POLITICAL CRISIS

Gisborne Times, Volume LXI, Issue 9847, 28 October 1924, Page 5

POLITICAL CRISIS

MEAT EXPORT BILL. MR. LYSNAIt AND HIS AMENDMENTS. LIFE OF GOVERNMENT THREATENED. •COLONEL BELL ASSISTS MEMBER FOR GISBORNE. COMPLAINT OF SHABBY TREATMENT. HON; A. D. McLEOD INVITES MR. LYSNAR TO RESIGN.

WELLINGTON, Oct. 27. On the motion l that the Meat Export Control Amendment Bill be read a third time Mr. Lysnar protested against the action of the Government in forcing the Bill through during, the early hours of the morning, when! it was known numbers of his supporters had gone home, believing the Bill would bo forced through. He also protested against the Government again biiuging the Bill on on a Monday evening, when there was always a thin House. After referring to incidents which happened when the- Bill was in committee, he moved that the Bill be re-committed for the purpose of considering certain amendments which he desired to give the House an opportunity of considering. He regretted the Government had! not brought down legislation dealing efficiently with trusts and combines. He was afraid party was intervening anti 1 preventing the House from dealing with tills important position in the interests of the Dominion. He called upon the Premier to free his supporters from the claims of party and allow them to pass legislation for which there was a majority in the House.

Colonel Bell seconded the amendment. He said that in view of the manner in which Mr. Lysnar was treated when the Bill was in committee lie was surprised at the moder-ation-.of his'speech. That man had spent fifteen years in trying to bring ■about reform in the matter of meat export and had no right to bo treated as he was. There was no reason to suppose the brains of the country were embodied in the Government. The evidence brought before a committee of the House showed clearly that something must be doiie and lie would like to know whether the Government had the courage to act. If the 'Government was not prepared to take the question of trusts in hand then they must make way for some one which would. This matter could not go on indefinitely. The Premier find said the amendments moved, by Mr. Lysnar would 1 cause a revolution. It would come sooner or later and the sooner it came the better. The time had come when the •Government should make a solid stand, but, if they were not prepared to take a stand, there must he a change. The G over ill'll ent’s attitude towards Mr. Lysnnr’s amendments, many of which were fair and equitable, was simply that of heaping an insult on the heads of the producers of the Dominion 1 .

A TRAIL OF DISASTER

The Hon. Mr. McLeod denied that the Government had in any way encouraged trusts. Ever since the present Board was set up the policy of the Government had been definitely against trusts and the result . wax that there was not one additional trust operating in the Dominion Dow than there was before the Board was set up. He did not want to go into the question of Dir. Lysnar’s' personal quarrel with Vestey’s. This was not the place to discuss that, there uas only one way to settle that and, when that time came, the member for Gisborne would have to disclose the whole of the facts of his dealings with. Vesteys and they would have to be placed before the public in such a way that the public could understand thorn. Mr. Lysnar remarked that he was quite willing to do that. Continuing, the Minister said that Mr. Lysnar would also have to make clear liis relations with the' American trust known as “The Big Five.” He did not wish to detract from the services to the producers rendered by Mr Lysnar. He envied his energy, but the net result of all that he had done had left a trail of disaster behind them. "What was the' 1 history of his wool deals and what had become of his own wool which he hold hack m the face of a definite contract honorably entered into? He advised Dir. Lysnar to mo back to bis constituents, j tender his resignation, and then they would sec where the producers stood ari d where he (Mr. Lysnar) stood. The Government had placed no hindrance upon the investment of British capital in the Dominion but they had protected the country against the operations of the American trusts. Mr. Lysnar. giving a personal explanation, said that lie never stumped the country advising wool -growers to hold their' wool back against the commandeer. The war was over before. lie held bis own wool back, because he objected to it coming into tin? hands of profiteers.

