OUTER HARBOR SCHEME

Gisborne Times, Volume XXV, Issue 2103, 11 June 1907, Page 2

OUTER HARBOR SCHEME

ARBOR BOARD AT VARIANCE

MORE INFORMATION WANTED

AN ABORTIVE MEETING

The Gisborne Harbor Board mob at 2 o’clock yesterday afternoon lor the purpose of considering tho Euabluip Bill in connection with tho Outer Harbour Scheme. Minor business was first dealt with and it was getting on for 3 o’clock when tho subject was reached. Mr. Clark: What is tho prosont position ? Tho Chairman (Mr. Townloy): We have alroady ilecidoil that an Enabling Bill bo drafted. The Bui is now prepared and this mooting is to considor ifc. Mr. Clark considered it would he

“absoluto folly” to discuss tlio Bill without proper data beforo the Board. He understood that the Board had decided to got a full report as to tho position, what it would cost, tho difference in handling cargo and generally all matters rolating to tho offect the scheme would have. ’file Chairman: We decided by resolution of the Board to get a Bill drafted and it is now beforo us. You were not present when it was carried. Mr. Clark argued that when the harbour scheme was approved it was agreed that a lull statement be drawn up and submitted to tlie ratepayers, showing the saving or otherwise effected by the scheme. That

had nover been done. “Because you have been forced on by a few enthusiastic: people,” added tlie speaker, “you have gone so far as to hurriedly draft a . Bill thereby stultifying the whole ilosition.” The Chairman pointed out that at tlie previous meeting a committee ol the Board hail been sot up to confer, with the solicitor re drafting tlie Bill. Mr. Clark: The undertaking to submit a statement to ratepayers lias been broken. Why? Because Mr. Marchnnt’s scheme lias not yet been approved by the expert. Tho Chairman: All the facts ant

figures will be laid before -the rate-

payers in due course. They are entitled to tliis and it will bo done. 11 was urged that the Bill should be

drafted so as to get it through the House this session and thus save a. year’s time. That was the Board’s principal reason for so deciding in your absence. Mr. Clark said lie had not made his point clear. He quite aware tlie ratepayers would liavo to bo consulted, but lie quite understood—anil other members understood—that beforo considering any Enabling Bill they would get the consulting engineer’s advice, and facts and figures relating to it. It was not businesslike to proceed until these were submitted.

Mr. Mattlicwson : Tlie first tiling to do if we are going to have a harbour at all is to get' an Enabling Bill passed. Of course a vote of the ratepayers will have to be taken. The sooner we tackle it tho better. It is very important- that the session should not be lost.

Mr. Sievwright thought Mr. Marchant’s scheme should be reported upon before any definite steps were taken. Tho Bill required very careful consideration. He did not, however, wish to hang up the business and was prepared to go on with tlie discussion if the majority wished. Mr. Lysnar hoped there would be no attempt at this juncture to baulk the Bill. Mr. Clark said there was no information before the Board. Why, each member of the Board could readily figure out the position. (Mr. Clark: “Question.”) He would give Mr. Clark a few figures, ana would challenge him to question them. :

Mr. Mattlicwson: Go on; don’t waste time.

Mr. Clark: I want official figures authorised by the Board. The Chairman: It is quite open for you to move for any' return you want.

Mr. Lysnar: If we dilly-dally with this thing we will miss the session and delay matters another year. It is a serious matter to us. With harbor facilities the saving on every ton of cargo that comes from outside tlie colony would he from 15s to 225. That is the first saving. Mr. Clark: I don’t want to say outright that you arc wrong, but 1 think you are. Mr. Lysnar went on to say that tho river harbor expenditure last year was about £IO,OOO. With an outer harbor they could save £OOOO of that amount, and still he on tho safe side by r allocating £3OOO or £4OOO to keep the river open. Ho estimated that under deep sea harbor conditions, the ‘revenue from port dues would ho doubled. This was on the basis of last year’s tonnage. This increase, £SOOO, with the saving on river expenditure, meant £II,OOO to the Board. The interest on-£331,000 at 4 per cent, interest and $• per cent, sinking fund was £14,895, leaving

