the Bill, and theHouseought to know all about it. One rumor was this, that already the friends of the Government had had intimation of the places which were to be favored with new members or additional members. That was a very grave charge, but he would go further, and say that soundings had been already taken of the feelings of the people in those districts to be so favored. The conduct of Government gave a color to this statement, and they should at once bring down the Bill. At anyrate the House would not be baulked in its intention to enquire into the matter.

Hon C. C. Bowen said the whole discussion was attributable to the member for Bruce having been misinformed, and Government could not be held answerable for rumors in the lobbies. Government were really anxious to bring forward the Bill. Sir G. Gbey thought no satisfactory explanation had been made, Government

should have taken the country into its confidence six weeks ago. The country and the House had been very badly treated. Hon Major Atkinson said the Bill would be brought down in a couple of days. In answer to Mr G. McLean, it was stated by Hon Mr Reynolds that the debate on the Californian mail service would be taken on the Bill to validate the arrangement. The Hon Major Atkinson stated that in a few days he would make a statement as to the alterations in the Government scheme of finance by the amendments in the Abolition Bill. The statement would only be as to detail. It was decided to take the debate on the financial statement after the supplementary estimates. The Speaker, reverting to the word “ baulked ” used by the member for Hutt, said he thought the word had been applied to himself, and resented such a covert charge. Mr Fitzherbeet denied that it was so used. Sir D. McLean believed it had been levelled at the Government and not at the Speaker. The House then went into committee of supply. Legislative departments, £29,220. Mr Murray complained of the Legislative Council expenses being increased from £BSO to £I3OO. Mr Thomson moved—“ That the proposed increase of salary of £IOO to the chairman of committees be struck out.” Mr Wood was opposed to an increase in any salary in the present state of the affairs of the colony. The Treasurer and Sir D. Bell deprecated interference with the arrangements of the other Chamber. Mr Macandrew believed it was impossible for the committee to effect retrenchment. Government could knock £IOO,OOO off the estimates, but the labor of previous years showed nothing could be done by the committee. Mr O’CONOR supported the striking out of the increase, notwithstanding the remarks of the members for Mataura and Port Chalmers. That House was the guardian of the public purse. The analogies drawn by the hon member for Mataura between the practices of this Parliament and those of the Imperial Parliament did not apply. Mr Sheehan in discussing the question of salaries in its general aspect, said the cost of the attendance of every member of the House was nine times as much as the cost of a provincial councillor attending a session. Sir G. Grey be’ieved £IOO,OOO could be saved, and intended to try to do so. He also intended to introduce a Bill to take all the duties off flour, tea, sugar, and coffee, so as to provide what Mr Gladstone and other statesmen had called a free breakfast table. To provide for this, a reduction would have to be made in the salaries of the Governor, and of the Government, and all the civil servants downwards.

