AMALGAMATION.

Gisborne Times, Volume VII, Issue 460, 3 July 1902, Page 2

AMALGAMATION.

AX ADVERSE DECISION

IVHATALTOHU HOAD DISTRICT

The annual meeting of ratepayers in the Whataupoko Uuud District was hold last i.'gilt, latte Deii.tr about forty ratepayers present. Mr A. F. Matthews pro--ill.-.'!, and Messrs iltiiion. Sievwrigli:. an i i.y-nur, members ol the Hoard, were also present. Auit-ng others present were : Messrs Stafford. Sweet, Maunseil, Joyie, Deere. Horne, Yaidiey fit, Darton, Spria,la]!, Taylor, Qateuin. O'Connor (2j, Movell, Griffin, Walsh, Withers, Dov.er. Allen, Skiliieorn, Kemp. Ashton, Hansen, Ardern, and Jones. The statement of accounts was read by the Clerk, Mr J. M. Camming. The Chairman said it would be difficult for anyone to grasp n balance-sheet fully as read out, but it would always be open for inspection at the uttiee of the Board. He formally moved the adoption of the balance slice t.

Xo one rising to speak on the balancesheet, the Cnairman said that he would take it as adopted, and tncy could now go on with the other business. He thought it would be well if tho speakers only spoke once, and be thought they should not take longer than fifteen or twenty minutes. Mr F. Stafford asked the position us to special loans ; were they not robbing tho other accounts ?

The Chairman said that the lato Clerk had informed him that accounts almost balanced, but Mr Cumming was going minutely into the whole subject, and he hoped that a report, fully explaining the whole position, would be ready for next meeting. Mr Sievwright, in reply to Mr Stafford, said that the special loan funds were in credit.

AMALGAMATION. Mr Sievwright suggested that as tho night was so bad they should postpone the discussion of amalgamation until Friday evening. They should discuss it in a friendly way. There were many who did not fully understand it. (Mr Lysuar : Hear, hear). And they should go into the whole subject, and thresh it out in a fair way. Tie moved that the meeting be adjourned to Friday. Mr Lysnar said he would second the motion, but objected to Fri lay. He could not be there then. The Chairman said he would bo away on Sunday, and asked if a fortnight bonce would suit. Mr Yardley wanted to know' if they wore to go all through the talk again. Tho subject had beon well threshed out, and he thought all they needed was to get together us big a crowd as they could, and ask ask them to vote yes or no. Mr Joyce ngreed with Mr Yardley. The meeting had been legally called, and there was a good representative attendance ; il they adjourned they might get anothei rainy night. He thought they should proceed with the business.—(Applause). Mr Sievwright said he was quite willin'; to proceed.—(Hear, hear.) He ther moved: “That this annual meeting o the Whataupoko Road District ratepayers disapproves of the present proposal foi amalgamation of part of tho Road Districl with the Borough of Gisborne, and do clares that no proposed extension of the boundaries of Gisborne into any suburbai: or outside districts will give satisfaction or ought to be sanctioned, unless anc until: (1) It is assented to by a majority of the electors within the said districts qualified as electors in the borough now are, and by a poll taken for tho purpose and further only on the basis of graduated rating, both general and special, outsich the borough, according to benefits re ceived ; and (2) until the electors of th< borough by a liltfc poll shall by a majority have ussentod to such a proposed exten sion.” In the course of a concise speech ho expressed tho belief that people die not yet fully understand the position, anc he held the opinion that what had beer done was not in conformity with tho Act As to tho voting in the borough there wen three qualifications, while in tho road district thoro was only the one. The peti tion for amalgamation had not beon let in a public place. He had never seen it It had been sent away without tho pcopli being taken into tho confidence of thi promoters. There would have been les cause to complain if the petition had beei left in a public office. He did not knov yot what it contained. Mr Lysnar: Why did you not ask fo a copy ‘l Mr Sievwright: It was not my placo ti do so—you should havo taken the peopl into your confidence. (Applause). Con tinuing ho contended that the petition wa not a legal one, as there was no provisioi qualifying electors in outside districts But assuming that they had amalgama tion, Section 182 gave the Council powe to make subdivisions, to alter tho nutnbe of members, or make alterations in tki subdivisions. The Council might levy i rate that would swamp them. They should assume that Councillors would ac with equity, but still it was possible that i heavy liability might be put on outside districts. Thero were so mauy points, they should halt before rushing into amalgamation. They should uot have amalgamation without everything being fully considered, They should insist on having a poll. (Applause). It was as necessary as a poll was for raising a loan. Tho Act would need to be amended if they were to have the same privileges as Borough residents. He knew of no provision by which an outside district like this could force itself upon the borough ; the borough might seek an extension, but the Act should bo altered so as to give equal privileges to those coming in. Also there should be provision for graduated rating. (Applause.) Mr 11. Withers seconded the motion. An invitation to anyone to speak was not responded to until Mr Lysnar rose to move an amendment that this meeting approves of a commisssion being set up to deal with the question. He did so on account of the misconception, If Mr Sievwright desired to see the petition he eould easily have asked for it. The legal point raised by Mr Sievwright had been mot by tbe preparation of a deed embodying the terms of amalgamation. Mr DeLautour an I the Borough Solicitor had given their opinion in favor of its legality, Clause 8 gave them full protection in all expenditure. Before they were made liable for