ATTACK ON THE GOVERNMENT. Mr. Masters said that they were under a debt of gratitude to Mr. Lysnar for an opportunity to re-considei the constitution of the Meat. Board, with which the Farmers’ Union was gravely dissatisfied. Mr. Massey: “The farmers are satisfied.” Continuing, Mr. Masters said the Government professed to be against trusts, but could they say that Vestel's was not a trust. They could not. They dare not. Vesteys had shops m all parts of the world and, if the present Government remained in power lon<r enough, they would be all over New Zealand. .They were gradually gathering in the trade of the North Auckland district. They were at Gisborne and, recently, they purchased land in Canterbury. What for ? Obviously, to extend their operations to the South Island, where, so far. trusts had not been operating to any great extent. Personally, he was opposed to trusts in every way . and that was probably the reason wliy he was put off the Stock and Agricultural Committee of the House, because no satisfactory explanation of that step had been given. The Government was, however, not opposed to trusts, becpusc, by permitting Vesteys to purchase the Gisborne works, they had assisted the trust. The interests of the trusts and of tlio Reform Party were identical. They were like Siamese twins;-if.you killed one you kilted., the other. If there was nothing to hide, there could be no objection to the re-opening of the question ns Mr. Lysnar proposed. The vote would tell. Mr. Hawken . said Vesteys was a. British company and 1 they were the one firm wlr*cTi Tip. cl-iouirlit the Anieric.an trusts and prevented them getting control of the meat market of the" world. So far it had not been shown that Vesteys had done the producers of thcDominion 'any barm.

NEED FOR SEARCHING ENQUIRY lie defended the purchase of the Gisborne works by Vesteys. Hie fact was that the Gisborne company tried themselves to sell to both Vesteys and Armours and it was most unfair for their representative to come to the. House and seek to cast the blame upon the Meat Board and. tne Minister for Agriculture. He consid-ered'-that when the honor of the Government was impugned in the way »• bad been there should lie a searching inquiry into the whole of the. facts. Mr. ‘Massey : “Hear! hear! I'quite agree with you.”

SALE OF THE I\B MEAT WORKS

MR. NOSWORTHY SAYS INQUIRY

WILL BE HELD

The Hon. W. Nosworthy said that life proposed to disregard, the personal attacks made upon himself, but he did propose to say that an inquiry would be hold into the whole of the facts connected' with the sale of the Gisborne meat works. “That is a Ministerial promise,” he added. Continuing, Mr. Nosworthy' said that there, would nob he much in Mr. Lysriar’s connection with trusts and combines, shipping and otherwise, that would not be exposed before he was done with him. He then read copies of correspondence purporting to show-that Mr. Lysnar had offered the Gisborne works to Vesteys and Armours, while at tlio same time denouncing them, as trusts and combines in the House and-lie asked where wasi his consistency? Vesteys had come into the country under a Liberal Government, but there was ample power in the existing legislation to control them and he would not hesitate to use that power if ever it became necessary. No member of the House had worried the Premier or himself more than Mr. Lvsnar had, but Mr. Lysnar had not taken one single step which was not for his own selfish ends to grind his own axe. There would, however, soon bo an opportunity of lotting the producers see what humbugs had led and misled them. Mr. Lysnar, in the course of a personal explanation, said that if the whole of the correspondence was read it would show the boot was on the other foot. Mr. [Forbes said the discussion had shown clearly that Vesteys had acquiredl the Gisborne works in the face of the fact that the House was definitely against these big concerns getting a hold on the country. It was. well known that one of those big firms, if they had only a few. works, could dominate the whole of the country because they could rail their stock for many miles. He welcomed the promised commission of inquiry because the farmers should know exactly what lvad happened. Ho entirely agreed with Mr. Lysnar’s proposal to remodel the Meat Control Board and he could not understand why the Government, opposed it when it ivas previously before, the House. PREMIER SHARES RESPONSE

BILITY

Mr. Massey said that ho was nob ira New Zealand when Vesteys bought the Gisborne works and knew nothing about' it. But had he been. here probably lie would have done iust as Ins colleagues had done and he took his full share of the responsibility. The trusts were completely under control owing to the system of licenses which the Government could grant or refuse as they thought fit. That alteration in the law was what put the American trusts in their place and, since then, they had 1 had no trouble. At the same time, be insisted upon an inquiry into the facts, because the whole thin had been a misery to him and it must be cleared up. Personally lie preferred a direct form oi election for the Meat Control Board, but. that could be done by regulation and did not require an Act of Parliament. He then proceeded to review the history of the meat industry whin'll led” to the setting up of the Control Board.

NO . CONNECTION "WITH TRUSTS. Mr. Massey claimed that the Board had done excellent work and said that it would have been most unfair to try and pull the Board to pieces in the absence of the chairman, who had worked exceedingly hard to make the Board a success. He defended Vesteys as a largo and reputable firm, who, it was true, had many shops. He was coming to the'conclusion that New Zealand would some day have to have a thousand shops of lier own and they would have to be spread over the whole of Britain. The member for Stratford had accused the Government of being mixed up with trusts and combines. He gave the stater ment an emphatic denial. Neither he nor liis Government had relations of any kind with trusts and combines. He claimed he had done more for the producers of Now Zealand than any other ten men, instancing his share in promoting the meat commandeer, in securing ships to carry the meat, iiv reducing taxation arid in procuring cheap money as proof of his statement.