Mr Murray complained of the high salaries paid to civil servants. Mr T. L. Shepherd characterised the remarks about the civil servants as claptrap and spurious patriotism. Mr Cuthbertson said the assertions of the hon member for Bruce were wild and unfounded, and a gross misstatement of facts, .but were characteristic of that member, who consumed more time in absurd and useless motions than any other member. Mr Johnston commented on the fact that no reason had been given for the increase, for it was a question not of reduction of salary, but an increase where no extra services were to be given, and seeing that there was to be a decline instead of an increase in the revenue, he could not support the vote. Mr Rolleston supported the vote, considering the increase justified by the increase in the cost of living. He advocated a reform in the Civil Service, not in the way of a reduction of a £IOO here and there, but in a systematic weeding out of inefficient officers, Mr Ormond said the question of the civil service expenditure was a large one, and could only be satisfactorily dealt with by Government. This vote, however, had no connection with the civil service, and he should vote for the disallowance of an increase. The item was struck out. Legislative Council Clerk, additional salary, £100; struck out. Assistant-clerk’s increase of £IOO, struck out; second clerk assistant, £150; proposed to strike off £SO. Mr Bunny considered the House had made a great mistake in reducing these amounts. He wished the Government would lead the committee instead of sitting silently by. The Treasurer said the Government had taken up its position. The Speaker of the Council had recommended these salaries, and therefore Government submitted the amounts and supported them. He hoped the committee would, if possible, reconsider their decision, for it might lead to a complication between the Houses. The vote was passed. Interpreter £2OO, being an increase of £SO on last year’s salary. Mr O’ Conor moved the disallowance of the increase. The motion was negatived by 27 to 19. Under the head of Executive department —Confidential clerk to Treasury and secretary to the Premier, £4OO, Mr Reeves enquired if the officer alluded to (Mr Fox) was correctly described, and the Treasurer replied that he was, and that Mr Fox, on his return to the colony,, would resume his position as secretary to the Premier. In answer to another question, the Treasurer said Sir J Vogel was expected to leave England at the end of September or the beginning of October. The discussion then referred to Sir Julius Vogel’s going home last year, it being raised in that shape by Mr Rolleston who complained that the House had not been informed of the Premier’s intention to leave the colony. The Treasurer said that without expressing any opinion as to the past action of the Minister, he himself had no intention of going home, nor should be think of going home without first acquainting the House of his intention. [Hear, hear.] Sir G. Grey urged that some specific rule, relating to allowance of Ministers sent out of the colony for public business, should be laid down, The rule in all the other colonies of the empire as well as the empire itself was, that half salary shoald be drawn. Sir D. Bell hardly thought the member for Auckland West could have been aware of precedents in the colony. Mr Stafford, when he went to England in 1858, did not draw sals-j or pay of any kind. The member for

Hutt received a salary as Mimsrer am travelling expenses, bat it havii.g lav n foun. when he came out again that he had suffered pecuniary damage a sum of £3of 0 was paid to him to recoup him for his expenditure. When he and Dr Featherston went home as Commissioners they drew salaries and travelling allowances on the same scale as Sir J. Vogel has drawn. The Treasurer remarked that the rule was perfectly clear. Ministers when sent home drew full- salary, travelling allowances of four guineas per day, and actual travelling fares besides. Sir D. McLean reminded the House that Sir J. Vogel’s illness had in a measure resulted from overwork in the service of the colony—a circumstance that should secure for him the sympathy instead of the criticism of the committee. , Mr Thomson considered Sir Julius s illness resulted as much as anything from his absence from the colony. Hon Mr Reynolds explained that it was talked over two or three days before the close of last session that it would be desirable to send a Minister home. No decision was come to that Sir Julius should go home until about a fortnight after the session broke up. When it was found necessary that some one should go home; Sir Julius was thought by his colleagues to be the most suitable man to go. He did not think the House had any reason to complain of the action taken by the Government, as Sir Julius s going home had been of great service to the colony. Mr Rolleston pointed out that £6OOO drawn by Sir Julius Vogel was considerably in excess of his salary and usual travelling expenses. What fell from the Commissioner of Customs was scarcely in accordance with the tacit admission of Ministers; nor with the instructions to Mr Thomas Russell, to whom intimation was made some days before the last session broke up of the late Premier s intention to visit England, Mr Stafford, after explaining the circumstances under which he went home, he going in the main on private business, said that the visits to England of Messrs Fitzherbert, Bell, Featherston, &c, were entirely different. He said the information should have been given to the House last session of Sir J. Vogel’s probable intention to go to England. He did not believe Sir Julius wilfully intended to deceive the House, He next referred to the impropriety of Ministers, when visiting England, drawing lump sums, instead of drawing their salaries and allowances monthly. Those lumpsums should be accounted for. He considered the proposal to reduce the salaries and travelling expenses to one-half unfair and unjust, because Sir Julius, owing to illness, was unable to return to the colony immediately after his mission was completed, but there ought to be a definite limit, and Government ought to intimate to Sir Julius that his expenditure must be limited The Treasurer agreed with the member for Auckland West, that there should be some fixed rule in the matter, and custom had pretty well fixed what the amount ought to be. The extra sum drawn by Sir Julius must clearly be asked by special vote from the House, and there was no doubt full particulars of all the expenditure incurred by Sir Julius would have to be furnished. The £2OOO had been accounted for, but there had not been time to get particulars of the £4OOO, which was not drawn till the 31st of May. The Government had, however, telegraphed to Sir Julius, asking him to explain how he accounted for that money, in order to supply the House with information on the subject. When full particulars reached the Government, they would be laid on the table. The item was then passed, as did the item Stamps Department, wheu progress was reported, and at 1.5 a.m. the House adjourned.

