PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Globe, Volume I, Issue 15, 17 June 1874, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

* Tuesday, June 16. The Speaker took the chair at 5 p.m. PETITIONS, Mr Webb presented a petition from the Mayor and councillors and 232 inhabitants of Lyttelton, praying for hospital accommodation in that town. Read and received. Dr Turnbull presented a petition signed by nearly 500 inhabitants of Christchurch and its neighborhood, praying that the Government would not remove the present passenger station at Christchurch, unless to a more central position in the city. Head and received. PAPERS. Mr Jollie laid certain papers and reports on the table. LITTLE RIVER DISTRICT. Mr Potts asked if the Government allow timber to be cut, carried away and sold, from the railway reserve in the Little River district ; if so, on what conditions is this privilege granted ? Mr Maude said that he could not find that Government had given permission to cut timber, beyond what was to be found in White's Ordinance for the formation of a tramway. There was much complication about this matter which required enquiry, and which the Government would take care was instituted. LAKE FORSYTH CULVERT. Mr Potts asked if the Government will lay on the table the special report of the Provincial Engineer on the Lake Forsyth culvert 7 Mr Maude said that he would lay the return on the table to-morrow night. PLACES OP PUBLIC WORSHIP. Hon Mr Buckley moved —“ That in the opinion of this Council it is desirable that where sections of land in Government townships are purchased by the various denominations for the erection of places of public worship, the amount of purchase-money should be refunded on the buildings being completed.'* After a slight discussion, Mr Kennaway moved as an amendment, to strike out the words “in Government townships,” and to add the words “ provided that the amount so refunded does not exceed £25 in each case.” Hon Mr Buckley expressed his willingness to accept the amendment. The amendment to strike out was agreed to. Mr Parker moved— <( That after the word ‘ purchased’ the words ‘ from the Grown’ be inserted.” This amendment was negatived. In reply to Mr Maskell, Hon Mr Buckley said that he intended the resolution to be retrospective in its operation. Mr Kennaway was opposed to the resolution being retrospective, and contended that it was for the Council to deal with matters before them, and not legislate retrospectively. Hon Mr Buckley asked leave to withdraw the resolution, stating that he intended to bring it forward again in a more complete form. Mr Andrews. — No. Mr Kennaway moved to insert after the word “ worship ” the words “ outside the City of Christchurch.” The amendment was negatived. The matter was disposed of on the previous question, moved by Mr Harper. PROVINCIAL ELECTORAL DISTRICTS. Mr Kennaway did not move the following—“ That in the opinion of this Council, it is desirable that the boundaries of the Provincial Electoral Districts should be made coterminus with the boundaries of the Road Districts.” LAND BOUGHT BY RUNHOLDERS. Mr Gray did not move the following resolution —“That a return be laid on the table showing the aggregate amount of land bought by runholders since Jan Ist, 1870 ; and a return of land alienated in the form of reserves.” BRIDGE OVER THE NORTH ASHBURTON. Mr Walker did not move the following —“A respectful address to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to place on the Supplementary Estimates the sum of £5500 to erect a bridge over the North Ashburton.” SUPREME COURT. Dr Turnbull moved —“That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the Supplementary Estimates a sufficient sum of money for the purpose of constructing a cupola in the Supreme Court, and otherwise improving the acoustic properties of the Court.” Mr Maude said that the architect had informed him that he was about to make provision for doing away with the inconveniences complained of. The Government were not opposed to the motion, provided it was understood that the work proposed by the hon. member should not be carried out if the architect’s plan proved to be successful. Ha moved the insertion of the words “or otherwise” after the word “ cupola.”