At this stage the Premier was informed by Mr. Speaker that be v.ns gettiim wide of the subject ol the Bill. , , Mr. Massey then concluded by expressing a hope that they would hear no more of the. Government’s connection' with trusts, combines and banking. institutions, because no such connections existed. Mr. Holland trusted that when a Royal Commission was appointed it would not deal with \ esteys alone, but would look into the. whole question of trusts and that it would act under a wide order of reference. MR. LYSNAR’S AMENDMENT

NEGATIVED.

The discussion was continued briefly by Messrs. Field, Veitch, Parr and Milford and, at 12.30, a division was taken' on Mr. L-ysnaFs amendment when the re-committal of the Bill M as negatived by 30 votes to 28. . The Bill 'was then read and third time and passed.—Press Assn.

“I WOULD BE A PUBLIC

COWARD.”

MR LYSNAR’S COMPLAINT AG AIN ST PREMIER.

TIME ripe for change of ADMINISTRATION.

WELLINGTON, Oct 27. When Mr Nosworthy moved the third reading of this Bill. Mr Lysnar (Gisborne) again complained ot tne action of the Government m bi l aging on the Bill in committee when there was a thin House. Ho complained now of their having brought the Bill on again when there was a thin Blouse. He referred to statements made by Ministers during, the committee stage of the Lill. H'.e Government was pledged against trusts and combines. He w-as returned as advocate against trusts. xet the Government did pot function in .this matter. He had been five years in the House asking for legislation in this matter, but, up to the present, he had got no satisfaction. The Prune Minister had said that he (Mr Lysnar) was the most unreasonable man he had ever met in,, all plus; Parliamentary life. (Mr Massey smiled and there were Hear, Hears.) Mr Lysnar added that ho was doing his duty to his constituents and to the Dominion as a whole and lie was doing what he considered m preference to party. “I am not a public coward. If I had done what the I re-; mier had asked me, I would be a public coward.” Mr Speaker; Order! Order! Mr Lysnar said there was a tune when a limit would come to follow a party and in this instance the hnut was ' reached. If the Prime Munster indicated liis disapproval and said ho (Mr Lvsnar) was a very naughty boy then he (Mr Lysnar) could not help it. (Laughter) .> He saul the time had arrived when there should be a change in the administration and a new party should be formed. Ho suggested that tlio representatives of the progressive elements or Reform and Liberals should come together and form a new party to enact progressive legislation, such as was being demanded in the Dominion at the present time. ' Mr Speaker : .. Order! Order! , I think the lion, gentleman is nob dealing with the Bill. Mr Lysnar made several - furthei attempts to discuss this subject but

Mr Speaker, on each occasion, told him he was not in order in doing so. 'Mr Lysnar then moved that the Bill be referred back to the committee to consider certain amendments.

Mr Lysnar’s speech was a very wild one and tho hot half-hour with which he had in tho committee debate threatened tho Minister of Agriculture did not materialise.

COL. BELL CONDEMNS GOVERNMENT. ‘TRUSTS MUST BE DEALT WITH OR GOVERNMENT MUST GO.”

Mr Bell 'o3ay of Island, Independent), secondeded the amendment and strongly condemned the Government for tlieir inaction in regard to trusts. He said that there was no reason to believe that the brains of the country were wrapped .up in-the Prime Minister and, if something was not done in regard to trusts, then the time had come for tho Government to go. Tho Hon. A. D. McLeod (Minister for Lands) said that it was with some difficulty and hesitancy that he arose to reply to tlio two extraordinary speeches that the House had just listened to. From what members had said, one would have thought that the Government bad gone out to encourage trusts in this country. But the policy of the Government had been against trusts right through the piece and, to-day, there was not one more trust nor are more works in the country than when tho Meat Board was brought into operation. The lion, member for Gisborne had now whittled down and toned down his amendments, after finding the opposition in tho country, to his attack on Bortlnvicks and Sons aiiu he had whittled them down to Vcstys. He did not intend to refer to the lion, gent’s personal fight against Vestys. He did not think that that was the right place to do it. There was only one way to settle the matter and the Government, which had done far more for tho producers than either of the lion, members who had just spoken, would insist that all the transactions in regard to Vestys and the lion, member for Gisborne should be thoroughly investigated and placed on record. Dir McLeod said that tho Government had to consider tho legitimate interests of British capital that had been invested here for many years in Borthwick’s and Vostey’s. The question would lie asked of the lion, member for Gisborne whether lie had kept liis hands clean so far as the American “Big Five” were concerned. Mr Lysnar: Yes; I don’t want any insinuations from you. Quite clean. MR LYSNAR! INVITED TO RESIGN.