the Board to make good only about £3890 deficit of revenue. This would he more than made up, lie maintained, by' the extra rentals that would later on accrue from tlie Board’s To Hapara leases, the present terms being up in flireo or four years’ time. In tho foregoing figures lie had made no calculation for the extra cargo that would come into the port, whereas tho ratio of increase was £2OOO per annum. If that rate were maintained for four years there, was £BOOO extra increase of tho port charges. The revenue from this source must increase, and on this basis the Board would be

£BOOO to the good. He held that interest and sinking fund could . he paid without striking one farthing more rates than were levied to-day. If Mr. Clark could challenge these figures Mr. Clark: I will, don’t you fear. Mr. Lysnar: I can uphold my figures. I have allowed nothing for the saving on the Home cargoes. The position is such that not a member of this Board should burk the speedy carrving out of this harbor scheme. We are losing thousands a year. 'Every' ton of cargo landed from the Home boats at other ports costs ns 15s for delivery here. Then there is lighterage. 5s extra. The Chairman: That is included in the 15s.

Mr. Lvsnar: Well, you agree that every ton costs los. That saving alone would be very large. Mr. Clark: I am entirely against the chairman. I say no ocean-going vessels will open a hatchway for direct Gisborne, cargo.

The Mayor: Mr. Lysnar draws the conclusion that if vessels come here they will bring cargo. The reason they have done so much at Tiniaru is that a saving of £15,000 \a( year is Jnade by landing direct from the large vessels. But to'get the vessels they had to promise so much cargo every two months, wlicli includes 500 tons of manure a month. Mr. Collins went round Gisborne to see how much cargo could be guaranteed, and the amount was not sufficient, nor anything like sufficient. Mr. Lysnar: That was about 20

years ago. The Chairman: It was two years Mr. Lysnar rejoined that the whole reason for this was that at present we had only an open roadstead and skippers would take the risk of waiting here to discharge cargoes. If there was a bill of lading for Gisborne and if came up rough the vessel had to take-the cargo on. Companies did not. like the expense of sending over-carried cargo back. Until they had protection they could not expect

peon'll boats to work this port proporty. . , , Mr. Siovwright rose to a point ot order. ; What was tho use of discussing the general question at this 1 stage,.? Tho whole issue before the Hoard was whether they were going to accept this Bill. It was not the] time to discuss whether they should liavo a harbour or not. ] Mr. Clark: 1 move that the Board do not discuss the Bill until we get further information. From London? —No, from our office hero. We were promised a statement.

