SEPARATION DEBATE.

Evening Star, Issue 4194, 5 August 1876, Page 2

SEPARATION DEBATE.

Sir George Grey, in moving his Separation resolutions, observed that they were far more important than at first sight appeared. He trusted he would succeed in doing it in such a way as would place them in a favorable aspect before the House and the country—he could only say that if he did not succeed in doing so the fault would lay with himself and not with the matter he bad to bring under the notice of the House. The first resolution, "That, in the opinion of this House, the state of the Colony requires that its financial and constitutional arrangements should be reconsidered," consisted of two parts—the one relating to the finances of the Colony the other to the Constitution. Upon the first he would say but little. The Premier, the other evening, had said that which confirmed the resolution he had just read, and if they wanted any further evidence they had it in the Financial Statement, which complicated matters instead of simplifying them. When the Premier told the House that "our securities were unsaleable in the London market," it would have been a great and noble act on his part if he had added,.. "I took oharge of this country when it was in a state of considerable prosperity; I have

administered, its affairs during a period during which its staple products have been sold at unexampled nigh prices ; I have had untold millions of borrowed money placed at my disposal, and I ask you to trust to other hands to re-establish the Colony which I have plunged into this condition."—(Opposition cheers.) ; He would have admired the Premier if he had nobly and boldly made such a statement to the House—as it was he needed no further evidence to prove that the financial condition of the Colony was such that an immediate remedy must be conceived. That constitutional changes were required all admitted, but those proposed by the Government the country would not for a moment entertain—it would treat them with the scorn they deserved. They had, however, perhaps the first opportunity in the history of the Anglo-Saxon race to establish bytheir own intelligent action a Constitution which might last for all time. It had been objected to when he made recommendations of this kind that the remarks he made in the form of Government which existed at present were personal attacks. He had no intention in that direction, nor of casting odium or blame upon previous Secretaries-of-State or upon members of the Administration at Home or here, in saying the previous custom of administering affairs should no longer prevail, but that a different system | should be established. He could not be considered as making any personal remarks, thereforethesegentlemenwhohadwithabUity and integrity administered the affairs of the country when they heard him would believe that he had no desire to offend or say that which was illnatured or unbecoming, oi severe. He then proceeded to remark upon the past constitutional history of the Colony, When the Constitution was about to be con ferred on the Colony, he received a lettei from the Secretary of State to say that an elective Upper House would be a feature oi the new Constitution, which would have prevented much of the ills that had occurred to cs'ew Zealand ; but there was a change in the Home Administration, and then he received another letter to state that Hei Majesty's new advisers were desirous oi altering the Constitution, and one of the alterations was that the Upper House should not be elective. Changes have thus been nwde which the people never desired, and people were left in ignorance of a great deal that had been inflicted upon them until it was done. This had been done by tho Imperial Parliament and by successive Colonial Ministries, the result being the mutilated, contemptible Constitution undei which we lived, and on this mutilated Constitution the Government were attempting tc rear a series of petty institutions which he was certain they would not succeed ir