The amendment was negatived. Sir Cracropt Wilson pointed out the necessity of improving the acoustic properties of the Chamber as well as of the Supreme Court. Mr J >ynt bore testimony to the difficulty )f hearing in the Supreme Court. Mr Jebson coincided with the remarks made by Sir Cracroft Wilson. Mr Maude moved an amendment so as to make the resolution read “ for the purpose of improving the acoustic properties of the Supreme Court.” The amendment was agreed to, and the resolution as amended was also agreed to. BRIDGE OVER THE UPPER RAKAIA FERRY. Mr White moved that the House go into committee to consider the following resolution :—“ A respectful address to his Honor the Superintendent requesting him to place on the supplementary estimates the sum of £ to erect a bridge over the Rakaia at the Upper Perry.” Mr Jollie opposed the House going into committee, because in framing the supplementary estimates he thought that other works were more urgently required than the bridge alluded to by the hon member, which would cost £15,000, and over which there would not be a great deal of traffic, Mr Maude asked the hon member to withdraw the resolution, on the understanding that the Government would get such information as would enable them to consider the matter. Mr White, by leave, withdrew the motion. PERMANENT SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OP EDUCATION. Hon Mr Buckley moved that the House go into committee to consider the following resolution :—“ That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place upon the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £450 to provide for the Appointment of a permanent secretary for education.” Mr Kennaway seconded the motion pro forma. Mr Montgomery said that the Government would support the motion on the understanding that it be brought into effect when the services of a perfectly competent gentleman could be secured; such secretary to be appointed after consultation with the Board of Education. At this stage the House adjourned for half an hour. On resuming, Mr Jebson said he intended to' move an amendment that the words “ Permanent Secretary for Education” be struck out, with a view of inserting the words “ Minister for Education.” The Speaker —The hon member will not be in order to move any amendment. The question before the Council is that I do now leave the chair. Mr Jebson would then speak to the resolution. He could not at all see that the interests of education or those of the province at large would be served by the appointment of a Permanent Secretary for Education, owing to the only time for the chairmen of school-committees in the country to meet the Board being on Mondays after three o’clock ; the country committees had no chance of bringing the various matters of interest belonging to their schools before the Board, which was a very great evil. No doubt the Board were industrious, {but still this evil militated much against their successfully carrying out the practical working of the scheme of education. Now he (Mr Jebson) contended that, by the appointment of a responsible Minister of Education, this evil would be removed, as the minister could be seen every day. Therefore, he contended that it would be better to appoint a minister rather than a secretary. If they appointed the latter officer, he would not be able to take any steps of importance without consulting the Board of Education. It seemed to him that they were not dealing with the great subject of education in a proper manner ; their administration was a series of expedients—in fact, the Board of Education itself was an expedient, and one the result of which was exceedingly delusive as to its results. He, therefore, hoped that instead of temporary measures the House would agree to the only course which would cure the evils complained of, viz., the appointment of a responsible Minister ■of Education, instead of as proposed by the resolution —a secretary of education. Mr W. B. Tosswill would like to hear from the hon member fbr Wajmate whether it was intended that the secretary for education should be subject to the Board, or whether it was intended that he should occupy the position of head of the educational system. He thought this should be clearly defined, and hoped the hon member would speak to it in his reply. He quite agreed with what had been said as to the undesirability of the Minister of Education going out with every political change of the Government, but he thought it would be possible to have a Minister for Education who should not go out with a change of Government, but who should retain his seat until the House expressed their disapproval of the policy pursued by him as regarded educalon. This was he knew altogether a new theory here, but still it had been tried elsewhere with success. He could not vote for the resolution as now proposed, because the secretary might either be the obedient humble servant of the Board, or the Board would have to take up the position of a mere Board of Advice to the secretary for education. Therefore it was that he could not see his way clear to vote for the resolution. Mr Dixon thought it would be better not to pass the motion brought forward by the hon member for Waimate, as it would be better to allow of a more perfect scheme being brought down, and one on which the public would have an opportunity of expressing their opinion. Mr J. N. Tosswill said he had thought the matter over, but it seemed to him that a collision between the secretary and the Board was an imminent danger, and the result would be that the secretary would have to resign, or sink into a mere official. In the latter case the salary proposed—£6oo per annum —was too much. What he conceived was, the remedy for the evils spoken of was to allow, if the chairman of the Board, who was really the responsible party, to have more time to devote to conferring with the chairmen of country school committees ; more particularly on Saturdays, when he would be in a position, from the knowledge thus gained, to afford valuable advice to the Board as to the manner of dealing with the various subjects coming before it. Holding these views, he could not support the resolution. It was very well as far as it went, which was simply that there should be a secretary of education, with a good salary, subject to the orders of the Board of Education.