future loans they must have a benefit, and had the right to vote. As to rating, he also claimed there was full protection. He himself would be the first to oppose amalgamation if he thought they would not be protected as to rates and loans. If they did not amalgamate they would never have better bridges. He said the bridges could be obtained for £SOOO, and that the cost upon each £SOO worth of

property would be only 4s. Who would object to that ? He wont on to refer to the subjects of sanitation, drainage, etc. They could make their own terms with the borough as to drainage, etc. Mr O'Connor : We'll havo the bridges. (Laughter.) Mr Lysnar : Yes, by getting amalgamation. These bogies—for they were bogies—about their liability on coming into the borough wore nothing. Next to Mr Joyce he was the largest ratepayer on the Whataupoko, and it was not likely that ho would favor amalgamation if he was not quite satisfied as to their position. When they came before the Commission

they could alter the boundaries as they liked. The only question as to the deed drawn up was as to whether it could be enforceable by law.

Mr Sievwright: Yes, that’s the question. Mr Lysnar : Well, do not take my opinion. I bold in my band the opinions of Mr DeLautour and Mr Chrisp, who say it can be enforced.

The speaker was continuing to explain the position, when someone gave a long drawn yawn that caused some laughter. Ur Lysuar said that he knew that that meeting was against amalgamation. Mr Griffen : Why didn’t you show the petition to us ? (Laughter.)

Mr Lysnar said that they had goneround to as many as they could. Voice : Not to those who were opposed to it. (Laughter.) Mr Lysnar said they had not gone to people they knew' were against it to ask them to sign. Voice : Why didn't you ? (Laughter.)

Another voice : Why didn't you try Mr Sievtvright'? (Lau; ht jr.) The Chairman : You had better let Mr Lysnar speak.

Voice : His time is up. (Laughter.) Mr Lysnar again.niiplaiad that the

petition was open to anyono to see. Mr Stafford said he was against tho amendment, hut to put it in order would second it pro forma. Mr Joyce wanted to know how M’’ Lysnar mado out that the rate on each £OOO would he only 4s, when the borough rate was now Is 9d. Mr Lysnar explained that that had reference to a special loan for the bridges. Mr Joyce said lie e-..uld not favor thidea of a deed. Unless they could g-> in oi their own free will he did not see how ii would act. There was nothing in tinMunicipal Corporations Act to show that amalgamation would be otherwise than voluntarily. He had read the Act through and could not see where Mr Lysnar got it about the rating. Mr Lysnar said that ,vas in tho Rating Act.