Mr. Whinray: I never hoard of it Mr. Clark: Those who did not hear it must bo deal'. As business men wo should have it before us. You s'ay you are going to have a £350,000 harbour. I say at once that it an outside harbour can bo constructed wtihin a reasonable limit, if Mr. Marchant’s Bcliemo is approved and the financial outlook is sound, X am with you. We are all speculative moil, but I novor speculate before reviewing my position. The Board has novor had anything to show whether the harbor will pay, or reach within measurable distance oi paying. We must remember that it will be a mile and a quarter from the present breakwater, or from a mile and a half to a mile and three-quarters from the centre of the town. Continuing, Mr. Clark wanted some assurance that it would pay. Mr. Lysnar had made a point about the saving of direct freights. Well, three years ago when at Home he (Mr. Clark) interviewed three shipping companies. Two of them refused outright to land cargoes at Gisborne, saying that the amount ol cargo they would require before opening a hatch was outside of Gisborne’s possibilities. “I say you cannot depend on getting cargoes,” added Mr. Clark. He would like to see the shipping companies communicated with. Mr. Lysnar: They would bluff you off, because if wo got-tlio outer harbour we would have to charge them £IO,OOO a year in dues. Mr. Clark disputed Mr. Lysnar’s figures as to the saving of £6,000 a year on the river. That money,- lie maintained, was represented in improvements. It was a fallacy .to say so much a year was saved because improvements ceased. Mr. Lysnar: I say that we spend so much on the river now, and that portion of such expenditure will be saved in future, in upkeep and general expenditure. Mr. Clark: You also want to charge ships £5,000 a year more in dues. I think we charge them fairly now. To commence to charge £5,000 a year is preparing a rod for our own backs. I am as strong for the outer harbour scheme as any member of the Board, but as a business man 1 want to know what I am embarking upon. I am against a harbour that is going to-be rulied on without due consideration as the first one was. Mr. Siovwright seconded the motion deferring consideration until Mr. Wilson’s report and the 'financial statement from the Board were to hand. “It seems to me,” he remarked, “that we arc going a great deal too fast.” There was no need for such haste. They did not even realise yet- what Mr. Marchant’s scheme was. The report was all right so far as instructions wont, but fixing 40ft. as the depth limited the harbour to one spot in the Bay. Ho (Mr. Sievwriglit) thought this a mistake. Mr. Lysnar had said the district was quite prepared to stand the expense. Admitting that, it was no reason for rushing on the project. Parliament might very properly want further information. For all the Board knew Mr. Wilson might advise that the scheme was not a practicable one. t Personally he (the speaker) did not thing it a practicable one unless it had an enclosed area, owing to the ; heavy “range.” Mr. Marchant was going to build a rubble wall in 40ft. ; of water, but it was doubtful whether the local stone would be good enough. Mr. Matthewson: We all know the meaning of this. It. is only delay, delay, delay to stave it off. I don’t want to see it burked at 'this stage. The Chairman said the Board, in ’ deciding to consider the draft Bill, had been pretty well unanimous. He would rule .to go on with the Bill. The Hon. Captain Tucker considered it reasonable for any member to ask for certain information to enable him to deal intelligently with the Bill. If they had not first digested the figures and then framed the Bill, Parliament might.say, “How can you expect us to pass such a crude and ill-considcrod measure.” Nobody, .lie continued, could yet say how the harbour would act, whether it would be affected or not when there was a heavy “range.” The Board must have all the information possible before them. Parliament would be more likely to treat with respect a measure that had been thoroughly considered by the Board. He did not know that the delay would be in any way fatal. If they wanted to bo assured of the Bill passing they must not unduly rush. it. Although he would like to see the matter gone on with, he thought Mr. Clprk’s motion could bo altered to meet the case. He did not seo how anyone could refuse it. To declino to give due time would bo equal to saying, “1 want to go on blindly.” He had come prepared to discuss the Bill and make amendments, because he knew there were places requiring amendments. But to hear persons talking of the thousands of pounds that would be saved made him inclined to “sheer off” and go into the thing more carefully. He remembered so many instances where similar statements had been made, but had been falsified by time. Mr. Harris objected if much delay were likely. Apart from all statistics the wishes of the ratepayers had to be considered. A bank would always advance money so long as there was security and he thought the district would give the Board the money on the security of a good harbour. As the hour was too late to discuss the Bill that day lie suggested a week’s adjournment. Personally h< did not care what figures were brought forward—he would go for the outer harbour. "The-ratepayers say an outer harbour, every time,” he continued. Some members had worked fifteen years for it, and . he owed his election to his advocacy of the scheme. Mr. Lysnar said lie was very sorry the meeting had been delayed with other business. Pie would ■ like the Board to make a start on the Bill at ail events. Captain Tucker was sceptical about getting something foi nothing. “Well,” said the speaker, “you have given 288,000 of the golden sovereigns of this district for nothing (I refer to the river scheme) —we want you to draw the line and say no more expenditure on the

river.” Mr. Clark: Give us the figures. Mr. Lysnar read the figures from the 1905 balance sheet. In the last 15 years up to that time the Board had spent £76,298 and for 1906 the expenditure was £8212. Add to this £204,107 loan money and the total was as stated. “Wo are not getting something for nothing, but want to stop spending money for nothing,” he continued. They could get the harbour without additional expense to the ratepayers. He confidently anticipated the vote of Mr. Clark and the Hon. Captain Tucker, before the matter ended, in support of the scheme. Mr. Clark: Give me the informa-

tion and I may. Mr. Lysnar: You mark my words. Mr. Clark will bo .found voting for the Bill.