forcing on the country. He contended that it waa necessary to go to the people and get their assent to the foundation upon which we intend to build up our constitutions, to see that the foundation was good and strong and founded on the admiration and esteem of the people, who should be allowed to build up institutions which would take care of the out-districts. They had heard a great deal from the Premier about Abolition, and he might say that in attaining the vote he did , on the resolutions of the member for Waikato, it was owing, in a great measure, to the magic word "Abolition," and to the cry of the out districts which they had repeated ad nauseam. What was the abolition they had heard so much of—what was to be abolished ? Was it the great expenditure of the monstrous civil service; was it the corrupt Native Department ? No! None of those things had been abolished; but they had abolished the Provinces. Did it mean that the carcases of the Provinces had been dragged out of the way and buried out of sight because they had been shirked and robbed of the considerable funds and powers which belonged to them? He repeated, that under the proposals of the Government nothing was to be abolished ho would go iurther, and Bay nothing was to be created. They had destroyed but could not rebuilt—at least every effort they made was done with a palsied and uncertain hand. He asked why there had not been a change in the constitution of the Upper House, which, though composed of disinterested gentlemen, did not represent the country. Neither did the Lower House, or those resolutions he was now proposing would be carried. Otago and Auckland contained respectively one-third and onefourth of the entire population of the country and these Provinces, which contained the larger proportion of the people, wero to a man, ho m,ght say, in favor of these resolutions; ye 5 they would be overborne by a small majority, and by what means ? By giving three members to Taranaki, three to Hawke's Bay, and so forth. Another blot in the Constitution was the Byßtem of placing members of the civil service in the Upper House, and making them Ministers—men whom no constituency would return. Such a system must beget subserviency among those elected, and they had an instance in the case of a complacent civil servant who had been called into the Cabinet, who had been selected by the Premier as bis own premier without consultation with the constitaenoiej, and who

laid down his office when hiti master returned —a proceeding unparalleled and an insult to the country. He referred to the correspon- ' dence between "Dear Vogel" and "Dear Pollen " as a correspondence which was a disgrace to the Premier. His boasting that he "did not pretend to say he had been economical" was a personal boast made regardless of public interest when many a struggling mother in New Zealand was thinking how she could provide for her children; and his expenditure was extravagant and the antithesis to the example of the great and patriotic men who represented the American States. Their care should not be to create the civil service into a great governing body, as warthreatened to be done- by civil .-servants being already in the Ministry ; it was that which they ought to abolish that which had a life, and that life most pernicious to New. Zealand* He believed the resolutions he held in his hand would command universal respect and esteem; he believed the fact of gentlemen representing more than half the entire population of tbo Colony meeting together and agreeing to make mutual sacrifices in money and various other respects, as were made in these resolutions, would be regarded as worthy ofbeing recorded and handed down as an instance of patriotism, worthy of encouragement and future following. It would be seen that the constitutional changes proposed were propositions which ought to be put before the House and the Colony. The struggle was one of the civilisation, culture, and happiness of numbers against wealth, degradation, and the welfare of the few- of freedom against despotism of a very bad kind. They proposed to maintain the unity of the Colony; however they proposed that there should be two States aB it were two local Governments—one for each Island. The people of New Zealand were well capable of framing a Constitution better than that

which now existed, and what right had the Ministry to prevent the people from choosing what form of Government there should be? The people would judge wisely, they might rely upon it, for their own* future good and welfare. Dif-. fering widely as the two islands in situation, climate, products, and population they Would do wisely to have two separate Governments framed by those who had toiled in, the country-and not by the tribe- of strangers that had been introduced. The North Island could 1 do better by governing its own affairs, and nothing could be fairer than- to make the land fund the general estate." While promoting civilisation and culture better than could be done by a great civil service "their scheme would also make saleable securities that were now unsaleable. The nature of the Federal Government was only indicated. Those with him did not seek -to impose their "will on : -Nev Zealand —they left-.the details to be decided when .the two islander formed-their own Government and they gave unlimited "power." As to "the proposed, seats of :Gpyernment, there were recommendations amdttnt-

ing to pledges that those voting for .them would give effect to them. The proposal to make Christchurch the capital of the South Island was one of extraordinary without scruple of demur ; it had "been acqniesced in; but even that was not to" limit the powers of the inhabitants to decide. ; What could be more noble than to make the land fund of:the -Middle Jsland; - the whole Colony! He denied that the Natives in the neighborhood of the King Country were enamored of the,, Native policy of the Government, •which the Natives in those districts strongly denounced. Those with him did not contemplate the revival of the • Provehces in the-shape in which they had existed, and this was somewhat in contrast to the conduct of the Government, who, while robbing and destroying the Provinces, sought to set up a Province in a rich district of the North Island giving to a barbarous race all the powers they took away from the rest of the Colony. In the North they, felt that their interests were imperilled by the present state of things and every day made it worse. If they were not specially allowed the management of their own affairs they would not be ablft to take them over because the difficulties would be too great for them to face, and the reason was that the feeling of the two Islands on the land question was so different. In the North runs were broken up so that there were hundreds. of families where in the South one man held the land. They felt strongly that the youth of the North Island had the right to have such openings made for them, but they did not desire to interfere