Mr McLeod said that lie would not pursue the matter further as that was not the proper place, but the House, the country and the lion, member’s own constituency would not- be satisfied until the whole of records wero produced, so that the producers of the country coulu see what had been going on during the last few months. As to the Government's appointments to the Meat Control Board did the hon. member say that the defeated candidates had been appointed by tiie Government to the Board?

Mr Lysnar: No; but you might do it. (Laughter). Mr McLeod retorted that tho Reform Government would only appoint to the Board those who had the confidence of the sheepfarmors of the country which the hon. member had never had. (Laughter). He contended that, for years past, the advice given by the hon. member for Gisborne to sliccpfarmers of the Dominion had resulted in nothing but disaster after disaster. The hon. member had stumped the country urging the farmers not to sell their wool to tho British Government, when our Government had entered into an honorable compact for the sale of our wool under the commandeer. He had got quite a number of farmers to hold their wool back from the commandeer promising them that they would get 3s to 4s a pound for their wool and he had left them with wool that they could not get 3d a pound for, though they could have got lod a pound for it under the commandeer. He challenged the hon. member to resign and appeal to his constituents and see where he stood with them.

MR HOLLAND ASKS PERTINENT QUESTION.

Mr Holland (Leader of the Labor party): Are you taking this as a motion of no-confidence ? The prime Minister: That is my job; that is for me to say. It might come sooner than you think.

-Mr McLeod: There is one course open to the lion, member for Gisborne so far as his differences with the Government are concerned. If ho wants to see ail alteration in the representation of this House in one electorate in particular I know how to get it without any trouble. The Government, he contended, luid not allowed the trusts to get a stranglehold of tho country, hut had held them back up to the point of fairness to the British capital, invested in the cc untry. It had kept out the American capital and trusts that wanted to get into the country. Mr Lysnar stated that ho did not stump the country to persuade tho farmers not to sell tlieir wool. He had withheld his own wool and published tho correspondence in regard to it He held liis wool after tho war was closed, because it was going not to the British Government but to the profiteers and lie was glad that lie had done so because be did well out of it.—Special.

DIR. MASSEY’S CHALLENGE TO DIR. LYSNAR.

“SAY IT OUTSIDE THE HOUSE.”

WELLINGTON, Oct. 27. Speaking just before 11 o’clock. Dir Massey said that .ho endorsed what the Minister of Agriculture had said. Speaking emphatically, he said tlie whole thing had got to bo thrashed out and tlio one who was responsible would take the consequences. they could not allow this matter to go on as it bad beer, going on for months. As to the, reference of the member tor Gisborne that the Government had not acted against the trusts, he quoted from Hansard a. laudatory speech made by the member for Gisborne when the Government brought down its BUI against trusts. That was the Bill that was in! operation to-day Mr. Parry (referring to Dir. Lysnar’s commendation of the Bill and of the, Prime Minister): “Ho was throwing bouquets about then. ’ Mr. Massey: Yes, but it was not bouquets bo was throwing about tonight—it was mud ! In* reference to an interjection by Dir. Lysnar, lie challsr.> rr ccl him to say outside the House what he had said against him and then he would have bis remedy. When the timid came for him to go out, lie knew that he could say that he-wont out with clean hands and a good record. No man would bo able to point the linger of scorn at any action of liis and he had never made, anything out of it. lie had done Ins level best for this country and for the producers from one end ot the country to the, other, not only as a member of the Government, but as a private member. —Special.