{Per. Prrss Agency.') Tuesday, September 28. NOTICE, Sir G. Obey gave notice to ask leave to introduce a Bill to do away with the present duty on tea, sugar, coffee, and flour. LEAVE OP ABSENCE, Ten days’ leave of absence was granted to Messrs Stout and Wales. QUESTION, Mr Swanson asked when the telegraph line would be extended to Whangaroa. Mr Reynolds said the telegraphic vote had been already too much exceeded to justify Government in any more telegraph extension during the present year. In the Auckland province alone £30,500 were spent on telegraphic extension this year. Mr Swanson asked if Government intended to make Whangaroa a Resident Magistrate’s district. Hon C. C. Bowen said they could not give an immediate answer, but they would consider the matter and make careful inquiry to see how far they could concede what was asked. Mr Harrison asked if in regard to the supply of coal to the Luna, tenders were invited from any coal companies in New Zealand; Sir Donald M'LeAN said the practice was that when the Luna was at the Grey, Bay of Islands, or Waikato, coal was obtained on the spot. At a place like Wellington where there were no coal mines, tenders were called for. Mr Harrison reminded the Government that coal was put on board vessels at Grey for 15s or 16s per ton. Mr Harrison asked the reason for the the continued cessation of work on the Hochstetter water-race. The hon gentleman pointed out that a great deal of hardship was resulting from the cessation of the work. He thought Government ought to do something in the matter, as he believed they held a large amount as drawback in their hands. Hon B. Richardson said no doubt there had been some delay in proceeding with the work, which was solely due to the fact that the contractors became involved in monetary difficulties. At present negotiations were taking place between the contractors and the Government, and there was prospects of satisfactory arrangements being made in a few days, and the work proceeded with by the sureties for the contractors. Although Government held a drawback on the amount of contract, they did not feel justified in parting with that until they were satisfied the work would be carried out to a satisfactory completion. Mr Steward asked (1) Whether attention had been directed to the desirability of providing by legislation for cases of lunacy from excessive drinking b> a restriction of the opportunities for obtaining intoxicating liquor, and by providing for curative treatment of dipsomaniacs. (2.) Whether during the recess, Government will take the subject into consideration, with the view of the introduction of a measure dealing therewith at the next session of Parliament.

Hon C. O. Bowen said there was no doubt lorui'i lung would have to be done in the liivci ion indicated, and Government purposed to consider the matter carefully during the r< cess, to see what adequate provision could be made for the purpose. THE abolition bill, fonsideration of the report on the Abolition Bill was postponed till 7.30. ADJOURNED DEBATR ON QUALIFICATION OF ELECTORS BILL. Mr Sheehan opposed tae Bill because it interfered with the representation of miners and the repi escalation of the natives. He would rather see manhood suffrage pure and simple than this Bill. He would like to know whether this was a measure on which the Ministry were prepared to stand or fall. He considered this a volunteer reform, and on that account objectionable. It had not been asked for by any single constituency or public meeting throughout the colony. He moved that the Bill be read that day six months.