with interests in other parts of the country, which would be left to manage their own. He continued by referring to the part he had taken in the past and elsewhere iu framing constitutions. He contended that the righteousness, justice, and adaptability of this recommendation had never been questioned, and he claimed for his party the desire and determination to prevent the minority from oppressing the majority. Whatever might be the form of government adopted by the majority ef the inhabitants after the question had been fairly submitted to them in the manner which his resolutions admit of they would unhesitatingly conform to the wishes of the majority and do their utmost to make them successful. On the other hand they would do their utmost to resist any attempt to deprive the people of that right of choosing their own form of government, and to resist any attempts to take from them their representative institutions. Unless they themselves by their representatives consent to that being done, and unless by their representatives in their own particular legislatures they desire to be deprived of that right, by all the means that law, justice, and right permitted, they would attempt to attain legitimately and justly the rights to which they were entitled. In an eloquent peroration he said his object was not to obtain office; but let him see the boon he was contending for bestowed upon the people of New Zealand and with happiness he would retire in peace for the remainder of his life with a claim to the gratitude of every man who lived in the country. (Loud cheers.)

Sir J. Vogel said he could scarcely understand from the remarks of the hon. gentleman what were the proposals for a new Constitution, although he professed to explain. Indeed, the resolutions on the notice paper seemed to give all the information the hon. gentleman proposed to afford. When he read the resolutions of which the hj <n. gentleman had given notice, he confessed that he had no inconsiderable amount of difficulty in comprehending them. They had been many weeks in preparation, and he had thought, therefore, that they would be a literary production and net a reproach to those who had constructed them. It would have been more respectful to the HOUS3 to have taken care to construct the sentences more carefully. Reviewing the speech as it was, he denied that New Zealand was in such difficulties as 'were represented—difficulties which, if they did arise, were provoked and aggravated by those whoso prejudices carried theinaway. Any passing influence shared in common with other Colonies by a fall in the price of its staple product was no reproach to its condition. Doubtless there had bven large expenditure since he was in office, but the results were visible from end to rnd of the Colony in works, p.".wu:stiou, av:-:l tl-.o increrwud value ot lan«l. On iliai point ho was content to abide by the venact of the House, the country, acd those who cuine after, to say if that expenditure had

been a vise one and for the benefit jof the country.- (Che ere.) It wm insinuated that some one else was required to bring the Colony to its prosperity—that. they were to suppose that someone else was the hon. member himself; buthe {fcir Julius) thovght in the course of the hon. member's speech it must have suggested itself to the hon member that many members, would hesitate to vote—would, as some had siid, cut off their right hands rather than assist in placing the hon. member at the head of the Government. —(Cres of "Name.") It was his duty to be very plain on this occasion, and to the hon. gentlemen who cried out so loudly he said it could not be expected that the hon. member for the Thames should be at liberty _to. T . use most„insulting remarks .towards Ministers and the House itself witlroSf receiving a reply. He was ready to admit the hon. gentleman had done the "State good service in_the. past, but .that .on,, that account and inßultS- J "wTßre to go on unanswered was not complimentary to the hon;-gentleman. Wlile - the hon. gentleman did dtoeupy a leading position in the Colony he "was never easy unless in the midst of those disputes, in which he delighted to revel. Intne past ie had beencontinually quarrelling either with, the Imperial Government or its representatives, and this kind of thing was not at all required now. Wo were getting oh very comfortably.. The Imperial Government did not desire much'of us, and we were not making unreasonable demand upon the Imperial Government ;l>ut if the lion, member for the Thames got into power there would very soon be an ill-feeling generated. ■-■ What has drawn the hon. mem* ber back into public life but the hope that he would be able to satisfy his grudges against the Colonial offices? (No, no.) Then he had spoken upon the question of the constitution of the Upper House, as he generally managed to do each time he/made a speech, and his remarks with reference to that body were as undeserved as they were uncalled for. He (Sir Julius)