Mr. Alattliowson: Tho ratepayers are the ones who will decide it. Mr. Lysnar said it would ta'ko two or three mouths to got the Bill properly before tho House. It would not pass until well towards tho ond of tho session and it was competent to make any alteration to it right up to th,;> last minute. Captain 'flicker would doubtless keep a friendly eye on it in tho Legislative Council. Tho Chairman: If you solid tho Bill down, Parliament won’t let you amend it afterwards. Mr. Lysiiar said yes, and quoted a local instance. Let tho Board send down plans, without attaching anyone's name if necessary, and ailirm broadly that they were prepared to spend £400,000 on a harbour. The details could always bo amended. Mr. Sievwright: Do you mean to say Parliament will liass a Bill without plans. Mr. Lysnar: Of course we will send plans. They may bo Mr. Wilson’s 01 Mr. Merchant's. Mr. Whinray favoured an adjournment until the data asked for by Mr. Clark was available. Mr. Clark agreed to leave Mr. Wilson’s name out of his motion, but insisted on the figures. Mr. Harris: What figures does he want. Where are they to come from. The Chairman read tho following statement: — Cargo lightered inward and outward at Gisborne, from May 1, 1906 to April 3, 1907:—342,055ft. timber, 110 posts, 1762 tons coal, 307 horses and cattle, 12,215 sheep, 23,633 bales wool, 261,871 carcases mutton, 76,368 do. lamb, 30,026 sheepskins, 24,231 tons miscellaneous. Total 39,618 tons. Do. cargo without lighterage: — 5,322,715 f- timber, 47,211 posts and blocks, 9,186 tons coal, 89 horses and cattle, 14,082 sheep, 1,763 bales wool, 10,265 sheepskins, 13,827 tons miscellaneous. Total, 35,567 tons. Mr. Clark raised a point that iselson’s freezing works would still have to lighter ■ their produce, and the Chairman agreed. A typewritten trade -return was suggested by Air. Clai'k. Mr. Hepburn: So long as wo don t dilly dally too long and miss Parliament. The Chairman: We will have a better chance in sending down a properly digested Bill. Mr. Mattliewson asked if members could not take a breader view than to base their whole opinion on a few figures. There would be no cost to the ratepayers; that was the main point- “Wo have had figures for months and quarrel over them every time.” Air. Lysnar said" that the trade statistics quoted by the Chairman answered the whole question. Air. Clark queried, whether an efficient harbour could be built for £400,000. Could they quote one in the whole world built for sue a sum.” Voices: We are not engineers. Mr. Hepburn: Ours is not an outside harbour; it is a different thing altogether. . ' Discussion was starting to lag a little when Air. Lysnar moved the Bill be consider**! at 7.30 the same evening. On the official figures, he said, lightering would be saved on 39,000 tons of cargo. The Chairman: That includes all Nelson Bros.’ produce that comes down.