Mr Fyke regretted that the Bill was not considered purely on its merits, because it was not a Bill which was acceptable to all of the Government supporters. The only fault he saw in it was that it did not go far enough. He could not agree with those demands for property qualification. The Legis'ative Council was supposed to represent the interests of property, and the House of Representatives ought to represent manhood. He would like every male twenty-one years of age, not disqualified by crime or other disabilities, should have a vote in the representation of the country. There was no truth in the statement that the Bill interfered with the miners’ franchise. The miners did not think so ; they would prefer being placed upon the ordinary footing. Theyiwould rather have themselves registered as other people were. They did not want the double privilege which they might now avail themselves of under certain circumstances. He looked upon registration as the great safeguard of elections. It was most reprehensible to allow such a large body of voters as goldminers were to be able to vote without registration. A few amendments ought to make the Bill do very well. The eighth section he would strike out altogether. The only arguments adduced against the Bill were aimed really more at Government than at the Bill. He hoped members would throw aside all party feeling on this measure, and make it as good as they possibly could. Mr J. B. Brown objected to being hoodwinked. The Bill sought to accomplish by a sidewind that which was wrong in principle. Ho would support the amendment of the member for Rodney ; if the second reading were passed he would in committee go further than any of them who desired universal suffrage, and move that the word male be struck out, and to substitute in its place every man, woman, and child. That would be the the only way to check such a strike towards mobocracy, Mr Rolleston would propose an amendment on the last clause, which would make the Bill have general application. If in order he would move that on and after the 10th of October, 1877, the qualification provided in this Act shall enable the Maori inhabitants of New Zealand to vote for members of the General Assembly, in accordance with the provisions of this Act, and from and after that date the provisions of the Maori Representation Act, 1867, and any other Amending Act shall have no force or continuance. Notice of moving this amendment was accordingly given. He felt confident that some such amendment would have to be made sooner or later. Messrs PARATA and Katene opposed the Bill, on account of the way it affected Maori representation. Sir G. Grey considered the Bill very imperfect, and should therefore not be placed on the statute book. It placed, for instance, naturalised subjects and natural born subjects on the same footing—a practice which was most unusual. He also opposed the Bill as an uncalled for disfranchisement of the miners, and a great injustice to the native race, by the complete infraction of their privileges. He would vote against the second reading. Mr Williams would vote against the Bill, and if it went into committee he would vote for the amendment of the member for Avon. Mi T. L. Shepherd considered the Bill a mere sham. Under the guise of liberality, it was most illiberal to miners in taking away privileges at all. They never asked for or desired such interference, and any mining representative who supported such a Bill would be a traitor. He believed the only people really interested in this Bill were candidates who owed their defeats to the votes of the miners. The hon gentleman went on to argue that, considering the amount contributed to the revenue of the colony (£83,543) by miners, their miners’ rights were, properly speaking, a property qualification, and gave them far more title to an elector’s qualification than the young men—the lodgers of the colony. He would support the amendment. Mr TAKAMOANA opposed the Bill. He wished the portion relating to the Maoris withdrawn. They ought to introduce a Bill giving the Maories increased representation in the House. Mr Wakefield said the Bill aimed at a great deal, but effected very little. It was very desirable that intelligent lodgers should have a share in the franchise. There were many who resided in lodgings from year to year because it suited them, who were more intelligent than many householders and leaseholders ; but he did not see that this Bill granted to a large portion of the lodger class the privilege it was supposed to do. The most energetic and enterprising of the laboring and mechanical class moved about a great deal in quest of where they could command the highest wages, and these men would be entirely disqualified. Nothing had ever been seen'to show that the miners were unworthy of their franchise. Their representatives in that House compared very well with other representatives, and the miners were not known to be ever marched in droves to the polling booth to vote for this or that candidate. Then why disfranchise them in this way. He hoped the Bill would be withdrawn, _ Mr Pearce would support the Bill, chiefly because it would extend the franchise to that large and intelligent body of men who lived in lodgings, such as clerks and tradesmen of all kinds, who took a deep interest in the politics of the country. It was said the Bill was not asked for, but two years ago he presented a petition on behalf of that very class. He hoped the registration and the twelve months’ residence clause would be secured. Mr Montgomery hoped the Government would give a distinct assurance that the