Mr Kennaway said that he should have liked to have seen the matter stand over until next session after the discussion on the motion of the hon member for Lincoln (Mr J. N. Tosswill.) There were a great many objections to the resolution now before the House, one of which, and the principal one, was that it tended to lessen rather than define, the responsibility of those charged with the administration of the Ordinance, as well as that of the Council. The Board might make the permanent secretary a sort of scapegoat, and the result would be somewhatas had been pointed out by the hon member for Lincoln (Mr J. N. Tosswill). As regarded the appointment of a responsible Minister for Education, though it was in force in England and Australia, it was not time for it here. They would have to alter the whole of their system as at present in force ; for if they had a responsible Minister, they would not require a Board. (Hear, hear.) And then there would be alterations in the relations between the chairmen of district school committees and the head of the department. Well, was any hon. member prepared to say what the alteration should be, or was any one prepared with any other scheme. He thought not. Therefore he took it that to take a step backward and appoint a secretary for education, or a very great leap forward and appoint a minister for education was not advisable. Therefore bethought it would be better to allow of the present system working out a little more, it was yet only in its infancy, and allow of any alterations in their present working standing over for at least this session. He should not oppose going into committee, as possibly the free discussion would bring out some useful bints. Mr H. R. Webb could not support the resolution, because he thought no practical good would result from it. [Hear, hear.] If a school committee wanted the expenditure of £IOO on school buildings, the secretary, though perhaps in favor of it personally, would have to consult the Board on the matter. (Hear, hear.] Mr Andrews would support the resolution, as he took it that the secretary would would occupy the same position as the chairman now did, and discharge the duties now taken by that gentleman. As regarded what had fallen from the hon member for Lyttelton, respecting the secretary being unable to tell thorn at once whether they could have a sum of money ; could the chairman tell them any more? He could simply say that he would recommend the matter to the Board. He should support the resolution, Mr Knight said he thought the arguments of the hon member who had just sat down had proved most conclusively that the Council should not pass the vote. If they appointed a secretary for education, they would have the Board and the secretary clashing, and one or other would have to give way. If the Board did so, they would not be fit to sit on their chairs, while if the secretary did so. they would have him resigning. If they went into committee he hoped an amendment would be carried'to have a responsible Minister for Education sitting on the Government benches. It was not necessary that the person who brought the business before the Board should be a permanent officer. The chairman now was elected every year, and it was just as well. If they appointed a permanent officer, it was likely that before long he would become lax in the discharge of his duties, and they all knew the proof of the proverb that a new broom swept clean. The fact was that the work of the education department was becoming more and more routine every day, and if they appointed a permanent secretary for education, they ought to have a permanent secretary for public works. He therefore hoped that in committee an alteration would be made, so as to have a Minister for Education on the Government benches. Mr Paeker would support the resolution. The system there proposed was one which was carried out with success in the great mercantile and other concerns of the world. As regarded the appointment of a Minister for Education, he could not at all see that this would be at all an advisable plan. Of course the Government would select a gentleman whose views on other subjects accorded with their own, and perhaps the very gentleman who would be the fittest for the post would be omitted on account of his political views. There he held it would be far better to have a paid secretary appointed who would be free from political views. Dr Ratnbr quite agreed with what had fallen from the hon member who had just sat down It seemed to him that to appoint a fixed secretary would be the only way to get out of the difficulty, as the appointment of a Minister for Education would only complicate matters. [Hear, hear.] Mr Wynn Williams said he thought it would be better to have commissioners to carry out the Education Ordinance, instead of the elected school committees, as they now took all responsibility away from the elected committees and put it on a body of men—the Board—who were responsible to no one. The fact was that the committees were made to carry out simply the clerical work of the Board, and were not allowed to carry out the intention of the Ordinance. Respecting the motion of the hon member for Waimate, he thought it would be far better to leave the matter to next session, when the Government could come down with a well-digested scheme. [Hear, hear.] Mr Fisher said he should oppose the resolution, on the ground that it was not advisable to commence a system of tinkering of the Ordinance, which would bo very damaging to the interests of education. [Hear, hear.] Mr Buckley replied at some length. The motion for going into committee was then put and declared to be negatived on the voices. Mr Knight called for a division, which took place as follows : Ayes 18 Hoes 17 Majority for the Ayes ... 1 The resolution for going into committee was therefore agreed to. The House then went into committee on on the matter, Mr Webb in the chair. Mr Knight moved as an amendment, that the following words be added to the resolution, “ who shall be a member of the Executive and have a seat in the Council.” The chairman held that the amendment was not adraissable, as it raised a new question from the resolution before the committee. The Hon Speaker on being appealed to confirmed the ruling of the chairman of committees. A motion for reporting progress was put and declared to be carried on the voices.

