GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 348, 24 July 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. [By Electric Telegraph.] {From a correspondent of the Press.) Wellington, July 23. PETITION. Mr Williams piesented a petition largely signed praying the Assembly not to agree to the recommendation of the Auckland Provincial Council to impose a tax on kauri gum. questions. In answer to Mr Wakefield's question whether the statement in the Tribune of the 21st inst as to the details of the Bill to be submitted to the General Assembly for tl e abolition of Provincial Governments is in any way authorised by Ministers, namely, " one of the first clauses of the Abolition Bill will name the provinces in which provincial institutions shall be abolished, at a date to be fixed by the Governor's proclamamation, and in this clause it will be found that the name of no province, either North or South, is omitted,"

Sir Donald McLean said the statement was not made by the authority of the Government.

In answer to Mr "Vincent Pyke, who asked—lst, what was the amount of money at present lying in the Bank of New Zealand and its agencies to the credit of the Government; 2nd, what rate of interest is being paid by the Bank thereupon, Major Atkinson said immediately after the House came to a decision on the address in reply the Government were prepared to come down with the financial statement, when he would give tne fullest information on the subject.

Mr Pyke accordingly postponed the ques tion for a week.

In answr to Mr O'Neill, Mr Hichakdson said no further action had bee taken in reference to the formation of railways between the Waikato and the Thames.

Mr McLean, without notice, asked if the agreement with the Bank of New Zealand, set out in page 25 of the loan negotiations, was the agreement in force, and if the Government would supply the deficiency in agreement, namely, at how many days' sight and at what rates Government drafts in England were purchased. Major Atkinson—lf the hon member will put his question in writing, he will get a plain answer. Mr McLean said he would do so tomorrow. STAMP DUTIES AMENDMENT. Hon C. C. Bowen obtained leave to introduce on Tuesday a Stamp Duties Amendment Bill. ADDRESS IN REPLY. In resuming the debate in reply to the address, Mr Murray (Bruce) complained of the inefficiency of the railways. Our lines charged for freight 4Jd to 6d per mile, against ljd on the English lines. The carrying capacity of the English lines was 500 tons per train, against seventy or eighty tons on the New Zealand lines. He was informed by the Superintendent of Otago, no mean authority, that while on the Port Chalmers line, which was an inferior class of line, The engines had a carrying capacity of 250 tons per train, on the Green Island section of the Southern trunk line, the same engines had only a carrying capacity of eighty tons'. He referred to the loan negotiations as a grave scandal. The Crown Agents, in their anxiety to serve the country, had endeavored to prevent what people supposed to have been a job. The real net results of the loan were 88 or 89. He was forced to the conclusion either that the loan had been grossly mismanaged, or that the colony's security was vastly depreciated. The latter should not have resulted, seeing the great success which had attended the policy of the colony. He was prepared to support the simplification of Government, and reducing the enormous expenditure of Government, but whileopposed to provincialism he was equally opposed to centralism. If, when brought forward, the measures met his views, he would give them his support, but a march should not be stolen on the people. If the Government would engage not to press the measures to a final stage this session, he would give them all the support he could. [Laughter.] That was the only constitutional course to be adopted. Mr McGilliveay urged the adoption of the address, in order that they might immediately proceed to the consideration of the constitutional question.

Mr Thomson deemed that the address committed him to any expression of opinion. He had not had time to consider the loan papers, but a perusal of them left an uneasy impression on his mind. Referring to the native question, he said the Native Minister should furnish the House with a statement of native affairs. There were abroad very ugly rumors, to say the least of them, respecting the buying of native lauds, and leasing native lands to certain Europeans The sooner the Native Minister disabused the public mind on those points the better. [Sir George Grey : " Hear, hear."J No doubt these rumors were greatly exaggerated.