had no hesitation in saying that during the last two or three years the Upper Houßehad been of good service to the Colony. He had had on several occasions to say severe things about the Upper House, and when: one had carefully prepared schemes and got them jbxough the Lower House and then fotfnd them rejected in another place, it was.-aot unnatural that some little annoyance should be felt. But he would say this, and in'saying it he did not Apeak in the nature of/an apology, that judged of by results theCegislative Council-had done a Very great deal of good'"for the country by improving and checking hasty legislation, ft* might be that in time to come thereinignt bemodifications but it w^snot-fchenTiis purpose 'to suggest the desirableness of such athfeg nor'tosay - it was. necessary. -What he nad to do that . evening was to deny the general assertion that the Upper House had been disastrous to the interests of Then tliehph. membefmust talk abbut ■-** a

corrupt uovernmem;.' inis wftß.anotner subject which must be introduced, into every speech ,he-made, and in doing jbo, kat it .setsmed to him (Sir J. Vogel),! t)iat,,he.Llnsulted not only the Government, members cf the House who supported, the Government. Why did he not bringrforward instances of corruption ? t .why" did* he'not move a vote of censure; or .carry out his threat in bringing in a BUI of impeachment against-Ministers ? That was .the legiiiil&te way, and such a course could at least be understood. / s to the reference to his (Sir Julius's) personal : expenses whilst visiting England in the public of the Colony he should not discuss it. .Possibly it might be found on the records that his expenses had not been so large as had been allowed on previous occasions to other people, but that would be for the House to consider and he should not discuss it.—(Hear, hear.) .It would be out of place for him to'do so: "As to the services which he had rendered or attempted to render to "the Colony during the past few years he could only say that if they were not appreciated he had wasted mauy valuable years of his life. He had been exceedingly sorry to find that the hon. member had sufficient bad taste to attack personally a member of the Government who was not in tho House, and who had ho opportunity of replying. He (Sir Julius) was prepared to characterise the conduct of the hon. member for the Thames—it was the reverse of courageous or brave. It appeared as if he hid a deep-rooted aversion to every public «m.ti in the Colony but himself, and he seemed to think the desire to gain > money was the beginning and end of their existence as public men. He (Sir Julius) regretted exceedingly to see such a spirit, for Buchan idea was not only exceedingly ignoble but exceedingly mistaken. There were a great many men in New Zealand doing their best for the Colony, and he Would say this : that any man who tried to serve the public would personally be a great loser by it. man who had sufficient abilities to attain a leading position in public affairs, would do very much better if he applied those abilities to the furthering of his private interests. The comments upon J)r Pollen were exceedingly unfair. With regard to his resignation of the Premiership, it was very well understood what course would be taken when he (Sir J. Vogel) returned to the Colony; but he might say that he had. requested Dr. Pollen to retain the Premiership, buthe had declined, and had askedh-'m (Sir J. Vogel) to resume the position. To hold up his colleague to ridicule and prejudice was ungenerous. Each successive administration for a long series of years had acknowledged the great services of the Hon. Dr. Pollen, and* he would add this : that it would be much better for the Colony if there were a few more men of the stamp of Dr. Pollen in the Colony—men who could not only talk but act, bear in mind the interests of the country, and not make flashy, showy speeches; for no public man in the Colony had more thoroughly won his way into the hearts of the people. The hon. member then had spoken of the people building up their own institutions, but what more could the people do than they had done ? There had been a new Parliament elected, and elected solely upon the Constitutional question; and if the people did not express their wishes through their representatives 'who had charge of their interests, how could they do so at all? Were they as the representatives of New Zealand having charge of her interests to abandon the present Constitution without knowing what was to replace it ? (Opposition,cheers.) He presented the Opposition with the laughter his remarks provoked, but the Government had a perfect knowledge of what they proposed should be provided. Neither did they deprive the people of their Constitution after those changes were made. He was not prepared to admit that because they were taking charge of certain departments which the Provinces bad been carrying on, and because they were localising the other de partments and other charges, they were altering the Constitution of the country. The real difference between their proposals . and those of the hon. member was that he proposed to give to the two islands Parliaments, with entire powers, with small exceptions, and the entire revenues, without coming to any clear understanding as to-what* the .Federal Government should be in the future ; while the Government divested tiieciaelves, as far ai it y..t= possible, of their powers in favor of the local Government bouiea. They proprstd to give the districts the power which had been exercised by the Provinces, in olden time**