-Mr Joyce, continuing, said that there would he many expenses such as levels, etc. They had good roads on the Whataupoko, but amalgamation would probably mean that some of their money would go to the Haiti for its bad roads ; the Whataupoko would only havo one member. He would not object to amalgamation if he could sec that it would be beneficial. In time they would no doubt have amalgamation or a new borough -(applause)— but tln-re was time enough yet. As to tho bridges they were desirable, but they could wait awhile for the traffic requiring it. The Chairman gave the opinion that in such a question the referendum should be applied. (Applause.) As to special rating, lie liad never yet heard a legal opinion hearing on the point—tbt- borough could outvote them by two to one, and as far us he could see, they wotyd have to submit to tho majority. They might not do it, but expediency would favor it. If a card sharper came along and said, “ You know what ! am, but I will not cheat you,” would you play with him ? (Laughter.) As to the Commissioner, they had on one side a powerful advocate, a barrister, Mr Lysnar, and lie might make the Commissioner, who was in the position of a judge, believe that ho (Mr Lysuar) was rigiit. A voice : What about Mr Sievwright ? The Chairman said that Mr Sievwright might not have the opportunities, and in any case they could not expect him to go into the matter without paying him. As to legal opinions, they usually found that even in the Appeal Court tho judges differed. As to tho septic tanks, it was simply a matter of expense. Ho could not understand the feverish haste to rush into the arms of the borough. Tho way in which the borough values woro being put up would yet cause people to leavo the borough and come to tho Whataupoko. In conclusion, he held that there should be no coercion in regard to amalgamation, aud the people should have the right to say what they wanted. Mr Darton took exception to the Chairman’s remark as to rating, and said that borough values would tnalto no difference as rates there wero on the rental valuo. The Chairman said Mr Darton was partly right, but the values would bo capitalised, amounting to the same thing. Mr Stafford opposed amalgamation on the ground that the boundaries wero not satisfactory. Why was not Mr Lysnar more consistent ? He had had some of his property left out of the area. Mr Lysnar : Ho is willing to have them included at any time. Mr Stafford, continuing, said that ho hoped in time to have one revenue and spending body, but there were many expenses in the borough that wero not required in this district. They should consider the outside districts, and deal fairly with them in whatever they did. The long bow had been drawn in regard to tho petition. Promises had been inado which there was no right to make, and on this being found out people who had signed tho one petition had also signed tho counter potition, so that it was not right to say that tho potion in favor had a big majority. Mr Yardley said the Chairman was entitled to their thanks for tho fair way in which ho tried to put tho matter before them. Ho could not understand why Mr Lysnar, who had his valuable property in the borough, was so anxious for amalgamation. His property was already in tho borough, and whethor or not ho liked it, it must stay there. Why also was MiFrank Harris so anxious in the matter ? As to tho Chairman, hehad stood all sorts of abuse, and throughout had acted tho part of a judge, placing the matter as fairly as ho could before them. A big effort had been mado to work up a meeting that night, but apparently had not been very successful. Mr Lysnar, replying, quoted the sections of the Act, aud said he would leave it to the people present themselves to decide what it meant. Thoro was, he said, no room for judges to differ in the matter. Mr Joyce claimed that Mr Lysuar was not right, and then an interesting fire of comments took place on the question of legal opinions. “ I quote tho law,” said Mr Lysnar as a clincher. “ There are too many Acts in that book, I think," said Mr O'Connor. (Laughter.) “ Yes,” said Mr Lysnar, “ there are too many Acts in it for those who do not want amalgamation.” (Laughter.) A question arose as to the time being taken. Mr Darton said they all wanted to understand the question, and he suggested that Mr Lysnar should give a night to the question. Mr Lysnar said be was willing to do so. “What is the use of talking,” interjected Mr Stafford, “ We are not ripe for it.”

“Wo aro ripe for it —you arc losing £9OO a year now,” retorted Mr Lysnar. Mr Stafford : No. Mr Lysnar: Y r es. Mr Stafford : How ? Mr Lysnar wont on to explain that it was by what the County was getting from them. He would like to see that stopped. Mr Stafford: So would I. Mr Lysnar incidentally quoted Kaiti, whereupon, amidst laughter, interjections were made, “ I)o not class us with Kaiti.” The Chairman said he would like to be clear on the rating question. Supposing the borough borrowe'd £SOOO for such things as road machinery, traction engine, etc., could it not make the Whataupoko join in paying for them ? Mr Lysnar said that for such purposes they could not raise a special loan. Mr Joyce said that were exceptions, such as a library, and Mr Sievwright and others mentioned further exceptions.

Air Lysnar said that there were special exceptions, but in all these cases they would have the right to exercise a vote in, the matter. Air Joyce : Why do you want this matter forced upon us, when the Act says that it must he by a majority ? Air Lysnar said that the number required in favor was a fourth. Mr 1 Joyce said that some or the Kaiti “ vindicators ” for amalgamation were outside the boundary. Air Lysnar said that as far as he knew all who signed in favor were in the boundary set out. He went on to assure the ratepayers that they could rely on their interests being attended to, as in the Council at the present a uuniber of members were over-river residents, and in conjunction with himself he mentioned the names of other Councillors.

Mr Joyce said it was ridiculous t< try and use such arguments there, a: they k new better. What, be asked happened only the other day ? Voice : The Point. (Laughter.) Air Joyce said it had been shown the other-side influence predominated. Air Lysnar denied that that was so. Air Joyce said that the Point affair was all cut and dried, and Air Lysnar must admit it. (Laughter). Air Lysnar : Y'es, I do admit that. (Laughter;. Air Joyce : Why did you not have it on the Recreation Ground 1 ? (Applause.) Air Lysnar : Because I thought that the other was the best place. But I will give a contribution to serve the other ground. Air Joyce : You xvouid put it there at the expense of the public, so that you could go out of your door and gaze upon it. (Laughter and applause.) Mr Lysnar then continued his argument at some length, and the technical points were freely ventilated, .the

opinions given or quoted being freely canvassed. Mr Joyce questioned Air

Lvsnar’s interpretations of some sections ; Mr Sievwright. made an occatioiiiil interjection and Mr O'Connor, Mr Griffon, and others helped to g'ive things a merry turn by comments concerning tlie way in which lawyers differed. Mr Joyce pointed out that (he Harbor Board had had the opinion of Mr Bell and Sir Robert Stout in their favor, and yet had lost, their case, lithe running lire of interjections wlm'i set in the John Townley was not al lowed to escape a gentle knock, sonic one expressing the opinion that amalgamation would mean that the road district, would take over an additional share of the responsibility for the asset in possession of the Harbor Board. Mr Lysnar continued serenely through it- all, and at times got in some gr 1 counter-thrusts. ” < A smart dialogue ensued between the Chairman and Mr Lysnar in regard to the cost, of administration, Mr Lysnar declaring that the road district cost 27 per cent-, as against 10 per cent in the Borough. “That is absolutely incorrect,’' said the Chairman, and others expressed a doubt as to the statement.