Mr McLean complained of the Government not having taken the House into its confidence last sesaion re Sir Julius Vogel going home, and of Major Atkinson joining, both of which must have been known to them before the prorogation. He complained of the Hon C. C. Bowen's appointment as wrong in principle. No one should go on the Ministerial benches unless he had some experience in the House, and was known to the House and country, which was not the case with that gentleman. On the constitutional question he was not at one with Ministers. To him it mattered not what the Bill was. It should be considered by the constituencies, who ought to have an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon the question. [Opposition cheers.] Why did not the Government put up a new member to move the reply ? Why, because the members returned during the recess held opinions which did not agree with the Government's on this point. When the House went to the country they might find the country not with the Government on the matter. [Opposition cheers.] He hoped the Government would stick to their programme, and that there would be no surprises like those of last session. Mr Williams intended to vote for the address. Last session he was in the minority on the abolition question, because the resolutions did not go far enough. Abolition should extend to the whole colony, and it was very likely when the question came to be considered he would be found voting for the colony. [Ministerial cheers] Mr Pyice said he was justified in voting for the address, because be considered it not in any degree binding. Not wishing to be misconstrued, he intended saying a few words on two or three points. No man in the House was a more decided abolitionist than himself. For thirteen years he had publicly manifested the opinion that Provincial Governments were a curse and a nuisance to the country—[hear, hear]—and he would not be false to his colors now. Separation when proposed involved—so far, at all events, as the Middle Island was concerned—the abolition of the provinces. That was the main consideration which induced persons to support separation. So far back as 1863 Reparation was connected with abolition. In 1867 he carried his convictions so far as to resign his place and appointment under the Provincial Government. The expression in the address at once to carry out abolition raised grievous doubts in his mind as to the intentions of the Governmei t. If that meant an invitation in the present session to abolish provincial institutions, there was no more uncompromising opponent to such proposal than himself; It was not a question for a mori-

bnnd Parliament in its last dying hourp, but for the people.* He was not prepared to accept abolition unless he was sure of getting genuine local self-government in its place. Therefore it came to this issue : if the matter was forced to a determination this session, he would be compelled to go into the ranks of the provincialists, though he had not a single feeling in common with them. He was far from satisfied with the progress of public works, either, as to their quantity or quality. He doubted very much that when they came to be tested, the works would be found exceedingly inferior in quality. Experience had showed him that the San Francisco service was of no practicable use to the colony. He read from Harper's Weekly of January last, wherein the Pacific Company was strongly denounced, and urged extreme care. He had read the loan correspondence with amusement. He considered that the loan was negotiated on the most favorable terms possible under the circumstances, but the Government should have been more discreet, and not allowed the papers to be laid on the table. The recriminations between Sir Julius Vogel and the Crown Agents wern not creditable to either, and certainly reflected no credit on the colony.

Mr Bunny said no form of Government was a curse so long as the people were its foundation. The administration of the public works was grossly bad, and if continued, the policy, instead of indicating wisdom, would show insanity, and unless there was a great reform, the colony would be brought to serious grief. He referred to the Hutt Railway as an expensive toy, and attacked the stoppage of the Wellington capitation allowance. The maladministration of the General Government was causing yearly a loss of £IOOO to £ISOO owing to Mr Passmore's management, yet the colony was importing a shipload like him of sucking engineers and station masters to educate them up to their particular duties. [Hon Mr Richardson: "No."] Take any part of the colony where Mr Passmore had exhibited his performances, and everyone knew his unfitness for the position. He hoped the House would institute a thorough and searching investigation connected with the expenditure of the half million voted for the purchase of native land, Regarding the negotiations, he agreed with Mr Pyke that the Government would exercised a wise discretion by abstaining from laying on the table a great many of the letters. A Government worthy of the name should have thrown on the House the responsibility of producing such letters calculated to injure the credit of the colony. Several letters would have been much better unwritten, but having been written much better not published. He thought that to vote for the constitutional changes this session was to deprive the people of their rights, and unless the people were desirous of the measures, they should be fairly discussed, first by the House, and then by the people, and if the elections showed that the people were in favor of abolition he would not say "No ;" but they should not hoodwink the people with the promise of substantial revenues, if the object of the General Government was to get possession of the funds hitherto spent in making roads, bridges, and to turn them into another channel, to carry on the public works policy. Better do without railways. Any simple system of Road Boards would be an utter failure. He was totally opposed to passing any changes this session.

Mr Reynolds contended that it was waste of time to refuse to pass the address without further debate, as the reply did not commit members to any particular line of policy.