and/these Counties would he more important in. power and wealth than were the Province < originally. The hon. member in making this crude proposition for Separation seemed to proceed upon the wrong assumption, that each Island represented a distinct community of interests, and that the several aggregates of people were bound together by common ideas and feelings ; but on the face of it this was very abaurd. If the hor.. member thought the Provinces of the. North Island were united in their .interests and totally differing from the Provinces of the South Island he made a great mistake. For instance there was far more sympathy between the Province of Canterbury: and the Province of Wellington than there was between the Province of Canterbury and the Frovince of Otago.—( v o, no) and (hear, hear). Hon gentlemen might say "n0,n0," but it was the case, and why? Simply because Otago assumed to have the right to dictate to the whole of the Middle Island. Again Nelson and Wellington were more closely allied than were Nelson and Otago, and the same thing applied to the West Coast of the Middle Island. Then if he went to the North Island what did he find t That the inhabitants of a very large extent of territory north of Auckland had complained very loudly that from first to j last they had been entirely neglected by the Provincial Government of Auckland, and they, appealed to the General Government for ai4 and assistance, how many of these members coming from the north of Auckland would the member for the Thames carry into the lobby with him ? (A voice: The division wilT show.) The hon. gentlemen ought to know; if they have any regard for the interests of their constituents they will not.

Sir George Grey : Ido not know that. If they have any regard for the interests of their constituents tney will do it. (Opposition cheers.)

Sir J. Vogel: The remark he made about Auckland, referred in a lesser degree to Otago. The Superintendent of that Province did not expect that he would carry all the Otago members into the lobby with him. Mr Macandrew : Almost all.

Sir Julius Vogel: But how many of those members would go into the lobby happy in the knowledge that the motion would not be carried, and that the leaders of the Opposition would not have the Government of New Zealand. He was perfectly convinced that when-the people of Otago came to know and realise the full effect of the proposals put before the House by the Government, there would be a very great revulsion of feeling in those parts of the Province which at present were the strongholds of the hon. member for Dunedin. He then referred to the remarks of Sir George Grey in reference to land legislation, and deprecated the holding out of promises in respect of cutting up of runs in order, .to .catch votes. The land question should'not be a party question at all. It ..was a very difficult and .delicate matter to deal with, and members would have to devote their best attention to ibj. without studying the interests of party. It was a question upon which men mign conscientiously differ without accusing each other of impure motives. He was not going to make vague promises as to what- was to be done, nor would the hon. member do so if he were in a similar position. The Government were possessed of the idea, and he believed that on the whole these would be found satisfactory. He. twitted those Provincialises who last year were so rabid, on their inconsistency, and said that by bringing forward these resolutions they had shown that last year they had properly estimated the feelings of the country. J hey had asked for delay on the ground that the feeling of the com) try generally was against abolition, and thai the people would defend Provincialism almost with their blood ; but this year, by bringing forward such resolutions as these, they admitted thut their view had been wrong and the view of, the Government right. Wh/ had the hon. member for the Thames and his followers admitted this? The resolutions had not been explained, and really there was very considerable doubt as to what they meant. It seemed to him that before such resolutions could be given effect to there must be Imperial legislation, and that this action was taken in order to bring pressure to bear on the Imperial Government. Why was not more information given on the subject; who ■ were to be Governors ; what was to be the system of government; who were to be the heads of the new Governments ? »

A Member: These are matters of detail; ask Pollen.—(Roars of laughter.) Sir J. Yogel said he paused for a reply, and he considered it a fair question for him to put.