The committee divided, with the following result:— Ayes 22 N oes 13 Majority for reporting progress 9 Progress was then reported. RAILWAY TOLLS AND MANAGEMENT ORDINANCE, 1872, AMENDMENT ORDINANCE, 1871. Mr Maude ill moving the second reading of this Bill, said that it provided for the repeal of the schedule respecting warehousing charges in the Ordinance of 1872. It was now proposed by the Government to extend the maximum of charges to 2s fid per ton ou goods not otherwise charged, on wool Is per bale, and on bonded goods, Is per ton, or after Custom’s examination, 2s per ton, and to withdraw the present provision as to time for storage. The Government asked to be armed with this latter power, in order to relieve the pressure upon the station capabilities at the disposal of the Government, He might say that the grain traffic of the past year had been got through by the railway department with considerable inconvenience,not only to the public generally, but also to the Government, and if to the same traffic there was added the increase which next year would bring, it would be an impossibility for the Government to carry the traffic through, if the same conditions as to length of storage were allowed to obtain. He took it for granted that it was never intended to provide storage for those who were buyers of grain to hold upon speculation for a rise, and that the real object is to give such reasonable accommodation to merchants, farmers, and others, who had grain in transitu , as would allow of their getting it shipped. During the month of April, when the pressure was at its height, he (Mr Maude) had caused weekly returns to be made of the grain hold at the Christchurch sheds. For the week ending April 11th there were 11,110 sacks, of which all but 332 sacks were held to order ; 17fi 1 sacks were held by one individual, some of which had been in store since the 19th of March. Others again had grain lying in the store, though in smaller quantities, from the 2nd March. There was one instance in which storage had been held as far back as the 13th February, being two months’ storage all but two days. Again, for the week ending April 18th there were 12,246 sacks in store, 265 only being under order for shipment; while the same individual had 2148 sacks, some of the parcels still dating from 19th Marcn, To take another case of a similar character. For the week ending 16th May there were 10,802 sacks in store, all of which appeared to be held to order, some parcels dating back to April 7th and 9th. Again, ou the 23rd of May, there were 13,369 sacks in store, 157 of which were under order for shipment, the storage date again going back in some instances to 9th April. He felt it would be wasting the time of the House to enumerate further instances ; but the conclusion to which these facts pointed to was that there were instances in which the time within which the storage afforded by the Government is being taken advantage of to the fullest extent. The Government, therefore, asked the Council to entrust them with power to put a stop to this practice. The Government believed that with room to make all duo and reasonable allowances, they should not be expected to provide warehouse room beyond what was necessary for the safe custody of goods in transitu. This rule the Government thought should apply in all cases, but more especially in Christchurch and Lyttelton, where the traffic was concentrated. If the Council saw fit to grant the power at present asked for by the Government, they would make such regulations as would be convenient for the despatch of business acting within the limit of the powers granted by the Council, and would only have recourse to the extreme power placed in its hands, when it was found that the necessities of the public traffic demanded it. He would now move the secoud reading of the Bill. The motion for the second reading was after some discussion agreed to. The House then went into committee on the Bill, when several amendments were made. The Bill as amended was reported to the House, and the third reading fixed for this day. EXECUTIVE COUNCIL ORDINANCE AMENDMENT ORDINANCE. Mr Montgomery moved that the order of the day for going into committee on this Bill be made an order of the day for Tuesday next. He said that the Government were induced to take this step, inasmuch as they considered it desirable that the estimates should be gone on with, leaving this Bill, which was of less importance, to a later period of the session. Mr Kennaway pointed out that the Bill referred to involved an alteration of the Constitution, and he thought such a measure could hardly be considered a subject of minor importance. The motion was agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY, Mr Montgomery moved that the Speaker do leave the chair, and that the House resolve itself into committee of supply. The House divided on the motion : Ayes 22 Noes 12 In committee. Class 16—Harbour, £3610 4s 4d. Agreed to. Class 17—Public plantations, £2337 10s. Agreed to. Class 18—Provincial Government Works, £4060. Mr Maskell asked who was responsible for the repairs of the Rakaia bridge after the report of the railway engineer ? Mr Maude said that before the question of roads and bridges came on he would lay on the table the correspondence relative to this matter. Mr Montgomery said that the Government would, when the vote for roads and bridges came on, be prepared to give the fullest information. The item was agreed to. Class 19 —Subsidies to ferries, £275. Agreed to. Class 20—Railways, subdivision I—Management, £3103. After a slight discussion progress was reported and leave obtained to sit again tomorrow. INTRODUCTION OP SHEEP. Mr Knight moved —“ That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the circumstances attending the introduction of sheep into the province since the commencement of the year. Committee to consist of the Provincial Secretary, Sir Craeroft Wilson, Messrs Gray, Higgins, T, S. Taucred, Buckley, and the mover, with power lo call for persons and papers, and report in a week.” The motion was agreed to,