Mr Montgomery said the last declaration got rid any necessity for amendment to the address. As to the railways, he heard a great many lines had not been made within anything like the expected time. The • Northern line was not being worked so as to give satisfaction to the people. No doubt the Minister for Public Works would give explanations at the proper time. He had carefully gone over the loan papers, and regretted that portions of them had ever came into existence. He deplored the want of official reticence in undertaking such a large financial operation. They had the three Crown Loan Agents stating that the Treasurer said before a third party, a stranger—" Money must be got, as the colony was in a mess." [Cheers from Ministerial benches.] That is denied. Three tried gentlemen of hitherto uuimpeachable veracity and high position say so, and it was denied in a letter of very great ability by Sir Julius Vogel. Therefore distinctly the question of veracity was unfortunate for the colony, and it was deplorable that this question was ever entered into. With regard to how the loan was raised, he thought, after reading the papers, that the Treasurer showed great capacity, and actually got the loan on most favorable terms. The evidence in the letters showed that the success of raising the loan was in a great measure, though not wholly, due to him. He would render that justice to the Treasurer which he did on all occasions, for his great services to the colony ; but it was somewhat strange that one of his great capacity and ability had so far lowered himself as to give utterance to such a statement as that the colony was in a mess. The correspondence was in the Treasurer's favor. Referring to abolition, he would like to know where the substantial revenues were to come from. He cared not how good the Bill was ; he hoped it would not pass without reference to the people. He agreed that if there was to be abolition at all it must be whole, and not partial. Since the provinces were a check ou the central Government, he hoped the General Government, if provincialism were done away with, would take care to make a change in the constitution of the Upper House in the direction of making it electoral. He hoped no impatience would be shown to curtail the session, because the public works administration and the financial position of the colony should be most closely scrutinised this session, Mr McGlashan urged the adjournment till Tuesday. He advocated immediate abolition. If that were done, instead of having nasty, dirty little Parliaments they would have local selfgo-ernment throughout tin land. Mr Ward, after the intimation from the Ministers, had no hesitation in noting for the address. He was at a loss to know whither they were tending. Mr Wales thought that even if there was only a small minority against it, the Government should let the matter go to the country. Mr Brandon opposed the San Francisco service. He considered the loan negotiations decidedly unsatisfactory and the proposal to do away with provincialism mischievous. Mr JD'ignan next spoke,

{Press Telegraph Agency.) Wellington, July 24. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. yesterday. Sir George Grey rose amidst enthusiastic cheering, and addressed the House in a long and fervid speech, demanding as a right that they should have time to consider the newconstitution proposed by the Government. He denied that the Government was representative of the people and of the colony, and he challenged it to commit so flagrant and monstrous an injustice at a time when the representation of country was so unequal, and the Ministry so anomalously composed; with their Premier in the Upper House the only representation of their absent Premier ; with the member for Timaru, taking such an attitude as suggested the probability of his occupying the Government benches soon, though he confessed he would rejoice at that. The position 0 f the hon gentleman from Kaiapoi absolutely shocked him, neither was the Colonial Treasurer a true representative in the strict sense of the word. They had representatives at home, but he was of opinion from what he could learn that the interest of a certain banking institution would better be looked after there than the interest of the colony. The Government with its majority might force their measure upon them but he for one would never assent to it, he would resist it to the death, and in defence of those rights entrusted him as Superintendent. He would appeal to our highest court, and failing there, would appeal to the Imperial Court. Already he had a high legal opinion in his favor. He maintained that the Act under which they were acting was a piece of legislation passed in a most unseemly hurry. He only asked for a few months' delay, and he appealed to each individual Minister to raise no barrier to so just a request.

The Native Minister replied in a short but very decided speech. He said that it was idle saying that the people should be appealed to. Since 1868 the people wanted the provinces abolished. The Government, after mature consideration, had decided to introduce legislative measures to increase the welfare of the people, and were determined to carry them through, notwithstanding what the Opposition might. say. The subjects could be best discussed after they were submitted. As the representatives of the people they were justified in introducing measures for the public good. Mr Stafford made an eloquent speech, replying to all the points urged by Sir George, and maintaining that the action of the Government was an absolute necessity as well as strictly constitutional. He twitted Sir George with having shewn an entire want of consideration for the rights and liberties of those people for whom he was now the pro T fessed champion. He never thought of consulting the wishes of the people when he was in opposition to the Constitutional Reform Association of Wellington, and when in his own cottage without any outside assistance he autocratically devised a constitution for them, and parcelled the country off so as to place the whole of the out districts at the mercy of six small fishing villages, entirely ignoring Taranaki and Hawkes Bay. Some thirty years ago Otago was - peopled by 2800 inhabitants, and to these he surrendered the greater part of the South Island, no doubt mainly through his deficiency of knowledge of the country. As for the hon gentlemen appealing to the Imperial Parliament, that would be futile, for what was Representative Government given us for. He concluded by asking the hon gentleman to wait a few days until the Government had clearly expressed their views.

Mr Fitzherbert supported the views of Sir George Grey.

The Hon Mr Bowen defended the action of the Ministry, and said regarding the declaration of Mr Stafford as to loyally supporting the Ministry, that when it was made it was as great surprise to the Ministry as to the House.

After some remarks from Mr Rolleston against the adoption, and from Mr Wakefield in its favour, the Address was agreed to on the voices.

The Native Minister then announced that the financial statement would be made, and Ministerial measures be brought down, next week, and a particular day for this purpose would be named on Tuesday. The House adjourned at 11.30.