MINISTER IN REPLY. INTERESTING ALL CATIONS. “MR. LYS'N.ArThIMSELF TRIED TO NEGOTIATE WITH VESTEYS.” WELLINGTON, Oct. 27.‘‘Regarding the sale of the Poverty Bay works to Vesteys, here are tne actual facts,” said Mr. Nosworthy m

the course of his reply on the. Meat Export Control Bill. (i) The hon‘. member for Gisborne, in .February, 1923 (and on later occasions) discussed with Vestoy Bros.’ representative (Mr. Rowlands) proposals for the sale and purchase of the works. Mr. Rowlands confirms' tin's in a cable from London 1 ,reading as follows:

Cable from general manager of Vesteys: “Works arid' steamer were offered to A. Rowlands and R. M. Martin at his Auckland office on February 21, 1923, by W. D.'Lysnar, Mr. C. Matthews and Mr. G\ Witters. When informed tna-t he was uniiir tcrested in the purchase of tlie steamer, they consulted together privately and submitted a price for the works alone, pressing to have it put Irelore London and payment to be either in cash or part shares. Subsequently . Mr. Rowlands and Mr Tolerton were pestered on several occasions by Mr, Lysnar, Mr. Matthews and Mr. Witters separately for counter offers of some kind and, at the end of April, by all three on the occasion of a visit oi Mr. Rowlands to the Poverty. Bay Farmers’ Waipaoa works.”

* “This,” said Mr. Nosworthy, “is clear proof that Mr. Lysnar himself attempted to do the very thing which he is now reviling the Government for having afterwards permitted. Nor can it be said that the lion, member was then ignorant that Yesteys was a trust. Five months before lie had said in this House: ‘Yestey Bros, is undoubtedly a dangerous firm ; It is not associated with the Big hive, but it is, in my opinion,'more dangerous than the Big Five (H ansard Vol. 189, page 56).’ ” ALLEGED OVERTURE TO ARMOURS.

(2) “In March 1923,” continued the Minister, “the lion, member made a proposal to the representative of Armours that Armours should advance £340,000 for seven years. He also approached the chairman' of the .Meat Board to see whether the Board would agree to this. The chairman of the Board (Mr. D. Jones) refused on the grounds that this loan, it granted would make. Armours virtually dominant, and, if complications occurred, actually owners of the works. Armours would then have been able to say: ‘We are in possession with the. consent of the Meat Control Board.’ “That was,” said Mr. Nosworthy, “in 1923. Yet in October, 1920, the lion, member had said : T regret that any member of this House should auvocatc that Armour and Co. or any of the big combines be allowed to operate in the Dominion.’ (Hansard Vol. 189 Page Sol.)

THE SALE TO YESTEYS

“In September, 1923,” said the Minister, “Vestevs made, their offer of £225.000 for the works, as it was impossible for the company ever to extricate itself from the financial position it was in and, as "Vestevs were the only possible buyers, tire bank determined that they, must accept the offer, failing which it would take its own course to realise its 'securities. The company received £225,000 for its land, buildings, plant and machinery, which stood in their balancesheet of August 31, 1923, at £221,228. Therefore, for tins asset, they received more than 20s ini the £. Now the hon. member for Gisborne states that what the company asked arid expected was that the _ bank should stop. selling to a combine or trust ‘that was the whole and only noint’—(sec ‘Poverty Bay Herald,’ December 15, 1923).

A QUESTION FOR MR. LYSNAR. “Why does the hon. member now think the bank should have _ been stopped from doing what he himself tried so hard to do? Supposing his own negotiations with Yesteys had’ been successful, and I had refused to allow the license to be transferred, lie would have attacked me just as bitterlv for refusing the transfer as he is now doing for sanctioning it. Now let me give the reasons which actuated me to grant the transfer to Yesteys: i(l) The" Poverty Bay Meat Company was hopelessly insolvent. (2) Two works are more than sufficient to deal with the stock ai arable. , (3) Another farmers’ company already had a works at Gisborne. (4) Yesteys for years had had a license for their works at Taruheru. (o) Yesteys contemplated rebuilding the Taruheru works. AN INTERESTING LETTER.

“The hon. member’s own opinion that two works wore sufficient is well expressed in a letter from him to \ estevs which reads as follows:

'Mv directors feel very strongly that there is no room for three largs works in the Gisborne district and, if your company builds another large freezing works there to replace the Taruheru works, as contemplated, it will only allow a s trim Ming existence for the three works and the overhead (Marges ot the whole three would bo saddled on the sheepfarmers of the district.

“This letter,” said the Minister, this written in August. 1923, and ior once I am in agreement with the non. member. The“ transfer of the Poverty Bay Fanners’ Company’s license for' their Waipaoa works to Vcstcvs was conditional on their dismantling tlicir Taruheru works. The net result, therefore, is—(.l) Vesteys have no additional license. , . . , (2) Had they rebuilt their worus at Taruliefu and had the two farmers works at Haiti and Waipaoa continued working against e£6h other, \ ostevs would have boon in a sti onger position than they are to-da.y. Special. ;