Sir George Grey: Perhaps I ought to anawer the question. I will give the hon. member the earliest notice on the subiect in orHer that he may offer himself as a candidate.—(Opposition cheers.) Sir J. Vpgel went on to say that if he understood the resolutions aright it would appear there was to be no Colony, but two Provinces. The Colony wastogive upits revenues and receive what the Provinces might choose to dole out to them ; but there must first be a repudiation of all liabilities. It was not sufficient for the Provinces to say: " We will give you this and that." The Colony at present possessed a revenue, and certain engagements had been entered into. He went on to characterise the scheme as crude and existing only in the minds of a few hon. memoers; and pointed out that the hon. member who was responsible for the resolution had precluded the possibility of its being discussed, because he knew nothing whatever of the matter except that there were to be two Provinces, and had brought forward nothing for debate. He asked members to adopt it on his responsibility that it was a good scheme, but he could not give members an opportunity for judging for themselves. Such a preposterous idea as that the Colony was to sacrifice everything and trust to what it could get from the two Provinces—themselves placed in somewhat difficuT; circumstance—he hardly ever heard of. He could not conceive how such a plan was to bo carried out. Could such an idea have a place anywhere but in a mind more visionary than practical! The hon. member would make parts greater than i the whole, and the whole subordinate to its two parts. If it was to be earned out on the basis of the present representation Auckland would have eighteen votes, as compared with sixteen for the rest of the North Island. Was the rest of the Island prepared to accept that position? Otago would have twenty, one votes, against twenty-nine for the rest of the Middle Island. He repeated that those members who voted for Separation voluntarily abandoned tie Compact of 1856. They mist bear m mind that, in supporting these resolutions, they Were inviting the House to reconsider that compact. He reiterated that the essential ditferencobetween the two plans was t* at the General Government proposed to ienounce all the powers it possibly could get rid of, and give to towns and country diatr eta the power of local self-government —in fact it would bestow upon them pretty well all the powers which had been enjoyed by the Provincial Governments, and rembve all intermediate bodies between the County Councils and the General Governments The propositions of the Or<jK>-.sit;';"i hc-v,.,- ;• wee to hand ever thes. 1 to t«:, ;..., !' Irovinced. After civil servants from the imputation l ! cait upon them, he stated that returns w*« b«ag prepared whicfc wottH show

that the civil servants were worse paid and harder worked than the civil servants in any other Colony. They were asked to conaider whether or not they would carry out Abolition, which had been decreed, or stop short in their work, and re erect the Provinces into more powerful governments which should be intermediate between the General Government and the local bodies. As he understood the feeling of the country it was entirely opposed to such a proposal, but was in favor of the separation of 'the county district* from the towns, giving to each the largest possible amount of local government with no intermediate form of government between it and the Colony. Hp hoped that a large majority of the House would support what he believed to be the wishes of the great majority of the people of the Colony.—(Cheers.) After Messrs Reynolds and Tribe had spoken the House adjourned at ten minutes to I a.m.

(Per Press Agency.)

On meeting at 2.30 yesterday afternoon the debate was resumed by Mr Rees, who spoke up s to the usual adjournment at 5.30 p.m., and resumed at 7.30, Bpeaking till half-paßt nine. Messrs Wason, Lusk, and Thomson followed in support of the resolutions ; and Mr Fitzroy against them.