Mr. Lysnar: Well, deducting their goods, see what- lighterage runs the town into each year. Captain Tucker: Put the motion. This is only confusion worse confounded. Mr. Hepburn seconded the adjournment to the evening. Mr. Mattliewson: I won’t come and listen to these long conversations for

,Mr. Sievwright: I’m not going to sit this evening. We’ve been here two and a- half hours now. I don’t like these tactics at all.. Every honest man should refuse, to be a party to it. Captain Tucker, Mr. Clark and I won’t be here to-night. I wish to emphatically protest against this dodge. Mr. Lysnar (warmly): You have no right to make such a statement. I say it is dodging to ask for information to try and delay this matter. Wo have figures enough now. Why was this information not asked for before, It would not make much difference. As. Mr. Harris said, four of the members were pledged to put the issue before the ratepayers. Captain Tucker: Whether they understood it or not' surely the Board should be allowed to grasp the thing first-

Mr. Lysnar: The information is lying on the table. You can’t get more information than we have. Captain Tucker: Nonsense. Mr. Lysnar: Why did not Mr. Clark ask for it. Mr. Sievwright: AVc expected to get it, I ask leave to alter the motion to 2 o’clock to-morrow. Mr. Clark: Let us get to work in a business-like way. (Laughter.) We want 1 a list of all the cargoes not lightered. I say Nelson Bros, won’t bo lightered. It will have to be railed and that would he very dear. New Zealand railways would not carry mutton under 4s per ton. Mr. Lysnar: Let the Harbour Board put a tramway down. Wo will accept delivery at the wharves if no pessary and rail it ourselves without extra, cost. Mr. Clark: What about up-keep. I want the opinions of qualified men. (Laughter.) Tho Chairman: Nelson Bros.’ stuff will have,.to be-lightered the same as now. '

Captain Tucker: This discussion I alone must show any sensible man that we must have, proper information placed before us. Mr. Harris got an admission from I Mr. Clark that he had no authority - from Nelson Bros, in making... the statement re lightering. Mr. Lysnar moved to adjourn to Thursday afternoon. Mr. Sievwright said Mr. Clark’s resolution would meet the case. Mr. Hepburn: That would delay us two or three months. Several members proceeded with the argument'at once. The Chairman: Order, order! Mr. Mattliewson (gloomily): 11 there is much more squabbling we won’t finish this week. Mr. Clark: I have the right to speak to the amendment. The Chairman: You have spoken already. Mr. Clark: I have only spoken three times to the original motion. (Laughter.) • Ruled out of order. The Chairman: Those who ask for information —What is it definitely that you want? Mr. Clark: 4Vc can’t find out for • ourselves. Let the Board obtain it from competent people. The Chairman: We can’t pry into Nelson Bros.’ business. Mr. Clark: What will it cost to move the stuff from town to the proposed breakwater? A member: That is another matter altogether. The Chairman said it would be more expensive to get goods to the wharf then. Mr. Clark: The stuff won’t go over the railway for nothing. Mr. Lysnar says there will be a saving of ss. How does it come in? The cargo won’t walk aboard itself. Mr. Lysnar: No, it will fly. It has to be handled now. It will be taken delivery of just the same. The Chairman: Will.y&u get a load taken for 2s 'the same as now. Certainly not. t Mr. Clark: I don’t want Mr. Lysuar’s opinion; I want it front more

competent pcoplo. (Laughter.) Will j tho Government bo ablo to provide j engines, etc., for that line? \ ia will it cost to rail us against lightermg? Wo must have a poll of the ratepayers, and if wo'can’t give them information of this kind wo simply j kill ourselves. Mr. Lysnar (answering a remark): I Tho wool stores will probably be" moved over there if we get the harbor. J The Chairman: We don’t want to talk stores at present. Tho amendment to hold tho meet-1 ing on Thursday afternoon was carried. Captain Tucker opposed, on tho ground that it was not sufficient time to prepare the statement. Chairman : Adjourned to Thursday. Tho motion reads that we take the Bill only.

Chorus: Yes, tho Bill only 1 I Mr. Sievwright foresaw trouble. The Bill could not be fairly considered without statistics. Tho Board did not belabor the | point. On Mr. Clark’s motion it was agreed to invito information from tho two freezing works, shipping companies, and others, as to how they would piojiose to handle the produce in the event of the harbor, and wliat the saving or otherwise would be. The Board adjourned with alacrity at 4.30 p.m.