Mr Lysnar said that their revenue for last year was £134, and was going into the figures further. “Surely you do not. want to (el! ns that, no allowance is to be made for the administration of the special loans, ” said (lie Chairman.-

“It is absurd,” said some one, and somebody else remarked that that was not the point before the meeting, and it, was allowed to pass. < 1 have made no promise,” said Mr Lysnar, in reply to the statement that, promises had boon held out-, “ excepting that within six months of amalgamation the bridges will lie started. I have gone that far. I shall do my best to see that the bridges are put in hand before then,”

The Chairman : Who will pay for them ?

Mr Lysnar: We will all pay for them, at the rate of Is in each £SOO. Mr Stafford 1 ; That is cheap enough.(Daughter.) Mr Lysnar : Yes, nobody should object to that.

Mr Stafford : No, no. In reply to those who said there wan no haste. Mr Lysnar said 1 that a Bill was on the verge of passing last ‘ses■smn, bringing them under ‘the control of tiie County. The Chairman said that it provided for town boards, and was the very tiling the Whataupoko wanted, while Mr Lysnar replied that it would bring them completely under the control of the County Council, an opinion which judging by the dissent, was not shared in by many present. A little argument as to special rates and what the borough would lie able to do then set in, tho Chairman hold-

ing a view in strong contradiction to that of Mr Lysnar. “ You are making mis-statements,” was the interesting point that had been reached by the Chairman, when Mr .Sievwright interposed to call attention to the position which he, as proposer of the motion, was occupying. “ 1 do not want to stop anyhod.j,” said Air Sievwright, “ but it is hardly fair to others that Mr Lysnar should have the reply and the reply again, while J, who moved the motion, have not yet been given an opportunity. The whole thing is out of order. You have no eight to allow Air Lysnar to make a fresh speech.”Air Lysnar I was speaking to the amendment-, i The Chairman said that lie had allowed Air Lysnar more latitude than lie would have allowed anyone e,sc, as i that gentleman had taken a lead in the movement, and he did nut wish to have it said that he had burked discussion. Air ’Lysnar said he had finished, and was only answering the question. In replying, Air Sievwright complk. mealed Mr Lysnar on the dogged peir?~

severance with which he fought out a question, a remark that was warmly applauded. But, continued the speaker, lie feared that in this matter Mr Lysnar was trying to lead them into a blind alley from which there would be no escape. lie (repeated that there was no power he knew of by which Uiq agreement of which Air Lysnar spoke could be made binding. The Council

could at any tme pass a resolution to make the whole district Hie rating area. As to bridges there was nothing to prevent them at any time making an arrangement with the borough. The question of amalgamation should Ixj decided by the people, and not by any. commission., Fortunately, it could noli be forced on them. Air .Stafford instanced the case of the Coronation memorial as an instance of the treatment that m ght lie expected.It was found that nearly all tile Councillors were located between the bridge and the Alasonic Hotel, and they had decided to put the band rotunda in that, dirty, stinking corner of the river. (Laughter and " Give it to them.”) The Chairman : You are out of order with such lemarks.

Air Stafford : I only want to show what they would do if they got the chance. (Hear, hear, and applause.) On being put to the meeting, the amendment was lost, those voting for being five, Messrs Lysnar, Sweet, Darton, Spr ingall, and Queen in.-

The motion was carried, ’there being warm applause on its being put. Then, on the motion, of Mr Stafford seconded by Air .Yardley, a motion was carried, instructing the Chairman* to for.ward a copy of the resolution t op' e Governor-in-Council,

Mr Lysnar : I would just like, to .s.vy, that whatever is done at this meeting will not have any legal eflect. (LaughAir Sievwright : Wo Want it to llave moral effect, (Applause.) Air Joyce : Not an immoral effect, (Laughter.) ; The meeting closed with a vote of thanks to the Chairman, moved by. Mr Sweet, seconded by Air Lysnar, A number remained while the storm was beating outside to discuss the subject of the Point, and an animated discustion of an informal nature was continuing as the Times reporter left for town. During the meeting showers of iiail pattered upon the iron roof of the band-shed, and at times the speakers could, he seen better than they could he heard.