twelve months’ residence clause would be retained in the Bill. Mr O’Conor opposed the Bill. Why should a person be compelled to be resident twelve months in one place? This was calculated to throw a preponderance of power into the hands of towns at the expense of pioneer miners who were engaged in out districts opening the country. The whole basis of the electoral rolls should be changed. It should be made simple and universal. They should take the rate-roll of each district and register at the post office. If a proposal for universal suffrage were brought down, he would support it. This was a disfranchisement of the miners. [“No, no,” from Mr Harrison and Mr Tribe.J Their constituents would not say so. For an offence committed in one little district, the whole body of miners was to be disfranchised, because compelling minors to register was almost as bad as direct disfranchisement, because it would in the majority of cases be a very great inconvenience to that class. He hoped Government would abandon this Bill, and introduce one conferring lodging franchise alone, without dealing with miners or Maoris.

Mr May objected to miners having special advantages over every other class, and he would support the Bill, because of its provisions regarding miners and lodgers. Mr Tribe welcomed the Bill as a step towards simplifying the suffrage, and would give it more hearty support if it went further. His experience in Britain and the British colonies'had shown him that there was no reason to dread manhood or extended suffrage. He might say that nearly every reform of any note upon the English statute book had been obtained solely through extended suffrage, and had been resisted by those who supported restricted suffrage. Take as an instance the much-reviled Chartists and their six points, every one of which had since become law.

Mr White announced that he would be compelled to give the Bill a steady, sturdy, and determined opposition. He was in favor of manhood suffrage, but the hon member who had taken the franchise under his protecting wings must not think his Bill provided manhood suffrage. The hon gentleman was cut short in his remarks by the 5.30 adjournment. ABOLITION BILL. On the House meeting at 7.30, and on the Hon Major Atkinson moving the new clause of which he had given notice, Sir G. Grey alleged it was an infraction of the agreement come to, and with the view of consulting with his party, he moved an adjournment, failing which he moved that the whole Bill should be recommitted, which the Government stoutly objected to. The discussion was still proceeding when the telegraph office closed last night.

(From a correspondent ef the Press.) The following are the new clauses : —Hon Major Atkinson to move the recommittal of the Abolition of Provinces Bill, with the view of inserting the following amendments : —To add a new clause, to stand as section 27—“ Until the day next after the last day of the first session of next or sixth Parliament of New Zealand, all powers, duties, and functions which immediately before the passing of this Act were under or by virtue of any law vested in or to be exercised or performed by the Superintendent of any province on the recommendation or resolution of the Provincial Council of such province under any law or Ordinance for the time being in force shall be exercised by the Superintendent with the consent of the Governor in Council; clause 27 to stand as 28, and the words “ and twenty-seven” to be inserted after “ twenty-six” in line 53. Mr T. L. Shepherd to move on the recommittal of the Abolition of Provinces Bill, the following new clause—“ No person holding office in any department of the civil service of any Provincial Government who may enter into or be transferred to the civil service of the Government of the colony after the coming into operation of this Act shall be entitled to any superannuation or retiring allowance under the Civil Service Act, 1866, or under any Act amending the same. It is proposed by Mr Reid to amend the 3rd section of the Act of 1874, so that in any factory or place where power looms are tended by females, the provision of that section shall not preclude females from being engaged after five o’clock, provided that no female shall be employed more than eight hours during any day of twenty-four hours. To-morrow, the Hon C. C. Bowen will ask leave to introduce the Representation Bill. The Bill will merely remove some existing inequalities in the representation. The matter will not be dealt with comprehensively until next session. The Representation Bill is to be brought down to-morrow.

The Torres Straits mail line intends to submit an offer to run their boats between Brisbane and Auckland, and down the Coast to Port Chalmers. The Ministers here reply that they are willing to entertain that question, but even with a higher spe«d New Zealand can gain no advantage from it as a postal line. The Government promise to take into consideration next session the desirability of providing by legislation for cases of lunacy from excessive drinking, by restricting the opportunities for obtaining liquor, and for providing for curative treatment of dipsomaniacs.